Then why are there all those stories about how a guy lost over 1millon in isk. Im just saying. Ill admit i never played eve and i hear its a great game but im not saying u lose all your shit in eve.
But when talking harsh death penalty players have argued being looted and perma death are great ways to go. Im just saying if that happens some players just dont have to time to get there shit back that takes them 3-5 months to get.
I didnt mean to make it seem this is normal in eve although i hear it does happen. . I just meant if that stuff does happen some people dont have the time to do what took them along time to do once all over again.
Then why are there all those stories about how a guy lost over 1millon in isk. Im just saying. Ill admit i never played eve and i hear its a great game but im not saying u lose all your shit in eve.
But when talking harsh death penalty players have argued being looted and perma death are great ways to go. Im just saying if that happens some players just dont have to time to get there shit back that takes them 3-5 months to get.
I didnt mean to make it seem this is normal in eve although i hear it does happen. . I just meant if that stuff does happen some people dont have the time to do what took them along time to do once all over again.
Most of the time you get scams and corp/alliance thefts but only if your stupid. You play wise and only trust those people who you have known for years in game and you will be ok 90% of the time. The guys I fly with I know will not rip me off or steal my stuff. And the same goes for those that I have flown with in the past.
I have in the past lost everything in Eve but over time built it all back up again. And in the process it made me a better player and taught me some good lessons. For me games like WoW just do not give me the same buzz when I pvp. PvP in WoW is meh died again respawn try for the flag again.
PvP in Eve is alot more intense and adrenaline pumping. Because not only is your ship and character life on the line but that of your fleet as well, and in that one battle could mean you loosing your sov over a system which starts a cascade and breaks an alliance. Without consequence or the ability to control your envrioment within a MMO then PvP has no meaning and you may as well play on a PvE server. Which is one reason I liked DAoC realm based PvP and still think nothing can match it for a land based fantasy MMO.
I played a game with compounding skill loss system on death. Everything was lootable, and that was the least of your worries. You could actually be kidnapped and held prisoner. It's an adrenaline rush when you're a lone pirate boarding a military vessel. You know that if you fail to complete your agenda then you are going ot be taken and thrown into the brig. I've never actually gotten such an adrenaline rush from any other game before. Some people just want to risk somethign when they play.
Look at it like this... Some people play Texas Hold'em at the bar for free. Other people go to a casino and risk real money.
"I am not in a server with Gankers...THEY ARE IN A SERVER WITH ME!!!"
Look at it like this... Some people play Texas Hold'em at the bar for free. Other people go to a casino and risk real money.
I look a it like this:
If I'm playing for free, I can just focus on having fun, go all out against anyone, etc. Win or lose, I'm having a good time, and a loss does not impact on my future ability to play.
If I'm risking real money, instead of focusing on having fun, I have to focus on not losing. Be more conservative, avoid calling bluffs unless I'm absolutely certain, perhaps even flat out refusing to play against someone I know is better than me. In my case, focusing so much on winning means I stop having fun. Plus, losing can make me unable to keep playing, perhaps for an extended time period.
So, it's obvious where I stand. Implement harsh death penalties and I either don't start playing in the first place or get out of the game as soon as the penalties actually hit me. It's why I don't play EVE; I like most things about that game, but would only consider actually paying for it if most of the death penalty was removed - which most likely will be never, since the death penalty is a core EVE concept.
Look at it like this... Some people play Texas Hold'em at the bar for free. Other people go to a casino and risk real money.
I look a it like this:
If I'm playing for free, I can just focus on having fun, go all out against anyone, etc. Win or lose, I'm having a good time, and a loss does not impact on my future ability to play.
If I'm risking real money, instead of focusing on having fun, I have to focus on not losing. Be more conservative, avoid calling bluffs unless I'm absolutely certain, perhaps even flat out refusing to play against someone I know is better than me. In my case, focusing so much on winning means I stop having fun. Plus, losing can make me unable to keep playing, perhaps for an extended time period.
So, it's obvious where I stand. Implement harsh death penalties and I either don't start playing in the first place or get out of the game as soon as the penalties actually hit me. It's why I don't play EVE; I like most things about that game, but would only consider actually paying for it if most of the death penalty was removed - which most likely will be never, since the death penalty is a core EVE concept.
Then you are a "free poker" player, and that is fine. Some of us actually enjoy risk, and a bit of an adrenaline rush when things get hectic.
"I am not in a server with Gankers...THEY ARE IN A SERVER WITH ME!!!"
Yeah for the most part people want to have fu in a game both hardcore people and casual players, but there is an issue here which has come to light in mmos right now. That isssue is that with the increased population of gamers in mmos compared to, before mmos became so popular more poeple that find risking or difficulty in a gaame to fustrate them reducing thheir fun as a side effect. THis means that the difficulty as well as harsh penalties of older games did not suit these newer more numerous playerbase making the games becoming more easy and as such fun for those that layed them on average. Now you have all of the older gamers that enjoyed a challenge, risk, as well as penalties in the game who find the mmos we have not as enjoyabel as the older mmos were. As such they voice their desire for mmos that cater to them in difficulty, penalty, and risks so they can once more enjoy there time in games they pay for.
Difficulty - Whats the point of playing something that is too easy? If their is no challenge, then it would be mind numbing to me.
Death Penalty - I prefer having one that will set you back say 15-30 minutes of play time, thats not too harsh imo. It makes it to where you pay attention more, and to where you are just not dying to gate back to bind to sell or logoff or whatever...Also when their is no death penalty, people tend to just do stupid things and don't care, from my experience.
I tend to get more involved/immersed in games that are challenging and have a death penalty, verse games that are easy and have no penalty, I just don't find myself caring if I die, and 'ranger gating' to bind to log out quickly etc..
...The difficulty involved with popping a wheelie, maintaining a stoppie, doing back flips off the bike while it's running, and other incredibly eye pleasing tricks are FAR BEYOND what the virtual environment can or will ever provide you...
I strongly disagree. For instance, a virtual environment can provide you with the problem of proving the "Riemann Hypothesis". That task is far more difficult than the one you presented.
Come back and tel me MMOs can be more difficult. And fyi, i cannot do half the shit he is doing in that video; partially because I am scared, but mainly because I have NO WHERE NEAR his amount of control.
Dude, we get it. You're a super cool bike guy who's harder core than the rest of us. That doesn't change the fact that not everyone has a ricer and a 1/4-mile of track to go dick around on 24/7, especially not on a moment's notice during lunch or late in the evening.
There's nothing lifethreatening about building a house of cards, but the penalty for failure is massive and, for some, the rush of adding each card can be just as great if not greater than what some dude on his VCR500KTHX is experiencing during a wheelie.
You don't get a rush from video games, but others do. All you're really showing here is a lack of ability to understand another person's perspective or point of view. Your follow up comments show you really can't understnad it no matter how it's explained.
My thoughts exactly. It sounds more like the OP is trying to assert himself as a "cool guy" amongst his gaming peers more than making an actual point.
I hate to break it to you cool guy. No matter how many wheelies you do. You are still a gaming geek
...The difficulty involved with popping a wheelie, maintaining a stoppie, doing back flips off the bike while it's running, and other incredibly eye pleasing tricks are FAR BEYOND what the virtual environment can or will ever provide you...
I strongly disagree. For instance, a virtual environment can provide you with the problem of proving the "Riemann Hypothesis". That task is far more difficult than the one you presented.
Come back and tel me MMOs can be more difficult. And fyi, i cannot do half the shit he is doing in that video; partially because I am scared, but mainly because I have NO WHERE NEAR his amount of control.
Dude, we get it. You're a super cool bike guy who's harder core than the rest of us. That doesn't change the fact that not everyone has a ricer and a 1/4-mile of track to go dick around on 24/7, especially not on a moment's notice during lunch or late in the evening.
There's nothing lifethreatening about building a house of cards, but the penalty for failure is massive and, for some, the rush of adding each card can be just as great if not greater than what some dude on his VCR500KTHX is experiencing during a wheelie.
You don't get a rush from video games, but others do. All you're really showing here is a lack of ability to understand another person's perspective or point of view. Your follow up comments show you really can't understnad it no matter how it's explained.
My thoughts exactly. It sounds more like the OP is trying to assert himself as a "cool guy" amongst his gaming peers more than making an actual point.
I hate to break it to you cool guy. No matter how many wheelies you do. You are still a gaming geek
Pot calling the kettle black?
"I am not in a server with Gankers...THEY ARE IN A SERVER WITH ME!!!"
...The difficulty involved with popping a wheelie, maintaining a stoppie, doing back flips off the bike while it's running, and other incredibly eye pleasing tricks are FAR BEYOND what the virtual environment can or will ever provide you...
I strongly disagree. For instance, a virtual environment can provide you with the problem of proving the "Riemann Hypothesis". That task is far more difficult than the one you presented.
Come back and tel me MMOs can be more difficult. And fyi, i cannot do half the shit he is doing in that video; partially because I am scared, but mainly because I have NO WHERE NEAR his amount of control.
Dude, we get it. You're a super cool bike guy who's harder core than the rest of us. That doesn't change the fact that not everyone has a ricer and a 1/4-mile of track to go dick around on 24/7, especially not on a moment's notice during lunch or late in the evening.
There's nothing lifethreatening about building a house of cards, but the penalty for failure is massive and, for some, the rush of adding each card can be just as great if not greater than what some dude on his VCR500KTHX is experiencing during a wheelie.
You don't get a rush from video games, but others do. All you're really showing here is a lack of ability to understand another person's perspective or point of view. Your follow up comments show you really can't understnad it no matter how it's explained.
My thoughts exactly. It sounds more like the OP is trying to assert himself as a "cool guy" amongst his gaming peers more than making an actual point.
I hate to break it to you cool guy. No matter how many wheelies you do. You are still a gaming geek
Pot calling the kettle black?
1. I don't assert myself as anything
2. I embrace my inner gaming geek. I don't tell people I go to the gym to press weights before I hit the clubs picking up supermodels.
^I've played EvE Online and still do once in a while extensively. I've also played Final Fantasy XI for...too long, and Lineage 2. Hell, I had a permared on Lineage 2. XI and L2 were back when I was younger, had no bike (or balls), and more importantly, had a lot of spare time.
It just seems like ppl want to cry for the sake of crying. EvE Online is EvE Online, if people want death penalities, go play that. But then you have a bunch of flame posts going "OMFG WHY GAMEZ SO EZ NOW?!?!?!!". I dunno? Maybe because the majority of the population is like ME that don't have 2 hours to waddle through monsters while gearless to pick up their corpse in order to go back to leveling.
And whoever said you learn through death penaltiies in video games: no you don't. I used to play fighters competitively against a training dummy (ie. training modes) where they do ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. You create the challenge yourself; whether it's to create a combo ex video, get a 99/100 execution rate on some stupid long dust loop *COUGH* Sol Badguy, or if you're insane like Diago, you just practice parrying Chun Li's super from third strike. The only thing a death penalty does in video games is it kicks casuals out, ie. the MAIN $$$$ SUBs, of the game.
Also, I realized my example is actually pretty stupid because you cannot even compare the two. There are no HP bars, or combat logs in real life. Among the stunters I hang out with, we all realize that in order to become better stunters, we HAVE to make mistakes. In order for a racer, athlete, stunt rider, whatever, to realize where the limit is, they need to go past it. Going past it involves accidents...but sometimes may very well give you a higher limit. In video games, you KNOW your limit, you've got the bars, you've got the data. Tell me, where on my helmet shield does it tell me the maximum lean angle or the max amount of torque I should apply before causing a high/low side? Better yet, tell me where or who is going to tell me exactly how much % of throttle and brake I should apply for an infinite burnout? Or the one thing I still can't do yet: how much throttle, brake, and lean do I have to use in order to perform a J drift stop without flipping with the bike?
I'm pretty sure the majority of this community won't understand; only the ones who are adrenaline junkies or participate in extreme sports will.
I'm pretty sure many of us do understand. You're basically saying that you prefer the rush of a real life "risk vs. reward" scenario, such as pulling stunts on a motorcycle where the injuries/damage can be very real and very lasting.
And, compared to that, you find the idea of DPs in MMOs to be pointless because they just can't compare to the risk of screwing up on a stunt and splitting your skull open.
That when you're playing a game you don't want to feel that same kind of "risk" in losing or failing at something because you already get that in real life.
To that I offer you this: Not everyone is an adrenaline junky in real life. So, for you to say in essence, "I don't enjoy DPs or high risk in games because I get it in real life so I don't understand why anyone else feels differently..." well.. if you look at it objectively, you are projecting an extremely egocentric point-of-view. You're judging everyone else's point-of-view based entirely on your own, based on an assumption that yours is "right" and those who disagree "don't know real risk because they're not out pulling stunts on a motorcycle like you are".
It's quite possible there are people - and I'd even bet money there are, even if you don't know them personally - who are adrenaline junkies who do enjoy having that feeling of high risk translated - as well as it can be - into a video game setting, simply because they get off on that kind of feeling, in whatever form it is presented.
Your personal preferences, activities and perceptions are your own... Some may share them. Others won't. That you seem to be rather aggressively and judgmentally pushing your personal views on the matter on everyone else is, frankly, arrogant and really not the basis for a reasonable discussion or debate. You have this very obvious "I'm right and who ever doesn't agree just doesn't understand what it's like to be an adrenaline junky" attitude that comes across in every post you make on the topic. Frankly, I sense a degree of self back-patting every time you bring it up.
As for the "I don't have 2 hours..." remark. I'll give you the same response I give everyone else who argues from their personal circumstances. First, your personal circumstances do not make you special or entitled. They make you just like every other gamer out there with their own sets of personal circumstances. Second, there are others who do have the time to spend on such activities, and they are every bit as deserving of an experience they enjoy as you are of one you enjoy. Because you have an enjoyment of real-life risk taking does not place you or your preferences above those who don't... however much you seem to think so.
You don't enjoy a high risk/reward ratio or harsh DPs in MMORPGs... fine. Seek out games that don't have them. There are plenty on offer. No one's stopping you. Problem solved.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
^I've played EvE Online and still do once in a while extensively. I've also played Final Fantasy XI for...too long, and Lineage 2. Hell, I had a permared on Lineage 2. XI and L2 were back when I was younger, had no bike (or balls), and more importantly, had a lot of spare time.
It just seems like ppl want to cry for the sake of crying. EvE Online is EvE Online, if people want death penalities, go play that. But then you have a bunch of flame posts going "OMFG WHY GAMEZ SO EZ NOW?!?!?!!". I dunno? Maybe because the majority of the population is like ME that don't have 2 hours to waddle through monsters while gearless to pick up their corpse in order to go back to leveling.
And whoever said you learn through death penaltiies in video games: no you don't. I used to play fighters competitively against a training dummy (ie. training modes) where they do ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. You create the challenge yourself; whether it's to create a combo ex video, get a 99/100 execution rate on some stupid long dust loop *COUGH* Sol Badguy, or if you're insane like Diago, you just practice parrying Chun Li's super from third strike. The only thing a death penalty does in video games is it kicks casuals out, ie. the MAIN $$$$ SUBs, of the game.
Also, I realized my example is actually pretty stupid because you cannot even compare the two. There are no HP bars, or combat logs in real life. Among the stunters I hang out with, we all realize that in order to become better stunters, we HAVE to make mistakes. In order for a racer, athlete, stunt rider, whatever, to realize where the limit is, they need to go past it. Going past it involves accidents...but sometimes may very well give you a higher limit. In video games, you KNOW your limit, you've got the bars, you've got the data. Tell me, where on my helmet shield does it tell me the maximum lean angle or the max amount of torque I should apply before causing a high/low side? Better yet, tell me where or who is going to tell me exactly how much % of throttle and brake I should apply for an infinite burnout? Or the one thing I still can't do yet: how much throttle, brake, and lean do I have to use in order to perform a J drift stop without flipping with the bike?
I'm pretty sure the majority of this community won't understand; only the ones who are adrenaline junkies or participate in extreme sports will.
I'm pretty sure many of us do understand. You're basically saying that you prefer the rush of a real life "risk vs. reward" scenario, such as pulling stunts on a motorcycle where the injuries/damage can be very real and very lasting.
And, compared to that, you find the idea of DPs in MMOs to be pointless because they just can't compare to the risk of screwing up on a stunt and splitting your skull open.
That when you're playing a game you don't want to feel that same kind of "risk" in losing or failing at something because you already get that in real life.
To that I offer you this: Not everyone is an adrenaline junky in real life. So, for you to say in essence, "I don't enjoy DPs or high risk in games because I get it in real life so I don't understand why anyone else feels differently..." well.. if you look at it objectively, you are projecting an extremely egocentric point-of-view. You're judging everyone else's point-of-view based entirely on your own, based on an assumption that yours is "right" and those who disagree "don't know real risk because they're not out pulling stunts on a motorcycle like you are".
It's quite possible there are people - and I'd even bet money there are, even if you don't know them personally - who are adrenaline junkies who do enjoy having that feeling of high risk translated - as well as it can be - into a video game setting, simply because they get off on that kind of feeling, in whatever form it is presented.
Your personal preferences, activities and perceptions are your own... Some may share them. Others won't. That you seem to be rather aggressively and judgmentally pushing your personal views on the matter on everyone else is, frankly, arrogant and really not the basis for a reasonable discussion or debate. You have this very obvious "I'm right and who ever doesn't agree just doesn't understand what it's like to be an adrenaline junky" attitude that comes across in every post you make on the topic.
As for the "I don't have 2 hours..." remark. I'll give you the same response I give everyone else who argues from their personal circumstances. First, your personal circumstances do not make you special or entitled. They make you just like every other gamer out there with their own sets of personal circumstances. Second, there are others who do have the time to spend on such activities, and they are every bit as deserving of an experience they enjoy as you are of one you enjoy. Because you have an enjoyment of real-life risk taking does not place you or your preferences above those who don't... however much you seem to think so.
Honestly you seem to be the one who can't understand that SOME people want risk in their games. Only a fool would think that everyone has the same tastes, but the market for a "hardcore" game IS out there. It may not bring in WoW numbers, but it would be a sustainable business model if done well.
"I am not in a server with Gankers...THEY ARE IN A SERVER WITH ME!!!"
Honestly you seem to be the one who can't understand that SOME people want risk in their games. Only a fool would think that everyone has the same tastes, but the market for a "hardcore" game IS out there. It may not bring in WoW numbers, but it would be a sustainable business model if done well.
You're 100% wrong.
Frankly, I'm wondering if you even read my post that carefully because your response makes absolutely no sense and doesn't relate, at all, to what I said.
Of course I realize some people want risk in their games. I'm one of them. I prefer harsher death penalties and greater risk/reward. Hell, I'm working on the design of an indie MMO project that will have a harsher DP and higher risk/reward (full/open PvP with meaning and consequences, etc.. I'm currently working on a prototype of it in order to attract folks and form a team to see it through)
I'm addressing the OP's assertion that high DPs and risk in a game is pointless because - in their case - they go out and risk cracking their head open on a motorcycle if they want a rush. I'm addressing the arrogance in their assertions that because they can't see a value in it due to their own circumstances, that no one else should either.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Honestly you seem to be the one who can't understand that SOME people want risk in their games. Only a fool would think that everyone has the same tastes, but the market for a "hardcore" game IS out there. It may not bring in WoW numbers, but it would be a sustainable business model if done well.
You're 100% wrong.
Frankly, I'm wondering if you even read my post that carefully because your response makes absolutely no sense and doesn't relate, at all, to what I said.
Of course I realize some people want risk in their games. I'm one of them. I prefer harsher death penalties and greater risk/reward. Hell, I'm working on the design of an indie MMO project that will have a harsher DP and higher risk/reward (full/open PvP with meaning and consequences, etc..)
I'm addressing the OP's assertion that high DPs and risk in a game is pointless because - in their case - they go out and risk cracking their head open on a motorcycle if they want a rush. I'm addressing the arrogance in their assertions that because they can't see a value in it due to their own circumstances, that no one else should either.
My bad I got your arguements mixed up a little.
"I am not in a server with Gankers...THEY ARE IN A SERVER WITH ME!!!"
Honestly you seem to be the one who can't understand that SOME people want risk in their games. Only a fool would think that everyone has the same tastes, but the market for a "hardcore" game IS out there. It may not bring in WoW numbers, but it would be a sustainable business model if done well.
You're 100% wrong.
Frankly, I'm wondering if you even read my post that carefully because your response makes absolutely no sense and doesn't relate, at all, to what I said.
Of course I realize some people want risk in their games. I'm one of them. I prefer harsher death penalties and greater risk/reward. Hell, I'm working on the design of an indie MMO project that will have a harsher DP and higher risk/reward (full/open PvP with meaning and consequences, etc..)
I'm addressing the OP's assertion that high DPs and risk in a game is pointless because - in their case - they go out and risk cracking their head open on a motorcycle if they want a rush. I'm addressing the arrogance in their assertions that because they can't see a value in it due to their own circumstances, that no one else should either.
My bad I got your arguements mixed up a little.
lol it's all good.
For all I know my wording is confusing. I sometimes know what I mean to say but don't quite get it out as clearly lol.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Honestly you seem to be the one who can't understand that SOME people want risk in their games. Only a fool would think that everyone has the same tastes, but the market for a "hardcore" game IS out there. It may not bring in WoW numbers, but it would be a sustainable business model if done well.
No matter if there is a market or not for the game. even if it were a sustainable amount for the game, but if that market is worth creating a mmo game cattering to it. The companies that make mmos are out to make profit as much as they can, and as such they would go for getting the largest crowd of players to recoup there developement money, and start making pure profit off the game. Till companies see that doing this is nt working and choose to g to a smaller more sustained model and payer group we will not see any new genre of mmos with these more difficult or harsher penalties in them as they are not see as viable to the companies.
Difficulty - Whats the point of playing something that is too easy? If their is no challenge, then it would be mind numbing to me.
Death Penalty - I prefer having one that will set you back say 15-30 minutes of play time, thats not too harsh imo. It makes it to where you pay attention more, and to where you are just not dying to gate back to bind to sell or logoff or whatever...Also when their is no death penalty, people tend to just do stupid things and don't care, from my experience.
I tend to get more involved/immersed in games that are challenging and have a death penalty, verse games that are easy and have no penalty, I just don't find myself caring if I die, and 'ranger gating' to bind to log out quickly etc..
One thing I like about death penalty as gear damage is that the player can, by removing his gear, opt to not have any death penalty, so he can do crazy stunts with impunity.
I don't know about others, but I surely like doing crazy stunts in games from time to time. This is also one of my main uses for loading and saving in single player games.
I agree with your 15-30 minutes bit, with a caveat: the player should be able to either accumulate enough "credit" to make up for multiple deaths (as is the case with gear damage), or be able to postpone paying off the death penalty (as with XP debit). Being unable to play for 15 minutes because you just died is one heck of a mood killer.
Also, while I can agree with a 15-30 minutes setback for a death penalty, I don't see a real need for it. Death is often enough penalty in itself, at least for me. I see having to try again on failure as enough incentive to try and get it right the first time. Plus, I don't get a thrill because of the risk; I simply get annoyed at the penalty.
Death penalties shouldn't all be lumped into one category of evil. Not only are there varying degrees of penalties but also some that makes sense within that universe/lore/system. Then there are some that makes no sense other than to place a timesink.
It's easy to take both sides of the argument depending on what type of penalty we are talking about.
Forcing your car to be repaired after it gets rammed too many times is a penalty. One that makes sense. Having your gear disintegrate by 20% after a death, just to see it vanish completely should you be so unlucky to die 5 times in a row before you can get to a repair shop is idiotic by my standards.
Difficulty - Whats the point of playing something that is too easy? If their is no challenge, then it would be mind numbing to me.
Death Penalty - I prefer having one that will set you back say 15-30 minutes of play time, thats not too harsh imo. It makes it to where you pay attention more, and to where you are just not dying to gate back to bind to sell or logoff or whatever...Also when their is no death penalty, people tend to just do stupid things and don't care, from my experience.
I tend to get more involved/immersed in games that are challenging and have a death penalty, verse games that are easy and have no penalty, I just don't find myself caring if I die, and 'ranger gating' to bind to log out quickly etc..
I work hard enough everyday on job. I'm not in to mood to come home a pay company to make me work harder on a game. SOme of us realize that it is just a game and nothing more than a form of entertainment. If an MMORPG doesn't wan't to set us back 30 minutes and allows us to jump right in and enjoy the meat of the game, then I'm all for it.
I'm going to let you know something. Most people who play games for entertainment don't care how hard or easy the game is for other people.
Difficulty - Whats the point of playing something that is too easy? If their is no challenge, then it would be mind numbing to me.
Death Penalty - I prefer having one that will set you back say 15-30 minutes of play time, thats not too harsh imo. It makes it to where you pay attention more, and to where you are just not dying to gate back to bind to sell or logoff or whatever...Also when their is no death penalty, people tend to just do stupid things and don't care, from my experience.
I tend to get more involved/immersed in games that are challenging and have a death penalty, verse games that are easy and have no penalty, I just don't find myself caring if I die, and 'ranger gating' to bind to log out quickly etc..
I work hard enough everyday on job. I'm not in to mood to come home a pay company to make me work harder on a game. SOme of us realize that it is just a game and nothing more than a form of entertainment. If an MMORPG doesn't wan't to set us back 30 minutes and allows us to jump right in and enjoy the meat of the game, then I'm all for it.
I'm going to let you know something. Most people who play games for entertainment don't care how hard or easy the game is for other people.
I work also...I don't mean that you need not be able to play, think someone thought that. I just mean that if would take 15-30 minutes worth of mob killing to get the xp back, heck 10-15 is fine imo. I was not saying you couldn't have 'fun' for 15-30 minutes.
As easy as games are anymore, I guess it doesn't matter, since you rarely die anymore anyway..But that goes to the challenge part.
Difficulty - Whats the point of playing something that is too easy? If their is no challenge, then it would be mind numbing to me.
Death Penalty - I prefer having one that will set you back say 15-30 minutes of play time, thats not too harsh imo. It makes it to where you pay attention more, and to where you are just not dying to gate back to bind to sell or logoff or whatever...Also when their is no death penalty, people tend to just do stupid things and don't care, from my experience.
I tend to get more involved/immersed in games that are challenging and have a death penalty, verse games that are easy and have no penalty, I just don't find myself caring if I die, and 'ranger gating' to bind to log out quickly etc..
Games where the 'death penalty' is used as a travel method are just poorly designed. Once you get past that, you really do not need a serious death penalty to keep things challenging.
I am generally in favour of resetting at the beginning of the current encounter and for all the mobs in that encounter to rest and fully heal up. It should cost you about 5 min of game time to be able to try again though you might want to spend more to properly anaylyse why you died the first time. On basic encounters you probably know why you died even before you lose the last hitpoint.
Since I am not a gambler I get no rush from death penalties and properly designed encounters are just as challenging with or without them.
Difficulty - Whats the point of playing something that is too easy? If their is no challenge, then it would be mind numbing to me.
Death Penalty - I prefer having one that will set you back say 15-30 minutes of play time, thats not too harsh imo. It makes it to where you pay attention more, and to where you are just not dying to gate back to bind to sell or logoff or whatever...Also when their is no death penalty, people tend to just do stupid things and don't care, from my experience.
I tend to get more involved/immersed in games that are challenging and have a death penalty, verse games that are easy and have no penalty, I just don't find myself caring if I die, and 'ranger gating' to bind to log out quickly etc..
Games where the 'death penalty' is used as a travel method are just poorly designed. Once you get past that, you really do not need a serious death penalty to keep things challenging.
I am generally in favour of resetting at the beginning of the current encounter and for all the mobs in that encounter to rest and fully heal up. It should cost you about 5 min of game time to be able to try again though you might want to spend more to properly anaylyse why you died the first time. On basic encounters you probably know why you died even before you lose the last hitpoint.
Since I am not a gambler I get no rush from death penalties and properly designed encounters are just as challenging with or without them.
Well, I do not like instances, so their would be no reset in what I prefer, and as for games with death penalty being poorly designed, I think a lot of people would disagree, as I do, since EQ1 had a death penalty and I think it was a great game up till instanced content took over.
By saying I dislike instances, doesn't mean I don't play anything with it, as thats nearly impossible anymore, but were just saying what we think...If someone was around to rez you in EQ1, you didn't lose much at all, but if not you did lose a little bit, nothing big. I mean 'death penalty' is subjective, I am saying 15-30 minutes of xp hunting, and probably less than 5 if you get rezd, you are saying a 5 minute set back in an instance towards a goal. Both could be classified as such...
I mean this will sound silly, but what makes my penalty so much worse than your? Also if mine is too harsh, is yours? Should you instant rez at a safe distance from your corpse and have a debuff on stats for 5 minutes? Should you not have that debuff cause thats too harsh? Is that all too harsh and you keep your buffs from before death and are full health mana, so you can go at the mob again instantly? If he killed you before, maybe its health shouldn't regen? Not being a prick, but I don't see where my suggestion is crazy, and if it is, then where is the line, since your solution also is a penalty, even though you didn't view it as such? Thats where penalty and difficulty come in imo...I know not everyone is like this, but if you lower the bar too much, I couldn't get myself to care about playing a game like that...I am not saying a game has to give you lashings, just make it so you care if you die, and try to make someone improve their tactics and learn from it...Some may not need it as someone else said, but I have seen too many people just do too many stupid things when their isn't any xp penalty (even when their is, but usually these people quit, because the game is too 'hard').
I don't want a game to make people quit, just be competant, to where they are not going to get me killed 24/7, like cloth casters thinking they are tanks because they can life drain or heal themselves a little....Then get everyone killed repeatedly.
Many Players want a game that challenges them, they want to feel a sense of accomplishment for over coming a challenege and lastly they want a sense of pride and recognition for overcoming a challenge.
The majoirty of an MMO game is centered around killing stuff so the challenge is built by providing you a Monster to fight and a sets of simple skills that can be combined to a certain order that will provide you a win. Then it is up to you, the Player, to understand your skills, watch the Monster and environment and adapt / use your skills intelligently.
The problem with a no death pnealty system and the above scenario is that a Player could avoid the challenge by simply randomly pushing keys as fast as possible without any strategy, thought or intelligence. All they need to have is a huge amount of free time and click on the respawn button. This crude playstyle isn't an accomplishment and doesn't show any ability to overcome the challenge through thought, wisdom or strategy.
So a heavy death penalty actually preserves the challenge and forces the intelligent / strategic playstyle, if someone attempts to random button mash / faceroll their way through the challenge they are certain to die many many times before they are lucky enough to press the right random sequence of keys. If the hard death penalty weakens the player a small amount each time they die then many repeated random deaths actually can ensure that the player will be so weak they simple can not win against the challenge even with the perfect strategy.
So wanting challenge and success in an MMO is not different than the drive to get a 2000 on your SATs or running a 40 meter dash in under 4.5 seconds. Its competition against yourself.
The trouble with many mainstream MMOs is that they fail to prove any meaningful challenges and on the off chance they create a truly challenging encounter they later will weaken the encounter when less strategic players complain the challenge is too hard, thus diminishing the work and success of the better players that defeated it before them.
Basically Mainstream MMOs are like some Adventure's DayCare service, if you show up, play casually, and roll your face across your keyboard you will be handed all the rewards available in game and be judged just as good err.. I mean bad as everyone else playing because we don't want to hurt anyone's feelings by recognizing the harsh truth that not everyone has the same skill, intelligence or ability.
The danger is fun. It turns boring activities into thrilling ones. Also, The danger prevents people from exploring certain types of content and rewards those who do. The danger keeps the industry working and so on.
Comments
Then why are there all those stories about how a guy lost over 1millon in isk. Im just saying. Ill admit i never played eve and i hear its a great game but im not saying u lose all your shit in eve.
But when talking harsh death penalty players have argued being looted and perma death are great ways to go. Im just saying if that happens some players just dont have to time to get there shit back that takes them 3-5 months to get.
I didnt mean to make it seem this is normal in eve although i hear it does happen. . I just meant if that stuff does happen some people dont have the time to do what took them along time to do once all over again.
Most of the time you get scams and corp/alliance thefts but only if your stupid. You play wise and only trust those people who you have known for years in game and you will be ok 90% of the time. The guys I fly with I know will not rip me off or steal my stuff. And the same goes for those that I have flown with in the past.
I have in the past lost everything in Eve but over time built it all back up again. And in the process it made me a better player and taught me some good lessons. For me games like WoW just do not give me the same buzz when I pvp. PvP in WoW is meh died again respawn try for the flag again.
PvP in Eve is alot more intense and adrenaline pumping. Because not only is your ship and character life on the line but that of your fleet as well, and in that one battle could mean you loosing your sov over a system which starts a cascade and breaks an alliance. Without consequence or the ability to control your envrioment within a MMO then PvP has no meaning and you may as well play on a PvE server. Which is one reason I liked DAoC realm based PvP and still think nothing can match it for a land based fantasy MMO.
I played a game with compounding skill loss system on death. Everything was lootable, and that was the least of your worries. You could actually be kidnapped and held prisoner. It's an adrenaline rush when you're a lone pirate boarding a military vessel. You know that if you fail to complete your agenda then you are going ot be taken and thrown into the brig. I've never actually gotten such an adrenaline rush from any other game before. Some people just want to risk somethign when they play.
Look at it like this... Some people play Texas Hold'em at the bar for free. Other people go to a casino and risk real money.
"I am not in a server with Gankers...THEY ARE IN A SERVER WITH ME!!!"
I look a it like this:
If I'm playing for free, I can just focus on having fun, go all out against anyone, etc. Win or lose, I'm having a good time, and a loss does not impact on my future ability to play.
If I'm risking real money, instead of focusing on having fun, I have to focus on not losing. Be more conservative, avoid calling bluffs unless I'm absolutely certain, perhaps even flat out refusing to play against someone I know is better than me. In my case, focusing so much on winning means I stop having fun. Plus, losing can make me unable to keep playing, perhaps for an extended time period.
So, it's obvious where I stand. Implement harsh death penalties and I either don't start playing in the first place or get out of the game as soon as the penalties actually hit me. It's why I don't play EVE; I like most things about that game, but would only consider actually paying for it if most of the death penalty was removed - which most likely will be never, since the death penalty is a core EVE concept.
Then you are a "free poker" player, and that is fine. Some of us actually enjoy risk, and a bit of an adrenaline rush when things get hectic.
"I am not in a server with Gankers...THEY ARE IN A SERVER WITH ME!!!"
Yeah for the most part people want to have fu in a game both hardcore people and casual players, but there is an issue here which has come to light in mmos right now. That isssue is that with the increased population of gamers in mmos compared to, before mmos became so popular more poeple that find risking or difficulty in a gaame to fustrate them reducing thheir fun as a side effect. THis means that the difficulty as well as harsh penalties of older games did not suit these newer more numerous playerbase making the games becoming more easy and as such fun for those that layed them on average. Now you have all of the older gamers that enjoyed a challenge, risk, as well as penalties in the game who find the mmos we have not as enjoyabel as the older mmos were. As such they voice their desire for mmos that cater to them in difficulty, penalty, and risks so they can once more enjoy there time in games they pay for.
Difficulty - Whats the point of playing something that is too easy? If their is no challenge, then it would be mind numbing to me.
Death Penalty - I prefer having one that will set you back say 15-30 minutes of play time, thats not too harsh imo. It makes it to where you pay attention more, and to where you are just not dying to gate back to bind to sell or logoff or whatever...Also when their is no death penalty, people tend to just do stupid things and don't care, from my experience.
I tend to get more involved/immersed in games that are challenging and have a death penalty, verse games that are easy and have no penalty, I just don't find myself caring if I die, and 'ranger gating' to bind to log out quickly etc..
My thoughts exactly. It sounds more like the OP is trying to assert himself as a "cool guy" amongst his gaming peers more than making an actual point.
I hate to break it to you cool guy. No matter how many wheelies you do. You are still a gaming geek
Pot calling the kettle black?
"I am not in a server with Gankers...THEY ARE IN A SERVER WITH ME!!!"
1. I don't assert myself as anything
2. I embrace my inner gaming geek. I don't tell people I go to the gym to press weights before I hit the clubs picking up supermodels.
Your point? You had none
I'm pretty sure many of us do understand. You're basically saying that you prefer the rush of a real life "risk vs. reward" scenario, such as pulling stunts on a motorcycle where the injuries/damage can be very real and very lasting.
And, compared to that, you find the idea of DPs in MMOs to be pointless because they just can't compare to the risk of screwing up on a stunt and splitting your skull open.
That when you're playing a game you don't want to feel that same kind of "risk" in losing or failing at something because you already get that in real life.
To that I offer you this: Not everyone is an adrenaline junky in real life. So, for you to say in essence, "I don't enjoy DPs or high risk in games because I get it in real life so I don't understand why anyone else feels differently..." well.. if you look at it objectively, you are projecting an extremely egocentric point-of-view. You're judging everyone else's point-of-view based entirely on your own, based on an assumption that yours is "right" and those who disagree "don't know real risk because they're not out pulling stunts on a motorcycle like you are".
It's quite possible there are people - and I'd even bet money there are, even if you don't know them personally - who are adrenaline junkies who do enjoy having that feeling of high risk translated - as well as it can be - into a video game setting, simply because they get off on that kind of feeling, in whatever form it is presented.
Your personal preferences, activities and perceptions are your own... Some may share them. Others won't. That you seem to be rather aggressively and judgmentally pushing your personal views on the matter on everyone else is, frankly, arrogant and really not the basis for a reasonable discussion or debate. You have this very obvious "I'm right and who ever doesn't agree just doesn't understand what it's like to be an adrenaline junky" attitude that comes across in every post you make on the topic. Frankly, I sense a degree of self back-patting every time you bring it up.
As for the "I don't have 2 hours..." remark. I'll give you the same response I give everyone else who argues from their personal circumstances. First, your personal circumstances do not make you special or entitled. They make you just like every other gamer out there with their own sets of personal circumstances. Second, there are others who do have the time to spend on such activities, and they are every bit as deserving of an experience they enjoy as you are of one you enjoy. Because you have an enjoyment of real-life risk taking does not place you or your preferences above those who don't... however much you seem to think so.
You don't enjoy a high risk/reward ratio or harsh DPs in MMORPGs... fine. Seek out games that don't have them. There are plenty on offer. No one's stopping you. Problem solved.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Honestly you seem to be the one who can't understand that SOME people want risk in their games. Only a fool would think that everyone has the same tastes, but the market for a "hardcore" game IS out there. It may not bring in WoW numbers, but it would be a sustainable business model if done well.
"I am not in a server with Gankers...THEY ARE IN A SERVER WITH ME!!!"
Motorcycles are cool Butthead!
Look at the idiot wreck Beavis!
He said stoppie heh hehe heh hehe!
I once walked to my computer, with my shoelace untied, I am a rebel, you can't stop me, I don't care!
You're 100% wrong.
Frankly, I'm wondering if you even read my post that carefully because your response makes absolutely no sense and doesn't relate, at all, to what I said.
Of course I realize some people want risk in their games. I'm one of them. I prefer harsher death penalties and greater risk/reward. Hell, I'm working on the design of an indie MMO project that will have a harsher DP and higher risk/reward (full/open PvP with meaning and consequences, etc.. I'm currently working on a prototype of it in order to attract folks and form a team to see it through)
I'm addressing the OP's assertion that high DPs and risk in a game is pointless because - in their case - they go out and risk cracking their head open on a motorcycle if they want a rush. I'm addressing the arrogance in their assertions that because they can't see a value in it due to their own circumstances, that no one else should either.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
My bad I got your arguements mixed up a little.
"I am not in a server with Gankers...THEY ARE IN A SERVER WITH ME!!!"
lol it's all good.
For all I know my wording is confusing. I sometimes know what I mean to say but don't quite get it out as clearly lol.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
No matter if there is a market or not for the game. even if it were a sustainable amount for the game, but if that market is worth creating a mmo game cattering to it. The companies that make mmos are out to make profit as much as they can, and as such they would go for getting the largest crowd of players to recoup there developement money, and start making pure profit off the game. Till companies see that doing this is nt working and choose to g to a smaller more sustained model and payer group we will not see any new genre of mmos with these more difficult or harsher penalties in them as they are not see as viable to the companies.
One thing I like about death penalty as gear damage is that the player can, by removing his gear, opt to not have any death penalty, so he can do crazy stunts with impunity.
I don't know about others, but I surely like doing crazy stunts in games from time to time. This is also one of my main uses for loading and saving in single player games.
I agree with your 15-30 minutes bit, with a caveat: the player should be able to either accumulate enough "credit" to make up for multiple deaths (as is the case with gear damage), or be able to postpone paying off the death penalty (as with XP debit). Being unable to play for 15 minutes because you just died is one heck of a mood killer.
Also, while I can agree with a 15-30 minutes setback for a death penalty, I don't see a real need for it. Death is often enough penalty in itself, at least for me. I see having to try again on failure as enough incentive to try and get it right the first time. Plus, I don't get a thrill because of the risk; I simply get annoyed at the penalty.
Death penalties shouldn't all be lumped into one category of evil. Not only are there varying degrees of penalties but also some that makes sense within that universe/lore/system. Then there are some that makes no sense other than to place a timesink.
It's easy to take both sides of the argument depending on what type of penalty we are talking about.
Forcing your car to be repaired after it gets rammed too many times is a penalty. One that makes sense. Having your gear disintegrate by 20% after a death, just to see it vanish completely should you be so unlucky to die 5 times in a row before you can get to a repair shop is idiotic by my standards.
I work hard enough everyday on job. I'm not in to mood to come home a pay company to make me work harder on a game. SOme of us realize that it is just a game and nothing more than a form of entertainment. If an MMORPG doesn't wan't to set us back 30 minutes and allows us to jump right in and enjoy the meat of the game, then I'm all for it.
I'm going to let you know something. Most people who play games for entertainment don't care how hard or easy the game is for other people.
I work also...I don't mean that you need not be able to play, think someone thought that. I just mean that if would take 15-30 minutes worth of mob killing to get the xp back, heck 10-15 is fine imo. I was not saying you couldn't have 'fun' for 15-30 minutes.
As easy as games are anymore, I guess it doesn't matter, since you rarely die anymore anyway..But that goes to the challenge part.
Games where the 'death penalty' is used as a travel method are just poorly designed. Once you get past that, you really do not need a serious death penalty to keep things challenging.
I am generally in favour of resetting at the beginning of the current encounter and for all the mobs in that encounter to rest and fully heal up. It should cost you about 5 min of game time to be able to try again though you might want to spend more to properly anaylyse why you died the first time. On basic encounters you probably know why you died even before you lose the last hitpoint.
Since I am not a gambler I get no rush from death penalties and properly designed encounters are just as challenging with or without them.
Well, I do not like instances, so their would be no reset in what I prefer, and as for games with death penalty being poorly designed, I think a lot of people would disagree, as I do, since EQ1 had a death penalty and I think it was a great game up till instanced content took over.
By saying I dislike instances, doesn't mean I don't play anything with it, as thats nearly impossible anymore, but were just saying what we think...If someone was around to rez you in EQ1, you didn't lose much at all, but if not you did lose a little bit, nothing big. I mean 'death penalty' is subjective, I am saying 15-30 minutes of xp hunting, and probably less than 5 if you get rezd, you are saying a 5 minute set back in an instance towards a goal. Both could be classified as such...
I mean this will sound silly, but what makes my penalty so much worse than your? Also if mine is too harsh, is yours? Should you instant rez at a safe distance from your corpse and have a debuff on stats for 5 minutes? Should you not have that debuff cause thats too harsh? Is that all too harsh and you keep your buffs from before death and are full health mana, so you can go at the mob again instantly? If he killed you before, maybe its health shouldn't regen? Not being a prick, but I don't see where my suggestion is crazy, and if it is, then where is the line, since your solution also is a penalty, even though you didn't view it as such? Thats where penalty and difficulty come in imo...I know not everyone is like this, but if you lower the bar too much, I couldn't get myself to care about playing a game like that...I am not saying a game has to give you lashings, just make it so you care if you die, and try to make someone improve their tactics and learn from it...Some may not need it as someone else said, but I have seen too many people just do too many stupid things when their isn't any xp penalty (even when their is, but usually these people quit, because the game is too 'hard').
I don't want a game to make people quit, just be competant, to where they are not going to get me killed 24/7, like cloth casters thinking they are tanks because they can life drain or heal themselves a little....Then get everyone killed repeatedly.
Your analogy is a bit off.
Many Players want a game that challenges them, they want to feel a sense of accomplishment for over coming a challenege and lastly they want a sense of pride and recognition for overcoming a challenge.
The majoirty of an MMO game is centered around killing stuff so the challenge is built by providing you a Monster to fight and a sets of simple skills that can be combined to a certain order that will provide you a win. Then it is up to you, the Player, to understand your skills, watch the Monster and environment and adapt / use your skills intelligently.
The problem with a no death pnealty system and the above scenario is that a Player could avoid the challenge by simply randomly pushing keys as fast as possible without any strategy, thought or intelligence. All they need to have is a huge amount of free time and click on the respawn button. This crude playstyle isn't an accomplishment and doesn't show any ability to overcome the challenge through thought, wisdom or strategy.
So a heavy death penalty actually preserves the challenge and forces the intelligent / strategic playstyle, if someone attempts to random button mash / faceroll their way through the challenge they are certain to die many many times before they are lucky enough to press the right random sequence of keys. If the hard death penalty weakens the player a small amount each time they die then many repeated random deaths actually can ensure that the player will be so weak they simple can not win against the challenge even with the perfect strategy.
So wanting challenge and success in an MMO is not different than the drive to get a 2000 on your SATs or running a 40 meter dash in under 4.5 seconds. Its competition against yourself.
The trouble with many mainstream MMOs is that they fail to prove any meaningful challenges and on the off chance they create a truly challenging encounter they later will weaken the encounter when less strategic players complain the challenge is too hard, thus diminishing the work and success of the better players that defeated it before them.
Basically Mainstream MMOs are like some Adventure's DayCare service, if you show up, play casually, and roll your face across your keyboard you will be handed all the rewards available in game and be judged just as good err.. I mean bad as everyone else playing because we don't want to hurt anyone's feelings by recognizing the harsh truth that not everyone has the same skill, intelligence or ability.
The danger is fun. It turns boring activities into thrilling ones. Also, The danger prevents people from exploring certain types of content and rewards those who do. The danger keeps the industry working and so on.
No death penalty = No danger.