So I am watching this (my first time watching the show), and I noticed they all bought a few of misconceptions regarding roles and the holy trinity (HT). This always annoys me.
Myth 1. If you have specialization, then you have HT roles.
False. [...]
Myth 2. If you have the capability of being tougher, healing better, etc, then you will have HT roles be viable.
False. [...]
Myth 3. The Holy Trinity is wonderful game design.
False. [...]
Frankly, a better combat system would be dynamic and engaging by default. This is of course what GW2 is setting out to do, so that's a big plus in my book.
I didn't think the GW2 talk was as good as earlier shows myself, but the Skyrim talk at the end was epic, I laughed so much I probably annoyed my neighbours.
I mean, really? You're going off the fast travel, crafting, the fact instances exist (even though the types of instancing is different), and the death penalty? That's not even 10% of the gameplay. Heck, some of that isn't gameplay at all (instances aren't gameplay, they're a place where gameplay happens) and isn't even related to WHY you are doing the gameplay (e.g. instances aren't why you do gameplay either). That's at best a handful of weak relation.
So yeah, I find that absurd.
SWTOR on the other hand has an extremely similar combat system to WoW, and since if you exclude chatting. Combat is structured around similar goals as well (gear grind). So yeah, that's a huge amount in common when you have a ton of gameplay that's the same and done for the same reason.
I'm not saying TOR is a WoW clone, mind you. It's a bit like WoW+ with reskinning. The plus is the story, improved crafting, and space combat (I suppose you could say there are some negatives as well, but let's not get into that, it's minor stuff). Outside of the plus, the game IS a WoW clone. GW2 has a lot more different from WoW, and you are being disingenuous if you pretend otherwise. The whole structure of the game is different.
It is not a double standard to say GW2 is much more of a departure from MMOs like WoW than TOR is. Heck, even the developers of both games agree. TOR devs have talked about how WoW made standards that need to be followed, GW2 devs talk about how this isn't the case at all.
Why not? are we suppossed to follow some specific rules and mention only specific features to label MMO a WOW clone? since when? and who decides what features makes a MMO wow clone and what features do not? if there was some rule book written for it i would agree but in the end it boils down to personal preference. that is why i brought up this point. Who is right and who is wrong? no one really.
For some instanced battleground, minimal death penality are staple features of themepark / WOW clone for others it is questing and for some other it can be all of these combined together. I never expected you to agree with me because i know personal bias has lot to do with calling an X game a WOW clone.
Because it is like saying Skyrim is a WoW clone because you can pick flowers for alchemy in both of them.
No. You must look at the core mechanics of the gameplay and the purpose of that gameplay within the game. What is the vast majority of time in these games spent doing? Combat, certainly (beyond glorified chat room activities). Is the combat the same or similar? Not really. Is combat for the same purpose within the game? No, the incentives are quite different.
Death penalty? An inconvenience.
Instancing? Important convenience factor for many features. However, ONE thing in common does not make a clone.
Instanced battleground? That only exists in WoW. GW2 will have instanced combats for competitive small group PvP. Large group PvP is non-instance (but restricted to special zones, which is different).
Certainly there's a degree of subjectivity, but with your standards we'd say cake is basically the same thing as pie because they both have flour in them. You have to look at and compare the main features and importantly the main activities of each game and why they are done.
Hey some people are content to go through life watching the world pass them by, eating the same shit every day, living a crappy existence.....those people are the ones who do what ever someone tells them to do like Play WoW Clones.
There are others who strive to get ahead, better themselves, are not satisfied with the status quo, live life to its fullest and want something better from their leisure activity.....those people demand their game be different, better and push the boundarys. These people are waiting for GW2.
I am fine with people wanting subpar gaming experiences, and im sure they are entertained moreso then I would be from a shallow gaming experience but thank god I am not blinded by mediocrity and the status quo. GW2 or TSW are the saviors this genre is so desperatly in need of.
Alot of successful people play wow aswell. don't try make yourself look better because you play a different game..that's pathetic.
Guess when a bigger audience is wanted bad enough its easier to turn to controversial flame bait instead of real topics. A better discussion would be why MMOs fail in the west instead of picking one to specifically bait the audience.
You Sir....didnt watch the episode.
To be honest.......I cant even rebut your post because your failure at english keeps me from understanding your point of your op.
Its a great episode.......but you cant judge the book by the cover on this one.
well, that's bad luck i guess, when you print someone eating a cow on the cover of a book, you will not sell it to vegan people, if you understand what i mean.
i wont watch it either with such a HUGE trollface on it's cover
"I'll never grow up, never grow up, never grow up! Not me!"
I mean, really? You're going off the fast travel, crafting, the fact instances exist (even though the types of instancing is different), and the death penalty? That's not even 10% of the gameplay. Heck, some of that isn't gameplay at all (instances aren't gameplay, they're a place where gameplay happens) and isn't even related to WHY you are doing the gameplay (e.g. instances aren't why you do gameplay either). That's at best a handful of weak relation.
So yeah, I find that absurd.
SWTOR on the other hand has an extremely similar combat system to WoW, and since if you exclude chatting. Combat is structured around similar goals as well (gear grind). So yeah, that's a huge amount in common when you have a ton of gameplay that's the same and done for the same reason.
I'm not saying TOR is a WoW clone, mind you. It's a bit like WoW+ with reskinning. The plus is the story, improved crafting, and space combat (I suppose you could say there are some negatives as well, but let's not get into that, it's minor stuff). Outside of the plus, the game IS a WoW clone. GW2 has a lot more different from WoW, and you are being disingenuous if you pretend otherwise. The whole structure of the game is different.
It is not a double standard to say GW2 is much more of a departure from MMOs like WoW than TOR is. Heck, even the developers of both games agree. TOR devs have talked about how WoW made standards that need to be followed, GW2 devs talk about how this isn't the case at all.
Why not? are we suppossed to follow some specific rules and mention only specific features to label MMO a WOW clone? since when? and who decides what features makes a MMO wow clone and what features do not? if there was some rule book written for it i would agree but in the end it boils down to personal preference. that is why i brought up this point. Who is right and who is wrong? no one really.
For some instanced battleground, minimal death penality are staple features of themepark / WOW clone for others it is questing and for some other it can be all of these combined together. I never expected you to agree with me because i know personal bias has lot to do with calling an X game a WOW clone.
Because it is like saying Skyrim is a WoW clone because you can pick flowers for alchemy in both of them.
No. You must look at the core mechanics of the gameplay and the purpose of that gameplay within the game. What is the vast majority of time in these games spent doing? Combat, certainly (beyond glorified chat room activities). Is the combat the same or similar? Not really. Is combat for the same purpose within the game? No, the incentives are quite different.
Death penalty? An inconvenience.
Instancing? Important convenience factor for many features. However, ONE thing in common does not make a clone.
Instanced battleground? That only exists in WoW. GW2 will have instanced combats for competitive small group PvP. Large group PvP is non-instance (but restricted to special zones, which is different).
Certainly there's a degree of subjectivity, but with your standards we'd say cake is basically the same thing as pie because they both have flour in them. You have to look at and compare the main features and importantly the main activities of each game and why they are done.
I am sorry but i am using the same standards on GW2 which are pretty much used on every MMO here to call them WOW clone. objectivity and prudence has hardly got anything to do with any discussion which includes words like WOW CLONE.
Death penalty is a feature, so is instanced pve/ pvp, fast traveling, simplistic crafting. However i did mention more than one thing but i was quite certain you will shrug it off. If you list all the features of SWTOR and GW2 and comapre them to WOW the difference in similar features might not be the same for both MMOS in comaprison but it won't be a land slide either.
That is why i said earlier that maybe GW2 is a lesser clone of WOW by those standards. And once again what consitutes main features? for some PVE is main feature and for others PVP, some might be happy just crafting and others exploring. People are going to label a MMO WOW clone as long as it is convenient and helps their agenda.
How many servers SWTOR will launch with on release?
ShredderSE - Umm how many do they need? Maybe 6. US, EU, Asian, France, German and Russian. Subs will be so low there is no need for more Snoocky-How many servers? The first 3 months a lot...after that 2 i guess, one for PVE and 1 for PVP...
Thorbrand - SWTOR doesn't have longevity at all. Might be one of the shortest lived MMOs.
Hey some people are content to go through life watching the world pass them by, eating the same shit every day, living a crappy existence.....those people are the ones who do what ever someone tells them to do like Play WoW Clones.
There are others who strive to get ahead, better themselves, are not satisfied with the status quo, live life to its fullest and want something better from their leisure activity.....those people demand their game be different, better and push the boundarys. These people are waiting for GW2.
I am fine with people wanting subpar gaming experiences, and im sure they are entertained moreso then I would be from a shallow gaming experience but thank god I am not blinded by mediocrity and the status quo. GW2 or TSW are the saviors this genre is so desperatly in need of.
Lol. Wow, this almost sounded like a commercial or company advertorial, or a demagogue or tv evangelist talking. One more line like that and I was on the verge of calling out 'Hallelujah, praise the Lord!'
Kidding aside, I wish people could understand something as simple as that tastes differ, and that if they have (foolishly?) burnt themselves out on certain games and gameplay and have lost the ability to enjoy those, that doesn't mean that others should too.
Really, is it so hard to accept that people can have differing tastes without looking down upon those that don't share the same taste and can enjoy things that others can't (anymore)? In short, don't blame others for the loss of satisfaction you - speaking in the general sense of 'you' - yourself feel regarding those games, for the simple reason that they can still have great fun with those games instead of being MMO homeless with the only resort moping on forums.
Me, I intend to enjoy SWTOR as well as GW2 and TSW and if I have time and depending on release dates, Firefall and ArcheAge as well, each game for its own merits and gaming fun. To each their own.
edit: just listened to parts of the OP's talk, reminds me of Gamebreaker TV in a lot of ways
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
I am sorry but i am using the same standards on GW2 which are pretty much used on every MMO here to call them WOW clone. objectivity and prudence has hardly got anything to do with any discussion which includes words like WOW CLONE.
Death penalty is a feature, so is instanced pve/ pvp, fast traveling, simplistic crafting. However i did mention more than one thing but i was quite certain you will shrug it off. If you list all the features of SWTOR and GW2 and comapre them to WOW the difference in similar features might not be the same for both MMOS in comaprison but it won't be a land slide either.
That is why i said earlier that maybe GW2 is a lesser clone of WOW by those standards. And once again what consitutes main features? for some PVE is main feature and for others PVP, some might be happy just crafting and others exploring. People are going to label a MMO WOW clone as long as it is convenient and helps their agenda.
Well, if you aren't even trying to be objective, why bother having this conversation?
Death Penalty is a feature, sure, but it isn't something that you spend dealing with the majority of your time in almost any MMO.
Again, you are looking at tertiary stuff, not the meat and potatoes of these MMOs. Not what almost all players spend the vast majority of their time doing. You look at relatively minor stuff, see similarities and declare a clone. That's not a sensible way to go
Ok, we've been over PvE and obviously GW2 has some vast differences compared to WoW. TOR has a lot less. This is especially true when you look at what you spend the majority of your time doing and the reason why you do it.
PvP? The differences between GW2 and WoW/TOR are just as great if not greater. So how does that change things?
So I guess since you've admitted to not trying to being objective and that you think people only use these terms to help their agenda, you must have some sort of agenda in trying to foist the term "WoW Clone" on GW2. Not because it is true, not because it makes sense, but because you want it that way.
Personally I think we should aim a good bit higher than that.
I am sorry but i am using the same standards on GW2 which are pretty much used on every MMO here to call them WOW clone. objectivity and prudence has hardly got anything to do with any discussion which includes words like WOW CLONE.
Death penalty is a feature, so is instanced pve/ pvp, fast traveling, simplistic crafting. However i did mention more than one thing but i was quite certain you will shrug it off. If you list all the features of SWTOR and GW2 and comapre them to WOW the difference in similar features might not be the same for both MMOS in comaprison but it won't be a land slide either.
That is why i said earlier that maybe GW2 is a lesser clone of WOW by those standards. And once again what consitutes main features? for some PVE is main feature and for others PVP, some might be happy just crafting and others exploring. People are going to label a MMO WOW clone as long as it is convenient and helps their agenda.
Well, if you aren't even trying to be objective, why bother having this conversation?
Death Penalty is a feature, sure, but it isn't something that you spend dealing with the majority of your time in almost any MMO.
Again, you are looking at tertiary stuff, not the meat and potatoes of these MMOs. Not what almost all players spend the vast majority of their time doing. You look at relatively minor stuff, see similarities and declare a clone. That's not a sensible way to go
Ok, we've been over PvE and obviously GW2 has some vast differences compared to WoW. TOR has a lot less. This is especially true when you look at what you spend the majority of your time doing and the reason why you do it.
PvP? The differences between GW2 and WoW/TOR are just as great if not greater. So how does that change things?
So I guess since you've admitted to not trying to being objective and that you think people only use these terms to help their agenda, you must have some sort of agenda in trying to foist the term "WoW Clone" on GW2. Not because it is true, not because it makes sense, but because you want it that way.
Personally I think we should aim a good bit higher than that.
Once again you are trying to argue with me regarding what features should be taken into consideration when from very first post i made it clear that for different players different features have appeal. Not everyone is going to agree on same features as 'main'.
What is meat and potatoes for you could be very well not that important to others. People usually run through feature list and try to find similarities and even if they cna find 2 or 3 things similar the term WOW CLONE is thrown around. Only difference is that fans of those MMO will always defend against any such labeling but do not hesitate to do the same to other MMOS which although similar to WOW also offer lots of different things. hence, the double standard talk.
Does Swtor has features similar to themepark / WOW? yes but does it offer different things? ofcourse but hey it is still a WOW clone.
Does GW2 have similarities with WOW/themepark model? yes but does it offer different things? yes but wait it is not WOW clone because it offers a little more. Earlier it used to be about simialr features and now it is about 'less' similar features.
And yes i do have an agenda..to point out the double standards. I like it though how the same features that are used to label other MMOS a clone are some how not that important or trivial when it comes to GW2. ;p
How many servers SWTOR will launch with on release?
ShredderSE - Umm how many do they need? Maybe 6. US, EU, Asian, France, German and Russian. Subs will be so low there is no need for more Snoocky-How many servers? The first 3 months a lot...after that 2 i guess, one for PVE and 1 for PVP...
Thorbrand - SWTOR doesn't have longevity at all. Might be one of the shortest lived MMOs.
Once again you are trying to argue with me regarding what features should be taken into consideration when from very first post i made it clear that for different players different features have appeal. Not everyone is going to agree on same features as 'main'.
What is meat and potatoes for you could be very well not that important to others. People usually run through feature list and try to find similarities and even if they cna find 2 or 3 things similar the term WOW CLONE is thrown around. Only difference is that fans of those MMO will always defend against any such labeling but do not hesitate to do the same to other MMOS which although similar to WOW also offer lots of different things. hence, the double standard talk.
Does Swtor has features similar to themepark / WOW? yes but does it offer different things? ofcourse but hey it is still a WOW clone.
Does GW2 have similarities with WOW/themepark model? yes but does it offer different things? yes but wait it is not WOW clone because it offers a little more. Earlier it used to be about simialr features and now it is about 'less' similar features.
And yes i do have an agenda..to point out the double standards. I like it though how the same features that are used to label other MMOS a clone are some how not that important or trivial when it comes to GW2. ;p
Personal importance of features is only one possible criterion of feature gradation - extremely subjective, too, which makes any WoW clone definition based on it subjective. That doesn't mean there aren't others - one could gradate features by statistical time of use or user attention, both of which are objective and measurable. Features in which GW2 innovate definitely have significantly longer time of use and user attention, simply because combat has such strong presence in both games.
Alternatively, one could attempt to make definition based on personal importance more objective by resorting to statistical research of opinions. I seriously doubt that SWTOR would come close to GW2 by those criteria, too. Why? Because GW2 innovates in all areas SWTOR does (bar companions/crew skills), and then in quite a lot more on top of that - combat, endgame model, dynamic content, RvR, loot/progression, guilds, marketplace etc. I can easily see GW2 passing the innovation/difference threshold of "WoW clone", while SWTOR doesn't make it.
Once again you are trying to argue with me regarding what features should be taken into consideration when from very first post i made it clear that for different players different features have appeal. Not everyone is going to agree on same features as 'main'.
What is meat and potatoes for you could be very well not that important to others. People usually run through feature list and try to find similarities and even if they cna find 2 or 3 things similar the term WOW CLONE is thrown around. Only difference is that fans of those MMO will always defend against any such labeling but do not hesitate to do the same to other MMOS which although similar to WOW also offer lots of different things. hence, the double standard talk.
Does Swtor has features similar to themepark / WOW? yes but does it offer different things? ofcourse but hey it is still a WOW clone.
Does GW2 have similarities with WOW/themepark model? yes but does it offer different things? yes but wait it is not WOW clone because it offers a little more. Earlier it used to be about simialr features and now it is about 'less' similar features.
And yes i do have an agenda..to point out the double standards. I like it though how the same features that are used to label other MMOS a clone are some how not that important or trivial when it comes to GW2. ;p
Personal importance of features is only one possible criterion of feature gradation - extremely subjective, too, which makes any WoW clone definition based on it subjective. That doesn't mean there aren't others - one could gradate features by statistical time of use or user attention, both of which are objective and measurable. Features in which GW2 innovate definitely have significantly longer time of use and user attention, simply because combat has such strong presence in both games.
Alternatively, one could attempt to make definition based on personal importance more objective by resorting to statistical research of opinions. I seriously doubt that SWTOR would come close to GW2 by those criteria, too. Why? Because GW2 innovates in all areas SWTOR does (bar companions/crew skills), and then in quite a lot more on top of that - combat, endgame model, dynamic content, RvR, loot/progression, guilds, marketplace etc. I can easily see GW2 passing the innovation/difference threshold of "WoW clone", while SWTOR doesn't make it.
Innovation is a tricky word. For some innovaiton means doing something completely original for others like me a new twist or improvements on existing features is sufficent to call it innovative.
But the point here is not only about doing something different but also what features SWTOR has that are similar to WOW to qualify it as a WOW clone. Well there are plenty of feature which WOW never had and most probably will never have.
It has lot more going for it than just companion system and crew skills. It has a very elaborate modding system and is a lot more complex than it looks on surface. Also i don't remember WOW having personal housing system from get go. Neither does WOW offer branching storylines with different outcomes based on actions and dialouge choices. No advance classes. I can give a lot more examples how SWTOR is different but i know in the end whole discussion boils down to questing and combat. That is why i said it is hard to define who considers what features to be 'main' when making 'this MMO is a clone of WOW' argument'.
For me personally SWTOR passes the threshold for WOW clone as much as GW2 does. But i know personal bias and favoritism will always take precedence over reasoning. I scoff at anyone who calls SWTOR a WOW clone as much as i do at anyone who calls GW2 a WOW clone. But like i said people will just ignore what is different and hammer only the similar parts as if that is all there is to a game.
How many servers SWTOR will launch with on release?
ShredderSE - Umm how many do they need? Maybe 6. US, EU, Asian, France, German and Russian. Subs will be so low there is no need for more Snoocky-How many servers? The first 3 months a lot...after that 2 i guess, one for PVE and 1 for PVP...
Thorbrand - SWTOR doesn't have longevity at all. Might be one of the shortest lived MMOs.
Innovation is a tricky word. For some innovaiton means doing something completely original for others like me a new twist or improvements on existing features is sufficent to call it innovative.
But the point here is not only about doing something different but also what features SWTOR has that are similar to WOW to qualify it as a WOW clone. Well there are plenty of feature which WOW never had and most probably will never have.
It has lot more going for it than just companion system and crew skills. It has a very elaborate modding system and is a lot more complex than it looks on surface. Also i don't remember WOW having personal housing system from get go. Neither does WOW offer branching storylines with different outcomes based on actions and dialouge choices. No advance classes. I can give a lot more examples how SWTOR is different but i know in the end whole discussion boils down to questing and combat. That is why i said it is hard to define who considers what features to be 'main' when making 'this MMO is a clone of WOW' argument'.
For me personally SWTOR passes the threshold for WOW clone as much as GW2 does. But i know personal bias and favoritism will always take precedence over reasoning. I scoff at anyone who calls SWTOR a WOW clone as much as i do at anyone who calls GW2 a WOW clone. But like i said people will just ignore what is different and hammer only the similar parts as if that is all there is to a game.
I'm not saying companions are only thing going for TOR - but they are only area of innovation/difference that isn't challenged in GW2 too, and GW2 has multiple areas of innovation/difference that aren't touched by SWTOR (and have greater presence in game than companions). Point being, those two games aren't equally different from WoW, so it doesn't surprise me at all that some people consider one a clone, and the other not. It just means their "WoW clone" threshold is somewhere between those two games, and I think there's quite significant distance between them to hold that threshold.
It's only a clone, if all features are the same. Which is not the case for either SWTOR or GW2.
From wikipedia:
Innovation is the creation of better or more effective products, processes, services, technologies, or ideas that are accepted by markets, governments, and society. Innovation differs from invention in that innovation refers to the use of a new idea or method, whereas invention refers more directly to the creation of the idea or method itself.
Hence you could say that both games try to be innovative. Additionally, GW2 is inventive with the new DE system, new combat system and lack of the holy trinity, which is the standard for traditional mmos. SWTOR is inventive with the new on-rails flight missions (do be expanded) and companion system.
There are probably more points for both games, but you get the idea.
People should really use the term 'Generic MMO' rather than 'WOW clone' since WOW didnt invent anything. It just dumbed down existing features of the genre.
It's only a clone, if all features are the same. Which is not the case for either SWTOR or GW2.
From wikipedia:
Innovation is the creation of better or more effective products, processes, services, technologies, or ideas that are accepted by markets, governments, and society. Innovation differs from invention in that innovation refers to the use of a new idea or method, whereas invention refers more directly to the creation of the idea or method itself.
Hence you could say that both games try to be innovative. Additionally, GW2 is inventive with the new DE system, new combat system and lack of the holy trinity, which is the standard for traditional mmos. SWTOR is inventive with the new on-rails flight missions (do be expanded) and companion system.
There are probably more points for both games, but you get the idea.
Your post while i agree to a point , kinda lacks the information that is needed to show the differences and innovations that both games possess. There's more than companions and a space mini game that makes TOR different. Crew skills, modding system, the cover system for ranged combat and the weapon collision system for melee combat, the full vo and cut scene's, the corruption/facial system, the lightside/darkside morality points system. These things are all things that really have never been seen in a mmorpg before.
GW2 has a no trinity system, VO with cutscene's, the DE system, and the things you mentioned. Both point o games that differ from other games including WOW.
People should really use the term 'Generic MMO' rather than 'WOW clone' since WOW didnt invent anything. It just dumbed down existing features of the genre.
Innovation is a tricky word. For some innovaiton means doing something completely original for others like me a new twist or improvements on existing features is sufficent to call it innovative.
But the point here is not only about doing something different but also what features SWTOR has that are similar to WOW to qualify it as a WOW clone. Well there are plenty of feature which WOW never had and most probably will never have.
It has lot more going for it than just companion system and crew skills. It has a very elaborate modding system and is a lot more complex than it looks on surface. Also i don't remember WOW having personal housing system from get go. Neither does WOW offer branching storylines with different outcomes based on actions and dialouge choices. No advance classes. I can give a lot more examples how SWTOR is different but i know in the end whole discussion boils down to questing and combat. That is why i said it is hard to define who considers what features to be 'main' when making 'this MMO is a clone of WOW' argument'.
For me personally SWTOR passes the threshold for WOW clone as much as GW2 does. But i know personal bias and favoritism will always take precedence over reasoning. I scoff at anyone who calls SWTOR a WOW clone as much as i do at anyone who calls GW2 a WOW clone. But like i said people will just ignore what is different and hammer only the similar parts as if that is all there is to a game.
I'm not saying companions are only thing going for TOR - but they are only area of innovation/difference that isn't challenged in GW2 too, and GW2 has multiple areas of innovation/difference that aren't touched by SWTOR (and have greater presence in game than companions). Point being, those two games aren't equally different from WoW, so it doesn't surprise me at all that some people consider one a clone, and the other not. It just means their "WoW clone" threshold is somewhere between those two games, and I think there's quite significant distance between them to hold that threshold.
Come on now i just gave you example of modding system which is a big step up than what you can do with crafting in GW2 so obviously companions and crew skills are not the only areas. The distance is only as significant as you want it to be.
How many servers SWTOR will launch with on release?
ShredderSE - Umm how many do they need? Maybe 6. US, EU, Asian, France, German and Russian. Subs will be so low there is no need for more Snoocky-How many servers? The first 3 months a lot...after that 2 i guess, one for PVE and 1 for PVP...
Thorbrand - SWTOR doesn't have longevity at all. Might be one of the shortest lived MMOs.
everyone who says that GW2 will fail, can you read me my future? Am I going to finally win the lottery and legally marry 3 women and live happily together? please tell me, i need to hear it from you future tellers......
Come on now i just gave you example of modding system which is a big step up than what you can do with crafting in GW2 so obviously companions and crew skills are not the only areas. The distance is only as significant as you want it to be.
GW2 has item advanced item modification system, too. TOR has no advantage in that field - in fact, I'd say it's behind GW2, which, beyond usual stat modification, allows users to modify looks via multiple colour channels and transmutation stones. Same goes for different areas of the game - for example, TOR tries to innovate story, but so does GW2. Basically, companions are only area in which GW2 went conventional way when TOR didn't (though it was concious choice after experience with GW1). On the other side, there are multiple areas in which GW2 innovates/differs from WoW in which TOR took the conventional route.
Come on now i just gave you example of modding system which is a big step up than what you can do with crafting in GW2 so obviously companions and crew skills are not the only areas. The distance is only as significant as you want it to be.
GW2 has item advanced item modification system, too. TOR has no advantage in that field - in fact, I'd say it's behind GW2, which, beyond usual stat modification, allows users to modify looks via multiple colour channels and transmutation stones. Same goes for different areas of the game - for example, TOR tries to innovate story, but so does GW2. Basically, companions are only area in which GW2 went conventional way when TOR didn't (though it was concious choice after experience with GW1). On the other side, there are multiple areas in which GW2 innovates/differs from WoW in which TOR took the conventional route.
Only because it is stats based it is behind GW2? so we can just ignore amount of modification it offers only on this ground? the item modification in SWTOR is linked directly with crafting where as in GW2 that is not the case. See we are once again going to that route of my game is better than yours which i have been trying to avoid since this discussion started. There is article on item modification on front page of this website. If you don't want agree fine but please don't shrug it off by saying 'usual stat modification' because it mods a lot more than just usual stats.
How many servers SWTOR will launch with on release?
ShredderSE - Umm how many do they need? Maybe 6. US, EU, Asian, France, German and Russian. Subs will be so low there is no need for more Snoocky-How many servers? The first 3 months a lot...after that 2 i guess, one for PVE and 1 for PVP...
Thorbrand - SWTOR doesn't have longevity at all. Might be one of the shortest lived MMOs.
Only because it is stats based it is behind GW2? so we can just ignore amount of modification it offers only on this ground? the item modification in SWTOR is linked directly with crafting where as in GW2 that is not the case. See we are once again going to that route of my game is better than yours which i have been trying to avoid since this discussion started. There is article on item modification on front page of this website. If you don't want agree fine but please don't shrug it off by saying 'usual stat modification' because it mods a lot more than just usual stats.
I think you misunderstood me. I don't shrug it as "usual", I acknowledge it's something different than what WoW offers. My point is, GW2 innovates weapon modification, too (arguably more that TOR, because it offers stat modification and visual modification), AND innovates some systems TOR doesn't on top of that. I'm not trying to make a case of "companions are only thing that differs TOR from WoW". I'm making a case of "GW2 differs from WoW significantly more than TOR from WoW".
Only because it is stats based it is behind GW2? so we can just ignore amount of modification it offers only on this ground? the item modification in SWTOR is linked directly with crafting where as in GW2 that is not the case. See we are once again going to that route of my game is better than yours which i have been trying to avoid since this discussion started. There is article on item modification on front page of this website. If you don't want agree fine but please don't shrug it off by saying 'usual stat modification' because it mods a lot more than just usual stats.
I think you misunderstood me. I don't shrug it as "usual", I acknowledge it's something different than what WoW offers. My point is, GW2 innovates weapon modification, too (arguably more that TOR, because it offers stat modification and visual modification), AND innovates some systems TOR doesn't on top of that. I'm not trying to make a case of "companions are only thing that differs TOR from WoW". I'm making a case of "GW2 differs from WoW significantly more than TOR from WoW".
Weapons/armor everything is modable in SWTOR and it is both statistical and visual. Infact it gives crafter a lot more importance than any themepark MMO in recent years. In GW2 item modification is not linked with crafting and that is my main point. I consider it a step up over simple crafting of GW2. When i talk about mods in SWTOR i am actually talking about two things in one. So yeah difference is not that significant really. SWTOR is just one step ahead of GW2 in crafting.
How many servers SWTOR will launch with on release?
ShredderSE - Umm how many do they need? Maybe 6. US, EU, Asian, France, German and Russian. Subs will be so low there is no need for more Snoocky-How many servers? The first 3 months a lot...after that 2 i guess, one for PVE and 1 for PVP...
Thorbrand - SWTOR doesn't have longevity at all. Might be one of the shortest lived MMOs.
Weapons/armor everything is modable in SWTOR and it is both statistical and visual. Infact it gives crafter a lot more importance than any themepark MMO in recent years. In GW2 item modification is not linked with crafting and that is my main point. I consider it a step up over simple crafting of GW2. When i talk about mods in SWTOR i am actually talking about two things in one. So yeah difference is not that significant really. SWTOR is just one step ahead of GW2 in crafting.
AFAIK, in GW2 item modification is linked with crafting - for example, weaponsmith can craft sword handle which can then be applied to sword for specific bonuses. Isn't that similar to how things work in SWTOR?
Besides, it's not really my intention to discuss in details which game has made better progress on features they innovate. As you've said before - it's often subjective (I find three dye channels more innovative than whatever TOR has, you don't). My point is still - for vast majority of SWTOR innovation areas, GW2 offers something new, too. It doesn't work the other way. And that's why they're not equally different from WoW.
Comments
Great post! I wholeheartedly agree.
I didn't think the GW2 talk was as good as earlier shows myself, but the Skyrim talk at the end was epic, I laughed so much I probably annoyed my neighbours.
Because it is like saying Skyrim is a WoW clone because you can pick flowers for alchemy in both of them.
No. You must look at the core mechanics of the gameplay and the purpose of that gameplay within the game. What is the vast majority of time in these games spent doing? Combat, certainly (beyond glorified chat room activities). Is the combat the same or similar? Not really. Is combat for the same purpose within the game? No, the incentives are quite different.
Death penalty? An inconvenience.
Instancing? Important convenience factor for many features. However, ONE thing in common does not make a clone.
Instanced battleground? That only exists in WoW. GW2 will have instanced combats for competitive small group PvP. Large group PvP is non-instance (but restricted to special zones, which is different).
Certainly there's a degree of subjectivity, but with your standards we'd say cake is basically the same thing as pie because they both have flour in them. You have to look at and compare the main features and importantly the main activities of each game and why they are done.
Alot of successful people play wow aswell. don't try make yourself look better because you play a different game..that's pathetic.
It's very obvious that wow was alot of posters first mmo . mmo's had wow like combat before wow was released.
well, that's bad luck i guess, when you print someone eating a cow on the cover of a book, you will not sell it to vegan people, if you understand what i mean.
i wont watch it either with such a HUGE trollface on it's cover
"I'll never grow up, never grow up, never grow up! Not me!"
I am sorry but i am using the same standards on GW2 which are pretty much used on every MMO here to call them WOW clone. objectivity and prudence has hardly got anything to do with any discussion which includes words like WOW CLONE.
Death penalty is a feature, so is instanced pve/ pvp, fast traveling, simplistic crafting. However i did mention more than one thing but i was quite certain you will shrug it off. If you list all the features of SWTOR and GW2 and comapre them to WOW the difference in similar features might not be the same for both MMOS in comaprison but it won't be a land slide either.
That is why i said earlier that maybe GW2 is a lesser clone of WOW by those standards. And once again what consitutes main features? for some PVE is main feature and for others PVP, some might be happy just crafting and others exploring. People are going to label a MMO WOW clone as long as it is convenient and helps their agenda.
How many servers SWTOR will launch with on release?
ShredderSE - Umm how many do they need? Maybe 6.
US, EU, Asian, France, German and Russian.
Subs will be so low there is no need for more
Snoocky-How many servers?
The first 3 months a lot...after that 2 i guess, one for PVE and 1 for PVP...
Thorbrand - SWTOR doesn't have longevity at all. Might be one of the shortest lived MMOs.
Lol. Wow, this almost sounded like a commercial or company advertorial, or a demagogue or tv evangelist talking. One more line like that and I was on the verge of calling out 'Hallelujah, praise the Lord!'
Kidding aside, I wish people could understand something as simple as that tastes differ, and that if they have (foolishly?) burnt themselves out on certain games and gameplay and have lost the ability to enjoy those, that doesn't mean that others should too.
Really, is it so hard to accept that people can have differing tastes without looking down upon those that don't share the same taste and can enjoy things that others can't (anymore)? In short, don't blame others for the loss of satisfaction you - speaking in the general sense of 'you' - yourself feel regarding those games, for the simple reason that they can still have great fun with those games instead of being MMO homeless with the only resort moping on forums.
Me, I intend to enjoy SWTOR as well as GW2 and TSW and if I have time and depending on release dates, Firefall and ArcheAge as well, each game for its own merits and gaming fun. To each their own.
edit: just listened to parts of the OP's talk, reminds me of Gamebreaker TV in a lot of ways
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
So people have moved on from hatng Swtor and are now focusing their hate on guild wars 2, this site is hilarious.
Well, if you aren't even trying to be objective, why bother having this conversation?
Death Penalty is a feature, sure, but it isn't something that you spend dealing with the majority of your time in almost any MMO.
Again, you are looking at tertiary stuff, not the meat and potatoes of these MMOs. Not what almost all players spend the vast majority of their time doing. You look at relatively minor stuff, see similarities and declare a clone. That's not a sensible way to go
Ok, we've been over PvE and obviously GW2 has some vast differences compared to WoW. TOR has a lot less. This is especially true when you look at what you spend the majority of your time doing and the reason why you do it.
PvP? The differences between GW2 and WoW/TOR are just as great if not greater. So how does that change things?
So I guess since you've admitted to not trying to being objective and that you think people only use these terms to help their agenda, you must have some sort of agenda in trying to foist the term "WoW Clone" on GW2. Not because it is true, not because it makes sense, but because you want it that way.
Personally I think we should aim a good bit higher than that.
Once again you are trying to argue with me regarding what features should be taken into consideration when from very first post i made it clear that for different players different features have appeal. Not everyone is going to agree on same features as 'main'.
What is meat and potatoes for you could be very well not that important to others. People usually run through feature list and try to find similarities and even if they cna find 2 or 3 things similar the term WOW CLONE is thrown around. Only difference is that fans of those MMO will always defend against any such labeling but do not hesitate to do the same to other MMOS which although similar to WOW also offer lots of different things. hence, the double standard talk.
Does Swtor has features similar to themepark / WOW? yes but does it offer different things? ofcourse but hey it is still a WOW clone.
Does GW2 have similarities with WOW/themepark model? yes but does it offer different things? yes but wait it is not WOW clone because it offers a little more. Earlier it used to be about simialr features and now it is about 'less' similar features.
And yes i do have an agenda..to point out the double standards. I like it though how the same features that are used to label other MMOS a clone are some how not that important or trivial when it comes to GW2. ;p
How many servers SWTOR will launch with on release?
ShredderSE - Umm how many do they need? Maybe 6.
US, EU, Asian, France, German and Russian.
Subs will be so low there is no need for more
Snoocky-How many servers?
The first 3 months a lot...after that 2 i guess, one for PVE and 1 for PVP...
Thorbrand - SWTOR doesn't have longevity at all. Might be one of the shortest lived MMOs.
Personal importance of features is only one possible criterion of feature gradation - extremely subjective, too, which makes any WoW clone definition based on it subjective. That doesn't mean there aren't others - one could gradate features by statistical time of use or user attention, both of which are objective and measurable. Features in which GW2 innovate definitely have significantly longer time of use and user attention, simply because combat has such strong presence in both games.
Alternatively, one could attempt to make definition based on personal importance more objective by resorting to statistical research of opinions. I seriously doubt that SWTOR would come close to GW2 by those criteria, too. Why? Because GW2 innovates in all areas SWTOR does (bar companions/crew skills), and then in quite a lot more on top of that - combat, endgame model, dynamic content, RvR, loot/progression, guilds, marketplace etc. I can easily see GW2 passing the innovation/difference threshold of "WoW clone", while SWTOR doesn't make it.
Innovation is a tricky word. For some innovaiton means doing something completely original for others like me a new twist or improvements on existing features is sufficent to call it innovative.
But the point here is not only about doing something different but also what features SWTOR has that are similar to WOW to qualify it as a WOW clone. Well there are plenty of feature which WOW never had and most probably will never have.
It has lot more going for it than just companion system and crew skills. It has a very elaborate modding system and is a lot more complex than it looks on surface. Also i don't remember WOW having personal housing system from get go. Neither does WOW offer branching storylines with different outcomes based on actions and dialouge choices. No advance classes. I can give a lot more examples how SWTOR is different but i know in the end whole discussion boils down to questing and combat. That is why i said it is hard to define who considers what features to be 'main' when making 'this MMO is a clone of WOW' argument'.
For me personally SWTOR passes the threshold for WOW clone as much as GW2 does. But i know personal bias and favoritism will always take precedence over reasoning. I scoff at anyone who calls SWTOR a WOW clone as much as i do at anyone who calls GW2 a WOW clone. But like i said people will just ignore what is different and hammer only the similar parts as if that is all there is to a game.
How many servers SWTOR will launch with on release?
ShredderSE - Umm how many do they need? Maybe 6.
US, EU, Asian, France, German and Russian.
Subs will be so low there is no need for more
Snoocky-How many servers?
The first 3 months a lot...after that 2 i guess, one for PVE and 1 for PVP...
Thorbrand - SWTOR doesn't have longevity at all. Might be one of the shortest lived MMOs.
I'm not saying companions are only thing going for TOR - but they are only area of innovation/difference that isn't challenged in GW2 too, and GW2 has multiple areas of innovation/difference that aren't touched by SWTOR (and have greater presence in game than companions). Point being, those two games aren't equally different from WoW, so it doesn't surprise me at all that some people consider one a clone, and the other not. It just means their "WoW clone" threshold is somewhere between those two games, and I think there's quite significant distance between them to hold that threshold.
It's only a clone, if all features are the same. Which is not the case for either SWTOR or GW2.
From wikipedia:
Innovation is the creation of better or more effective products, processes, services, technologies, or ideas that are accepted by markets, governments, and society. Innovation differs from invention in that innovation refers to the use of a new idea or method, whereas invention refers more directly to the creation of the idea or method itself.
Hence you could say that both games try to be innovative. Additionally, GW2 is inventive with the new DE system, new combat system and lack of the holy trinity, which is the standard for traditional mmos. SWTOR is inventive with the new on-rails flight missions (do be expanded) and companion system.
There are probably more points for both games, but you get the idea.
People should really use the term 'Generic MMO' rather than 'WOW clone' since WOW didnt invent anything. It just dumbed down existing features of the genre.
Your post while i agree to a point , kinda lacks the information that is needed to show the differences and innovations that both games possess. There's more than companions and a space mini game that makes TOR different. Crew skills, modding system, the cover system for ranged combat and the weapon collision system for melee combat, the full vo and cut scene's, the corruption/facial system, the lightside/darkside morality points system. These things are all things that really have never been seen in a mmorpg before.
GW2 has a no trinity system, VO with cutscene's, the DE system, and the things you mentioned. Both point o games that differ from other games including WOW.
Never a truer word said.
Come on now i just gave you example of modding system which is a big step up than what you can do with crafting in GW2 so obviously companions and crew skills are not the only areas. The distance is only as significant as you want it to be.
How many servers SWTOR will launch with on release?
ShredderSE - Umm how many do they need? Maybe 6.
US, EU, Asian, France, German and Russian.
Subs will be so low there is no need for more
Snoocky-How many servers?
The first 3 months a lot...after that 2 i guess, one for PVE and 1 for PVP...
Thorbrand - SWTOR doesn't have longevity at all. Might be one of the shortest lived MMOs.
everyone who says that GW2 will fail, can you read me my future? Am I going to finally win the lottery and legally marry 3 women and live happily together? please tell me, i need to hear it from you future tellers......
GW2 has item advanced item modification system, too. TOR has no advantage in that field - in fact, I'd say it's behind GW2, which, beyond usual stat modification, allows users to modify looks via multiple colour channels and transmutation stones. Same goes for different areas of the game - for example, TOR tries to innovate story, but so does GW2. Basically, companions are only area in which GW2 went conventional way when TOR didn't (though it was concious choice after experience with GW1). On the other side, there are multiple areas in which GW2 innovates/differs from WoW in which TOR took the conventional route.
Only because it is stats based it is behind GW2? so we can just ignore amount of modification it offers only on this ground? the item modification in SWTOR is linked directly with crafting where as in GW2 that is not the case. See we are once again going to that route of my game is better than yours which i have been trying to avoid since this discussion started. There is article on item modification on front page of this website. If you don't want agree fine but please don't shrug it off by saying 'usual stat modification' because it mods a lot more than just usual stats.
How many servers SWTOR will launch with on release?
ShredderSE - Umm how many do they need? Maybe 6.
US, EU, Asian, France, German and Russian.
Subs will be so low there is no need for more
Snoocky-How many servers?
The first 3 months a lot...after that 2 i guess, one for PVE and 1 for PVP...
Thorbrand - SWTOR doesn't have longevity at all. Might be one of the shortest lived MMOs.
I think you misunderstood me. I don't shrug it as "usual", I acknowledge it's something different than what WoW offers. My point is, GW2 innovates weapon modification, too (arguably more that TOR, because it offers stat modification and visual modification), AND innovates some systems TOR doesn't on top of that. I'm not trying to make a case of "companions are only thing that differs TOR from WoW". I'm making a case of "GW2 differs from WoW significantly more than TOR from WoW".
Weapons/armor everything is modable in SWTOR and it is both statistical and visual. Infact it gives crafter a lot more importance than any themepark MMO in recent years. In GW2 item modification is not linked with crafting and that is my main point. I consider it a step up over simple crafting of GW2. When i talk about mods in SWTOR i am actually talking about two things in one. So yeah difference is not that significant really. SWTOR is just one step ahead of GW2 in crafting.
How many servers SWTOR will launch with on release?
ShredderSE - Umm how many do they need? Maybe 6.
US, EU, Asian, France, German and Russian.
Subs will be so low there is no need for more
Snoocky-How many servers?
The first 3 months a lot...after that 2 i guess, one for PVE and 1 for PVP...
Thorbrand - SWTOR doesn't have longevity at all. Might be one of the shortest lived MMOs.
AFAIK, in GW2 item modification is linked with crafting - for example, weaponsmith can craft sword handle which can then be applied to sword for specific bonuses. Isn't that similar to how things work in SWTOR?
Besides, it's not really my intention to discuss in details which game has made better progress on features they innovate. As you've said before - it's often subjective (I find three dye channels more innovative than whatever TOR has, you don't). My point is still - for vast majority of SWTOR innovation areas, GW2 offers something new, too. It doesn't work the other way. And that's why they're not equally different from WoW.