Well if it makes you feel better, weapons aren't JUST skins. They do have stats and in vidoes, Total Biscuit's for example, you can see that there are different weapon grades as well. The thing with the skins is that if you really liked the way a weapon you had looked, then you can re skin your new weapon to look the same as the old one while keeping its stats.
I agree with you about character growth. I want to see and feel my character get stronger. When Anet announced the stat system going down to four stats my initial reaction was concern of the system being too simple. Then I thought about other games like say WoW for example with their hit and expertice and crit etc..... and I remembered how much they really didn't matter. You had a minimal limit to get to and the rest were put into the only stats that actually made your character viable. After my initial shock, I have come to not only accept their stat and leveling system, but like the idea.
Either way, it sounded like your biggest problem was that the gear/weapons were all the same and only had different skins when that just isn't the case.
From what I have heard, it is still a problem. Like in Guild Wars 1, people are stating that gaining items w/ the max stats will be relatively easy while the real challenge will be getting the skin you want. That just doesn't cut it for me and makes the progression feel too superficial and insignificant.
Regarding leveling and character growth, WoW is a rather bad example since the only thing you can do when you level is gain an ability (usually just an ability rank), some stat boosts, and maybe a talent point. In games like DDO, for example, one level can completely change the way you play your character. You can achieve a powerful new feat, develop a new type of skill, gain a new prestige "class", gain new and powerful spells, distribute your attribute points, or choose a totally different class.
Guild Wars 2's leveling and item progression just seem weak.
Well if it makes you feel better, weapons aren't JUST skins. They do have stats and in vidoes, Total Biscuit's for example, you can see that there are different weapon grades as well. The thing with the skins is that if you really liked the way a weapon you had looked, then you can re skin your new weapon to look the same as the old one while keeping its stats.
I agree with you about character growth. I want to see and feel my character get stronger. When Anet announced the stat system going down to four stats my initial reaction was concern of the system being too simple. Then I thought about other games like say WoW for example with their hit and expertice and crit etc..... and I remembered how much they really didn't matter. You had a minimal limit to get to and the rest were put into the only stats that actually made your character viable. After my initial shock, I have come to not only accept their stat and leveling system, but like the idea.
Either way, it sounded like your biggest problem was that the gear/weapons were all the same and only had different skins when that just isn't the case.
From what I have heard, it is still a problem. Like in Guild Wars 1, people are stating that gaining items w/ the max stats will be relatively easy while the real challenge will be getting the skin you want. That just doesn't cut it for me and makes the progression feel too superficial and insignificant.
As to that only time will tell. The thing is, in GW the weapons never really had many stats to begin with. Just from watching a few vidoes and reading the information, GW2's weapons already have more going on than they did In GW1. You are entitled to your opinion and free to judge GW2 based on GW1, but it would be a shame since the only thing they share is world and lore.
I know what you mean about the gear improvements making your progression feel superficial, but keep in mind that after lev cap there are still skills you are working towards and that is a different type of character growth that I feel is better than a new shiny weapon. I know most of the MMO's I have played have been about raiding and getting those new epics to make me feel special. None of them have had new skills I could learn after capping so this makes me feel that the character progression and growth still comes, just in a different form.
/edit I also wanted to add, since we are on the subject of weapons, that the weapons themselves, stats aside, also play a significant role in your characters abilities. A warrior with a sword and board won't be the same as a warrior with a hammer and shield. This doesn't have a lot to do with the discussion of character progression. But keep in mind that GW2's skill progression requires use of said weapons to unlock their skills. This means that a characters skills progress after level cap. Some call this needless grind but cmon. Is it really all that different than raid grinding for something new to put on your character? At least with skills I can potentially change how my character plays rather than just how he looks.
As to that only time will tell. The thing is, in GW the weapons never really had many stats to begin with. Just from watching a few vidoes and reading the information, GW2's weapons already have more going on than they did In GW1. You are entitled to your opinion and free to jusdge GW2 based on GW1, but it would be a shame since the only thing they share is world and lore.
I know what you mean about the gear improvements making your progression feel superficial, but keep in mind that after lev cap there are still skills you are working towards and that is a different type of character growth that I feel is better than a new shiny weapon. I know most of the MMO's I have played have been about raiding and getting those new epics to make me feel special. None of them have had new skills I could learn after capping so this makes me feel that the character progression and growth still comes, just in a different form.
It would go against their design philosophy, however. ArenaNet is trying to remove the grind for statistical improvements, but in doing so, I feel they would make item progression rather shallow.
If you are someone who enjoys the WoW-formula casual/solo progression system, with all it's linear and stale quests intact and a raid gear grind to look forward to at max level, there are certainly plenty of games available to choose from. I'm very glad GW2 is trying something different.
In the end, fanboys and skeptics alike are going to have to try it. It's really too different and too complex for anyone to predict with absolute certainty whether they will enjoy it or not, whether it will last or not, etc.
For myself, that sense of progression comes from much more than just gear and some numbers associated with my character. I like to progress in terms of exploration and learning about the world. I like to progress in knowledge and skill as a player. I like to progress in building a reputation among a worthwhile community, and contributing to that community in various ways. I like to progress in building my character's backstory and developing their personality.
This isn't to say I don't also like levels and loot...but I think the trade-off GW2 is making is a good one. Levels will be less significant, yes, and loot will play a somewhat different role...but being able to do any content any time, and being able to play with people anytime regardless of level...those are some HUGE improvements in my mind. I love the idea of more horizontal advancement as well... more breadth that doesn't separate the player base so that there are less barriers to an overall community.
It's not a matter of progression being shallow, it's just a matter of progression being different. Depth doesn't have to come from a linear statistical ladder...it can also come from an ever-growing toolbox with which to approach things in new ways.
As to that only time will tell. The thing is, in GW the weapons never really had many stats to begin with. Just from watching a few vidoes and reading the information, GW2's weapons already have more going on than they did In GW1. You are entitled to your opinion and free to jusdge GW2 based on GW1, but it would be a shame since the only thing they share is world and lore.
I know what you mean about the gear improvements making your progression feel superficial, but keep in mind that after lev cap there are still skills you are working towards and that is a different type of character growth that I feel is better than a new shiny weapon. I know most of the MMO's I have played have been about raiding and getting those new epics to make me feel special. None of them have had new skills I could learn after capping so this makes me feel that the character progression and growth still comes, just in a different form.
It would go against their design philosophy, however. ArenaNet is trying to remove the grind for statistical improvements, but in doing so, I feel they would make item progression rather shallow.
Damn you quoted me while I had another thought.
In a way it could be seen as going against their philosophy. But as I understand it, their philosophy is to take away FORCING to grind for things. These skill aquisitions are as optional as gear aquisition past level cap. These are something to achieve and strive for rather than things you are being forced to do. They have taken out the need to gear grind as well as exp grind so I don't exactly see optional stuff as breaking their philosophy. But that's just how I take it. In traditional games you had to gear grind to get to a certain readiness just to raid. In GW2 you don't need these skills just to be able to run the dungeons/world boss DE's. I guess it's all how you interprate it.
It would go against their design philosophy, however. ArenaNet is trying to remove the grind for statistical improvements, but in doing so, I feel they would make item progression rather shallow.
The original Guild Wars went for stat breadth, rather than stat depth of weapons. There was a large variety of various effects that weapons could have, but the max power capped out fairly quickly. So if by depth you mean 'The numbers only go so high', then yes, pretty shallow. If you mean depth as in 'what all you can do with the weapons', then GW1 was surprisingly deep, and GW2 looks to have all that and more.
One man's 'shallow item progression' is another man's 'Oh thank god I don't have to waste 60+ hours of my life a week for months just keeping up with constantly scaling numbers'.
It's a design philosophy, and if you don't like it, that's the price I'm willing to pay to make myself and other like-minded people happy.
If you are someone who enjoys the WoW-formula casual/solo progression system, with all it's linear and stale quests intact and a raid gear grind to look forward to at max level, there are certainly plenty of games available to choose from. I'm very glad GW2 is trying something different.
In the end, fanboys and skeptics alike are going to have to try it. It's really too different and too complex for anyone to predict with absolute certainty whether they will enjoy it or not, whether it will last or not, etc.
For myself, that sense of progression comes from much more than just gear and some numbers associated with my character. I like to progress in terms of exploration and learning about the world. I like to progress in knowledge and skill as a player. I like to progress in building a reputation among a worthwhile community, and contributing to that community in various ways. I like to progress in building my character's backstory and developing their personality.
This isn't to say I don't also like levels and loot...but I think the trade-off GW2 is making is a good one. Levels will be less significant, yes, and loot will play a somewhat different role...but being able to do any content any time, and being able to play with people anytime regardless of level...those are some HUGE improvements in my mind. I love the idea of more horizontal advancement as well... more breadth that doesn't separate the player base so that there are less barriers to an overall community.
It's not a matter of progression being shallow, it's just a matter of progression being different. Depth doesn't have to come from a linear statistical ladder...it can also come from an ever-growing toolbox with which to approach things in new ways.
It's not a "WoW-formula casual/solo progression system." Item progression dates back to the very first RPG's. It's something that makes the world more believable, adds another meaningful facet to character progression and customization, adds replayability, adds an element surprise, mystery, and excitement ("Will that monster give me a special weapon?"), among other things. Done properly, where there is a balance between player skill and character stats, a balance between the availability of powerful items and more common ones, and a balance between the methods for obtaining these items, then they will just add to the game and make progression more complex.
It's not a "WoW-formula casual/solo progression system." Item progression dates back to the very first RPG's. It's something that makes the world more believable, adds another meaningful facet to character progression and customization, adds replayability, adds an element surprise, mystery, and excitement ("Will that monster give me a special weapon?"), among other things. Done properly, where there is a balance between player skill and character stats, a balance between the availability of powerful items and more common ones, and a balance between the methods for obtaining these items, then they will just add to the game and make progression more complex.
For what it's worth, advancement in something like old style RPG games (Pen and paper) is more complex.
Advancement in MMOs is mostly math. Is a +500 sword better than a +400 sword?
Do the math. I'd be more impressed by your argument if the vast majority of MMO advancement wasn't 'Will I find an item that gives me somewhat higher numbers'. Higher numbers of course being the end all and be all of the fantasy/science fiction genre.
I remember the part in Star Wars where Luke Skywalker went questing for his +18 lightsaber, and after the Lord of the Rings, the thousands of bonus chapters they dedicated to Frodo and Samwise finding increasingly incrementally better equipment. (that WAS what the Silmarillion was about, wasn't it?)
Hmm, that's a bit preoccupying. When playing RPG's, I like the sensation of becoming more powerful, I like obtaining fabled items, and I like leveling and seeing my character grow in significant ways. Some of my greatest gaming moments consists of times when I loot a powerful weapon or when I craft a pristine set of armor for a customer. Sure, there will probably be rare weapons in Guild Wars 2, but their stats won't really matter, and that just feels artificial to me. It does remove part of the grind in the sense that you don't need the weapon for a statistical advantage, but I frankly don't mind working to get items that change my character beyond merely aesthetically since I feel that hard work is necessary to grasp that sense of accomplishment.
Level scaling also isn't really my thing. It just makes leveling seem rather insignificant (something I did not like when playing Guild Wars 1). I like it when after each level, you attain something useful, your character grows in ways that really matter. Also, even though level scaling allows anyone to do any content they want, what purpose would there be to running all this content? Why would a higher level player want to run a lower level quest? Just for the hell of it? For achievements? For weapon skins? These are methods of progression that feel too artificial, too insignificant, too superficial.
Some of my favorite moments in D&D, for instance, come from these things that Guild Wars 2 is basically doing away with. Achieving a level and picking my class, picking my feats, raising my skills, increasing my attributes, choosing my spells, raising my stats. All of these make leveling feel significant, make leveling feel important, they make leveling feel like an actual accomplishment. Likewise, going to the farthest depths of a dungeon, killing a strong monster, and taking from him his most valuable and powerful treasures make me feel like the expedition had meaning.
Also, in terms of immersion and overall believability, sword X should be different from sword Y (apart from looks). If one sword is made by a legendary blacksmith with a harder, more durable, and lighter metal, and the other is just your average and crude guard weapon, they need to behave differently for the sake of meaning and plausability.
I just want to clarify some things, not just to you but going back to some things that were said earlier.
The game scales you down in level when taking on lower level content, but not all the way. Like if you go to a level 5 DE, you'll be the equivalent of a level 8. You'll be powerful, but not so much that you can one-shot everything.
Also, the game doesn't automatically scale you up in power, though you can do that by manually sidekicking to another player who is that level. I've linked this earlier in the thread, but this is some people trying to do an event which is higher level than they are (the text for it in the upper right hand corner is red). They are definitely struggling. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vsUcGBL56Ng
As far as the joys of leveling go, gear does have stats and slots for upgrade components. You raise attributes (and can swap them around outside combat). You automatically gain new ranks of skills (they took out buying them), you can acquire new skills and traits in the world by going out and accomplishing feats (details are hazy and possibly being adjusted at this point). So I think there are definitely going to be things to do.
There will almost certainly be some kind of power plateau where after that it's about vanity, perhaps minor upgrades, or breadth of power. It's funny, in this blog post http://www.arena.net/blog/a-rewarding-experience-john-hargrove-talks-about-loot under the section about "rewards should be worth obtaining", they talk about how each dungeon has unique armor and weapon skins, not mentioning stats at all.
It's funny, I think in all my time in GW1, I only ever made the basic statistical gear, it's not something that interests me to put in the effort for the vanity skins. But what's funny is that I don't think I've ever seen a toon in a city that is wearing the same armor I am, so I guess people really do get into it.
"Gamers will no longer buy the argument that every MMO requires a subscription fee to offset server and bandwidth costs. It's not true you know it, and they know it."-Jeff Strain, co-founder of ArenaNet, 2007
*shrug* I've seen it before, many time. Not bad, but nothing actually new. Also, it's only partially active combat.
2. No Holy Trinity
I don't think it's what you think it is. There is still holy trinity, no doubt about it. It's just that pretty much anyone can play any part of holy trinity at any time.
3. No Themepark style instanced raiding
Are we talking about same game here? There is plenty of instanced themepark group content there. There is no (I hope) gear grind, but that's the only difference...
4. Art direction is AWESOME
In the eye of beholder. I'm not all that much enthralled. Not that it's bad, just nothing to piss my pants about.
5. Arena Nets philosophy on MMO gaming matches mine more so then any other developer. I cant wait to fork over my $$$ to them lol.
Well, can't help here. A good psychiatrist, may be...
6. Open World, more so then ever a game comes about that promotes exploration and being in the world instead of in an instanced.
Yeah, that's a pretty nice part of the game. It's not fully open etc, but combined with DE, provides nice change (hopefully). Not a revolutionary change, but evolutionary.
7. WvWvW a return to meaningful PvP made famous by DAoC's RvR.
I'll believe it when I'll see it. So far, I'm not particularly enthralled.
I'm buying the game, no doubt about it, and I'm optimistic about it, but you should somewhat lower your expectation and stop bubbling. You can only be disappointed if you rise them too high.
SWTOR was the seconding coming until is wasn't. Now GW2 is the next greatest game and wow killer until reality hits. Then it might be Archeage or something else.
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
It's not a "WoW-formula casual/solo progression system." Item progression dates back to the very first RPG's. It's something that makes the world more believable, adds another meaningful facet to character progression and customization, adds replayability, adds an element surprise, mystery, and excitement ("Will that monster give me a special weapon?"), among other things. Done properly, where there is a balance between player skill and character stats, a balance between the availability of powerful items and more common ones, and a balance between the methods for obtaining these items, then they will just add to the game and make progression more complex.
Weapons in real life don't have pluses to stats. No matter how nice a sword it is, it doesn't actually give you more agility or strength. There's nothing inherently more realistic about a gear grind.
In most fantasy I've read, nobody gets new gear and weapons every couple hours which are incrementally better than the ones they had before...so it's not inherently more "high fantasy" either.
It's just the way that it's been done. The reason I mentioned the WoW formula is that because of WoW's success, pretty much every company who has wanted to do those mechanics has done them the same way WoW did. Could it be done differently and strike some perfect balance that provided the best of all worlds? Maybe...but I certainly haven't seen that happen and I wouldn't hold my breath.
There's a big difference between the theory behind some mechanics and how they actually work. There's always going to be a trade-off, and having gear stat progression isn't necessarily better. you might like it better...but like I said, I'm looking for something different, and I think a lot of other people are too. The benefits GW2 will offer, and the dramatically different way that players will be able to approach the game, are worth the potential loss of that one single type of progression (among the many).
Don't forget...although GW2 will be handling progression differently...that doesn't mean there won't be traditional progression. There are levels. There's are stats. There are skills and traits and weapon and gear with stats.
For what it's worth, advancement in something like old style RPG games (Pen and paper) is more complex.
Advancement in MMOs is mostly math. Is a +500 sword better than a +400 sword?
Do the math. I'd be more impressed by your argument if the vast majority of MMO advancement wasn't 'Will I find an item that gives me somewhat higher numbers'. Higher numbers of course being the end all and be all of the fantasy/science fiction genre.
I remember the part in Star Wars where Luke Skywalker went questing for his +18 lightsaber, and after the Lord of the Rings, the thousands of bonus chapters they dedicated to Frodo and Samwise finding increasingly incrementally better equipment. (that WAS what the Silmarillion was about, wasn't it?)
True, most MMO's don't have a very impressive system for item progression. It is not to say however that such is impossible. Make the player consider a variety of factors when choosing their weapons, not just if one has more "attack power" than the other or whatever. Make weapons, for instance, have stats that determine swing speed, swing strength, durability, sharpness, weight, hardness, resistance, size, composition, etc. That way, it becomes a lot more complex choosing the right weapon for a certain playstyle. Want to play like a rogue that backstabs people? Get a weapon that is sharp, small (for concealment purposes), and that can be drawn and stowed away very quickly. This is just a crude example to help illustrate how item progression can be very complex.
Movies in general are a terrible comparison since they have limited runtimes and generally show things more related to the story. However, in Lord of the Rings, Frodo and the rest of the Fellowship do indeed come into the possession of valuable and powerful items like Galadriel's bow and Bilbo's mithril chain mail.
Weapons in real life don't have pluses to stats. No matter how nice a sword it is, it doesn't actually give you more agility or strength. There's nothing inherently more realistic about a gear grind.
Actually, they do. Some weapons are more durable, some are made of harder materials, some are sharper, some have longer blades, some are lighter, some have better grips, some can be drawn and sheathed with greater ease, some have curved blades, some are double-edged, some have greater reach, etc.
In most fantasy I've read, nobody gets new gear and weapons every couple hours which are incrementally better than the ones they had before...so it's not inherently more "high fantasy" either.
Fantasy characters from novels aren't constantly getting gear, but they do indeed get valuable items, more powerful swords, more accurate bows, etc. Just look at The Lord of the Rings and all the powerful items the characters are bestowed throughout their adventures.
It's just the way that it's been done. The reason I mentioned the WoW formula is that because of WoW's success, pretty much every company who has wanted to do those mechanics has done them the same way WoW did. Could it be done differently and strike some perfect balance that provided the best of all worlds? Maybe...but I certainly haven't seen that happen and I wouldn't hold my breath.
There's a big difference between the theory behind some mechanics and how they actually work. There's always going to be a trade-off, and having gear stat progression isn't necessarily better. you might like it better...but like I said, I'm looking for something different, and I think a lot of other people are too. The benefits GW2 will offer, and the dramatically different way that players will be able to approach the game, are worth the potential loss of that one single type of progression (among the many).
True, these things are hard to do and item progression requires a very though-out implementation as to prevent it from becoming a necessary gear grind. Yet, I believe that removing it to the extent that they did with Guild Wars 1 wasn't the right way to go.
Don't forget...although GW2 will be handling progression differently...that doesn't mean there won't be traditional progression. There are levels. There's are stats. There are skills and traits and weapon and gear with stats.
As opposed to artificially elongating content by creating a linear gear progression that you have to grind through to unlock the next layer, or artificially elongating content by creating "hard modes" for all your dungeons, or creating two factions to artificially double your content?
Level scaling doesn't artificially elongate content...it OPENS the breadth of content to the max level player. We're not talking about repeating the same linear low level content, we're talking about having the ability to do content you missed...content that would become trivial in most other MMORPGs and be locked off from play unless you create an alt.
Here's the quesiton I'm asking. "What" is Guild Wars 2 going to implement that makes me give a flip about repeating low level content other than I just happen to like a good challenge? I can't invision being all that interested in repeating a large amount of low level content unless my max level character benefits from it in some way, and I'm not even talking about achievements or fluff items. I'm saying, will the items I get from that content still benefit my character, and if so, how is that even going to work given that a low level character shouldn't really have access to the same type of gear. Even though GW1 didn't have a lot of gear progression, it did have some, and you didn't see level 5s walking around in maxed out gear.
Also, the world scales with me, or rather, I scale down to match whatever particular area of the world I'm in, how do I really gain any sense that my character has increased in power? Sure, I have fancy armor and more skills (or would I only have access to level appropriate skills), but when I'm struggling against the same mobs I was struggling against in the first five minutes of the game, I'm not going to feel like leveling has really made my character that much stronger.
That's great that some previous games tacked on a system to de-level you...but the issue with making it optional is griefing. Players who want to go back and one-shot all the content in low level areas ruin those areas for level-appropriate players. Having level scaling happen automatically removes the griefing while still allowing players to utilize ALL content at max level with at least some level of challenge. It's one of the many ways the game facilitates social play...high level players can actually group up with lower level players to do their content in an organic way that doesn't completely trivialize the game play.
I can't really say that I've ever had that happen to me. I don't think that sort of griefing is honestly a big enough issue to warrant forced level scaling. Again, Anet assumes that their players are going to actually WANT to be challenged by level 5 content, and a lot of people most likely will, but then again, you're going to have people like me who are turned off by the fact that your character never gets a chance to really feel more powerful than he ever did at level 1. The example from Oblivion wasn't the only reason people created mods to change the system, but it certainly was a reason. Just google search "Oblivion hate level scaling." Level scaling has a place in MMORPGs and provides everything that it provides in GW2 only it is not forced upon some players who may not want it. It's just there for those who do.
Also, having to visit an NPC and manually level yourself down every time you want to visit a lower-level zone seems pretty annoying and immersion breaking. In GW2, you can just head out and explore...and whatever new content you find, wherever you go, will be at least a reasonable challenge for you regardless of your level, and you'll be able to play cooperatively with the players there regardless of their level.
Immersion is a funny thing because it means different things to different people. I could tell you that a game's UI interferes with my immersion because in real life, my view wouldn't be obscurred by chat boxes. I could say that it's immersion breaking to summon a mount out of thin air. I could say character customization is immersion breaking because all the players have the same armor. Most relevant to this discussion, however, I could also say that level scaling is immersion breaking. I can think of no logical reason why level 5 bandits would be able to put up just as much of a fight when I'm at max level as they did the moment I stepped off the tutorial boat.
Clearly you're uninformed about the game. If you legitimately want answers to your questions, you should avail yourself of the readily available MASSIVE quantity of infomration that's on the web and easily accessible with a simple search.
Everything about GW2 is designed from the ground up to facilitate social play...it isn't just a couple systems that push players into proximity with each other tacked onto a solo game like what you see in Rift. Just as a start, read up on the way loot works, the way gathering resources works, the way combat works (cross profession combos, healing, rezzing, etc), the way scaling works for events and for players, the more open guild system, the minigames in cities, and the info we have on WvWvW PvP. Hopefully then you'll start to grasp the way social play is built in from the ground up.
Well, the problem with that is you obviously have some information to use as a counter-point for what I have said, and I want to know exactly what you're talking about so I can make an accurate reply. That's the way these debates work. You don't go into a debate claiming I'm clearly uniformed (GW2 criticism defense mechanism), and then just tell me to read a bunch of stuff without even telling me what I'm reading. EQ2, FFXI, and LotRO all have group centric combat combos, but it doesn't make them any more social than any other MMORPG. You can talk to me about a lot of that stuff, but at the end of the day, players are selfish creatures. They're going to do as they have always done and that's do only what is necessary to with other people to further their own ends before severing ties. Of course, you'll have a few people who put every group member they've ever had on their buddy list, but for a lot of us, it's just a matter of what your group mates can do for you.
Those are all badly designed games that use some version of the exact same formula and mechanics. They all suffer the same problems because they are all very similar in design. The fact that you run out of content quickly and have nothing to do at max level other than raid is a product of their game design... GW2 is designed differently, so won't suffer from the same problems.
Just as one quick example... Rift has only two linear quest progression paths (one for each faction), which totally fill in every zone. Once you've played the path for one faction, you've literally played all the content other than dungeons and raids. It's this linear progression system, and the fact that you can only get challenge and progression from a very limited range of content (due to content being fixed in level) that causes players to run out of things to do so quickly. The assumption by the developers is that content throughout the leveling curve doesn't matter, because everyone will be max level super quick and so the focus is on creating time sinks in endgame to keep everyone paying a subscription until expansion time.
GW2 is designed in a completely different way. Because of the automatic scaling of players to the content, there is no content that becomes trivial, so the developers can spend their time creating a very wide breadth of content in each level range...none of it goes to waste because it can be utilized by players regardless of their level. There really are no restrictions on where they place content, since their DE system frees them up from having to place everything in a linear path for the player (no need to line everything up according to level). I could go on...
What you're saying to me is GW2 has a near endless amount of content because it's impossible to outlevel it all. That right there is elongating content by definition. You're basically saying that if I speed dive through the levels and reach a point where I've completed everything I can do at max level, I can go back and do a lot of that low level stuff I skipped before. Great right? I can explore all over the world and participant in lots of DEs I never saw before. Well, maybe for some people that's fun, but that's really no different than leveling an alt. From what I gather, it isn't quite like Oblivion or Skyrim where I can pretty much go anywhere at any level. There's still a progression from low level to high level zones only low level players can actually do high level content if and only if they're sidekicked by high level players which seems like it is basically reverse mentoring.
I still don't see the appeal of this system. It seems to rely on the fact that GW2's playerbase is going to actually care about low level content, and while some are going to like it, I'm not so sure that system will have universal appeal. If there's no point to exploring old content other than simply "just to do it," it's going to fail to hold players' attention. Players stay enticed with this type of game due to a continuing sense of progression. How does roaming all over the game world stopping dynamic events really contribute to one's sense of progression? I still haven't been convinced yet that GW2's endgame will be much else aside from PvP. That, of course, is fine seeing as PvP was the bread and butter of the original Guild Wars, but I'm just not sure a lot of people have the right expectations.
That's not even to say raiding is the only way to keep players interested. The problem with raiding lies within the fact that it is so time consuming. I still maintain that people who are actually able to maintain a position in a steady raid guild are either school kids, retired, unemployed, or fully employed with no life. What does everyone else do when they reach max level? Run dailies? repeat old content for achievements? If you look at a sandbox game like EVE, while there's no raiding, the time requirements are often even worse than raiding in WoW. I honestly don't think any company has found the perfect method to keep people playing MMOs quite yet, or as in the case of standardized objective testing, there may not even be a better way outside of raiding despite all its flaws.
Likewise, the journey is every bit about the pace of the content because the pace of the content is the length of the journey.
Wrong. The journey is GW2 isn't fixed to the leveling process. You will be able to continue doing all the content regardless of your level...so the journey will be much less linear in terms of open world content. It's also much deeper and can last much longer, because again, all content can be utilized by all players, instead of a game design where the leveling progression content is wasted once players outlevel it.
Again, you assume that content scaling is going to be a cure-all for PvE content, but you've thus far been unable to show me how it functions differently from the same process in other games aside from the fact that it's forced on players to prevent griefing. What is my motivation for stopping a bandit attack 5 feet away from the tutorial village gates at level 80 as opposed to stopping a fire breathing dragon from burning down a forest in a max level area? There has to be some sort of incentive, otherwise the system won't be any better than the current dungeon grind until your eyes bleed system in WoW and Rift.
The phrase "it's about the journey" was invented as a reference to older MMORPGs where endgame wasn't the focus, so you've got that part right. Where you're mistaken is that in older MMORPGs, you weren't focused on the endgame because it took months/years to get there. You'd drive yourself insane if all you were concerned with upon logging in and out every day was reaching the max level as fast as possible. Players didn't run out of content because it took them so long to get through the content. Modern MMORPGs (GW2 included) start players about 2 feet from the finish line, so among other reasons, of course all they care about is racing to the endgame.
You're mistaken impression again comes from trying to view GW2 through the goggles of prior MMORPG design. GW2 is "about the journey" just as much as those older MMORPGs, but it just gets there by a completely different route. The level cap isn't the "finish line" in GW2... if you level to max and stop playing, that will be your choice, but you'll be missing out on a tremendous amount of content (again, because this game is not going to be layed out in a linear path). You won't come anywhere close to seeing and doing everything just by leveling up...and unlike previous MMORPGs, that's okay, because nothing becomes trivial or gets left behind.
This game is about journey because the journey isn't attached to the leveling process... the journey is simply playing the game the way you enjoy, and it takes place from level 1 until you run out of fun stuff to do (long after hitting level cap). Levels will come easily, but they matter much less than in traditional MMORPGs. So...the focus is taken off of leveling in a totally different way, but the result is the same.
Will there be players who try to play GW2 like WoW, sit at level cap and ignore all the breadth of content and complain that there are no 24-man instances? Sure. But that's no a problem with the game design...it's a problem with the ingrained mentality of those players. Hopefully GW2 will provide enough little nudges to help those players change their thinking and realize what they are missing.
Your mistake is looking to much into what you see from dev videos and website articles. For what length of time have you actually sat down and played Guild Wars 2? How many dynamic events did you participate in during your playtime? How long did they last? How did they flow from one event to the next? Where there long periods of just running around looking for some event to start? What did you do in between events? What content did you miss the first time around that you felt the need to go back and work on? What random event spawned in a low level area that you never saw before? What sort of a reward did you get from completing it rather than leaving it for level appropriate players?
Secondly, what is "playing the game the way you enjoy?" I see this argument come up a lot in sandbox MMORPG forums when players ask what they're supposed to be doing. What do you do in Darkfall? "Do whatever you want!" Whatever you want usually ends up meaning grind until your eyes bleed. Of course, you get to choice what you want to grind. The reason behind this is the fact that those games have no content. Players have to pretty much make up their own content to be able to survive in those games. The real test is how can GW2 keep me interested in progressing my character through PvE without forcing me to visit old areas I've already been through just so I can make sure I see all the different dynamic events that pop up.
Of course, according to you, if players stop playing because they don't see the value in exploring old content, that's their problem, and it's a real shame they don't understand Anet's genius. That's such a smarmy comment, and honestly, it doesn't even matter how good of a system it is intended to be. If players see no value in re-exploring old zones, Anet failed to give them a sufficient reason to do so.
It's so clear to me that this is an MMORPG that has no intentions of having any longevity. Anet makes money off of huge box sales. Players get bored with the content, and then they all go play SW:TOR or TSW. Anet comes out with a content update. Anet makes money off of players buying the content update from the in-game store. Players take a couple weeks off from SW:TOR or TSW. Players complete the new content. Players go back to SW:TOR or TSW. Anet announces GW3 and content development for GW2 pretty much ends. 4 years after GW3 is announced, the game is released and the cycle repeats. If you try to play this like a sub-based MMORPG, I just don't see how you're not going to run out of content unless you're very casual or, as in the case of GW1 players, you don't mind such little new content.
I think you're totally wrong. I think they are approaching longevity in a completely different way than the WoW-formula dictates (hence the problems a lot of people are having with wrapping their heads around it). GW2 will approach longevity in terms of building a server-wide community and facilitating players meeting people and making new friends. It will facilitate longevity through addicting and varying fundamental game play, and through a changing world that stays fresh much longer and shows persistent consequences of player actions. They will keep players around by getting them truly invested in their own story, and the story of the world.
They'll be encouraging players to stay by enticing them with fun and community and a myriad of choices of how to play, rather than by placing an endless line of little pointless carrots in front of the player to keep them paying. Will some players take time off once they've completed everything they enjoy in the game? Certainly. But show me the MMORPG where that isn't the case. The choice to return to GW2 is a much easier one, as well...since it doesn't require starting up a subscription again.
I'm not so much approaching GW2 from the perspective of a WoW player but also as a Guild Wars player. I don't buy the whole argument that just because Anet said GW2 is an MMORPG means that it will last players just as long as WoW. GW2 is also B2P. GW1 had plenty of really good PvE content but it was still rather shallow and over pretty quickly. PvE at max level was pretty much grinding for elite skills and titles. They don't have any subscriptions to try and retain, so why would they bother with all these carrot on a stick mechanis to keep players subscribed? That's really what it boils down to. Of course, the problem with that is without those mechanics, players rarely have any reason to stick around in a game for any length of time. Even a game like Skyrim will have a much shorter lifespan than your average MMORPG simply because they have no reason to design the game to get you to "keep" playing. Dynamic events sound great, but they also sound shallow. To truly be a replacement for quest progression, it would be next to impossible to implement such a system with current technology. There would have to be thousands of such events each with equally numerous branching paths and consequences for completing or not completing an event, and your character would almost have to flow seamlessly from one event to the next rather than wondering around in the wilderness and going "whoops, there's a dragon attacking the village!" I don't buy that the current system will be anything like this at all, even though a lot of hte developer comments would indicate this. How truly dynamic is this world? How lasting are my decisions and the decisions of players around me? I remember reading similar contents about dynamic events from Trion in regards to Rift. In the end, it's a fun system though, but it's not something I see keep players' attention for a very long period of time. If you would like to hear similar comments from someone you perceive less biased, check out the latest Tales of Tyria episode where they talk about the very same thing and pretty much state that PvP will be the real point of playing GW2 just like it was in the original.
Without any interest in PvP, players will grow tired of the limited options for PvE at the end of the leveling process, and they'll stop playing until the next content update is available in the cash shop. Again, nothing wrong with this. GW1 is still going, but it's irrelevant at this point, having not seen a major content update in almost 4 years. With so much riding on GW2 on this website to be the savior of the genre, I do feel that there will be a lot of disappointment.
I'm fairly stunned that you are willing to spend the time and energy to type that many words, but you aren't willing to spend a small fraction of that same time and energy to learn about the game you're discussing.
I think we'll have to agree to disagree (read: I'm tired of talking when you clearly aren't listening).
I'm fairly stunned that you are willing to spend the time and energy to type that many words, but you aren't willing to spend a small fraction of that same time and energy to learn about the game you're discussing.
I think we'll have to agree to disagree (read: I'm tired of talking when you clearly aren't listening).
I'm in college. I read enough as it is. I provide a point. You provide a counter point. You fail to do that, you loose the argument. That is how a debate works.
Originally posted by SuperXero89 Originally posted by Fozzik I'm fairly stunned that you are willing to spend the time and energy to type that many words, but you aren't willing to spend a small fraction of that same time and energy to learn about the game you're discussing.
I think we'll have to agree to disagree (read: I'm tired of talking when you clearly aren't listening).
I'm in college. I read enough as it is. I provide a point. You provide a counter point. You fail to do that, you loose the argument. That is how a debate works. Thank you, goodbye.
Or, in your case, an argument works like this:
You enter a thread and make a post which contains lots of assumptions based on misinformation and an admitted lack of knowledge of the subject, and confused conclusions based on nothing. People make honest attempts to enlighten you, provide explanation and information to alleviate your ignorance. You don't listen and post even more contradictory, misinformed statements. People give up and go find better things to do.
If you can't be bothered to do even basic research on a topic you feel a need to discuss, I can't be bothered with wasting any more of my time trying to enlighten you. If you actually read mine and others' posts in this thread, most of your questions have been answered, your misinformed points have been refuted with fact, and your conclusions have been shown to be illogical. As long as you steadfastly ignore all of that, it's pretty much impossible to have a discussion.
I'm fairly stunned that you are willing to spend the time and energy to type that many words, but you aren't willing to spend a small fraction of that same time and energy to learn about the game you're discussing.
I think we'll have to agree to disagree (read: I'm tired of talking when you clearly aren't listening).
I'm in college. I read enough as it is. I provide a point. You provide a counter point. You fail to do that, you loose the argument. That is how a debate works.
Thank you, goodbye.
Or, in your case, an argument works like this:
You enter a thread and make a post which contains lots of assumptions based on misinformation and an admitted lack of knowledge of the subject, and confused conclusions based on nothing. People make honest attempts to enlighten you, provide explanation and information to alleviate your ignorance. You don't listen and post even more contradictory, misinformed statements. People give up and go find better things to do.
If you can't be bothered to do even basic research on a topic you feel a need to discuss, I can't be bothered with wasting any more of my time trying to enlighten you. If you actually read mine and others' posts in this thread, most of your questions have been answered, your misinformed points have been refuted with fact, and your conclusions have been shown to be illogical. As long as you steadfastly ignore all of that, it's pretty much impossible to have a discussion.
Seems like you could easily rip my argument apart, but you still fail to do so.
On the assumptions comment though, that's all any of us can do. I assume one way. I have reasons to assume one way. You assume one way. You have reasons to assume one way. What is with you people that think you know by 100% exactly what this game is going to be like when we honestly know so little about "how" any of these really cool sounding features are actually going to work?
It's easy to ignore criticism by turning up your nose and claiming I don't know what I'm talking about. Maybe I don't, but you're not going a very good job proving it.
I'm fairly stunned that you are willing to spend the time and energy to type that many words, but you aren't willing to spend a small fraction of that same time and energy to learn about the game you're discussing.
I think we'll have to agree to disagree (read: I'm tired of talking when you clearly aren't listening).
I'm in college. I read enough as it is. I provide a point. You provide a counter point. You fail to do that, you loose the argument. That is how a debate works.
Thank you, goodbye.
For it to work like that your point has to be logical in the first place.
You keep going on about how you doubt Guild Wars 2 is going to offer as much content as a sub-based game like WoW or TOR.
What is completely illogical is the fact that even a small child in elementary school would know that any revenue generated from a subscription after that game is launched doesn't do shit in helping the devs make more content for when the game does launch.
Your question and the point you are trying to make make no logical sense whatsoever and fail on the basic level.
I have raised questions that have yet to be answered. The only answers I get are cries that I'm an idiot because I don't know what I'm talking about.
Of course, I'm not even going to get into the whole subscriptions are a result of greedy developers debate. GW1 didn't have a subscription fee, and it did not have the content or the longevity to stay a mainstream contender in the multiplayer gaming market. In fact, the game was pretty much abandoned four years ago. Of course you say "OOOOOOOH, but Anet said GW2 is an MMORPG!" True, but I could say a word processing program I just built is an MMORPG, and that would be accurate because I have control over how I want my own program to be classified. The MMORPG part is, I feel, Anet's way of saying "hey, not all areas outside the town are instanced anymore!" The fact remains that Anet has zero interest in retaining players because they're not getting money from them on a monthly basis. Seems pretty logical why their game wouldn't have content designed to keep people playing for a long time.
I'm fairly stunned that you are willing to spend the time and energy to type that many words, but you aren't willing to spend a small fraction of that same time and energy to learn about the game you're discussing.
I think we'll have to agree to disagree (read: I'm tired of talking when you clearly aren't listening).
I'm in college. I read enough as it is. I provide a point. You provide a counter point. You fail to do that, you loose the argument. That is how a debate works.
Thank you, goodbye.
Or, in your case, an argument works like this:
You enter a thread and make a post which contains lots of assumptions based on misinformation and an admitted lack of knowledge of the subject, and confused conclusions based on nothing. People make honest attempts to enlighten you, provide explanation and information to alleviate your ignorance. You don't listen and post even more contradictory, misinformed statements. People give up and go find better things to do.
If you can't be bothered to do even basic research on a topic you feel a need to discuss, I can't be bothered with wasting any more of my time trying to enlighten you. If you actually read mine and others' posts in this thread, most of your questions have been answered, your misinformed points have been refuted with fact, and your conclusions have been shown to be illogical. As long as you steadfastly ignore all of that, it's pretty much impossible to have a discussion.
Seems like you could easily rip my argument apart, but you still fail to do so.
On the assumptions comment though, that's all any of us can do. I assume one way. I have reasons to assume one way. You assume one way. You have reasons to assume one way. What is with you people that think you know by 100% exactly what this game is going to be like when we honestly know so little about "how" any of these really cool sounding features are actually going to work?
It's easy to ignore criticism by turning up your nose and claiming I don't know what I'm talking about. Maybe I don't, but you're not going a very good job proving it.
Until the ANet gives any information, niether he nor you are right or wrong. So just right now you are just assuming it will not have content like GW1 and the other person thinks otherwise, until you have concrete evidence, I do not think ither of you should be starting a troll session.
The truth may be puzzling. It may take some work to grapple with. It may be counterintuitive. It may contradict deeply held prejudices. It may not be consonant with what we desperately want to be true. But our preferences do not determine what's true.
I'm fairly stunned that you are willing to spend the time and energy to type that many words, but you aren't willing to spend a small fraction of that same time and energy to learn about the game you're discussing.
I think we'll have to agree to disagree (read: I'm tired of talking when you clearly aren't listening).
I'm in college. I read enough as it is. I provide a point. You provide a counter point. You fail to do that, you loose the argument. That is how a debate works.
Thank you, goodbye.
For it to work like that your point has to be logical in the first place.
You keep going on about how you doubt Guild Wars 2 is going to offer as much content as a sub-based game like WoW or TOR.
What is completely illogical is the fact that even a small child in elementary school would know that any revenue generated from a subscription after that game is launched doesn't do shit in helping the devs make more content for when the game does launch.
Your question and the point you are trying to make make no logical sense whatsoever and fail on the basic level.
I have raised questions that have yet to be answered. The only answers I get are cries that I'm an idiot because I don't know what I'm talking about.
Of course, I'm not even going to get into the whole subscriptions are a result of greedy developers debate. GW1 didn't have a subscription fee, and it did not have the content or the longevity to stay a mainstream contender in the multiplayer gaming market. In fact, the game was pretty much abandoned four years ago. Of course you say "OOOOOOOH, but Anet said GW2 is an MMORPG!" True, but I could say a word processing program I just built is an MMORPG, and that would be accurate because I have control over how I want my own program to be classified. The MMORPG part is, I feel, Anet's way of saying "hey, not all areas outside the town are instanced anymore!" The fact remains that Anet has zero interest in retaining players because they're not getting money from them on a monthly basis. Seems pretty logical why their game wouldn't have content designed to keep people playing for a long time.
You can't whine and moan about how people might be calling you an idiot or saying your statements illogical when you say something like this.
Do you work at ArenaNet? Do you have access to information that nobody else that is here does? No. You don't. Stop giving bullshit excuses and making illogical statements.
ArenaNet seems to care enough about retaining a player base that they decided to make a sequel to their original game and improve on what they see as flaws in the genre.
And your whole "GW2 isn't an MMO just because Anet said it is" argument?
Your comparison is extremely childish and stupid. You can't claim something like a word processing program is an MMO and have people accept just because you say so. ArenaNet have given infallible proof as to why Guild Wars 2 is an MMO.
GW1 wasn't abandoned 4 years ago. ArenaNet halted development on it and started development on its sequel. They have also been releasing free content packs in the time that they have been working on Guild Wars 2.
Its actually starting to get pretty annoying seeing your name pop up in the Guild Wars 2 section on this site. You are always going on and on about your same illogical argument that you can never seem to properly back up.
I'm fairly stunned that you are willing to spend the time and energy to type that many words, but you aren't willing to spend a small fraction of that same time and energy to learn about the game you're discussing.
I think we'll have to agree to disagree (read: I'm tired of talking when you clearly aren't listening).
I'm in college. I read enough as it is. I provide a point. You provide a counter point. You fail to do that, you loose the argument. That is how a debate works.
Thank you, goodbye.
For it to work like that your point has to be logical in the first place.
You keep going on about how you doubt Guild Wars 2 is going to offer as much content as a sub-based game like WoW or TOR.
What is completely illogical is the fact that even a small child in elementary school would know that any revenue generated from a subscription after that game is launched doesn't do shit in helping the devs make more content for when the game does launch.
Your question and the point you are trying to make make no logical sense whatsoever and fail on the basic level.
I have raised questions that have yet to be answered. The only answers I get are cries that I'm an idiot because I don't know what I'm talking about.
Of course, I'm not even going to get into the whole subscriptions are a result of greedy developers debate. GW1 didn't have a subscription fee, and it did not have the content or the longevity to stay a mainstream contender in the multiplayer gaming market. In fact, the game was pretty much abandoned four years ago. Of course you say "OOOOOOOH, but Anet said GW2 is an MMORPG!" True, but I could say a word processing program I just built is an MMORPG, and that would be accurate because I have control over how I want my own program to be classified. The MMORPG part is, I feel, Anet's way of saying "hey, not all areas outside the town are instanced anymore!" The fact remains that Anet has zero interest in retaining players because they're not getting money from them on a monthly basis. Seems pretty logical why their game wouldn't have content designed to keep people playing for a long time.
You can't whine and moan about how people might be calling you an idiot or saying your statements illogical when you say something like this.
Do you work at ArenaNet? Do you have access to information that nobody else that is here does? No. You don't. Stop giving bullshit excuses and making illogical statements.
That is logical. It's called the theory of reasoning. Based on what we know, it is perfectly logical to deduce such a statement. I'm still waiting to hear someone tell me what is going to keep PvE players so busy progressing their characters once they finish leveling.
ArenaNet seems to care enough about retaining a player base that they decided to make a sequel to their original game and improve on what they see as flaws in the genre.
They announced GW2 forever ago, and after that, not one single major expansion was released for GW1 and the content updates were minimal at best. GW1's last retail expansion was released in 2007 -- just two short years after the game was released. That's why the game is currently so irrelevant. What do we have to go on that makes us think the same thing won't happen to GW2?
And your whole "GW2 isn't an MMO just because Anet said it is" argument?
Your comparison is extremely childish and stupid. You can't claim something like a word processing program is an MMO and have people accept just because you say so. ArenaNet have given infallible proof as to why Guild Wars 2 is an MMO.
Look at this website. GW1 technically isn't an MMORPG. Diablo III technically isn't an MMORPG. ABP technically isn't an MMORPG. My example aside, what constitutes an MMORPG means a lot of different things to a lot of different people. There's not a lot of things set in stone that makes an MMORPG what it is. I never said GW2 wasn't an MMORPG. My standards for the genre aren't so high as to where I won't admit a game unless it meets some personal criteria. If a developer tells me the game is an MMORPG, and it's online, I'm gonna say it's an MMORPG. My arguement is simply I doubt this game will have the longevity of a WoW or of a Rift or a SW:TOR.
GW1 wasn't abandoned 4 years ago. ArenaNet halted development on it and started development on its sequel. They have also been releasing free content packs in the time that they have been working on Guild Wars 2.
How much new content has been developed in that window of time between EoTN's release and now? Can we say that it has seen the same amount of content updates as WoW? Surely if GW1 was still getting tons of content updates, people wouldn't have gotten so bored with it, and it would still be as popular as it was before EoTN ran its course.
Its actually starting to get pretty annoying seeing your name pop up in the Guild Wars 2 section on this site. You are always going on and on about your same illogical argument that you can never seem to properly back up.
But they're never refuted. People like you just come in here and say they're not debating with me because I'm illogical.
I believe his doubts could be summarized to the following:
1.) Why would a higher level player want to experience lower level content? What are the meaningful purposes of going back?
2.) Why do you assume that everyone likes the idea of being scaled down to keep content challenging?
3.) Why do you assume people will socialize more? The average MMO player usually cares mostly about completing content. Sure, people will probably make use of these cross-profession combos and the open grouping, but why would that magically make people start socializing as opposed to just using each other to get by content more efficiently?
4.) Why do you believe Guild Wars 2 will have great amounts of replayability? This ties in with doubt #1.
Frankly, his concerns are justifiable because many people don't want to go back to lower level zones as a higher level character, they want to move on. Many people don't want to be challenged by the same content they did when they were lower level, they want to feel powerful and feel that their character actual grew in meaningful ways throughout the leveling process. Many people don't care about vanity items, achievements, and skins and desire more concrete forms of progression, like constantly getting their stats higher. Finally, many people simply don't care about socializing with others, no matter what.
Comments
From what I have heard, it is still a problem. Like in Guild Wars 1, people are stating that gaining items w/ the max stats will be relatively easy while the real challenge will be getting the skin you want. That just doesn't cut it for me and makes the progression feel too superficial and insignificant.
Regarding leveling and character growth, WoW is a rather bad example since the only thing you can do when you level is gain an ability (usually just an ability rank), some stat boosts, and maybe a talent point. In games like DDO, for example, one level can completely change the way you play your character. You can achieve a powerful new feat, develop a new type of skill, gain a new prestige "class", gain new and powerful spells, distribute your attribute points, or choose a totally different class.
Guild Wars 2's leveling and item progression just seem weak.
As to that only time will tell. The thing is, in GW the weapons never really had many stats to begin with. Just from watching a few vidoes and reading the information, GW2's weapons already have more going on than they did In GW1. You are entitled to your opinion and free to judge GW2 based on GW1, but it would be a shame since the only thing they share is world and lore.
I know what you mean about the gear improvements making your progression feel superficial, but keep in mind that after lev cap there are still skills you are working towards and that is a different type of character growth that I feel is better than a new shiny weapon. I know most of the MMO's I have played have been about raiding and getting those new epics to make me feel special. None of them have had new skills I could learn after capping so this makes me feel that the character progression and growth still comes, just in a different form.
/edit I also wanted to add, since we are on the subject of weapons, that the weapons themselves, stats aside, also play a significant role in your characters abilities. A warrior with a sword and board won't be the same as a warrior with a hammer and shield. This doesn't have a lot to do with the discussion of character progression. But keep in mind that GW2's skill progression requires use of said weapons to unlock their skills. This means that a characters skills progress after level cap. Some call this needless grind but cmon. Is it really all that different than raid grinding for something new to put on your character? At least with skills I can potentially change how my character plays rather than just how he looks.
RIP Jimmy "The Rev" Sullivan and Paul Gray.
It would go against their design philosophy, however. ArenaNet is trying to remove the grind for statistical improvements, but in doing so, I feel they would make item progression rather shallow.
If you are someone who enjoys the WoW-formula casual/solo progression system, with all it's linear and stale quests intact and a raid gear grind to look forward to at max level, there are certainly plenty of games available to choose from. I'm very glad GW2 is trying something different.
In the end, fanboys and skeptics alike are going to have to try it. It's really too different and too complex for anyone to predict with absolute certainty whether they will enjoy it or not, whether it will last or not, etc.
For myself, that sense of progression comes from much more than just gear and some numbers associated with my character. I like to progress in terms of exploration and learning about the world. I like to progress in knowledge and skill as a player. I like to progress in building a reputation among a worthwhile community, and contributing to that community in various ways. I like to progress in building my character's backstory and developing their personality.
This isn't to say I don't also like levels and loot...but I think the trade-off GW2 is making is a good one. Levels will be less significant, yes, and loot will play a somewhat different role...but being able to do any content any time, and being able to play with people anytime regardless of level...those are some HUGE improvements in my mind. I love the idea of more horizontal advancement as well... more breadth that doesn't separate the player base so that there are less barriers to an overall community.
It's not a matter of progression being shallow, it's just a matter of progression being different. Depth doesn't have to come from a linear statistical ladder...it can also come from an ever-growing toolbox with which to approach things in new ways.
Damn you quoted me while I had another thought.
In a way it could be seen as going against their philosophy. But as I understand it, their philosophy is to take away FORCING to grind for things. These skill aquisitions are as optional as gear aquisition past level cap. These are something to achieve and strive for rather than things you are being forced to do. They have taken out the need to gear grind as well as exp grind so I don't exactly see optional stuff as breaking their philosophy. But that's just how I take it. In traditional games you had to gear grind to get to a certain readiness just to raid. In GW2 you don't need these skills just to be able to run the dungeons/world boss DE's. I guess it's all how you interprate it.
RIP Jimmy "The Rev" Sullivan and Paul Gray.
The original Guild Wars went for stat breadth, rather than stat depth of weapons. There was a large variety of various effects that weapons could have, but the max power capped out fairly quickly. So if by depth you mean 'The numbers only go so high', then yes, pretty shallow. If you mean depth as in 'what all you can do with the weapons', then GW1 was surprisingly deep, and GW2 looks to have all that and more.
One man's 'shallow item progression' is another man's 'Oh thank god I don't have to waste 60+ hours of my life a week for months just keeping up with constantly scaling numbers'.
It's a design philosophy, and if you don't like it, that's the price I'm willing to pay to make myself and other like-minded people happy.
It's not a "WoW-formula casual/solo progression system." Item progression dates back to the very first RPG's. It's something that makes the world more believable, adds another meaningful facet to character progression and customization, adds replayability, adds an element surprise, mystery, and excitement ("Will that monster give me a special weapon?"), among other things. Done properly, where there is a balance between player skill and character stats, a balance between the availability of powerful items and more common ones, and a balance between the methods for obtaining these items, then they will just add to the game and make progression more complex.
For what it's worth, advancement in something like old style RPG games (Pen and paper) is more complex.
Advancement in MMOs is mostly math. Is a +500 sword better than a +400 sword?
Do the math. I'd be more impressed by your argument if the vast majority of MMO advancement wasn't 'Will I find an item that gives me somewhat higher numbers'. Higher numbers of course being the end all and be all of the fantasy/science fiction genre.
I remember the part in Star Wars where Luke Skywalker went questing for his +18 lightsaber, and after the Lord of the Rings, the thousands of bonus chapters they dedicated to Frodo and Samwise finding increasingly incrementally better equipment.
(that WAS what the Silmarillion was about, wasn't it?)
I just want to clarify some things, not just to you but going back to some things that were said earlier.
The game scales you down in level when taking on lower level content, but not all the way. Like if you go to a level 5 DE, you'll be the equivalent of a level 8. You'll be powerful, but not so much that you can one-shot everything.
Also, the game doesn't automatically scale you up in power, though you can do that by manually sidekicking to another player who is that level. I've linked this earlier in the thread, but this is some people trying to do an event which is higher level than they are (the text for it in the upper right hand corner is red). They are definitely struggling. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vsUcGBL56Ng
As far as the joys of leveling go, gear does have stats and slots for upgrade components. You raise attributes (and can swap them around outside combat). You automatically gain new ranks of skills (they took out buying them), you can acquire new skills and traits in the world by going out and accomplishing feats (details are hazy and possibly being adjusted at this point). So I think there are definitely going to be things to do.
There will almost certainly be some kind of power plateau where after that it's about vanity, perhaps minor upgrades, or breadth of power. It's funny, in this blog post http://www.arena.net/blog/a-rewarding-experience-john-hargrove-talks-about-loot under the section about "rewards should be worth obtaining", they talk about how each dungeon has unique armor and weapon skins, not mentioning stats at all.
It's funny, I think in all my time in GW1, I only ever made the basic statistical gear, it's not something that interests me to put in the effort for the vanity skins. But what's funny is that I don't think I've ever seen a toon in a city that is wearing the same armor I am, so I guess people really do get into it.
"Gamers will no longer buy the argument that every MMO requires a subscription fee to offset server and bandwidth costs. It's not true you know it, and they know it." -Jeff Strain, co-founder of ArenaNet, 2007
SWTOR was the seconding coming until is wasn't. Now GW2 is the next greatest game and wow killer until reality hits. Then it might be Archeage or something else.
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
Weapons in real life don't have pluses to stats. No matter how nice a sword it is, it doesn't actually give you more agility or strength. There's nothing inherently more realistic about a gear grind.
In most fantasy I've read, nobody gets new gear and weapons every couple hours which are incrementally better than the ones they had before...so it's not inherently more "high fantasy" either.
It's just the way that it's been done. The reason I mentioned the WoW formula is that because of WoW's success, pretty much every company who has wanted to do those mechanics has done them the same way WoW did. Could it be done differently and strike some perfect balance that provided the best of all worlds? Maybe...but I certainly haven't seen that happen and I wouldn't hold my breath.
There's a big difference between the theory behind some mechanics and how they actually work. There's always going to be a trade-off, and having gear stat progression isn't necessarily better. you might like it better...but like I said, I'm looking for something different, and I think a lot of other people are too. The benefits GW2 will offer, and the dramatically different way that players will be able to approach the game, are worth the potential loss of that one single type of progression (among the many).
Don't forget...although GW2 will be handling progression differently...that doesn't mean there won't be traditional progression. There are levels. There's are stats. There are skills and traits and weapon and gear with stats.
True, most MMO's don't have a very impressive system for item progression. It is not to say however that such is impossible. Make the player consider a variety of factors when choosing their weapons, not just if one has more "attack power" than the other or whatever. Make weapons, for instance, have stats that determine swing speed, swing strength, durability, sharpness, weight, hardness, resistance, size, composition, etc. That way, it becomes a lot more complex choosing the right weapon for a certain playstyle. Want to play like a rogue that backstabs people? Get a weapon that is sharp, small (for concealment purposes), and that can be drawn and stowed away very quickly. This is just a crude example to help illustrate how item progression can be very complex.
Movies in general are a terrible comparison since they have limited runtimes and generally show things more related to the story. However, in Lord of the Rings, Frodo and the rest of the Fellowship do indeed come into the possession of valuable and powerful items like Galadriel's bow and Bilbo's mithril chain mail.
I'm fairly stunned that you are willing to spend the time and energy to type that many words, but you aren't willing to spend a small fraction of that same time and energy to learn about the game you're discussing.
I think we'll have to agree to disagree (read: I'm tired of talking when you clearly aren't listening).
I'm in college. I read enough as it is. I provide a point. You provide a counter point. You fail to do that, you loose the argument. That is how a debate works.
Thank you, goodbye.
Thank you, goodbye.
Or, in your case, an argument works like this:
You enter a thread and make a post which contains lots of assumptions based on misinformation and an admitted lack of knowledge of the subject, and confused conclusions based on nothing. People make honest attempts to enlighten you, provide explanation and information to alleviate your ignorance. You don't listen and post even more contradictory, misinformed statements. People give up and go find better things to do.
If you can't be bothered to do even basic research on a topic you feel a need to discuss, I can't be bothered with wasting any more of my time trying to enlighten you. If you actually read mine and others' posts in this thread, most of your questions have been answered, your misinformed points have been refuted with fact, and your conclusions have been shown to be illogical. As long as you steadfastly ignore all of that, it's pretty much impossible to have a discussion.
Hey guys lets refrain from baiting others into personal attacks. Thanks.
Seems like you could easily rip my argument apart, but you still fail to do so.
On the assumptions comment though, that's all any of us can do. I assume one way. I have reasons to assume one way. You assume one way. You have reasons to assume one way. What is with you people that think you know by 100% exactly what this game is going to be like when we honestly know so little about "how" any of these really cool sounding features are actually going to work?
It's easy to ignore criticism by turning up your nose and claiming I don't know what I'm talking about. Maybe I don't, but you're not going a very good job proving it.
I have raised questions that have yet to be answered. The only answers I get are cries that I'm an idiot because I don't know what I'm talking about.
Of course, I'm not even going to get into the whole subscriptions are a result of greedy developers debate. GW1 didn't have a subscription fee, and it did not have the content or the longevity to stay a mainstream contender in the multiplayer gaming market. In fact, the game was pretty much abandoned four years ago. Of course you say "OOOOOOOH, but Anet said GW2 is an MMORPG!" True, but I could say a word processing program I just built is an MMORPG, and that would be accurate because I have control over how I want my own program to be classified. The MMORPG part is, I feel, Anet's way of saying "hey, not all areas outside the town are instanced anymore!" The fact remains that Anet has zero interest in retaining players because they're not getting money from them on a monthly basis. Seems pretty logical why their game wouldn't have content designed to keep people playing for a long time.
Until the ANet gives any information, niether he nor you are right or wrong. So just right now you are just assuming it will not have content like GW1 and the other person thinks otherwise, until you have concrete evidence, I do not think ither of you should be starting a troll session.
The truth may be puzzling. It may take some work to grapple with. It may be counterintuitive. It may contradict deeply held prejudices. It may not be consonant with what we desperately want to be true. But our preferences do not determine what's true.
Carl Sagan-
You can't whine and moan about how people might be calling you an idiot or saying your statements illogical when you say something like this.
Do you work at ArenaNet? Do you have access to information that nobody else that is here does? No. You don't. Stop giving bullshit excuses and making illogical statements.
ArenaNet seems to care enough about retaining a player base that they decided to make a sequel to their original game and improve on what they see as flaws in the genre.
And your whole "GW2 isn't an MMO just because Anet said it is" argument?
Your comparison is extremely childish and stupid. You can't claim something like a word processing program is an MMO and have people accept just because you say so. ArenaNet have given infallible proof as to why Guild Wars 2 is an MMO.
GW1 wasn't abandoned 4 years ago. ArenaNet halted development on it and started development on its sequel. They have also been releasing free content packs in the time that they have been working on Guild Wars 2.
Its actually starting to get pretty annoying seeing your name pop up in the Guild Wars 2 section on this site. You are always going on and on about your same illogical argument that you can never seem to properly back up.
I want a mmorpg experience without having to deal with a subscription or wallet shrinking pay to win cash shop.
Guild Wars 2 offers that. This is why im hyped on top of some other things like the removal of classic roles (tank, healer).
and the decision to not add progressive raiding.
Playing: Nothing
Looking forward to: Nothing
Am I upsetting you?
I believe his doubts could be summarized to the following:
1.) Why would a higher level player want to experience lower level content? What are the meaningful purposes of going back?
2.) Why do you assume that everyone likes the idea of being scaled down to keep content challenging?
3.) Why do you assume people will socialize more? The average MMO player usually cares mostly about completing content. Sure, people will probably make use of these cross-profession combos and the open grouping, but why would that magically make people start socializing as opposed to just using each other to get by content more efficiently?
4.) Why do you believe Guild Wars 2 will have great amounts of replayability? This ties in with doubt #1.
Frankly, his concerns are justifiable because many people don't want to go back to lower level zones as a higher level character, they want to move on. Many people don't want to be challenged by the same content they did when they were lower level, they want to feel powerful and feel that their character actual grew in meaningful ways throughout the leveling process. Many people don't care about vanity items, achievements, and skins and desire more concrete forms of progression, like constantly getting their stats higher. Finally, many people simply don't care about socializing with others, no matter what.