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My opinion, you can call it a wake up call
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Never said that a formula or strategy couldn't be refined more than once. Did you see me write that? Of course you didn't. It wasn't there.
I think we can all agree, though, that there is a reason that WoW is losing subscribers, and that Titan is being developed, and that MMOs are emerging that are beginning to take on semblances of originality (if such things exist in this industry anymore). It is because even Blizzard is recognising that its marketing equation, however intricate and regularly-renovated, cannot last indefinitely.
The World of Warcraft Business Plan IS a business plan, and like an oil well that was once a vast source of wealth, this flow is beginning to stem. EA, despite Bioware's involvement, IS ultimately EA Games - it is in charge, and it is after some serious profit to outweigh its production costs. Bioware may be known for its creativity, but it's EA-Bioware now: it ultimately isn't the one steering, and if you believe that this game will sacrifice profit for the sake of creativity, than you are sorely mistaken.
I never said it could not be innovated upon multiple times. But the spell that WoW has blanketed the industry in...is finally...out of mana.
PS: Love how you only linked my conclusion, instead of drawing attention to my overall case.
I'm really sick of the whole "There's a massive fanbase for X", or "Y would be a WoW-killer if it just had a chance".
There is no massive conspiracy waiting in the MMO playerbase.
There are no "sleeper-agent fans" waiting to convert once the X or Y is unleashed on the world.
It's not a WoW clone because WoW didn't happen in space.
WoW clone this, WoW clone that, I'm tired of hearing it.
You know? for being so into innovation these "WoW clone" arguments are pretty old and stale. They've been done thousands of times over and over, for every themepark game.
I've heard it so many times it carries no weight with me, it's just a tired and old argument that is barely even relevant to anyone's enjoyment of an actual game.
Maybe people that scream WoW clone at every new launch should stop worrying about if these devs are innovating, and start innovating in their debates. You can say it 100,000,000 times...I still don't care.
Shadow's Hand Guild
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This was an oddity. I had a long chat with a buddy of mine who is totally addicted to wow, he has been for the past few years now.
I mentioned to him about switching to swtor and his answer surprised me. He said "if it was anything like galaxies bioware can go f**k 'emselves".
Turns out he would rather play a game where he is led by the nose than one which allows a player too much freedom (sandbox). At that point I had to explain to him that swtor is essentially star wars built over a wowesque substrate, that he would indeed be led by the nose.
Not sure I fully convinced him, he still has swg phobia's (btw he quit way before nge so it aint a sony-hate thing).
I stopped reading at
"The combat system is a bit different but after you get used to it, and I mean used to timing your skills and so on, then it will become just as boring as Wow's."
wow combat is not boring, thats only an opinion, imo its so fun i spent years and years playing wow and killing stuff for the fun of it.
And ArenaNet is owned by NCsoft, and guess what, I'd trust EA any day of the week over NCsoft. Oh and btw, we all know just how innovative and creative those south korean games are. Gezz, ever wonder why all those GW xpacs looked just like the rest of the stuff coming out of Korea. Just look at who owns the company their business plan.
Since GW2 is the only thing out there right now that can remotely compete with SWTOR, and that in and of itself is just a pipe dream, I wouldnt be so fast to point out which devs work for this company or that cause NCsoft/ArenaNet has nothing on EA, Bioware or Blizzard. Maybe if and when they can actually put together a game that doesnt fade away to the fringes just as soon as it is released they can say they can compete with the real movers of the industry.
As for your comment about WoWs spell finally slowing down, better to slow down after 6 years at the summit than to spend that same amount of time still dreaming about even seeing the mountain.
Yeah, you actually did say that. If you meant something else, then you worded it poorly. If I misinterpreted, my apologies. But here you go:
However, I am afraid that it seems this anomaly can only work once. The whole concept of WoW Clone originated due to the fact that other companies, upon seeing WoW's success, not only tried to replicate this profit with smaller budgets and less polish, but basically tried to refine arefinement.
Lets look at Mathematics for our example: once you have reached the simplest form of a fraction (eg. 2/8 to 1/4], you cannot break it down into a simpler whole solution. You can break it down into decimals, but that's another mathematical sector.
The point is, EA and Bioware, despite having massive budgets and advanced technology and personell, are falling for the same catch as others have before them: they are trying to recreate and add their own personal flair to an equation that has already been perfected and used to its end - like a lifeguard trying to give CPR to a guy who's been dead for a month, if you will.
Anyway, here is the deal: WoW is losing subscribers not because the MMO market is changing, but because Blizzard has stopped producing quality. Do you think that the MMO market has suddenly just shifted in the last year, like suddenly all the MMO players have had some kind of epiphany? Because, if your argument is correct, then it must have been a pretty sudden and dramatic shift that has taken place ONLY over the course of this last year since until that time, WoW had been actually GAINING subs every single year. It's not the market that has changed, it's Blizzard.
What Bioware decided to do is this: Secure the rights to one of the most popular IPs in history, and then cater it to the largest population of mmo gamers: The casuals. That's it. The themepark game is STILL the most popular style of mmorpg out there. I know people on this site like to act like there is some big revolution coming and the time of the themepark MMO is over, but it's simply not true. 10 million players in WoW would attest to that. Can another style of game come along and provide enough innovation to capture that casual crowd without the need for the "Wow formula?" Sure. But so far, it hasn't been accomplished. And Bioware has decided to go with the tried and true formula.
The reason we haven't seen any hugely popular themeparks in recent years isn't because that style of mmorpg is dying, it's because the companies who have attempted them haven't delivered very good games. Arguments can be made for games like LOTRO, Aion, and Rift being successful games, and they are, but not quite as successful as they could have been. But Bioware has A LOT of money behind this game, and has chosen to put it into the existing "money-maker" formula, but improve upon what is out there. Not massive, incredibly innovative changes, but a solid step up from what is currently out there. Now that may disappoint you, and may disappoint other so-called "hardcore" gamers, but when SWTOR has a couple million subscribers retained, I think it will be shown that this is still a very, very viable market for that type of game.
And as for your point about EA wanting to make a profit: Well...no shit. But don't for a second think that their need to turn a profit is mutually exclusive for their intent on putting out a solid, polished, mmorpg. In fact, those two things pretty much go hand in hand if a company is truly serious about long term success. Blizzard proved that much with WoW.
So, best advice I can give you is to find a game that suits your taste. But you are going to find that Bioware has indeed made the correct decision on what type of game to release, even if it isn't a decision that will appeal to the snobby elite amongst the mmo gaming community.
I agree with some of your claims, but why you lie to us? If you were 12 years on the mmo stage, you would never compare any game to "wow". Seems wow is your first game. And even I'm disapointed more or less, I think swtor will be way better then wow.
And yet everyone of your GW2 hate posts is because you hate GW1. SO DID I !!!
GW2 is nothing like GW1 its all I want you to admit too, if you dont like it for its own merit instead of bashing it thinking its a GW1 clone, then that is fine but at least man up research the damn game realize the only thing it shares with GW1 is the world/lore. Everything else is new, innovative and deserving of praise for thinking outside the box.
Same tired and blantly UNTRUE argument that you make everytime someone claims ToR is a clone of WoW (which it is)
Everything you need to know about Elder Scrolls Online
Playing: GW2
Waiting on: TESO
Next Flop: Planetside 2
Best MMO of all time: Asheron's Call - The first company to recreate AC will be the next greatest MMO.
I will agree with most of what the OP said...except that the graphics supposedly wont look good.
I am pretty sure the graphics will not be the biggest problem. The biggest problem is that this game is just another cookie-cutter MMO....or WoW clone if you will. There....I said it.
Maybe you are seeing some small kind of difference between all theese games...but I aint.
This is pretty much coming from a Bioware fanboy (at least former fanboy) like myself.
I've been playing Neverwinter Nights 1 (NWN1) for like 7 years or so and also taken a deep look under the hood of the game by using the design tools that came with the game.
SWToR will be the FIRST multiplayer game from Bioware for 11 years and the first one since NWN1.
So...basically....I've been waiting many many years for Bioware to finally make something multiplayer again. Now when it is here....why am I not excited?
Because Bioware has become too big of a company and they can now only afford to make "what everyone wants". The time when they could lock themselves up in a cellar for a couple of years and then release groundbreaking, hardcore, no bs games like Baldur's Gate and Neverwinter Nights is over.
Buy Neverwinter Nights 1 here! | Unofficial NWN1 homepage | NWN1 guild on X-Fire
GW2 is just like GW1 in the only aspect that matters. It will end up being nothing but a over hyped moba with just enough mmo in it to so they can call it such. 90% of all the GW2 hype I have read about it is based on nothing more than how its gonna be a PvP festival. About 99% of its player base will most likely be doing just what they did in the first GW, PvP. Sorry, but I get my PvP fix just fine from LoL and thats even better than GW2s B2P cause its F2P lol.
And I just love the "clone" bull shit you guys are always ranting about lol. GW2 will have.....
Levels, check
Classes, regardless of what little pr spin you guys try to put on them, check
Class skills, check
Quest, those these will no doubt not be anywhere near the quality that SWTORS will be, check
PvP, lol, yea guess what, GW wasnt the first game to have PvP in it, check
"Dynamic Events", lol, this one is my favorite....
"Enter the living world of Guild Wars 2 - filled with thousands of dynamic events that ebb and flow through the course of your adventures. One day there may be a thriving village filled with vendors and townspeople, the next day that village may be a smoking ruin overrun by centaurs."
Wow, where have we heard that line before? Oh yea, here it is......
"Whether it’s a previously peaceful farm being ravaged by demons, a tranquil forest glen suddenly ripped apart by a violent rift, or merely an unassuming traveling merchant with astounding wares, spontaneous events are taking place all across Telara for you to discover and take part in."
GW2s soooo innovative and creative "Dynamic Events" meet Rifts "Dynamic Layered World" and we all know which came first dont we?
Fantasy setting, which btw is just funny since this right here could put GW2 as not only a WoW clone, but a clone of just about every other mmo that has ever come out, check
So yea, maybe you guys should be looking at your GW2 the next time you want to rant about something being a clone of something else.
Shadow's Hand Guild
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The Secret World - Dragons
Planetside 2 - Terran Republic
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If this is how you really feel then don't buy it... That act alone is creating the market for what you describe.
The only way, a a consumer, to change the market is to vote with your dollar. Spending £35 (or whatever) on the box definitely is not doing that.
Well, considering this game is going to have 2.5 to 3 million units sold at launch AND has been receiving a very positive response from its beta testers, I'd say odds are pretty good that Bioware's formula is going to be pretty successful, despite your contention that something can only be improved upon and refined once (which is bullshit, btw).
That being said, the longevity of this game will be determined on what Bioware does post launch.
Never said that a formula or strategy couldn't be refined more than once. Did you see me write that? Of course you didn't. It wasn't there.
I think we can all agree, though, that there is a reason that WoW is losing subscribers, and that Titan is being developed, and that MMOs are emerging that are beginning to take on semblances of originality (if such things exist in this industry anymore). It is because even Blizzard is recognising that its marketing equation, however intricate and regularly-renovated, cannot last indefinitely.
The World of Warcraft Business Plan IS a business plan, and like an oil well that was once a vast source of wealth, this flow is beginning to stem. EA, despite Bioware's involvement, IS ultimately EA Games - it is in charge, and it is after some serious profit to outweigh its production costs. Bioware may be known for its creativity, but it's EA-Bioware now: it ultimately isn't the one steering, and if you believe that this game will sacrifice profit for the sake of creativity, than you are sorely mistaken.
I never said it could not be innovated upon multiple times. But the spell that WoW has blanketed the industry in...is finally...out of mana.
PS: Love how you only linked my conclusion, instead of drawing attention to my overall case.
And ArenaNet is owned by NCsoft, and guess what, I'd trust EA any day of the week over NCsoft. Oh and btw, we all know just how innovative and creative those south korean games are. Gezz, ever wonder why all those GW xpacs looked just like the rest of the stuff coming out of Korea. Just look at who owns the company their business plan.
Since GW2 is the only thing out there right now that can remotely compete with SWTOR, and that in and of itself is just a pipe dream, I wouldnt be so fast to point out which devs work for this company or that cause NCsoft/ArenaNet has nothing on EA, Bioware or Blizzard. Maybe if and when they can actually put together a game that doesnt fade away to the fringes just as soon as it is released they can say they can compete with the real movers of the industry.
As for your comment about WoWs spell finally slowing down, better to slow down after 6 years at the summit than to spend that same amount of time still dreaming about even seeing the mountain.
Note: This post goes out to my two repliers, however I will utilise the quote of the first.
Firstly, and to the first replier,
I would say that the primary reason for NCSoft's lesser place in the market would be for the precise reasons that I am interpreting in your reply: gamers from Western culture simply are less comfortable in their reception of games in Asia. However, I would like to point out that my main criticisms of SW:TOR revolve around the way it has been promoted, and the game's use of what I consider to be severely-aged concepts, NOT THOSE BEHIND ITS CREATION so much.
I once again refer to the Skinner Box experiment - please google it. This science, will made by an intelligent and respectful man, is the core concept behind the addictive and grind-happy nature of MMOs today. It is the master-equation that WoW built its subscriber numbers on, and it's stagnancy is becoming apparent.
Please do not make this into an argument about the designers, developers and funders of these games - I have great respect for those at Blizzard, Bioware and NCSoft equally. It is the marketing techniques and concepts they are basing their game's on that I dislike.
Which lead's me neatly onto the second replier: I apologise. I probably did word that a bit confusingly - it happens with long forum posts of mine. Just to clarify - I am not predicting the failure of SW:TOR, or the success of GW2. For all I know, Guild Wars 2 could become the bomb of the year, and all that SW:TOR has to offer may not be completely apparent to me until I HAVE played it. However, my concerns lie exclusively with the abuse of World of Warcraft's success path.
Bioware's founders have specifically stated the company's intent to keep true to the "WoW rules" which Blizzard built its blockbuster on, and my complaints revolve solely around the overuse of the WoW Equation. I do believe that good ideas can be innovated upon and refined far beyond their original form, and multiple times.
However, I have no desire to see companies and developers continuing to utilise an aged, outdated and addiction-rewarding strategy as the core concept of their products. I believe we have the technology and resources to make something more innovative - we just need to break out of a purely economic reward-over-risk mindset.
I find it quite funny - that is, the amount of people who complain that WoW clones are rampant, and that no games provide new gameplay in this industry. Innovation will not happen until we close our wallets, take a good hard think and purge the unnecessary concepts of yesteryears out of our systems.
I hear trolls? I say: why are you paying the people you claim to despise?
I'm really sick of the whole "There's a massive fanbase for X", or "Y would be a WoW-killer if it just had a chance".
There is no massive conspiracy waiting in the MMO playerbase.
There are no "sleeper-agent fans" waiting to convert once the X or Y is unleashed on the world.
The highlighted part says it all, really, that's the core: OP admits to being jaded, bored or maybe even burnt out on certain MMO features.
Like I've said many times, people who have burnt themselves out on themepark MMO gameplay won't suddenly find a cure for that with SWTOR. If MMO gamers can't enjoy themepark MMO gameplay anymore like the OP and lost the ability to enjoy them will very likely face the exact same problem with SWTOR.
What OP fails to realize is that not all MMO gamers are like him in that they burnt themselves out on themepark MMO's to the point of having destroyed the ability to enjoy them. A lot of people still have great fun in them, and for those people SWTOR will be a great addition to the themepark MMO staple.
For those who have become that jaded and suffer MMO fatigue from themepark MMO's, I agree that maybe TERA, GW2, ArcheAge, TSW and others might still entertain them, although that depends on how deep their burn out stretches. I know of several people already who disliked so much certain gameplay aspects in AA and TERA that resembled themepark gameplay, that those MMO's didn't do it for them as well.
EQ had a risk- reward design philosophy, WoW's success but also the complaints of hordes of (new) MMO gamers showed that if punishment or loss was introduced into the risk - reward combination, a majority of people won't like it. That's why that incentive isn't used anymore.
Innovation in itself hasn't been that large a motivator for people to play an MMORPG, there have been quite some MMORPG's that had innovations or did things differently, but still never appealed to the mainstream audience. The majority of MMO gamers won't look any further than AAA titles, however innovative an MMORPG might be, when it's not AAA most people will probably just ignore it. We'll see several AAA titles that do things differently next year, so maybe those will be able to attract a considerable portion of the MMO playerbase. We'll see.
Lol, you're just hilarious, how you try to appeal to reason and be fair and openminded towards the game you worship and not be quick in rash judgements, while at the same you're doing EXACTLY the same when it comes to a game you despise, SWTOR.
And the funniest part, you don't even realise that you are like that!
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Asian games don't sell well in America or the west? what? All the final fantasies are among the most sold games in the west. Same with street fighter,Dead rising, mega man, resident evil pretty much any capcom game. Or any konami game like Metal gear series. All the nintendo games like zelda and mario are japanese....MMOs are not the only game genre out there. As a matter of fact beside WoW MMOs are non existant in the video game community.
And as for closing out wallets as consumer, what if I like the "clone" i am playing? What if the "clone" is better than the "Innovation"? I would certainly play a better game than a bad game. And imo GW 2 looks really bad to me. I think it will fail hard but that's just my opinion. If i enjoy a game then as long as they make them, then i will buy them and play them. And appearently many people agree with me, judging by all the positive reviews. Even a lot of haters turned into lovers after the beta.
I honestly don't get all this innovation bs. If a game is good then people will play it. WoW was a great game (haters gonna hate) and 11 million people played it and enjoyed. Just as me and thousands if not millions of people enjoyed TOR beta and they will play it. So imo all of you need to stop crying and enjoy the games that you like.
Currently Playing: SSFIV AE, SFxTekken, SWTOR, WoW. Waiting for: GW2, Resident Evil 6.
Comment on the original post.
This is exactly what I told my friends after the last beta. Its exactly the same as WoW, just reskinned. Everything is identical. Someone above here somewhere wrote "im going to play this as long as I played Rift, about a month". My accurate words lol. Maybe its just me, im old and tired of the same old same old
Anyway its worth the cash for a month of entertainment.
Im going to play in the next beta if I bother to start the game
I'm with you. I've played the game and like what I see. I'd say the majority of us here have experienced the game already and made up our minds. That was our wake call, actually playing the game for ourselves.No amount of ranting from the haters is going to make me want to cancel my preorder and wait for GW2, no matter how many lies or half truths they spew.
Currently Playing: World of Warcraft
There cant be a more boring mmo then wow.
If you like SW buy it and play it, if you dont like it do something else.
SW is a good story telling mmo wich can be played solo or with other people.
I played wow for 7 years off an on, but panda's killing rabbits and monkeys in a whole instance is whats in store for the once mighty wow.
So i might play SW untill GW2 arrives.
So your dismissing any that are in any way dissatified with derivative and unimaginative game design on any level 'burn outs'?
Thats a handy way to rationalise every negative view on the game I guess... stops you from actually having to consider their views on any deeper level at least.
I personally don't think not liking aspects of this game automatically labels a poster as a 'burn out'. I personally think that they can still be deep in love with themeparks as a concept and just find SWtOR an ugly and boring game.
Themeparks can be built to be exciting, immersive, and inspiring. Wanting that in a new game doesn't make a gamer a 'burn out'.
I personally love the themepark as a genre (look at my fave games), am playing and very much enjoying one right now (CoH) and I am looking forward to new games with excitement (GW2), yet I am dissapointed in SWtOR.
Yeah man i don't care if i am playing a "clone" or "innovation" if a game is good i will play it. And if they keep making them then i will pay for them.
Currently Playing: SSFIV AE, SFxTekken, SWTOR, WoW. Waiting for: GW2, Resident Evil 6.
Basically, that is all some people are saying. They played the beta, and it was their wake up call. No amount of ranting from the fanbois is going to make them want to preorder nor not wait for some other game, no matter how many lies or half-truths they spew.
Many threads appear on the forums from that last bit. It is not only the "haters" that spew lies, half-truths, or mislead people about a game. The "fanbois" do it as well.
That is where something such as a beta or trial is a great thing, it allows folks to try it out for themselves - make that informed decision for themselves... it is a great thing.
Different people like different things - two people can look at the same thing and see something different...and that's fine.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%
What is this i don't even.....
I've never seen someone so frustrated trying to win the argument with poor reasoning.
You can all say what you want, but the responses to the OP are mostly filled with frustration and hostility. Typical fanboy behaviour: Pulling specific parts out of context so you are able to label OP negatively, constantly trying to directly attack the op instead of his arguments in a very hostile manner to try to make his OP seems false....
uhg...
So let me guess you can react to negative response to GW2 but SWTOR fans can not if someone just tell them you are wrong in enjoying a game you like and need a wake up call, hypocrite much my friend? ofcourse all the responses to OP will seem frustrated to you. You guys are hilarious, everything is fine as long as you are defending your own favorite game. Such double standards. And this pattern repeats a lot in these forums. Everyone who bashes SWTOR fans does exactly them same when they are defending their own fav games say Archage or GW2 with very same frustrated and hostile reponses.
This topic wasn't even about SWTOR VS GW2 but i guess some people just can not stop themselves from participating in pissing contest.
Sigh. Here we go again
Why the hell are you even on these forums, if you dislike SWTOR so much? Don't you have better things to do with your time, like for example spend it on games you actually DO like? Man, some people...
It's the OP's own words, 'bored gamers like us'. Yes, people who used to enjoy themepark MMO's but are now unable to enjoy that type of gameplay anymore I consider to have themselves burnt out on that type of gameplay, they've become jaded, bored, tired.
And yes, a large portion of those MMO gamers that are constantly craving for something new and innovative are exactly like that: they used to enjoy certain MMO gameplay, after playing it thousands of hours they have lost the ability to enjoy that type of gameplay. That doesn't mean that that type of gameplay isn't good anymore, after all, they've enjoyed it for years and thousands of hours. It's just that they themselves have changed, so that for them it just doesn't work anymore.
They are the ones that have changed, so that gameplay styles that used to be perfectly acceptable and immensely enjoyable for them before, now isn't anymore. However, not all MMO gamers have become burnt out on themepark MMO gameplay like them, others can still enjoy it immensely.
In short, a lot of opinions of the burnt out, jaded group doesn't say anything about the execution of the gameplay features, it can still be extremely well done for themepark gameplay, but more about their current stance towards such gameplay and their lack of being able to enjoy it anymore.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."