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Social things of grouping

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  • Lord.BachusLord.Bachus Member RarePosts: 9,686

    Originally posted by Pilnkplonk

    Originally posted by Lord.Bachus


    Originally posted by Diovidius

    OP, your exact question is answered in this slideshow: http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1013691/Designing_Guild_Wars_2_Dynamic_Events (at the Q&A part but you should watch the whole thing if you haven't already).

    Exactly that part was what made me doubt the system.... If people don't have to talk to work together, most of them will not...  You can feel very lonely surrounded by a lot of people

    Well this is exactly the reason people WILL group. The last mmo that I played seriously was WAR and they had grouping done perfectly in that game. People would group in open word events (aka public quests) all the time even though the rewards system didn't depend on grouping at all - just like in GW2. The great part of this was that you were never forced to group, but you did it because it's more fun that way and you can coordinate better and maybe stick together for another event or two.

    If you wanted to play a silent lone guy in a crowd you could do that too and the game wouldn't penalize you in any way for doing it.

    Ok, so there are formal grouping mechanics in GW2 as http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Party says but... there are  few more questions I'd like to have answered..

    Are there going to be open parties? That was a pretty revolutionary system introduced in WAR and it worked like a charm. You create a party and make it open if you wish. No more LFG's no more LFM's... You simply check for open parties in the area you're entering, choose the one that's appealing to you (maybe you know somebody or they're doing an event you're interested in...) and that's it - you're in a party going somewhere doing something.

    The second question is whether there is going to be a second level of grouping, like WAR's Warbands or WoW Raids. Imo that's a crucial thing if you're trying to coordinate large groups of players like in epic DEs and WvW. I'm really curious to see how is this going to work in GW2. In open world PvP in WAR even the 24-member warbands felt too small and it would have been great if the devs introduced a THIRD grouping level - Armies or something comprising of several warbands so instead of individuals in army display you would see the health and position of GROUPS.

    Any info on these questions, yo gurus?

     



    The only reason people will group is because they are used to it from other MMO's....

     

    Because you can fight those mobs just as good as individualls that are working together then a group..

     

    I think there might be a lot of chat in the regional .... or maybe in the encounter chats (if they are available).... 

     

    The more we're discussing here, the more i start realising is that while socialising depends a lot on the people,a huge group of those people needs an encouragement/trigger to become social...  Certain peoplelike myself will allways socialise, while others will never socialise and stick to their individuallity.... but the largest group needs to be encouraged to socialise, either by game mechanics or by socializers.... either of those triggers should work..

     

     

    Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)

  • PilnkplonkPilnkplonk Member Posts: 1,532

    Originally posted by Lord.Bachus

    Originally posted by Pilnkplonk


    Originally posted by Lord.Bachus


    Originally posted by Diovidius

    OP, your exact question is answered in this slideshow: http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1013691/Designing_Guild_Wars_2_Dynamic_Events (at the Q&A part but you should watch the whole thing if you haven't already).

    Exactly that part was what made me doubt the system.... If people don't have to talk to work together, most of them will not...  You can feel very lonely surrounded by a lot of people

    Well this is exactly the reason people WILL group. The last mmo that I played seriously was WAR and they had grouping done perfectly in that game. People would group in open word events (aka public quests) all the time even though the rewards system didn't depend on grouping at all - just like in GW2. The great part of this was that you were never forced to group, but you did it because it's more fun that way and you can coordinate better and maybe stick together for another event or two.

    If you wanted to play a silent lone guy in a crowd you could do that too and the game wouldn't penalize you in any way for doing it.

    Ok, so there are formal grouping mechanics in GW2 as http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Party says but... there are  few more questions I'd like to have answered..

    Are there going to be open parties? That was a pretty revolutionary system introduced in WAR and it worked like a charm. You create a party and make it open if you wish. No more LFG's no more LFM's... You simply check for open parties in the area you're entering, choose the one that's appealing to you (maybe you know somebody or they're doing an event you're interested in...) and that's it - you're in a party going somewhere doing something.

    The second question is whether there is going to be a second level of grouping, like WAR's Warbands or WoW Raids. Imo that's a crucial thing if you're trying to coordinate large groups of players like in epic DEs and WvW. I'm really curious to see how is this going to work in GW2. In open world PvP in WAR even the 24-member warbands felt too small and it would have been great if the devs introduced a THIRD grouping level - Armies or something comprising of several warbands so instead of individuals in army display you would see the health and position of GROUPS.

    Any info on these questions, yo gurus?

     



    The only reason people will group is because they are used to it from other MMO's....

     

    Well, I can only tell you what it was like in an actual game that utilized those same mechanics regarding grouping and rewards, both in PvE and especially in open world PvP. So the actual experience of 100s of thousands of players counts for nothing compared to your "opinion."

    Oh well... Enjoy your opinion. I mean, everyone is entitled to one.

  • Master10KMaster10K Member Posts: 3,065

    Originally posted by Lord.Bachus

    Originally posted by Pilnkplonk


    *snip*

    Well this is exactly the reason people WILL group. The last mmo that I played seriously was WAR and they had grouping done perfectly in that game. People would group in open word events (aka public quests) all the time even though the rewards system didn't depend on grouping at all - just like in GW2. The great part of this was that you were never forced to group, but you did it because it's more fun that way and you can coordinate better and maybe stick together for another event or two.

    If you wanted to play a silent lone guy in a crowd you could do that too and the game wouldn't penalize you in any way for doing it.

    Ok, so there are formal grouping mechanics in GW2 as http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Party says but... there are  few more questions I'd like to have answered..

    Are there going to be open parties? That was a pretty revolutionary system introduced in WAR and it worked like a charm. You create a party and make it open if you wish. No more LFG's no more LFM's... You simply check for open parties in the area you're entering, choose the one that's appealing to you (maybe you know somebody or they're doing an event you're interested in...) and that's it - you're in a party going somewhere doing something.

    The second question is whether there is going to be a second level of grouping, like WAR's Warbands or WoW Raids. Imo that's a crucial thing if you're trying to coordinate large groups of players like in epic DEs and WvW. I'm really curious to see how is this going to work in GW2. In open world PvP in WAR even the 24-member warbands felt too small and it would have been great if the devs introduced a THIRD grouping level - Armies or something comprising of several warbands so instead of individuals in army display you would see the health and position of GROUPS.

    Any info on these questions, yo gurus?



    The only reason people will group is because they are used to it from other MMO's....

     

    Because you can fight those mobs just as good as individualls that are working together then a group..

     

    I think there might be a lot of chat in the regional .... or maybe in the encounter chats (if they are available).... 

     

    The more we're discussing here, the more i start realising is that while socialising depends a lot on the people,a huge group of those people needs an encouragement/trigger to become social...  Certain peoplelike myself will allways socialise, while others will never socialise and stick to their individuallity.... but the largest group needs to be encouraged to socialise, either by game mechanics or by socializers.... either of those triggers should work.

    And that is exactly what the Dynamic Events are... a way to help trigger social interations between social individuals. No matter what mechanics are in place, an MMO will not get an anti-social individual to actively socialize with other players but it can provide a means to get players together and to keep them together long enough to for the social individuals to actually feel like talking to one another. Guild Wars 2 has numerous options such as:

     - Dynamic Events that chain.

     - Difficult 5-Man Dungeons that require more co-ordination than just; you tank pull, you heal, the rest make big numbers.

     - World v World v World, where you'll likely have people asking "where's the action at?"

     - Server-browser based Structured PvP, where I know I would find a server I like and stick to it (just like in the PC FPS games I play).

     - Lots of things to do during downtime, like the fun activities in the cities.

     

    Really I don't understand why so many people in this thread are critizicing the DE system, as if the current quest grind you find in all other themepark MMOs is more ideal for socializing, than DEs. Also to answer Pilnkplonk's questions; No, there currently isn't any form of open grouping in the game and there likely wouldn't be, because there literally is no need for it when everyone shares XP, loot & kills already. Also there are current no way to form Raids in GW2, because like I said, there's no real need for it. There's no targetted-healing and every beneficial effect you can provide others is proximity based, because ArenaNet want people to keep their eyes on the game and not the UI.  However guild members will be able to keep track of each other on the map and even random people will show up (in purple), when they are in proximity of an event.

    image

  • Lord.BachusLord.Bachus Member RarePosts: 9,686

    Originally posted by Pilnkplonk

    Originally posted by Lord.Bachus


    Originally posted by Pilnkplonk


    Originally posted by Lord.Bachus


    Originally posted by Diovidius

    OP, your exact question is answered in this slideshow: http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1013691/Designing_Guild_Wars_2_Dynamic_Events (at the Q&A part but you should watch the whole thing if you haven't already).

    Exactly that part was what made me doubt the system.... If people don't have to talk to work together, most of them will not...  You can feel very lonely surrounded by a lot of people

    Well this is exactly the reason people WILL group. The last mmo that I played seriously was WAR and they had grouping done perfectly in that game. People would group in open word events (aka public quests) all the time even though the rewards system didn't depend on grouping at all - just like in GW2. The great part of this was that you were never forced to group, but you did it because it's more fun that way and you can coordinate better and maybe stick together for another event or two.

    If you wanted to play a silent lone guy in a crowd you could do that too and the game wouldn't penalize you in any way for doing it.

    Ok, so there are formal grouping mechanics in GW2 as http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Party says but... there are  few more questions I'd like to have answered..

    Are there going to be open parties? That was a pretty revolutionary system introduced in WAR and it worked like a charm. You create a party and make it open if you wish. No more LFG's no more LFM's... You simply check for open parties in the area you're entering, choose the one that's appealing to you (maybe you know somebody or they're doing an event you're interested in...) and that's it - you're in a party going somewhere doing something.

    The second question is whether there is going to be a second level of grouping, like WAR's Warbands or WoW Raids. Imo that's a crucial thing if you're trying to coordinate large groups of players like in epic DEs and WvW. I'm really curious to see how is this going to work in GW2. In open world PvP in WAR even the 24-member warbands felt too small and it would have been great if the devs introduced a THIRD grouping level - Armies or something comprising of several warbands so instead of individuals in army display you would see the health and position of GROUPS.

    Any info on these questions, yo gurus?

     



    The only reason people will group is because they are used to it from other MMO's....

     

    Well, I can only tell you what it was like in an actual game that utilized those same mechanics regarding grouping and rewards, both in PvE and especially in open world PvP. So the actual experience of 100s of thousands of players counts for nothing compared to your "opinion."

    Oh well... Enjoy your opinion. I mean, everyone is entitled to one.

    In WAR grouping up had playtechnical advantages.... like healing being a lot easier... Most of those advantages that encourage people to group are not available in GW2....  You dont need your group fellows bars to heal them or buff them... Most thigns are area based...

     

    There will not be open parties in GW2...

    Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)

  • PilnkplonkPilnkplonk Member Posts: 1,532

    Originally posted by Master10K

     Also to answer Pilnkplonk's questions; No, there currently isn't any form of open grouping in the game and there likely wouldn't be, because there literally is no need for it when everyone shares XP, loot & kills already.

    Well I disagree that there is no "need" to group. As we've been discussing in this thread there are definite benefits to formal grouping that transcend the basic loot and xp sharing.... Nemely SOCIALIZING.

    I found open groups an awesome addition to the socializing appeal in WAR and frankly I don't think anyone would group in WAR at all if it weren't for the open group mechanic which makes finding, joining and forming groups so easy and spontaneous.

    You like the guy you hapen to be doing that DE with. You right click on him and choose "join group" which is available if he is in an open group or flagged for grouping. And that's it. No whisperings, no trudging through some clunky menus. Nothing. Right-click and join. On the other hand if you prefer to go alone you flag yourself as not open for grouping and no one will bother or /w you because they can all see right away that you're a loner. Perfection in game design if you ask me.

    For me, lack of open groups in GW2 is a definite minus and I think that ANet is shooting themselves in the foot if they don't include such a feature.

    No game mechanic benefit to grouping + clunky LFG/invite system = death for grouping. The only way to promote grouping without direct benefits is to make it as easy and intuitive as possible.

    Also there are current no way to form Raids in GW2, because like I said, there's no real need for it. There's no targetted-healing and every beneficial effect you can provide others is proximity based, because ArenaNet want people to keep their eyes on the game and not the UI. 

    Again you're talking about the material "need" for large groups. But, again, groups are primarily about COMMUNICATION. And communication is crucial in all large-scale events, especially in open world PvP. Without the option for players to organize themselves into smaller and larger units the whole WvW thing will devolve into a mess with players trying to communicate and organize themselves through various third-party tools. I know. I've seen it happen in WAR before Mythic managed to polish their chat and grouping mechanics to some semblance of usefullness.

    Groups are not all about health bars and loot sharing, man. You won't be able to do ANYTHING in large scale DEs or WvW without the communication tools that groups and warbands/raids provide.

    And WvW promises to be even larger in scale than WAR's RvR and the decision NOT to provide the players with tools with which to organize and coordinate themselves would be shortsighted to an almost insane degree.

     

    And btw, "open groups" from WAR are not at all similar to "auto-groups" in Rifts. That's a completely different thing, as I can sense that there might be some confusion in that regard.

  • PilnkplonkPilnkplonk Member Posts: 1,532

    Originally posted by Lord.Bachus

    In WAR grouping up had playtechnical advantages.... like healing being a lot easier... Most of those advantages that encourage people to group are not available in GW2....  You dont need your group fellows bars to heal them or buff them... Most thigns are area based...

     

    There will not be open parties in GW2...

     

    By your logic game chat should also be removed from GW2 because there are no "real advantages to it" and is therefore "useless."

    Next....

  • nomssnomss Member UncommonPosts: 1,468

    Originally posted by Lord.Bachus

    Normally when starting out a new game, i allways friends with the people i group up with, lots of times ending in a guild together...  But in GW2, there will be no grouping and no groupchat. 

    They said that in GW2, the game will lead the people towards content automatically, and people will take their roles in the world naturally working together against a single or group of foes... There is no verbal communication needed at all... it will happen just naturally...

    With people all hunting targets and being very busy with dynamic things, what happened to the social function of groups allowing people to talk to eachother and stuff..

    I just can imagine a large group of people working together as a well oiled f8ighting machine all taking naturall actions and saving eachothers butt many times and then at the end of the evening all walking in different directions without knowing eachother or even having spoken a single word with the nice people behind the other characters...

     

    Will this feel the same as Multi server Dungeon Queues?  ..... where people also rarely talk...

     

    No, because DE is only one factor of the game. You forget the mini games + so many more things they have implemented focuing all their might on social gaming, building the community.

  • cali59cali59 Member Posts: 1,634

    Originally posted by Pilnkplonk

    Originally posted by Master10K



     Also to answer Pilnkplonk's questions; No, there currently isn't any form of open grouping in the game and there likely wouldn't be, because there literally is no need for it when everyone shares XP, loot & kills already.

    Well I disagree that there is no "need" to group. As we've been discussing in this thread there are definite benefits to formal grouping that transcend the basic loot and xp sharing.... Nemely SOCIALIZING.

    I found open groups an awesome addition to the socializing appeal in WAR and frankly I don't think anyone would group in WAR at all if it weren't for the open group mechanic which makes finding, joining and forming groups so easy and spontaneous.

    You like the guy you hapen to be doing that DE with. You right click on him and choose "join group" which is available if he is in an open group or flagged for grouping. And that's it. No whisperings, no trudging through some clunky menus. Nothing. Right-click and join. On the other hand if you prefer to go alone you flag yourself as not open for grouping and no one will bother or /w you because they can all see right away that you're a loner. Perfection in game design if you ask me.

    For me, lack of open groups in GW2 is a definite minus and I think that ANet is shooting themselves in the foot if they don't include such a feature.

    No game mechanic benefit to grouping + clunky LFG/invite system = death for grouping. The only way to promote grouping without direct benefits is to make it as easy and intuitive as possible.

    Also there are current no way to form Raids in GW2, because like I said, there's no real need for it. There's no targetted-healing and every beneficial effect you can provide others is proximity based, because ArenaNet want people to keep their eyes on the game and not the UI. 

    Again you're talking about the material "need" for large groups. But, again, groups are primarily about COMMUNICATION. And communication is crucial in all large-scale events, especially in open world PvP. Without the option for players to organize themselves into smaller and larger units the whole WvW thing will devolve into a mess with players trying to communicate and organize themselves through various third-party tools. I know. I've seen it happen in WAR before Mythic managed to polish their chat and grouping mechanics to some semblance of usefullness.

    Groups are not all about health bars and loot sharing, man. You won't be able to do ANYTHING in large scale DEs or WvW without the communication tools that groups and warbands/raids provide.

    And WvW promises to be even larger in scale than WAR's RvR and the decision NOT to provide the players with tools with which to organize and coordinate themselves would be shortsighted to an almost insane degree.

     

    And btw, "open groups" from WAR are not at all similar to "auto-groups" in Rifts. That's a completely different thing, as I can sense that there might be some confusion in that regard.

    I don't know why formal grouping is so important to you.  GW2 is taking the next step.  You don't have to right click on someone to automatically join their group or not.  If you're doing a DE, then you are for all intents and purposes automatically grouped with everyone else in the area.

    Why do you need to be grouped to socialize?  Just start talking.  Use the equivalent of /say instead of /party.  People who intended to be loners could be drawn into a conversation.

    It will be death for grouping.  It doesn't mean that it will be death for socializing.

     

    As far as large scale WvW goes, there's zone chat, people can be in multiple guilds, but I don't think they've finalized all the chat options.  I think we'll have to wait and see what is available.

    "Gamers will no longer buy the argument that every MMO requires a subscription fee to offset server and bandwidth costs. It's not true – you know it, and they know it." -Jeff Strain, co-founder of ArenaNet, 2007

  • NaralNaral Member UncommonPosts: 748

    I want them to be different, but everything I keep reading just makes DE sound like WO PQs and RIFTs all over again with a different spin on them. 

  • Loke666Loke666 Member EpicPosts: 21,441

    Originally posted by Naral

    I want them to be different, but everything I keep reading just makes DE sound like WO PQs and RIFTs all over again with a different spin on them. 

    Think about it like this: How fun would quests be if all quests demanded you to kill exactly 10 of the next creature?

    There is where Rift and WARs DEs are.

    GW2 have loads of variations just like all good quest MMOs have many different quests with a story in them.

    That might not be enough long term, hard to say yet but it is very different from WAR and Rift.

    Give it a chance and get a free trial eventually to get your own opinion how things work, that is all anyone can ask. But saying that you hate all fruits because you don't like apples just isn't fair, you might still hate all fruits but you need to try to know.

  • Loke666Loke666 Member EpicPosts: 21,441

    Originally posted by Lord.Bachus

    Normally when starting out a new game, i allways friends with the people i group up with, lots of times ending in a guild together...  But in GW2, there will be no grouping and no groupchat. 

    They said that in GW2, the game will lead the people towards content automatically, and people will take their roles in the world naturally working together against a single or group of foes... There is no verbal communication needed at all... it will happen just naturally...

    With people all hunting targets and being very busy with dynamic things, what happened to the social function of groups allowing people to talk to eachother and stuff..

    I just can imagine a large group of people working together as a well oiled f8ighting machine all taking naturall actions and saving eachothers butt many times and then at the end of the evening all walking in different directions without knowing eachother or even having spoken a single word with the nice people behind the other characters...

    Will this feel the same as Multi server Dungeon Queues?  ..... where people also rarely talk...

    It is actually a good point, this might happen. But I tend to learn to know people even when I solo that I then do dungeons with so I think I will stop and chat a little with people I meet in GW2, a lot more than I do in games were most quests are solo.

    Not as much as in games were all quests are group quests though, but I think games like that are gone, at least for now so this is at least more social than people just running around soloing stuff or in personal instances.

    But that is me, some people just ignore me when I start to talk with them and this wont help for that, even though I think there is nothing you can do to get those people talking anyways.

  • cali59cali59 Member Posts: 1,634

    Originally posted by Distopia

    Originally posted by cali59


     

    Who is talking about an overarching community?  I'm talking about the game removing the barriers from random people in the open world being able to play together and possibly initiate conversations.  If absolutely nothing else, one thing people could be working towards is doing dungeons.  The explorable mode of dungeons is supposed to be very difficult.  Being able to work together with others in the open world, see how they play (situational awareness, rezzing, combos) would get people who were interested in doing those dungeons setting up a network of contacts for a later time.

    In the open world people will not be able to communicate via TS because they won't be know one another and won't be grouped.  Communication will have to happen in the downtime between events.  Considering how little communication takes place in the open world in traditional MMOs (outside of Barrens chat) pretty much anything is a step up.

    Even IF the overall focus of the franchise was on squad based PVP, that would have nothing to do with the kind of small scale PVE communication I'm talking about.  Besides, people can do structured PVP immediately upon finishing the tutorial, as their characters get immediately scaled up and access to all gear and skills when talking part.  Hardcore players can do their thing and gravitate toward TS chat if they want, the rest of the players in the open world can hang out and do their thing.

    Being able to drop in to DEs encourages working together because then people don't have to waste time trying to catch up like they do in a quest line.  Being able to drop out is for convenience but the game incentivizes you to complete the event (different levels of rewards) and encourages you to stay for the next one (chaining).  Teleportation can only take you to waypoints.  People still need to run through the world to where the events are.  Once out in the world, in an ad hoc band of players, the incentive will be to keep going with them rather than porting to a waypoint and then having to go find other events and other bands.

     

    The overarching community is simply players reaching out to one another outside of the clicks they form.

    WOW is simply another game in a sea of them, that fall under the topic of socially bankrupt games. Just about everything released since WOW has been. Which many would argue is the main problem with MMO's and how the genre lost track of what was most important, community building.

    Second how did you miss I'm talking long term here, which makes the issue of no one knowing one another a moot point. I'm talking about where the social functionality of this game will go, and asking what is in place to ensure it doesn't go that route?

    Drop in and drop out does no such thing, it simply removes the need to find help and be social.

    I feel like I've already answered your questions, if not in my previous post, at some point in this thread.

    Traditional MMOs disincentivize socialization.  You have an endgame that people rush to because that's where the real game starts and where all your other friends are.  You've got traditional quests which are done most quickly when alone (don't have to find a group, wait to get on the same quest, or share xp).  You've got dungeons that nobody wants to do except to get their daily token, so people blast them out as fast as possible.  You have dungeon finding matching you up with people who aren't even on your server so there's even less incentive to talk to people.  Same thing with battlegrounds.

    Humans are naturally social beings.  People are playing MMOs because they want to be around other people.  What GW2 is doing is incentivizing working together because you all get xp and loot, and because of scaling fights get more chaotic and fun with more people.  Other people can protect you, rez you, and combo skills with you.

    Playing by yourself is boring.  Doing the same thing with other people can be fun.  That's your overarching community reason right there.  In WoW, if you're leveling, why even bother talking to someone?  Even if you do make a friend, you log on two weeks later and you're 14 levels higher.  Might as well defriend them.  In GW2, the game automentors you down.  Teleportation lets you go anywhere you've been instantly so you can meet up with that guy in minutes.  You can group with that guy, at an appropriate level, anywhere in the game under his level (or manually sidekick him up to yours).

    That's what I'm talking about with Drop In.  Unlike traditional quests where you have to be on the same stage, or it makes you not want to play the game because you don't want to have to repeat content, in GW2 you can just go meet someone and jump right into the middle of what they're doing.  Doesn't matter if they've already done 7 events in that chain.

    I didn't think of it before, but I'd also list WvW as a reason for people to get social.  Unlike other games where your battleground results don't matter, GW2 has a win/loss record that I think people are going to want to fight for.  What better way to do that than to start organizing large scale groups?

    "Gamers will no longer buy the argument that every MMO requires a subscription fee to offset server and bandwidth costs. It's not true – you know it, and they know it." -Jeff Strain, co-founder of ArenaNet, 2007

  • PilnkplonkPilnkplonk Member Posts: 1,532

    Originally posted by cali59

    Originally posted by Pilnkplonk


    Originally posted by Master10K



     Also to answer Pilnkplonk's questions; No, there currently isn't any form of open grouping in the game and there likely wouldn't be, because there literally is no need for it when everyone shares XP, loot & kills already.

    Well I disagree that there is no "need" to group. As we've been discussing in this thread there are definite benefits to formal grouping that transcend the basic loot and xp sharing.... Nemely SOCIALIZING.

    I found open groups an awesome addition to the socializing appeal in WAR and frankly I don't think anyone would group in WAR at all if it weren't for the open group mechanic which makes finding, joining and forming groups so easy and spontaneous.

    You like the guy you hapen to be doing that DE with. You right click on him and choose "join group" which is available if he is in an open group or flagged for grouping. And that's it. No whisperings, no trudging through some clunky menus. Nothing. Right-click and join. On the other hand if you prefer to go alone you flag yourself as not open for grouping and no one will bother or /w you because they can all see right away that you're a loner. Perfection in game design if you ask me.

    For me, lack of open groups in GW2 is a definite minus and I think that ANet is shooting themselves in the foot if they don't include such a feature.

    No game mechanic benefit to grouping + clunky LFG/invite system = death for grouping. The only way to promote grouping without direct benefits is to make it as easy and intuitive as possible.

    Also there are current no way to form Raids in GW2, because like I said, there's no real need for it. There's no targetted-healing and every beneficial effect you can provide others is proximity based, because ArenaNet want people to keep their eyes on the game and not the UI. 

    Again you're talking about the material "need" for large groups. But, again, groups are primarily about COMMUNICATION. And communication is crucial in all large-scale events, especially in open world PvP. Without the option for players to organize themselves into smaller and larger units the whole WvW thing will devolve into a mess with players trying to communicate and organize themselves through various third-party tools. I know. I've seen it happen in WAR before Mythic managed to polish their chat and grouping mechanics to some semblance of usefullness.

    Groups are not all about health bars and loot sharing, man. You won't be able to do ANYTHING in large scale DEs or WvW without the communication tools that groups and warbands/raids provide.

    And WvW promises to be even larger in scale than WAR's RvR and the decision NOT to provide the players with tools with which to organize and coordinate themselves would be shortsighted to an almost insane degree.

     

    And btw, "open groups" from WAR are not at all similar to "auto-groups" in Rifts. That's a completely different thing, as I can sense that there might be some confusion in that regard.

    I don't know why formal grouping is so important to you.  GW2 is taking the next step.  You don't have to right click on someone to automatically join their group or not.  If you're doing a DE, then you are for all intents and purposes automatically grouped with everyone else in the area.

    Why do you need to be grouped to socialize?  Just start talking.  Use the equivalent of /say instead of /party.  People who intended to be loners could be drawn into a conversation.

    It will be death for grouping.  It doesn't mean that it will be death for socializing.

     

    As far as large scale WvW goes, there's zone chat, people can be in multiple guilds, but I don't think they've finalized all the chat options.  I think we'll have to wait and see what is available.

     

    Lol, you really think that chat and all the group info such as member positions their health etc etc can be completely replaced by a local and a general chat channel?!?!?!

    1) What if a member of the group wants to do some quick business in the other part of the world? What are we going to do with him? Whisper at him across the continent? What will he do? Whisper at us "Hey guys what are you doing where are you?!?"

    2) How will you coordinate any large group effort without groups and warbands?!?! What? YELL in general "All players with names beginning with A to M go to Keep One and all the rest go to Keep Two?!?!!?" And don't tell me "Well there are guilds for that." because you know as well as I that it is not the same and that guilds which are by nature exclusive (remember you can still be active member of only one guild at a time) actually DETRACT from social nature of the game. In fact "guild exclusive" warbands are THE most antisocial element in WAR's RvR.

    Man I saw it all unfold in slooow motion in WAR. The quality of open world PvP experience is DIRECTLY proportional to the quality of tools players have to communicate and organize themselves. And now you say "well you have your zone chat, that should be enough" I mean, COME ON!!!

    3) What am I going to do when my health goes to red? Yell in local "HELP ME I'M GUNNA DIE?" "HEY GUYS SOMEONE RES ME?!?!?"

    4) What if I want to temporarily hang out with people, am I going to have to invite them into my guild just so we can chat privately?

    Jeez man, I know that crappy grouping in WoW or other mmos has probably made you bitter but don't be ridiculous. Go grab a free account of WAR and check out how grouping can be done well WITHOUT forcing anyone into anything.

  • AvanahAvanah Member RarePosts: 1,615

    Originally posted by Lord.Bachus

    Normally when starting out a new game, i allways friends with the people i group up with, lots of times ending in a guild together...  But in GW2, there will be no grouping and no groupchat. 

    They said that in GW2, the game will lead the people towards content automatically, and people will take their roles in the world naturally working together against a single or group of foes... There is no verbal communication needed at all... it will happen just naturally...

    With people all hunting targets and being very busy with dynamic things, what happened to the social function of groups allowing people to talk to eachother and stuff..

    I just can imagine a large group of people working together as a well oiled f8ighting machine all taking naturall actions and saving eachothers butt many times and then at the end of the evening all walking in different directions without knowing eachother or even having spoken a single word with the nice people behind the other characters...

     

    Will this feel the same as Multi server Dungeon Queues?  ..... where people also rarely talk...

     

    If you can't make friends in an MMO, maybe MMO's aren't for you.....BUT....

    I'm sure that is not your issue.

     

    Taking that point into consideration, you will SURELY make alot of friends whom you can invite to your group even while doing dynamic events. Nothing is stopping you.

    Sure there will be SOLO players who will fall into the catagory you stated, but that is up to them.

     

    You are not forced to SOLO the Dynamic events ect. You can still group with friends to do them, or however you feel.

    Of course if you are Friendless in GW2 it may be a boring time to some. :)

    "My Fantasy is having two men at once...

    One Cooking and One Cleaning!"

    ---------------------------

    "A good man can make you feel sexy,

    strong and able to take on the whole world...

    oh sorry...that's wine...wine does that..."





  • cali59cali59 Member Posts: 1,634

    Originally posted by Pilnkplonk

     

    Lol, you really think that chat and all the group info such as member positions their health etc etc can be completely replaced by a local and a general chat channel?!?!?!

    1) What if a member of the group wants to do some quick business in the other part of the world? What are we going to do with him? Whisper at him across the continent? What will he do? Whisper at us "Hey guys what are you doing where are you?!?"

    2) How will you coordinate any large group effort without groups and warbands?!?! What? "All players with names beginning with A to M go to Keep One and all the rest go to Keep Two?!?!!?"

    3) What am I going to do when my health goes to red? Yell in local "HELP ME I'M GUNNA DIE?"

    4) What if I want to temporarily hang out with people, am I going to have to invite them into my guild just so we can chat privately?

    Jeez man, I know that crappy grouping in WoW or other mmos has probably made you bitter but don't be ridiculous. Go grab a trial account of WAR and check out how grouping can be done well WITHOUT forcing anyone into anything.

    You do know there is a grouping feature in the game, right?

    1) If this person is actually a member of your group, then you just talk to him in party chat while he leaves.  If he's some random guy, maybe he does send you a whisper saying that he enjoyed hanging out, can he group up and come back, or maybe you just tell him where you are.

    2) I said we don't know what chat options are available, ArenaNet hasn't finalized them.

    3) Well, you could go downed and we could rez you.  Or we could see you're in trouble and proactively try to help.  Unlike other games you'd be backing off and dodging from mobs instead of standing there taking hits.

    4) No, if you wanted to chat privately there would be party chat and possibly also custom chat channels as well.

    I don't know how often I can emphasize this.  The whole point of the game is that events are happening and that everyone can contribute without having to do some artificial right click grouping mechanism.  It's still there if you want it.

    "Gamers will no longer buy the argument that every MMO requires a subscription fee to offset server and bandwidth costs. It's not true – you know it, and they know it." -Jeff Strain, co-founder of ArenaNet, 2007

  • PilnkplonkPilnkplonk Member Posts: 1,532

    Originally posted by cali59

    Originally posted by Pilnkplonk

     

    Lol, you really think that chat and all the group info such as member positions their health etc etc can be completely replaced by a local and a general chat channel?!?!?!

    1) What if a member of the group wants to do some quick business in the other part of the world? What are we going to do with him? Whisper at him across the continent? What will he do? Whisper at us "Hey guys what are you doing where are you?!?"

    2) How will you coordinate any large group effort without groups and warbands?!?! What? "All players with names beginning with A to M go to Keep One and all the rest go to Keep Two?!?!!?"

    3) What am I going to do when my health goes to red? Yell in local "HELP ME I'M GUNNA DIE?"

    4) What if I want to temporarily hang out with people, am I going to have to invite them into my guild just so we can chat privately?

    Jeez man, I know that crappy grouping in WoW or other mmos has probably made you bitter but don't be ridiculous. Go grab a trial account of WAR and check out how grouping can be done well WITHOUT forcing anyone into anything.

    You do know there is a grouping feature in the game, right?

    1) If this person is actually a member of your group, then you just talk to him in party chat while he leaves.  If he's some random guy, maybe he does send you a whisper saying that he enjoyed hanging out, can he group up and come back, or maybe you just tell him where you are.

    2) I said we don't know what chat options are available, ArenaNet hasn't finalized them.

    3) Well, you could go downed and we could rez you.  Or we could see you're in trouble and proactively try to help.  Unlike other games you'd be backing off and dodging from mobs instead of standing there taking hits.

    4) No, if you wanted to chat privately there would be party chat and possibly also custom chat channels as well.

    I don't know how often I can emphasize this.  The whole point of the game is that events are happening and that everyone can contribute without having to do some artificial right click grouping mechanism.  It's still there if you want it.

    Exactly, DEs are a perfect starting point for socializing which then naturally evolves into grouping... if you like. And you should never feel forced to actually group. I completely agree with that.

    However, imo exactly because of that groups should be made easy to enter to leave and they, due to the open world nature of the game involving maybe hundreds of players working at the same task (be it epic DEs or WvW) should definitely have another level of super-groups, just like warbands or raids.

    Really you should look into WAR grouping, because while the game is crap in many many ways, they really nailed that one thing almost perfectly. Personally after WAR I simply cannot play mmos that don't have open grouping mechanics because when I have to type "Hey buddy, can you invite me in your group?" or constantly click "accept" "accept" "accept" when leading one I feel like I'm back in the stone age again, almost like having to "pray" for 5 minutes to restore mana or, dunno, get xp penalties for dying in PvP. Try WAR for a day or two and you'll realize how unnecesarily clunky and dull the "classical" grouping is when compared to open grouping. It's like once you had a mercedes you can't go back to your beloved.. dunno, Yugo I suppose. It really makes THAT much difference.

  • Master10KMaster10K Member Posts: 3,065

    Originally posted by Pilnkplonk

    *snip*

     Lol, you really think that chat and all the group info such as member positions their health etc etc can be completely replaced by a local and a general chat channel?!?!?!

    1) What if a member of the group wants to do some quick business in the other part of the world? What are we going to do with him? Whisper at him across the continent? What will he do? Whisper at us "Hey guys what are you doing where are you?!?"

    2) How will you coordinate any large group effort without groups and warbands?!?! What? YELL in general "All players with names beginning with A to M go to Keep One and all the rest go to Keep Two?!?!!?" And don't tell me "Well there are guilds for that." because you know as well as I that it is not the same and that guilds which are by nature exclusive (remember you can still be active member of only one guild at a time) actually DETRACT from social nature of the game. In fact "guild exclusive" warbands are THE most antisocial element in WAR's RvR.

    Man I saw it all unfold in slooow motion in WAR. The quality of open world PvP experience is DIRECTLY proportional to the quality of tools players have to communicate and organize themselves. And now you say "well you have your zone chat, that should be enough" I mean, COME ON!!!

    3) What am I going to do when my health goes to red? Yell in local "HELP ME I'M GUNNA DIE?" "HEY GUYS SOMEONE RES ME?!?!?"

    4) What if I want to temporarily hang out with people, am I going to have to invite them into my guild just so we can chat privately?

    Jeez man, I know that crappy grouping in WoW or other mmos has probably made you bitter but don't be ridiculous. Go grab a free account of WAR and check out how grouping can be done well WITHOUT forcing anyone into anything.

    And when has anybody said you can't group up with people and do all that? Heck, earlier in this thread I provided evidence showing that you can in fact form a party, keep track of each other on a mini-map and chat amongst each other. There's even evidence showing that in the game's current state, you can keep track of people outside of your group, as long as you are doing the same event.

     

    So really, all you're doing is just grasping at whatever you can try to criticize GW2 on, with no real thought into what you are criticizing. Because all these issues, like not having raid windows so you can heal someone, are issues that would plague another game but not GW2. Also when have ArenaNet said that they wanted you to look at the UI, to heal someone, in the 1st place?

    image

  • PilnkplonkPilnkplonk Member Posts: 1,532

    Originally posted by Master10K

    Originally posted by Pilnkplonk


    *snip*

     Lol, you really think that chat and all the group info such as member positions their health etc etc can be completely replaced by a local and a general chat channel?!?!?!

    1) What if a member of the group wants to do some quick business in the other part of the world? What are we going to do with him? Whisper at him across the continent? What will he do? Whisper at us "Hey guys what are you doing where are you?!?"

    2) How will you coordinate any large group effort without groups and warbands?!?! What? YELL in general "All players with names beginning with A to M go to Keep One and all the rest go to Keep Two?!?!!?" And don't tell me "Well there are guilds for that." because you know as well as I that it is not the same and that guilds which are by nature exclusive (remember you can still be active member of only one guild at a time) actually DETRACT from social nature of the game. In fact "guild exclusive" warbands are THE most antisocial element in WAR's RvR.

    Man I saw it all unfold in slooow motion in WAR. The quality of open world PvP experience is DIRECTLY proportional to the quality of tools players have to communicate and organize themselves. And now you say "well you have your zone chat, that should be enough" I mean, COME ON!!!

    3) What am I going to do when my health goes to red? Yell in local "HELP ME I'M GUNNA DIE?" "HEY GUYS SOMEONE RES ME?!?!?"

    4) What if I want to temporarily hang out with people, am I going to have to invite them into my guild just so we can chat privately?

    Jeez man, I know that crappy grouping in WoW or other mmos has probably made you bitter but don't be ridiculous. Go grab a free account of WAR and check out how grouping can be done well WITHOUT forcing anyone into anything.

    And when has anybody said you can't group up with people and do all that? Heck, earlier in this thread I provided evidence showing that you can in fact form a party, keep track of each other on a mini-map and chat amongst each other. There's even evidence showing that in the game's current state, you can keep track of people outside of your group, as long as you are doing the same event.

     

    So really, all you're doing is just grasping at whatever you can try to criticize GW2 on, with no real thought into what you are criticizing. Because all these issues, like not having raid windows so you can heal someone, are issues that would plague another game but not GW2. Also when have ArenaNet said that they wanted you to look at the UI, to heal someone, in the 1st place?

    Lol, I'll be called a GW2 hater next lol.

    And don't you strawman me, young man. Who said anything about healing in raid window? LOOOOL?!?!

    My argument is really straightforward - WAR had the whole grouping thing done really well with open groups and warbands. This is especially relevant considering that GW2's gameplay will have some similarities with WAR's - namely open world events that you don't have to group in order to get rewards and participate AND the large-scale open world PvP. Therefore, GW2 would be really smart to use these or similar mechanics which have proven their worth rather than fall back to primitive and clunky systems like what they have in WoW.

    What I'm arguing with cali69 is that he seems to consider that the ONLY utility for groups and warbands is to be able to click-heal. So these are HIS issues and NOT mine! I don't agree with his view and say that open grouping and large-scale grouping OPTIONS give many benefits to players who CHOOSE to use them AS WELL as PROMOTE overall sociability of the game and therefore GW2 should include these features.

    So, where am I dissing or hating GW2 or ANYWHERE mentioning raid window click-healing?!?!

    What's next? Calling me a raid-whore WoW-fanboi?!

    Or are my sentences too long for these forums?

  • fiontarfiontar Member UncommonPosts: 3,682

    Formal groups and group chat still do exist in GW2, so I don't know where the idea that they don't came from.

    I'm hopeful that the GW2 game design, which removes the barriers to people working together, grouped or not, will help to retrain players to be more social in game. A major problem with MMOs in recent years hasn't been the lack of forced grouping, it's been the fact that game design for most titles has combined solo friendly gaming with systems that actually discourage cooperation and grouping for most casual content.

    I've been playing MMOs for a decade or so and I can definitely appreciate the dichotomy between MMOs pre-WoW and Post WoW as far as grouping and the social environment. There used to be frustrations centered around times when I sat down to play a game that required grouping, at times when friends were offline and forming Pick Up Groups became a hassle. (Who wants to sit in a game for an hour Looking For Group in chat, just because your play hours are "off-prime")? Now, the frustrations in most MMOs center around long quest chains that make grouping with others to do the same quest content difficult and game design that ensures you earn less XP and loot per hour grouped than non-grouped. When you have managed to build social ties with people in game, the negatives to progression rates are out weighed by the fun of being social, but the barrier exists to discourage grouping with people you meet, which makes forming new friendships a lot more difficult than it used to be. Mob tagging and the competition with other players over quest resources hasn't helped the social aspect of MMOs either.

    GW2 always encourages cooperation, because another player showing up to tackle the same content you are tackling is always a good thing. Even though soft grouping is just as rewarding as hard grouping, once players adjust to the truly cooperative nature of the game, hopefully most players will start to once again appreciate the added social benefits of hard grouping (i.e. actually forming groups, rather than just cooperating with people you bump into, which is what I mean by soft grouping).

    You know, the system in GW2 does more than just remove the barriers to productive grouping via game mechanics. It also dovetails nicely with the way PVE world content is served up to players. In other games, even if you find some leg of a quest to group up with someone for, usually when that piece of content is completed, you each have very different agendas on what you are up to next, which usually results in a quick parting of the ways. In GW2, with most of your PVE content coming as a result of Dynamic Events, your agenda is most often going to be "explore the zone and participate in the Dynamic Events I find along the way". That's a goal that you are going to share with a large percentage of people you bump into around the world. No more worrying about whether or not you share this quest or that quest, when the goal is just to explore and find events, it's going to be very easy to find overlap with other socially minded players.

    We can't leave out the impact of the side kicking system on the social aspect of GW2. In other games, even if you find a large, sociable guild, there are always barriers to guild members of differing levels working together. You usually only group with players with in a level either way and even then, only if your quest logs are compatible enough to make the group worthwhile. Now, if guild memebers are looking to group , they can pretty much group with anyone and be productive. (It's possible Dungeons may be slightly less forgiving, but we don't know enough yet about how well the side-kicking system will enable level disparate groups to handle the difficulty associated with the Explorable Dungeon content).

    I can say that it will be very pleasant, from my perspective, to be able to group up with lower level members of my guild and have the choice of either side-kicking them up to join me in higher level zones, or side-kick down to help them where they are playing, while still being able to earn respectable XP and loot appropriate to my true level, either way. The system will even enable a group of various levels to decide to join up to explore a zone no one has spent much time in, or where some major event chains are gearing up, with little concern for the level disparity.

    There are a lot of pieces to the GW2 puzzle which will encourage much more sociable play than is seen in most other contemporary titles. The community won't change and adapt over night. I think it will take people variable amounts of time to readjust their thinking to take advantage of the opportunities GW2 provides for sociable play. There will even be some people for whom the transition will be difficult. The systems that discourage grouping in other games have provided insulation for players who might prefer to play as loners, or just like to sometimes play with out having the pressure to be helpful to others.

    I think the community will adjust over time and the good thing is that for those who are slow to adjust, or just don't feel sociable at all, the game doesn't force you to group with others, even if the game is a lot more fun that way.

    Want to know more about GW2 and why there is so much buzz? Start here: Guild Wars 2 Mass Info for the Uninitiated
    image

  • cali59cali59 Member Posts: 1,634

    Originally posted by Pilnkplonk

    What I'm arguing with cali69 is that he seems to consider that the ONLY utility for groups and warbands is to be able to click-heal. So these are HIS issues and NOT mine! I don't agree with his view and say that open grouping and large-scale grouping OPTIONS give many benefits to players who CHOOSE to use them AS WELL as PROMOTE overall sociability of the game and therefore GW2 should include these features.

    Let me try this discussion from a different direction.

    I truly believe ArenaNet has a bunch of goals (make the game more social, give characters a story, make combat more exciting, have people look at the screen and not the UI) that they're trying to accomplish.  I also believe that ArenaNet is looking at all sorts of other games, both MMOs and non-MMOs and getting inspiration.  They're not copy/pasting anything though, at least without putting their own spin on it.

    I think one of their goals is to make the game as social as possible, to potentially be able to draw in the people who probably only intended to solo.  Now, it could be that WAR's auto-accept style grouping is better than traditional grouping at encouraging socialization, but it's entirely possible that they consider this a step back from what they think their implementation is, being able to play with others without grouping at all.  Keep in mind that they do want people to be able to look at the screen and not the UI, so making the default behavior of people to immediately start forming groups of 5 at DEs might not be seen as desirable.  There is something to be said for immersion about seeing monsters and immediately jumping into the fight instead of right clicking on everyone you see in order to find someone in an open group. 

    As far as Warbands go, again, we don't know what World PVP will hold.  We know for a fact that they've played WAR, it's obvious.  And we know that in WoW battlegrounds players automatically start populating a 40 person raid.  So there's no way that they can't be aware of that.  I'm not the type of person who thinks everything ArenaNet does is the perfect solution, but I have to think that if they're doing away with raids/warbands in world PVP then they at least have a reason, even if it's not what we think we would have done.

     

     

     

    "Gamers will no longer buy the argument that every MMO requires a subscription fee to offset server and bandwidth costs. It's not true – you know it, and they know it." -Jeff Strain, co-founder of ArenaNet, 2007

  • NaqajNaqaj Member UncommonPosts: 1,673

    Originally posted by Lord.Bachus

    Now imagine there is a big fire in that park.... as that is more in case with an MMO.... This would require you to communicate with the strangers... and you could fight the fire together...

     

    Now would you start communicating with those people after the fire is killed ?

     

    I think you would, and so by fighting the the fire together you made new friends, while you where not in the park with the purpose of making new friends...

    This is exactly what DE's seem to do. Literally, it's what we've seen in the demos.

    You see the fire, you go there and fight it. Other players join you, you naturally start working together. Once the fire is extinguished, the event transitions to the next stage. You got a minute or two to breathe, you start talking to the other people around you, compliment the Elementalist for his nice use of Firewall, thank the Guardian for saving your ass when you were about to die, laugh at the joke from the Necro. Some people may have to leave so you put them on your friends list, the rest joins you in the next stage of the event.

    Where does the need for formalized grouping come in? I'm just not seeing the neccessity.

  • timtracktimtrack Member UncommonPosts: 541

    Any other mmo:

    Random Guy talks to a NPC who says there's a fire around the corner, Random Guy walks there to check it out.

    Random Guy: "Hai gais can i join ur group to fight teh fire???".

    Some group leader: "Full, gtfo".

     

    GW2:

    Random Guy see smoke in the distance, he runs there to check it out.

    Once there, random guy realizes it's a huge fire. Heroicly, he runs in to help extinguish the fire.

    Other people already around: "Hooray! Reinforcement!".

     

    IRL

     

    Random Guy see smoke in the distance, he runs there to check it out.

    Once there, random guy realizes it's a huge fire. Heroicly, he runs in to help extinguish the fire.

    Other people already around: "Hooray! Reinforcement!".

     

    In any case, GW2 DE's will be a fresh new approach. Good or bad, only time will tell.

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