Once again Blizz "pander" to the children of wow, i wont comment on how they arent doing anything innovatove just trying to catch up with an ageing MMO...Regardless i say have fun with your Pandas, im going to be a Jedi!
i just have to say how ironic it is to call wow childish, though i can remember being a child myself and thinking "i wanna be a jedi" but wow and star wars are products that both the young and old can enjoy so it seems fruitless to think this way. i mean even back in the the when they sold merch. for star wars it was meant for younger boys but nowadays its big business for collectors. honestly there are going to be people who stick to wow someone to move to tor and some who will play both. Im just trying to figure out since when did TOR become only for adults.
Oh i forgot to add about the respeccing question. since you pick your class at 1 your spec at 10 and your first talent at 15 i woul dyes there will still be respeccing since spec is different than talents.
Before you could deviate from the proven "best" spec for a given class/specialization, but in deviating from the standard you became sub-par.
You had choice, but they were really false choices as you were choosing between having the "right" spec and having a bad spec.
HOPEFULLY this system will allow players to remain competitive by not unintentionally gimping themselves, and do as Blizzard intends by offering more meaningful choices.
I do like how (at least how I've heard it) you'll be able to swap around pretty much on the fly.
I agree. There were not any viable choices. I don't understand how people can not understand this.
Well I've lost a bet recently. Never thought Blizz would be able to dumb down the game even more but their new talent system is just *lol*, also talent trees itself have been a dumbed down version of an alternate advancement system for years.
Ghostcrawler is just the biggest joke someone quoted him saying "well even in the new talent system people could make to much mistakes" oh well how about learning how to play the game instead of a dumbed down pokemonic lobby version.
If finding out how to play your class is hardcore and figuring out right combinations than so be it,f maybe just maybe the FPS and me now crowd doesn't fit into our genre?
We need a MMORPG Cataclysm asap, finish the dark age of MMORPGS now!
"Everything you're bitching about is wrong. People don't have the time to invest in corpse runs, impossible zones, or long winded quests. Sometimes, they just want to pop on and play." "Then maybe MMORPGs aren't for you."
Talent trees have nothing to do with Alternative Advancement, they are completely 2 different lines of thought.
I love AA, i dont like talent trees
In AA's you earned your points, you never have to respec, and you didnt have to sacrifice and AA ability to get another, you could have both.
Talent trees on the other hand have always been lame, even in D2 "im a max level character but i cant learn more than on speciality", what a croc. even in the descriptions mages are the masters of frost fire and arcane. its "and" not "or" just to give an example.
And AA's gave you reasons to keep playing after maxing out your level, once you top out with talent trees it just gets down to min maxing.
Well I've lost a bet recently. Never thought Blizz would be able to dumb down the game even more but their new talent system is just *lol*, also talent trees itself have been a dumbed down version of an alternate advancement system for years.
Ghostcrawler is just the biggest joke someone quoted him saying "well even in the new talent system people could make to much mistakes" oh well how about learning how to play the game instead of a dumbed down pokemonic lobby version.
If finding out how to play your class is hardcore and figuring out right combinations than so be it,f maybe just maybe the FPS and me now crowd doesn't fit into our genre?
Right now the talent tree is awful, the worst since I have played the game, You go on tank spot or whatever website you get the spec and that is it for your class.
At least with the new talent tree there will be some options. Good for Blizz for realizing the current system sucks. Is this going to be great? time will tell but it is 100 times better than the current system.
Right now the talent tree is awful, the worst since I have played the game, You go on tank spot or whatever website you get the spec and that is it for your class.
At least with the new talent tree there will be some options. Good for Blizz for realizing the current system sucks. Is this going to be great? time will tell but it is 100 times better than the current system.
Honestly I don't know much about the current system back when I've played (till 3.1) it was like every freaking patch another nerf/buff relearning your classs over and over since Ghostcrawler and Chilton took over.
So I've did some searching and saw something like you have to spend 30 points in one tree *lol* if thats really the case than this system is already incredible dumbed down, so you might have a point here there won't be much difference except even more dumbed down and less custom options.
We need a MMORPG Cataclysm asap, finish the dark age of MMORPGS now!
"Everything you're bitching about is wrong. People don't have the time to invest in corpse runs, impossible zones, or long winded quests. Sometimes, they just want to pop on and play." "Then maybe MMORPGs aren't for you."
I think it just reenforces my thoughts that blizz thinks people are too stupid to make their own choices with talent builds. Cata certainly indicated this.
Well, with 3.8 billion in Asia alone, why wouldnt Blizzard offer every enticement toward the huge Asian market. The new expansion is completely aimed to grab as many Asian customers as they can. Blizzard is a business and they need to keep it rolling.. I really beleive that Blizzard is concerned with losing a huge chunk of American business with Star Wars TOR coming out. Star Wars franchise is mainly an American thing. So we can see where WOW is headed.
Pokemon style Pets = Popular in Asian Market
Panda Bears = Popular in Asian Market
Pandaria Lands Asian Themed = Popular in Asian Market
Monk(Martial Arts) Class = Popular in Asian Market
Its clear to see who Blizzard beleives will be their main customers will be in the future.
if a WoW falls miserably in the woods, and it's after December 20 2011, does it make a sound?
RIP Ribbitribbitt you are missed, kid.
Currently Playing EVE, ESO
Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and not clothed.
Right now the talent tree is awful, the worst since I have played the game, You go on tank spot or whatever website you get the spec and that is it for your class.
At least with the new talent tree there will be some options. Good for Blizz for realizing the current system sucks. Is this going to be great? time will tell but it is 100 times better than the current system.
Honestly I don't know much about the current system back when I've played (till 3.1) it was like every freaking patch another nerf/buff relearning your classs over and over since Ghostcrawler and Chilton took over.
So I've did some searching and saw something like you have to spend 30 points in one tree *lol* if thats really the case than this system is already incredible dumbed down, so you might have a point here there won't be much difference except even more dumbed down and less custom options.
Yeah, when they revamped talents for Cataclysm, they locked the tree until you put in 31 points, and then you could place points in another tree. If you are raiding or pvping, you're most likely using the same spec as everyone else for your given class and spec. The trees in WotLK were overly bloated and full of filler talents, and you still had a best spec.
At least in this system there is going to be something resembling choice. Knowing Blizzard, they will revamp the system 3-4 times before MoP launches, and then still make changes during major content patches.
Still not 100% convinced about the whole Pandaren thing tbh.....
Anyways, whilst I was glad they simplified the talents in Cata (IE cut the fat), the fact you were now locked into a tree (untill the last few points at least), was a major gimp to variety. I would rather MORE choices, not less! With only 3 trees to choose from as it is (and God bless Rift for multiple choice!), every char that picked say a destro Lock, was pretty much the same as every destro Lock out there.
Please, don't make the system even more Fisher-Price! Give us more options, not LESS. Lets have some variety in classes and chars.
Or, have new talent trees? How about a 4th for each class? A Mage with an earth based talent, create a mini earthquake, have a Golum like pet. Or a rogue have a thief tree, where they can get slightly better loot. A Lock with some real necromancy based powers, a Paladin with real dark powers, a Priest who can wear armour, like a clearic based tree. There are multiple ideas my friends and I have discussed in way more detail over the years, but you get my point?
As for any nay-sayers who may argue about lore and cannon, really? That went out the window years ago. And as for the need to balance a new tree? Well, the 3 we currently have have been nerfed and buffed since pre launch, and will continually be so.
Agree with you completely on that problem ... no variety ... all fire mages are quall, frost also, ... etc etc. To be honest, loved much more beofore when player was able to chose different talents from any tree since scratch (but for sure some were put on must illogical places immaginable). At least there were different build ... there were fire mage ... and were fire mage. Last overhaoul just eliminated chices and made all totally linear.
About kung-fu ... ops, Pandarians and monks :-) I really love idea and can barely wait to be able to play.
It looks like all they did was take 1 ability from each tree and let you choose one of those three every 15 levels.
I still see in that screenshot that there will be a healer, tank, and dps layout for a pally. I don't see how it's going to change any. Vanilla WoW's talent system didn't start out as a PvP tree, Raid tree, and typically a 3rd useless tree. It just had a lot of useless talents for a lot of classes. It seems like the developers lost sight of what they were originally trying to do, make useless talents usefull, and they ended up just making each tree suit a specific purpose depending on if you're doing PvE or PvP.
If what they want is for people to hybrid, then stop making talents that are specific to gameplay, and just make allt he talents passive. Instead of having abilities within each tree that are effective in one area of play, generalize the trees to their specific branch. A mage that goes arcane would do so for mana conservation and to boost arcane damage, fire for improving cast time and to boosting fire damage, and frost for improving movement effects and for boosting frost damage.
I don't see them changing anything, but only simplifying it down so much that they end up with even more of a cooky cutter system.
neat idea to reduce the number of clicks oyu have to do to make a characeter, but i stil think your going to have cookie cutters taht favor certian abilities.
Right now the talent tree is awful, the worst since I have played the game, You go on tank spot or whatever website you get the spec and that is it for your class.
At least with the new talent tree there will be some options. Good for Blizz for realizing the current system sucks. Is this going to be great? time will tell but it is 100 times better than the current system.
Honestly I don't know much about the current system back when I've played (till 3.1) it was like every freaking patch another nerf/buff relearning your classs over and over since Ghostcrawler and Chilton took over.
So I've did some searching and saw something like you have to spend 30 points in one tree *lol* if thats really the case than this system is already incredible dumbed down, so you might have a point here there won't be much difference except even more dumbed down and less custom options.
In the Current system there are more points but there are almost no options.
In the new system there are less points but more options.
In other words, right now, more than any other time in World of Warcraft, the talent system is on rails. Why make the players go through the motions of spending talent points if you already know which talents the players are going to choose.
And example: if you know everyone who plays an Assasination rogue is going to put three points into Coup De Grace, is that really a choice? Why make them go through the motions spending the points. Why not just give them Coup De Grace at a certain level.
Again, in the current (Horrible IMO) system there are lots of points and almost no real choices.
The new system looks better but only time will tell. I am looking forward to it.
Also, everyone saying they are going to quit over this expansion, it doesn't mean much. Only like 1/100 peopel that publicly profess their "intentions" of quitting actually quit . . .
I personally quit a good while ago, but it had nothing to do with the changes made, nor did I do it publicly. It was because the entire game is a skinner box and the amount of operant conditioning used is ridiculous.
Yes, it's a Skinner Box. That's also why I quit it a long time ago.
There's a lot of potential for an MMORPG - as in, a real one, an actual massively multiplayer online role-playing game. WoW isn't it, it's effectively a hack-n-slash gear grind with the appearance of an RPG (of course, that's true of virtually every other MMORPG, excepting a few of the smaller and more unique games). WoW isn't designed to allow you to role-play, it's designed to keep you on the gear grind hamster wheel for as long as possible.
But you actually hit on a serious issue: this is doing nothing to bring former players like us back. With declining subs, that's a critical issue. WoW has always had a steady rate of players quitting, even from the start; but they were able to win a lot of those players back with BC and WotLK, which helped keep subs high. That didn't happen with Cata, and I don't think it's going to happen with this expansion, which means that subs have only one direction to go: down. And nothing kills an MMORPG faster than the feeling that its world has gotten all too empty.
You know this was a changed due to Rift. Rift is kicking butt with a class system that's fun and loaded with options. At that same time WoW came out with a harsh talent system and started losing subs. Was one of the big reasons we left WoW. If swtor dose not work out I may just give WoW a second chance. I love a lot of freedom in how my char plays and can spec him. Would still be playing Rift if swtor was not Star Wars.
Maybe. It might be that the future of MMOs is about few or no classes and plenty of customization instead of the many but pretty rigid classes of Everquest.
I hope personally that someone mixes all this with Guildwars idea of selecting your own skills from a list, it have a lot of potential and you suddenly could have many more options. While GWs PvP have better and worse combos there are still a lot more useful combos and room for individuality there than in Wows original talent system even though you just have 8 skills at the same time.
Mixing those things make sense, MMOs needs give the players more options about how they want to play their characters and you can see that all the newly released and upcomming games try to do that one way or another.
I think, in general, MMORPGs are moving away from a lot of "traditional" RPG elements, and rigidly fixed classes is one thing that is getting re-thought. I personally would like to see a lot of the old pen-and-paper RPG artifacts get dropped, including classes, rigid skill sets, fixed experience levels, and even static dungeons. There's just a lot that can be done given modern computing technology, but designers are simply not thinking out of the box.
Right now there's too much thinking that "it's good enough for WoW and its ten million subscribers, it should be good enough for our new WoW-like MMORPG". One of the reasons I'd like to see WoW stumble just a bit: it will prompt other game companies to start taking chances on new designs.
On the subject of less choice in MMOs, my son showed me some f2p mmo the other day where you literally clicked the quest in the quest-log, and your toon pathed and ran to the next phase automatically?! unbelievable. Better to just watch a movie (2 hours) than to play the stuff most companies seem to be coming out with now.
Comments
Once again Blizz "pander" to the children of wow, i wont comment on how they arent doing anything innovatove just trying to catch up with an ageing MMO...Regardless i say have fun with your Pandas, im going to be a Jedi!
i just have to say how ironic it is to call wow childish, though i can remember being a child myself and thinking "i wanna be a jedi" but wow and star wars are products that both the young and old can enjoy so it seems fruitless to think this way. i mean even back in the the when they sold merch. for star wars it was meant for younger boys but nowadays its big business for collectors. honestly there are going to be people who stick to wow someone to move to tor and some who will play both. Im just trying to figure out since when did TOR become only for adults.
Oh i forgot to add about the respeccing question. since you pick your class at 1 your spec at 10 and your first talent at 15 i woul dyes there will still be respeccing since spec is different than talents.
I agree. There were not any viable choices. I don't understand how people can not understand this.
Well I've lost a bet recently. Never thought Blizz would be able to dumb down the game even more but their new talent system is just *lol*, also talent trees itself have been a dumbed down version of an alternate advancement system for years.
Ghostcrawler is just the biggest joke someone quoted him saying "well even in the new talent system people could make to much mistakes" oh well how about learning how to play the game instead of a dumbed down pokemonic lobby version.
If finding out how to play your class is hardcore and figuring out right combinations than so be it,f maybe just maybe the FPS and me now crowd doesn't fit into our genre?
We need a MMORPG Cataclysm asap, finish the dark age of MMORPGS now!
"Everything you're bitching about is wrong. People don't have the time to invest in corpse runs, impossible zones, or long winded quests. Sometimes, they just want to pop on and play."
"Then maybe MMORPGs aren't for you."
Talent trees have nothing to do with Alternative Advancement, they are completely 2 different lines of thought.
I love AA, i dont like talent trees
In AA's you earned your points, you never have to respec, and you didnt have to sacrifice and AA ability to get another, you could have both.
Talent trees on the other hand have always been lame, even in D2 "im a max level character but i cant learn more than on speciality", what a croc. even in the descriptions mages are the masters of frost fire and arcane. its "and" not "or" just to give an example.
And AA's gave you reasons to keep playing after maxing out your level, once you top out with talent trees it just gets down to min maxing.
Right now the talent tree is awful, the worst since I have played the game, You go on tank spot or whatever website you get the spec and that is it for your class.
At least with the new talent tree there will be some options. Good for Blizz for realizing the current system sucks. Is this going to be great? time will tell but it is 100 times better than the current system.
Honestly I don't know much about the current system back when I've played (till 3.1) it was like every freaking patch another nerf/buff relearning your classs over and over since Ghostcrawler and Chilton took over.
So I've did some searching and saw something like you have to spend 30 points in one tree *lol* if thats really the case than this system is already incredible dumbed down, so you might have a point here there won't be much difference except even more dumbed down and less custom options.
We need a MMORPG Cataclysm asap, finish the dark age of MMORPGS now!
"Everything you're bitching about is wrong. People don't have the time to invest in corpse runs, impossible zones, or long winded quests. Sometimes, they just want to pop on and play."
"Then maybe MMORPGs aren't for you."
I think it just reenforces my thoughts that blizz thinks people are too stupid to make their own choices with talent builds. Cata certainly indicated this.
They can have it...moving on.
if a WoW falls miserably in the woods, and it's after December 20 2011, does it make a sound?
RIP Ribbitribbitt you are missed, kid.
Currently Playing EVE, ESO
Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and not clothed.
Dwight D Eisenhower
My optimism wears heavy boots and is loud.
Henry Rollins
all i say anything that changes the talent tree that everyone had to have same talents is good.
what is the point on having all these talents when everyone had to use same ones to compete i ask.
so good for this, looking this more than pandas.
cheers
Yeah, when they revamped talents for Cataclysm, they locked the tree until you put in 31 points, and then you could place points in another tree. If you are raiding or pvping, you're most likely using the same spec as everyone else for your given class and spec. The trees in WotLK were overly bloated and full of filler talents, and you still had a best spec.
At least in this system there is going to be something resembling choice. Knowing Blizzard, they will revamp the system 3-4 times before MoP launches, and then still make changes during major content patches.
Agree with you completely on that problem ... no variety ... all fire mages are quall, frost also, ... etc etc. To be honest, loved much more beofore when player was able to chose different talents from any tree since scratch (but for sure some were put on must illogical places immaginable). At least there were different build ... there were fire mage ... and were fire mage. Last overhaoul just eliminated chices and made all totally linear.
About kung-fu ... ops, Pandarians and monks :-) I really love idea and can barely wait to be able to play.
It looks like all they did was take 1 ability from each tree and let you choose one of those three every 15 levels.
I still see in that screenshot that there will be a healer, tank, and dps layout for a pally. I don't see how it's going to change any. Vanilla WoW's talent system didn't start out as a PvP tree, Raid tree, and typically a 3rd useless tree. It just had a lot of useless talents for a lot of classes. It seems like the developers lost sight of what they were originally trying to do, make useless talents usefull, and they ended up just making each tree suit a specific purpose depending on if you're doing PvE or PvP.
If what they want is for people to hybrid, then stop making talents that are specific to gameplay, and just make allt he talents passive. Instead of having abilities within each tree that are effective in one area of play, generalize the trees to their specific branch. A mage that goes arcane would do so for mana conservation and to boost arcane damage, fire for improving cast time and to boosting fire damage, and frost for improving movement effects and for boosting frost damage.
I don't see them changing anything, but only simplifying it down so much that they end up with even more of a cooky cutter system.
neat idea to reduce the number of clicks oyu have to do to make a characeter, but i stil think your going to have cookie cutters taht favor certian abilities.
Less choice is always bad, more choice is always better. Sorry in this respect WoW's expansion fails in my eyes.
In the Current system there are more points but there are almost no options.
In the new system there are less points but more options.
In other words, right now, more than any other time in World of Warcraft, the talent system is on rails. Why make the players go through the motions of spending talent points if you already know which talents the players are going to choose.
And example: if you know everyone who plays an Assasination rogue is going to put three points into Coup De Grace, is that really a choice? Why make them go through the motions spending the points. Why not just give them Coup De Grace at a certain level.
Again, in the current (Horrible IMO) system there are lots of points and almost no real choices.
The new system looks better but only time will tell. I am looking forward to it.
My god how World of Warcraft has fallen.
Yes, it's a Skinner Box. That's also why I quit it a long time ago.
There's a lot of potential for an MMORPG - as in, a real one, an actual massively multiplayer online role-playing game. WoW isn't it, it's effectively a hack-n-slash gear grind with the appearance of an RPG (of course, that's true of virtually every other MMORPG, excepting a few of the smaller and more unique games). WoW isn't designed to allow you to role-play, it's designed to keep you on the gear grind hamster wheel for as long as possible.
But you actually hit on a serious issue: this is doing nothing to bring former players like us back. With declining subs, that's a critical issue. WoW has always had a steady rate of players quitting, even from the start; but they were able to win a lot of those players back with BC and WotLK, which helped keep subs high. That didn't happen with Cata, and I don't think it's going to happen with this expansion, which means that subs have only one direction to go: down. And nothing kills an MMORPG faster than the feeling that its world has gotten all too empty.
I think, in general, MMORPGs are moving away from a lot of "traditional" RPG elements, and rigidly fixed classes is one thing that is getting re-thought. I personally would like to see a lot of the old pen-and-paper RPG artifacts get dropped, including classes, rigid skill sets, fixed experience levels, and even static dungeons. There's just a lot that can be done given modern computing technology, but designers are simply not thinking out of the box.
Right now there's too much thinking that "it's good enough for WoW and its ten million subscribers, it should be good enough for our new WoW-like MMORPG". One of the reasons I'd like to see WoW stumble just a bit: it will prompt other game companies to start taking chances on new designs.
Guess the old myth is true: the only thing that can kill WoW is...WoW!
that's true, but it won't be for improving on the current horrible talent system.
Another example of how listening to community (probably while geting stoned) cannot always be a good thing. LOL
Main MMO at the moment: Guild Wars 2
Waiting for: Pathfinder Online
now your 5 year old wont even need to ask where to put the talents.
On the subject of less choice in MMOs, my son showed me some f2p mmo the other day where you literally clicked the quest in the quest-log, and your toon pathed and ran to the next phase automatically?! unbelievable. Better to just watch a movie (2 hours) than to play the stuff most companies seem to be coming out with now.
less choice = epic fail.