For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?
It's obvious that character progression is far more important than wealth progression. With more money, you simply become more in danger of solving all problems through money, and not reaching true character depth.
As your character progresses, you get stronger ethical understanding, and a deeper, more complex character. Who can be interested in a character in a game when your whole being could be summed up with 'He's got a lot of money and he buys things'? It's obvious that true moral conundrums that question you as a player and cause you to develop your character in unforseen ways will pose a more healthy and meaningful gameplay experience.
What? That's not what you were asking?
Well, then you're asking boring questions.
There is zero "character" progression in mmorpg's.
In fact all characters of all classes and all levels are exactly the same, you level up and gain better loot.
But if you had a house and a blacksmith shop that can be burned down by other players I bet you'd develop some "character" real fast, like not shit-talking in general chat.
NPC blacksmiths can still be used in place of the PC, for the making or selling of goods. You'll have to elaborate further on your NPC system, because it intrigues me. Cross between MMORPG and RTS. In RTS you give NPC's waypoints, and NPC's chop wood and mine.
You know how in an FPS you progress just by having no lag and being actually able to aim + shoot your gun better than the rest? Or camping or some other 'strategy'. When no gun really is all that powerful in comparison to others, there are no levels to make you stronger, so all you have is your own skill.
I don't want Character or Wealth based. I want skill based progression. I don't care if I don't have some 'level' or 'rank' showing off how far I've gotten, I can show how well I play by playing well.
A fantasy game that worked in the actiony format of a shooter, where you swing your sword, blast them spells and avoid the enemy in fast paced combat.. That's what I want. I know of games like this, I currently don't have access to any. It can even be fully PvP or PvE or a mix. Whatever happens it'll be really cool.
You know how in an FPS you progress just by having no lag and being actually able to aim + shoot your gun better than the rest? Or camping or some other 'strategy'. When no gun really is all that powerful in comparison to others, there are no levels to make you stronger, so all you have is your own skill.
I don't want Character or Wealth based. I want skill based progression. I don't care if I don't have some 'level' or 'rank' showing off how far I've gotten, I can show how well I play by playing well.
A fantasy game that worked in the actiony format of a shooter, where you swing your sword, blast them spells and avoid the enemy in fast paced combat.. That's what I want. I know of games like this, I currently don't have access to any. It can even be fully PvP or PvE or a mix. Whatever happens it'll be really cool.
You know how in an FPS you progress just by having no lag and being actually able to aim + shoot your gun better than the rest? Or camping or some other 'strategy'. When no gun really is all that powerful in comparison to others, there are no levels to make you stronger, so all you have is your own skill.
I don't want Character or Wealth based. I want skill based progression. I don't care if I don't have some 'level' or 'rank' showing off how far I've gotten, I can show how well I play by playing well.
A fantasy game that worked in the actiony format of a shooter, where you swing your sword, blast them spells and avoid the enemy in fast paced combat.. That's what I want. I know of games like this, I currently don't have access to any. It can even be fully PvP or PvE or a mix. Whatever happens it'll be really cool.
If there is no progression at all, then what's the point of a persistant world?
I know.
Whether there is one completely depends on the game, and having one as opposed to not makes them quite different, but both can be done well. I would play whether there was one or not.
You can't have both, it imbalances PVP. And if there is no PVP or indestructable player owned structures than it suffers from UO disease (player buildings everywhere).
Character progression: You do flex emotes in front of auction house for all to see your uber glowing sword and armor.
That is not character progression...
...that is gear progression.
Correct spelling Nazi.
OK fine gear progression, same thing since everyone hits max level.
Correct spelling Nazi?
And no, it is not the same thing in the least. Are you kidding? Character Progression is not Gear Progression. Gear Progression is not Character Progression. They are not the same thing in the least.
The gist of your question is more of are you a tactical or a strategic player - having very little to do with character progression or wealth progression...
...but regardless of that particular issue:
GEAR
PROGRESSION
IS NOT
CHARACTER
PROGRESSION!
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Character progression: You do flex emotes in front of auction house for all to see your uber glowing sword and armor.
That is not character progression...
...that is gear progression.
Correct spelling Nazi.
OK fine gear progression, same thing since everyone hits max level.
Correct spelling Nazi?
And no, it is not the same thing in the least. Are you kidding? Character Progression is not Gear Progression. Gear Progression is not Character Progression. They are not the same thing in the least.
The gist of your question is more of are you a tactical or a strategic player - having very little to do with character progression or wealth progression...
...but regardless of that particular issue:
GEAR
PROGRESSION
IS NOT
CHARACTER
PROGRESSION!
GEAR PROGRESSION HAS THE SAME EFFECT AS CHARACTER PROGRESSION, IT MIGHT AS WELL BE THE SAME THING! THINK OF GEAR PROGRESSION AS A SECONDARY LEVEL CAP AT RAID GEAR!
GEAR PROGRESSION HAS THE SAME EFFECT AS CHARACTER PROGRESSION, IT MIGHT AS WELL BE THE SAME THING! THINK OF GEAR PROGRESSION AS A SECONDARY LEVEL CAP AT RAID GEAR!
Woh Caps Lock Queen, cool it.
And no its not the same thing. Its only the same thing in over simplified games such as WoW.
GEAR PROGRESSION HAS THE SAME EFFECT AS CHARACTER PROGRESSION, IT MIGHT AS WELL BE THE SAME THING! THINK OF GEAR PROGRESSION AS A SECONDARY LEVEL CAP AT RAID GEAR!
Woh Caps Lock Queen, cool it.
And no its not the same thing. Its only the same thing in over simplified games such as WoW.
It's the same thing, and all games play like WOW. You hit level cap and keep on character progression by doing instances and raids, until you hit the gear cap then complain to devs about there being no content.
It's all character progression, you're character and you're character alone, especially since raid gear is *rolls eyes* "bind on equip".
*rolls eyes and sighs and then looks to the upper right*
Gear can be a part of character progression, in the fact that it makes your characetr progress in power as well as ability. The same is true of wealth since the more noterity the more wealth and the such the more your ccharacetr has rogressed in the game overall. It is a matter of opinion if gear or wealth is part of character progression, because to tthe raider or crafter the amount of either shows hwo much you have done and come in the game, or hwo far you have prrogressed. I prefer all forms of characetr prgression and story.
Gear can be a part of character progression, in the fact that it makes your characetr progress in power as well as ability. The same is true of wealth since the more noterity the more wealth and the such the more your ccharacetr has rogressed in the game overall. It is a matter of opinion if gear or wealth is part of character progression, because to tthe raider or crafter the amount of either shows hwo much you have done and come in the game, or hwo far you have prrogressed. I prefer all forms of characetr prgression and story.
I guess you missed the part when I said mixing "Real Time Strategy" mechanics.
Wow, it's so hard to have a theoretical conversation when the only form of MMORPG that exists is WOW-clone and that's all anyone knows, you say, "Wealth" and they assume it means a wealthy WOW character that's a blacksmith with lots of iron and diamonds to play with.
It's the same thing, and all games play like WOW. You hit level cap and keep on character progression by doing instances and raids, until you hit the gear cap then complain to devs about there being no content.
It's all character progression, you're character and you're character alone, especially since raid gear is *rolls eyes* "bind on equip".
*rolls eyes and sighs and then looks to the upper right*
No, there are games with Character progession. They are the games where what you do affects how strong you are in that area. Think games like MO, DFO, UO. They are also games with more useful crafting systems or other systems. For this one think Vanguard and how it has crafting levels as well as diplo levels and adventuring levels. WAR also has a form of character progression with its PvP levels, trophys, and its lorebook.
Character progression: You do flex emotes in front of auction house for all to see your uber glowing sword and armor.
That is not character progression...
...that is gear progression.
Correct spelling Nazi.
OK fine gear progression, same thing since everyone hits max level.
Correct spelling Nazi?
And no, it is not the same thing in the least. Are you kidding? Character Progression is not Gear Progression. Gear Progression is not Character Progression. They are not the same thing in the least.
The gist of your question is more of are you a tactical or a strategic player - having very little to do with character progression or wealth progression...
...but regardless of that particular issue:
GEAR
PROGRESSION
IS NOT
CHARACTER
PROGRESSION!
GEAR PROGRESSION HAS THE SAME EFFECT AS CHARACTER PROGRESSION, IT MIGHT AS WELL BE THE SAME THING! THINK OF GEAR PROGRESSION AS A SECONDARY LEVEL CAP AT RAID GEAR!
No, it does not.
Thank you for mentioning "RAID" in your reply, because that is where this pathetic misconception has originated - with raiders. It is the reason that we have ended up with so many crappy game lobby games instead of actual MMORPGs.
Let's use Tom and Jerry for an example.
We give both Tom and Jerry each a stick to beat the other with. Through character progression, they would become better at beating each other with that stick. The character actually progresses.
With gear progression, we'll give them better and better sticks. They never actually get better themselves. Take the better stick away. Tada - they have stagnated.
Say we have Tom following a character progression path. We have Jerry following a gear progression path. We'll go with their "stats" being the same as they progress. Now give Jerry Tom's stick and Tom Jerry's stick. Jerry's going to be a bloody smudge on the ground.
Gear Progression, Endgame, Carrot Chasing, etc - is character stagnation in most games.
It alienates many old MMORPG players and the new MMOGL players are never satisfied.
Most MMOs these days are populated by powergaming munchkins suffering equal parts OCD and ADHD.
It is funny that you want to separate Character Progression and Wealth Progression (generally tactical/strategic gaming). It is abnormal - in a sense. Generally speaking, there is a progression from playing the more tactical role to playing the more strategic role.
Heroes go about their adventures - growing in power - eventually with that power comes additional responsibility - which often translates into taking on a more strategic role than a tactical role.
Games such as Shadowbane and EVE Online come to mind with this. It has been represented countless times in fiction, as the heroes or groups of heroes find themselves in charge of armies, kingdoms, and the rest. Often, those heroes that have found themselves in those strategic roles with sneak off for some tactical adventures...they miss it.
There should be no reason to separate the two...in that sense.
No doubt though, there are players that prefer a FPS game to a RTS game (and vice versa). There are players that enjoy both. A game that could attract both, satisfy both, etc - well, how exactly would that be a bad thing?
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Character progression: You do flex emotes in front of auction house for all to see your uber glowing sword and armor.
Wealth progression: You own land, castles, dungeons, a business, and NPC's to do your bidding.
This is an either/or question, you can't have both. You cannot have both character progression and wealth progression. Eve Online has this and those that have been subscribed longer shut everyone else out of the high end content, and they hoard everything for themselves.
But if there is no character "progression", it would be as if everyone is the same level and equally killable, if you can get past their NPC guards or if you catch a wealthy character out in the open.
That highlighted part of a business hmmm that is what a crafter is a business man and producer of good. So still fits into that grouping as per what you placed into the definition. So you could actually read what you said and actually think before getting snotty abotu it. Also owning things is not wealth it is status you are looking for. IT would be better to label that as Status not wealth, sicne what you liste except for that one there is status symbols not really wealth. I could be wealthy with millions in savings but have nothing of what you list, or i could be poor with having gotten all you listed. Yet it is still characetr progression both ways you look at it. YOu gain things you progress yoru characetr and his/her goal, you progress in gear your character's ower grows progressing further into the game. I actually played game most likely longer then you have.
Using the tired and retarded insult of wow-this or that is pretty childish and shows you can not even think to look at your own questiona dn post in a way that is differnet from what you intended, after asking for others to give what they thought.
I tend to like the latter. Dungeon Empires, Grepolis, Ikariam, Lord of Ultima and a lot of the other persistent browser-based games (PBBG) are really nice diversions.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Although you have obviously worded your poll to make us vote for wealth progression, I still prefer character progression. It is an MMORPG, after all, not an MMORTS. Saying all that, I certainly wouldn't be opposed to a game that gives you both. Nothing wrong with combining the two, if done correctly.
Eve Online is why combining the two doesn't work correctly.
Why would you say I worded it to make you vote for wealth progression? In character progression games THEE endgame is getting your glowing sword and armor, that's it. How else can it be worded?
Character progression encompasses everything from fun talent/mastery/speccing systems, ability gains, and gear, to how your character's role in the story of the game advances (Ie. slowly becoming a famous heroic figure.) It's all about giving the player a sense of accomplishment, improvement and power. By your wording, you reduced this complex category to 1 single aspect, the one that is very frequently associated with vanity, macho egoism and superficiality. You most definitely did put a negative twist on that category. Heck, you even had me, a lover of character progression systems going all the way back to the days of the super nintendo Final Fantasies, thinking, "Well gee, that doesn't sound like very much fun."
I tend to like the latter. Dungeon Empires, Grepolis, Ikariam, Lord of Ultima and a lot of the other persistent browser-based games (PBBG) are really nice diversions.
Personally, I think what prevents this with most games is that first part of the acronym - MASSIVELY. There are simply too many players occupying what tend to be smallish worlds for us to have that level of metagaming. Where there are so many heroes and such...
...which I know is an odd thing to say, considering how barren many players find the worlds to be outside of the cities.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Although you have obviously worded your poll to make us vote for wealth progression, I still prefer character progression. It is an MMORPG, after all, not an MMORTS. Saying all that, I certainly wouldn't be opposed to a game that gives you both. Nothing wrong with combining the two, if done correctly.
Eve Online is why combining the two doesn't work correctly.
Why would you say I worded it to make you vote for wealth progression? In character progression games THEE endgame is getting your glowing sword and armor, that's it. How else can it be worded?
Character progression encompasses everything from fun talent/mastery/speccing systems, ability gains, and gear, to how your character's role in the story of the game advances (Ie. slowly becoming a famous heroic figure.) It's all about giving the player a sense of accomplishment, improvement and power. By your wording, you reduced this complex category to 1 single aspect, the one that is very frequently associated with vanity, macho egoism and superficiality. You most definitely did put a negative twist on that category. Heck, you even had me, a lover of character progression systems going all the way back to the days of the super nintendo Final Fantasies, thinking, "Well gee, that doesn't sound like very much fun."
Shhh, Homitu! He thinks he's actually pulling this one off. Let him keep going. It's more fun letting him think he's got everyone snowed.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Character progression and Gear progression is the exact same thing: you get better stats, that's it.
Tony Stewart in a NASCAR Camry.
You in a NASCAR Camry.
You've both got the same "gear".
Tony will smoke you.
* * * * *
Tony Stewart in a Corolla.
You in a NASCAR Camry.
You've got the better car.
Tony will still smoke you.
* * * * *
Character Progression and Gear Progression are not the same thing. Both can involve stat progression, but they are not the same thing.
Alternate Advancement is character progression - no gear involved. The ability to unlock additional skill paths/abilities is character progression - no gear involved. Even the ability to utilize additional types of gear could be considered character progression - where there may not actually be gear progression involved.
MMOs suffer from character stagnation at the expense of gear progression. Chase that better sword - it's better! You're the same, but with the sword you're better! It's no wonder that Apple has done so well - here's the iPhone 9000, you've got to buy it - it's better than the iPhone 8999 that you bought earlier today! That insane mindset has infected MMORPGs with all the carrot chasing going on.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
GEAR PROGRESSION HAS THE SAME EFFECT AS CHARACTER PROGRESSION, IT MIGHT AS WELL BE THE SAME THING! THINK OF GEAR PROGRESSION AS A SECONDARY LEVEL CAP AT RAID GEAR!
Wealth progresison is pretty damn similar to character progression too.
In Terraria wealth progression basically *is* character progression.
Should we call off this entire thread on account of not enough logic or maturity to hold a reasonable discussion?
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Wealth progresison is pretty damn similar to character progression too.
In Terraria wealth progression basically *is* character progression.
No they are 2 completely different things. Did you read the original post? And what the hell is Terraria, could you possibly come up with a more unknown title?
Character progression and Gear progression is the exact same thing: you get better stats, that's it.
Tony Stewart in a NASCAR Camry.
You in a NASCAR Camry.
You've both got the same "gear".
Tony will smoke you.
* * * * *
Tony Stewart in a Corolla.
You in a NASCAR Camry.
You've got the better car.
Tony will still smoke you.
* * * * *
Character Progression and Gear Progression are not the same thing. Both can involve stat progression, but they are not the same thing.
Alternate Advancement is character progression - no gear involved. The ability to unlock additional skill paths/abilities is character progression - no gear involved. Even the ability to utilize additional types of gear could be considered character progression - where there may not actually be gear progression involved.
MMOs suffer from character stagnation at the expense of gear progression. Chase that better sword - it's better! You're the same, but with the sword you're better! It's no wonder that Apple has done so well - here's the iPhone 9000, you've got to buy it - it's better than the iPhone 8999 that you bought earlier today! That insane mindset has infected MMORPGs with all the carrot chasing going on.
What you are using as an example is player skill progression, not character progression. If you are right, that means if I drive more I will eventually be as good as him, which isn't the case here.
Character progression ingame doesn't pose any challenge because it acts as a guideline as to how player is progression through the game, you are expected to reach the end of the progression, where gear progression provides a grind challenge which comes after you hit the top of the character progression (lets be honest here, you can pretty much use quest gear for 90% MMORPG till endgame, if that is what people call gear progression, I will quit all my MMO game right now), thus MMO doesn't really pose a real challenge other than a game for grinding patience and numerical speadsheet skills.
As long as there are simple character progression like levels and combat with pure numerical factors such as aggro and dps to dictate the outcome of battles, you can expect gear progression to be just right there with it. Gear progression is a manifestation of MMORPG players obessions with numbers, they blame lag and want a combat system where they can 'plan' their strategy, planning is 50% of strategy, the other half is how you deal with surprise events, which is what MMO players call twitch. As much players don't want to admit it, twitch is a huge factor in any realistic and competitive combat, pure numbers can't do everything.
How much WoW could a WoWhater hate, if a WoWhater could hate WoW? As much WoW as a WoWhater would, if a WoWhater could hate WoW.
Comments
There is zero "character" progression in mmorpg's.
In fact all characters of all classes and all levels are exactly the same, you level up and gain better loot.
But if you had a house and a blacksmith shop that can be burned down by other players I bet you'd develop some "character" real fast, like not shit-talking in general chat.
You know how in an FPS you progress just by having no lag and being actually able to aim + shoot your gun better than the rest? Or camping or some other 'strategy'. When no gun really is all that powerful in comparison to others, there are no levels to make you stronger, so all you have is your own skill.
I don't want Character or Wealth based. I want skill based progression. I don't care if I don't have some 'level' or 'rank' showing off how far I've gotten, I can show how well I play by playing well.
A fantasy game that worked in the actiony format of a shooter, where you swing your sword, blast them spells and avoid the enemy in fast paced combat.. That's what I want. I know of games like this, I currently don't have access to any. It can even be fully PvP or PvE or a mix. Whatever happens it'll be really cool.
already exists
http://www.savage2.com/en/main.php
If there is no progression at all, then what's the point of a persistant world?
I'd love to have both....
Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)
I know.
Whether there is one completely depends on the game, and having one as opposed to not makes them quite different, but both can be done well. I would play whether there was one or not.
You can't have both, it imbalances PVP. And if there is no PVP or indestructable player owned structures than it suffers from UO disease (player buildings everywhere).
Correct spelling Nazi?
And no, it is not the same thing in the least. Are you kidding? Character Progression is not Gear Progression. Gear Progression is not Character Progression. They are not the same thing in the least.
The gist of your question is more of are you a tactical or a strategic player - having very little to do with character progression or wealth progression...
...but regardless of that particular issue:
GEAR
PROGRESSION
IS NOT
CHARACTER
PROGRESSION!
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%
GEAR PROGRESSION HAS THE SAME EFFECT AS CHARACTER PROGRESSION, IT MIGHT AS WELL BE THE SAME THING! THINK OF GEAR PROGRESSION AS A SECONDARY LEVEL CAP AT RAID GEAR!
Woh Caps Lock Queen, cool it.
And no its not the same thing. Its only the same thing in over simplified games such as WoW.
It's the same thing, and all games play like WOW. You hit level cap and keep on character progression by doing instances and raids, until you hit the gear cap then complain to devs about there being no content.
It's all character progression, you're character and you're character alone, especially since raid gear is *rolls eyes* "bind on equip".
*rolls eyes and sighs and then looks to the upper right*
Gear can be a part of character progression, in the fact that it makes your characetr progress in power as well as ability. The same is true of wealth since the more noterity the more wealth and the such the more your ccharacetr has rogressed in the game overall. It is a matter of opinion if gear or wealth is part of character progression, because to tthe raider or crafter the amount of either shows hwo much you have done and come in the game, or hwo far you have prrogressed. I prefer all forms of characetr prgression and story.
I guess you missed the part when I said mixing "Real Time Strategy" mechanics.
Wow, it's so hard to have a theoretical conversation when the only form of MMORPG that exists is WOW-clone and that's all anyone knows, you say, "Wealth" and they assume it means a wealthy WOW character that's a blacksmith with lots of iron and diamonds to play with.
No, there are games with Character progession. They are the games where what you do affects how strong you are in that area. Think games like MO, DFO, UO. They are also games with more useful crafting systems or other systems. For this one think Vanguard and how it has crafting levels as well as diplo levels and adventuring levels. WAR also has a form of character progression with its PvP levels, trophys, and its lorebook.
No, it does not.
Thank you for mentioning "RAID" in your reply, because that is where this pathetic misconception has originated - with raiders. It is the reason that we have ended up with so many crappy game lobby games instead of actual MMORPGs.
Let's use Tom and Jerry for an example.
We give both Tom and Jerry each a stick to beat the other with. Through character progression, they would become better at beating each other with that stick. The character actually progresses.
With gear progression, we'll give them better and better sticks. They never actually get better themselves. Take the better stick away. Tada - they have stagnated.
Say we have Tom following a character progression path. We have Jerry following a gear progression path. We'll go with their "stats" being the same as they progress. Now give Jerry Tom's stick and Tom Jerry's stick. Jerry's going to be a bloody smudge on the ground.
Gear Progression, Endgame, Carrot Chasing, etc - is character stagnation in most games.
It alienates many old MMORPG players and the new MMOGL players are never satisfied.
Most MMOs these days are populated by powergaming munchkins suffering equal parts OCD and ADHD.
It is funny that you want to separate Character Progression and Wealth Progression (generally tactical/strategic gaming). It is abnormal - in a sense. Generally speaking, there is a progression from playing the more tactical role to playing the more strategic role.
Heroes go about their adventures - growing in power - eventually with that power comes additional responsibility - which often translates into taking on a more strategic role than a tactical role.
Games such as Shadowbane and EVE Online come to mind with this. It has been represented countless times in fiction, as the heroes or groups of heroes find themselves in charge of armies, kingdoms, and the rest. Often, those heroes that have found themselves in those strategic roles with sneak off for some tactical adventures...they miss it.
There should be no reason to separate the two...in that sense.
No doubt though, there are players that prefer a FPS game to a RTS game (and vice versa). There are players that enjoy both. A game that could attract both, satisfy both, etc - well, how exactly would that be a bad thing?
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%
That highlighted part of a business hmmm that is what a crafter is a business man and producer of good. So still fits into that grouping as per what you placed into the definition. So you could actually read what you said and actually think before getting snotty abotu it. Also owning things is not wealth it is status you are looking for. IT would be better to label that as Status not wealth, sicne what you liste except for that one there is status symbols not really wealth. I could be wealthy with millions in savings but have nothing of what you list, or i could be poor with having gotten all you listed. Yet it is still characetr progression both ways you look at it. YOu gain things you progress yoru characetr and his/her goal, you progress in gear your character's ower grows progressing further into the game. I actually played game most likely longer then you have.
Using the tired and retarded insult of wow-this or that is pretty childish and shows you can not even think to look at your own questiona dn post in a way that is differnet from what you intended, after asking for others to give what they thought.
I tend to like the latter. Dungeon Empires, Grepolis, Ikariam, Lord of Ultima and a lot of the other persistent browser-based games (PBBG) are really nice diversions.
More CMS, RTS and SLG in my MMO, plz!
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Character progression encompasses everything from fun talent/mastery/speccing systems, ability gains, and gear, to how your character's role in the story of the game advances (Ie. slowly becoming a famous heroic figure.) It's all about giving the player a sense of accomplishment, improvement and power. By your wording, you reduced this complex category to 1 single aspect, the one that is very frequently associated with vanity, macho egoism and superficiality. You most definitely did put a negative twist on that category. Heck, you even had me, a lover of character progression systems going all the way back to the days of the super nintendo Final Fantasies, thinking, "Well gee, that doesn't sound like very much fun."
Character progression and Gear progression is the exact same thing: you get better stats, that's it.
Personally, I think what prevents this with most games is that first part of the acronym - MASSIVELY. There are simply too many players occupying what tend to be smallish worlds for us to have that level of metagaming. Where there are so many heroes and such...
...which I know is an odd thing to say, considering how barren many players find the worlds to be outside of the cities.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%
Shhh, Homitu! He thinks he's actually pulling this one off. Let him keep going. It's more fun letting him think he's got everyone snowed.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Tony Stewart in a NASCAR Camry.
You in a NASCAR Camry.
You've both got the same "gear".
Tony will smoke you.
* * * * *
Tony Stewart in a Corolla.
You in a NASCAR Camry.
You've got the better car.
Tony will still smoke you.
* * * * *
Character Progression and Gear Progression are not the same thing. Both can involve stat progression, but they are not the same thing.
Alternate Advancement is character progression - no gear involved. The ability to unlock additional skill paths/abilities is character progression - no gear involved. Even the ability to utilize additional types of gear could be considered character progression - where there may not actually be gear progression involved.
MMOs suffer from character stagnation at the expense of gear progression. Chase that better sword - it's better! You're the same, but with the sword you're better! It's no wonder that Apple has done so well - here's the iPhone 9000, you've got to buy it - it's better than the iPhone 8999 that you bought earlier today! That insane mindset has infected MMORPGs with all the carrot chasing going on.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%
Wealth progresison is pretty damn similar to character progression too.
In Terraria wealth progression basically *is* character progression.
Should we call off this entire thread on account of not enough logic or maturity to hold a reasonable discussion?
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
No they are 2 completely different things. Did you read the original post? And what the hell is Terraria, could you possibly come up with a more unknown title?
What you are using as an example is player skill progression, not character progression. If you are right, that means if I drive more I will eventually be as good as him, which isn't the case here.
Character progression ingame doesn't pose any challenge because it acts as a guideline as to how player is progression through the game, you are expected to reach the end of the progression, where gear progression provides a grind challenge which comes after you hit the top of the character progression (lets be honest here, you can pretty much use quest gear for 90% MMORPG till endgame, if that is what people call gear progression, I will quit all my MMO game right now), thus MMO doesn't really pose a real challenge other than a game for grinding patience and numerical speadsheet skills.
As long as there are simple character progression like levels and combat with pure numerical factors such as aggro and dps to dictate the outcome of battles, you can expect gear progression to be just right there with it. Gear progression is a manifestation of MMORPG players obessions with numbers, they blame lag and want a combat system where they can 'plan' their strategy, planning is 50% of strategy, the other half is how you deal with surprise events, which is what MMO players call twitch. As much players don't want to admit it, twitch is a huge factor in any realistic and competitive combat, pure numbers can't do everything.
How much WoW could a WoWhater hate, if a WoWhater could hate WoW?
As much WoW as a WoWhater would, if a WoWhater could hate WoW.