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What type of progression would you prefer, character or wealth?

Nerf09Nerf09 Phoenix, AZPosts: 2,953Member

Character progression:  You do flex emotes in front of auction house for all to see your uber glowing sword and armor.

Wealth progression:  You own land, castles, dungeons, a business, and NPC's to do your bidding.

 

This is an either/or question, you can't have both.  You cannot have both character progression and wealth progression.  Eve Online has this and those that have been subscribed longer shut everyone else out of the high end content, and they hoard everything for themselves.

But if there is no character "progression", it would be as if everyone is the same level and equally killable, if you can get past their NPC guards or if you catch a wealthy character out in the open.

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Comments

  • Nerf09Nerf09 Phoenix, AZPosts: 2,953Member

    This is another one of my attempts to merge MMORPG and Real Time Strategy.  MMORPG/RTS?   MMORTS/RPG.  Lots of NPC's in RTS with resource gathering (logistics), and strategy, it is called real time "strategy".

  • ZooceZooce B, FLPosts: 586Member

    I prefer Character progression in this specific case you have described.  Glowing sword and sexy armor > everyone else hating my price gouging business practices.

  • Biggus99Biggus99 Mesa, AZPosts: 916Member

    Although you have obviously worded your poll to make us vote for wealth progression, I still prefer character progression.  It is an MMORPG, after all, not an MMORTS.  Saying all that, I certainly wouldn't be opposed to a game that gives you both.  Nothing wrong with combining the two, if done correctly. 

  • Nerf09Nerf09 Phoenix, AZPosts: 2,953Member

    Originally posted by Biggus99

    Although you have obviously worded your poll to make us vote for wealth progression, I still prefer character progression.  It is an MMORPG, after all, not an MMORTS.  Saying all that, I certainly wouldn't be opposed to a game that gives you both.  Nothing wrong with combining the two, if done correctly. 

    Eve Online is why combining the two doesn't work correctly.

    Why would you say I worded it to make you vote for wealth progression?  In character progression games THEE endgame is getting your glowing sword and armor, that's it.  How else can it be worded?

  • WizardryWizardry Ontario, CanadaPosts: 8,464Member Uncommon

    Wel i am sorry but i would ONLY vote both and i would never use Eve to compare anything ,it is maybe the worst design in this MMO genre.However Character is MORE important after all that is your ROLE PLAYING reason to be in the game,without him you have no need of wealth lol.

    There is no reason to lock anyone out,PVP should not be the focus of the game anyhow,FUN and getting along with other players should be the focus.I play FPS games for fast action paced pvp.

    The wealth part is also subjective ,for example i would love a house that looks awesome inside and out,i don't care about if it is a castle or a snuggly warm log cabin nor do i care about which is worth more.

    Once you create the NEED to have the BEST it really curves the game away from FUN,people start using RMT, the economy gets broken,groups start to shun those that don't have the BEST,Raids shun those that don't have the best.That whole design is a VERY non friendly one.


    Samoan Diamond

  • ZooceZooce B, FLPosts: 586Member

    Collecting wealth should allow you to buy nice items.  Eden Eternal is an example where both are present and functional.  Through the hardest dungeons and raids you can obtain BoP gear.  BoE forms of the gear are also available through crafting and are quite expensive to produce and obtain.

  • Nerf09Nerf09 Phoenix, AZPosts: 2,953Member

    Diablo2. 

    "I want to trade A,B,C for X,Y,Z.  Or I'll settle for A and B for Z, anyone want to trade?"

    Someone opens up trade panel and starts putting in and taking out Traing-oul's armor.

    "Yeah that's great you got the full set, wanna trade ABC for XYZ?"

    They then show you their runed weapon.

    "Wow isn't that fantastic you're real leet."

    .

    .

    .

    .

    Diablo2's version of doing flex emotes in front of auction house.  Whoopty do.

  • Nerf09Nerf09 Phoenix, AZPosts: 2,953Member

    Originally posted by Zooce

    Collecting wealth should allow you to buy nice items.  Eden Eternal is an example where both are present and functional.  Through the hardest dungeons and raids you can obtain BoP gear.  BoE forms of the gear are also available through crafting and are quite expensive to produce and obtain.

    That's character progression.

    Wealth could be owning better armor but not WOW-clone better where you have a billion more hitpoints than someone in loincloth and a rusted dagger.

    Wealth is owning land, buildings, NPC's, gold, raw materials, factories, anything that isn't character progression.

  • Cactus-ManCactus-Man The Ocean, NCPosts: 572Member

    I have little value for stuff, be it weapons, armor, houses, mines or whatever, I get it because I have too not because I find it interesting.

    So it wouldn't bother me at all if a game was based totally around leveling my character and not obtaining items.

    All men think they're fascinating. In my case, it's justified

  • Nerf09Nerf09 Phoenix, AZPosts: 2,953Member

    Visiting the one of hundred of topics on this site about the same PVP topic, someone is arguing why world pvp isn't as good as instanced battleground PVP, it's so imbalanced.  blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaf'ing AH.

    Actually battleground PVP is also imbalanced, if you're in greens and the guy your fighting is in blues you're going to lose.

    But if a game isn't based on character progression and you had an army of 10 NPC's and the enemy had an army of 50 NPC's, and the game was made realistic enough you could perhaps take up position at a small chokepoint (movie 300) where numbers mean less.  In Total War games like Medieval Total War, if you are outnumbered you CAN still win, and at the very least take down an equal amount of enemy forces as you lost.   So if you lose all 10, the enemy with 50 NPC's also loses 10.

    Take down an equal amount of enemy NPC's as you lost, even if you are outnumbered 5:1, this is better than losing 100%  to someone who has better gear or a higher level than you in a character progression game, not inflicting one ounce of pain on them.  In a character progression game the loser loses 100% and the winner loses 0%.

  • VirusDancerVirusDancer Brandon, FLPosts: 3,649Member

    Originally posted by Nerf09

    Character progression:  You do flex emotes in front of auction house for all to see your uber glowing sword and armor.

    That is not character progression...

    ...that is gear progression.

    I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?

    Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%

  • jadedlevirjadedlevir Kansas, AKPosts: 628Member

    I don't want a  game to revovle around a single thing. I want a game that revovles around getting better gear, but not because you killed a big boss, but because your guild has elite and experienced crafters that know how to refine the best metals and how to turn those quality materials into quality weapons and armor. And when I say knowledge, i dont mean they have a recipe they learned by spamming "make bamboo wand," but because they have information on ratios and porptions in order to refine metal from minerals. And have learned and tested techniques they got from testing armor in battle, then refining their recipes. Like Mortal Online, except even deeper and more complex...

    Also, to have progression based on personal and guild assets. Say if your a solo player, and you work on building a house out in some secluded forrest by chopping trees. And build up from their. Or joining a guild and building huge castles and cities. Or coastal trading ports, ect... Then having pvp focused around actual land conquer gameplay... or a band of murderers that roams around trade routes.. or policing your guilds territory. Having naval combat in addition to this.

    Then for pve, you don't get armor and weapons (unless the enemy you kill is wearing it), but you get rare materials, or trading goods (like jewels that can be used in crafting), ect. Or lets say you raid a pve encampment, and you loot their stash of materials(say filled with gold or textiles.)

    Theres a lot of things i can go on about, but you get the point...im tired of this kill a instanced boss and get told your worth by color code bs.

  • Nerf09Nerf09 Phoenix, AZPosts: 2,953Member

    Originally posted by VirusDancer

    Originally posted by Nerf09

    Character progression:  You do flex emotes in front of auction house for all to see your uber glowing sword and armor.

    That is not character progression...

    ...that is gear progression.

    Correct spelling Nazi.

    OK fine gear progression, same thing since everyone hits max level.

  • Nerf09Nerf09 Phoenix, AZPosts: 2,953Member

    Like in starcraft at a small opening choke point you can have a battle between 10 zerglings and 50 enemy zerglings, you lose 10 zerglings and the enemy also loses 10 zerglings.  Using tactics you can inflict an equal amount of damage.  Although you still lose the battle you inflicted an equal amount of pain the enemy inflicted on you.

    Or in Medieval Total War, you can put archers up on a hill, and in front of archers 1 unit of melee.  You can be outnumbered 3 to 1 but still win the battle, by using tactics. 

    This is impossible with character progression games. 

    I spit on item/character progression games  *PTOOEY!*

  • AxehiltAxehilt San Francisco, CAPosts: 8,757Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Biggus99

    Although you have obviously worded your poll to make us vote for wealth progression, I still prefer character progression.  It is an MMORPG, after all, not an MMORTS.  Saying all that, I certainly wouldn't be opposed to a game that gives you both.  Nothing wrong with combining the two, if done correctly. 

    What MMORPGs don't combine both?

    Few, if any.

    "Joe stated his case logically and passionately, but his perceived effeminate voice only drew big gales of stupid laughter..." -Idiocracy
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  • DeivosDeivos Mountain View, CAPosts: 1,813Member Uncommon

    Mount&Blade

    "The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners."
    - Thomas B. Macaulay

  • ThorqemadaThorqemada BerlinPosts: 1,277Member Uncommon

    Wealth progression is nice but even nicer it is to have also character progression.
    Character progression ist not bad, it only goes to far in common mmos - make some people semigods for each 5 to 10 levels difference is bad.

    "Torquemada... do not implore him for compassion. Torquemada... do not beg him for forgiveness. Torquemada... do not ask him for mercy. Let's face it, you can't Torquemada anything!"

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  • SirAgravaineSirAgravaine ., MOPosts: 91Member Uncommon

    Neither should be the main focus of an MMORPG, but out of the two narrow and obviously biased answers you offer I chose Wealth Progression.The character progression model you offered (level/gear based) is certainly a design that is popular but in my opinion has too many disadvantages to be the ideal progression system. As some have stated above, both systems should be employed for maximum enjoyment and immersion but I offer a different design approach to character progression.

    One way characters could progress is through real experience (i.e. FPS) which ties directly into the wealth progression model. For example, if my character is a blacksmith and has developed a solid formula for smelting an alloy stronger than steel, I have gained actual working knowledge for my in game discipline. When I combine this knowledge with the resources I have already gained (a forge, tools, and perhaps a spoken contract with a mining guild) I can advance my trade, and perhaps open a storefront in the capital city to sell my wares.

    Character progression can also refer to advancement of status, such as gaining rank in the military. For instance in times of war or great conflict soldiers may be promoted because of their actions in combat rather than through more standardized ways. If a character that is enlisted in a mobile infantry unit has performed an act of heroicism at risk of their own life (i.e. permadeath) and for the safety and security of their platoon, they may be awarded the Medal of Honor, and promoted to the next rank. This promotion increases their pay and their position within the heirarchy of their unit, giving them the ability to command more men on dropship missions on contested planets.

    Lastly character progression can refer to social progression. When players interact with other players they have the opportunity to form relationships and if this player is a manufacturer or tradesman they may gain clients. The more a character such as this interacts socially and promotes their wares the more they gain in wealth and can expand their business. This social power they have gained may lead them to merge with other corporations and form conglomerates, merging each client base of the successful companies until the original tradesman is now a managing CEO of a larger series of businesses that provide goods to player organizations that focus on other aspects of a game. Not only do they have power from wealth but through social reputation, which often has an equivalent or more potent effect on other players.

  • Nerf09Nerf09 Phoenix, AZPosts: 2,953Member

    Originally posted by ~Oblivion~

     

    Neither should be the main focus of an MMORPG, but out of the two narrow and obviously biased answers you offer I chose Wealth Progression.The character progression model you offered (level/gear based) is certainly a design that is popular but in my opinion has too many disadvantages to be the ideal progression system. As some have stated above, both systems should be employed for maximum enjoyment and immersion but I offer a different design approach to character progression.

    One way characters could progress is through real experience (i.e. FPS) which ties directly into the wealth progression model. For example, if my character is a blacksmith and has developed a solid formula for smelting an alloy stronger than steel, I have gained actual working knowledge for my in game discipline. When I combine this knowledge with the resources I have already gained (a forge, tools, and perhaps a spoken contract with a mining guild) I can advance my trade, and perhaps open a storefront in the capital city to sell my wares.

     

     

    Character progression can also refer to advancement of status, such as gaining rank in the military. For instance in times of war or great conflict soldiers may be promoted because of their actions in combat rather than through more standardized ways. If a character that is enlisted in a mobile infantry unit has performed an act of heroicism at risk of their own life (i.e. permadeath) and for the safety and security of their platoon, they may be awarded the Medal of Honor, and promoted to the next rank. This promotion increases their pay and their position within the heirarchy of their unit, giving them the ability to command more men on dropship missions on contested planets.

     

     

    Lastly character progression can refer to social progression. When players interact with other players they have the opportunity to form relationships and if this player is a manufacturer or tradesman they may gain clients. The more a character such as this interacts socially and promotes their wares the more they gain in wealth and can expand their business. This social power they have gained may lead them to merge with other corporations and form conglomerates, merging each client base of the successful companies until the original tradesman is now a managing CEO of a larger series of businesses that provide goods to player organizations that focus on other aspects of a game. Not only do they have power from wealth but through social reputation, which often has an equivalent or more potent effect on other players.

     

    Your first 2 examples are more like wealth progression.  Levels and gear grind are about combat.

    As far as your first example, it would negate the need to hire NPC blacksmiths if a player can be sooo much better than NPC's.  A living breathing world needs NPC's going hither and thither, waypoints created by PLAYERS not developers, and destroyable in combat.  Developer NPC's pop right back up and wander hither and thither like zombies and have no function other than to be killed.

  • SirAgravaineSirAgravaine ., MOPosts: 91Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Nerf09


    Originally posted by ~Oblivion~

     
    Neither should be the main focus of an MMORPG, but out of the two narrow and obviously biased answers you offer I chose Wealth Progression.The character progression model you offered (level/gear based) is certainly a design that is popular but in my opinion has too many disadvantages to be the ideal progression system. As some have stated above, both systems should be employed for maximum enjoyment and immersion but I offer a different design approach to character progression.
    One way characters could progress is through real experience (i.e. FPS) which ties directly into the wealth progression model. For example, if my character is a blacksmith and has developed a solid formula for smelting an alloy stronger than steel, I have gained actual working knowledge for my in game discipline. When I combine this knowledge with the resources I have already gained (a forge, tools, and perhaps a spoken contract with a mining guild) I can advance my trade, and perhaps open a storefront in the capital city to sell my wares.
     
     
    Character progression can also refer to advancement of status, such as gaining rank in the military. For instance in times of war or great conflict soldiers may be promoted because of their actions in combat rather than through more standardized ways. If a character that is enlisted in a mobile infantry unit has performed an act of heroicism at risk of their own life (i.e. permadeath) and for the safety and security of their platoon, they may be awarded the Medal of Honor, and promoted to the next rank. This promotion increases their pay and their position within the heirarchy of their unit, giving them the ability to command more men on dropship missions on contested planets.
     
     
    Lastly character progression can refer to social progression. When players interact with other players they have the opportunity to form relationships and if this player is a manufacturer or tradesman they may gain clients. The more a character such as this interacts socially and promotes their wares the more they gain in wealth and can expand their business. This social power they have gained may lead them to merge with other corporations and form conglomerates, merging each client base of the successful companies until the original tradesman is now a managing CEO of a larger series of businesses that provide goods to player organizations that focus on other aspects of a game. Not only do they have power from wealth but through social reputation, which often has an equivalent or more potent effect on other players.
     

    Your first 2 examples are more like wealth progression.  Levels and gear grind are about combat.

    As far as your first example, it would negate the need to hire NPC blacksmiths if a player can be sooo much better than NPC's.  A living breathing world needs NPC's going hither and thither, waypoints created by PLAYERS not developers, and destroyable in combat.  Developer NPC's pop right back up and wander hither and thither like zombies and have no function other than to be killed.

     


    NPC blacksmiths can still be used in place of the PC, for the making or selling of goods. You'll have to elaborate further on your NPC system, because it intrigues me. I like the idea of player influenced NPC actions, such as: retrieve this, sell here, I will meet you there, go home, etc.


    Levels and gear are not actually for combat, but rather for the illusion of advancement of character. The only advancement in combat in MMORPGs that use this progression model are usually skills/abilities and/or combat tactics. Despite changes in level (numbers), and gear (numbers/appearance), combat stays relatively proportional despite the increased values. Changes in level and gear are purely aesthetic and not necessarily functional, unless they tie into other systems (i.e. level requirements, gear requirements) which now locks down parts of the game world to a specific point in progression for a character, which makes a game more linear in design.


    All of my examples were character progression models, but they are not as tangible as the standard level/gear model. Knowledge IS character progression, or perhaps more accurately put: player progression, and affects the player's ability within a game, knowledge can be found in the level/gear model. Status is also character progression, as it affects how the character interacts with the game world, and is often exhibited in standard models as well (class lead, guild master, arena champion etc.). Lastly social power is a prevelant aspect of most MMORPGs despite the progression model that is used. EVE online is a great example of its affect on the game world but it can also be seen in games such as WoW. My example of how reputation progresses the character is actually taken directly from SWG. All three of these types of progression exist in current MMO's to some degree but usually alongside an aesthetic progression system that causes unwanted segregation of player populations. Wealth is a more preferable system of segregation as it fluctuates and has a less impacting effect on player interaction.


    I believe equipment can be a useful mechanic to display the progression of a character, but only if the equipment's primary change is functionality (i.e. a tool that unlocks new crafting avenues rather than increasing quality) and not aesthetic. Rather than using equipment for progression or advancement however, I believe strategic equipment balance and choice offers a more dynamic system than a linear scaling progression model (early EVE is a good example of this).


    Progression should be left more so in the realm of wealth and real world experience than it should be in the game's mechanics (i.e increased damage, crafting quality, material type etc). I like the idea of players no matter their playtime in the game all having the same baseline, and the only advantage they have over one or the other is real experience, reputation, status and perhaps more functinally or tactically sound equipment.

  • MeowheadMeowhead New Carlisle, INPosts: 3,716Member

    Matthew 16:26

    For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

    It's obvious that character progression is far more important than wealth progression.  With more money, you simply become more in danger of solving all problems through money, and not reaching true character depth.

    As your character progresses, you get stronger ethical understanding, and a deeper, more complex character.  Who can be interested in a character in a game when your whole being could be summed up with 'He's got a lot of money and he buys things'?  It's obvious that true moral conundrums that question you as a player and cause you to develop your character in unforseen ways will pose a more healthy and meaningful gameplay experience.

    What?  That's not what you were asking?

    Well, then you're asking boring questions.

  • mrxennonmrxennon JarrowPosts: 209Member

    Character, it should always be about character.

  • SirAgravaineSirAgravaine ., MOPosts: 91Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Meowhead

    Matthew 16:26
    For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?
    It's obvious that character progression is far more important than wealth progression.  With more money, you simply become more in danger of solving all problems through money, and not reaching true character depth.
    As your character progresses, you get stronger ethical understanding, and a deeper, more complex character.  Who can be interested in a character in a game when your whole being could be summed up with 'He's got a lot of money and he buys things'?  It's obvious that true moral conundrums that question you as a player and cause you to develop your character in unforseen ways will pose a more healthy and meaningful gameplay experience.
    What?  That's not what you were asking?
    Well, then you're asking boring questions.

     

    I like your take on character progression, but it seems to conflict with the OP's definition of it. Wealth progression should be used realistically, if I have been playing a game 10 years and have not made efforts to amass a fortune then I should not have said fortune. I believe a properly implemented economy would allow a wealth progression model to perfectly compliment a proper character progression model.
  • xKingdomxxKingdomx SydneyPosts: 1,541Member

    Well both of them is fine.

     

    Wealth progression is really just another form of character progression tho, since I presume you still control a character.

    But the idea sounds much more interesting than just another character glow weapon progression. I'm not a huge fan of glowing weapons, I just prefer cool weapons with no glow, or just shiny instead of some weird glow around it.

     

    Persisent housing ftw

    How much WoW could a WoWhater hate, if a WoWhater could hate WoW?
    As much WoW as a WoWhater would, if a WoWhater could hate WoW.

  • Nerf09Nerf09 Phoenix, AZPosts: 2,953Member

    Originally posted by xKingdomx

    Well both of them is fine.

     

    Wealth progression is really just another form of character progression tho, since I presume you still control a character.

    But the idea sounds much more interesting than just another character glow weapon progression. I'm not a huge fan of glowing weapons, I just prefer cool weapons with no glow, or just shiny instead of some weird glow around it.

     

    Persisent housing ftw

    It's not the same thing, it's 2 radically different game concepts to the point where it's almost a MMORTS, or a cross between MMORTS and MMORPG.  I think this is the only way to go because character progression totally screws up PVP. 

    Look at what's being planned in Guild Wars2, in PVP all characters magically become the same level.  Sounds like a bandaid solution, personally I think the ultimate solution is to get rid of character progression altogether.

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