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What is Endgame to you?
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Member Posts: 611
Endgame.
The very idea sends shivers down my spine, personally. It means the game is over. It is at the end. You have reached level cap and may go no further. You are the Balrog faced by Gandalf. You shall not pass.
For many, Endgame must be achieved fast and furious. This I don't understand. How many times have you had someone ask you to "walk" them through a dungeon they're five levels too low to cope with and you're twenty levels too high to find challenging? Just so they can reach Endgame fast by skipping as much of the game so they can finally play with the big boys. For me, it's like skipping University and jumping straight into a physicist's gig. I mean, sure, the pay might be nice. But think of all the drinking and messing about with the opposite sex you missed out on.
And what do you do at Endgame?
You do a few dungeons. A few raids. Stand around in the town a lot. Sneer at players whose skill tree isn't identical to yours - which you found on a website telling you it was the most leet thing ever today.
I always feel sad when I reach Endgame. Like someone's just given me a gold medal but cut off my legs at the same time. Sure, those final dungeons might be kind of neat. Once. But after that, you can usually play them blindfolded. There's no thrill. Nothing of the excitement you've been facing for the previous levels. There's nothing to striver FOR other than, well, maybe a new shoulderpiece. Or shiny dagger of doom.
And when you've gotten that?
What do you do?
I think what I'm saying is that the whole Endgame ritual we've gotten used to has a flaw. Prior to Endgame, we're running and going someplace. At Endgame, we're running and going no place. We're doing the same raid over and over and over and over. Playing the same game of chess against a computer which plays the same moves every game.
All MMOs are looking at Endgame, but most are focussing on slapping on a Raid with bigger numbers to the boss' damage output and health and pretty much wiping their hands of the whole thing. Isn't this what's making us feel stagnant? Making us search from game to game. Though we all hate the crawling grind toward Endgame, and we feel that initial thrill of reaching the top of the mountain, when we're there we look around and realise that the top of this mountain looks just like the last one we climbed.
I know many of us mock WOW. I do, too, these days. But I have never forgotten the first time I encountered the pyramid of Zul'Farrak. The moment all those trolls started gathering at the bottom... And when they started rushing. Well, I can't remember the last time I made noises like I did during that fight (don't tell my wife). It was chaos. Mayhem. The closest WOW ever got to being unpredictable. But the second, and third time... Meh. You knew what was going to happen.
Having said all that, I'm looking forward to the next generation of MMO's. Is anyone else as excited as me with the concept of Dynamic Events? The opportunities there are simply endless. And with GW2 taking those DEs into their dungeons, this opens up more opportunities. I was wondering if I'm alone, though, in wishing for more randomizing of content? Who really is happy to "know" the fight? Who prefers the scripted Endgame?
Comments
Endgame is when I no longer have to work on levels, and dont have to keep changing my interface, but can work on items.
Personally I prefer working on items and working with a fixed set of skills where I can learn how to use it optimally.
Endgame for me is an utopia, something I never reach, I keep doing other stuff in every mmo I play.
But everything must come to and end, I never reached endgame I can always play a little more but at same time, when I stop playing, I never reached endgame, I never experienced it.
"End Game" for me is when I rage quit. =P
for me endagme is chalenging content to solo and group all the time,as long as i have something to do and its chalenging(as long as i like it that is...since i dont like PVP i dont care much about end game pvp)
Endgame to me....is something that shouldn't exist in MMO's. Only in console gaming...where it belongs.
for me is just stuff you do when you reach max level.
now: GW2 (11 80s).
Dark Souls 2.
future: Mount&Blade 2 BannerLord.
"Bro, do your even fractal?"
Recommends: Guild Wars 2, Dark Souls, Mount&Blade: Warband, Kingdoms of Amalur: Reckoning.
Endgame for me is when I got as many XP (and if there is AA them as well) as I can get and have to start grinding for gear.
The problem really is that endgame used to be a point where people who done the game for a long time ended up so they would have a little something to do when they wait for the next expansion. Now you reach it in a few weeks and even the most casual gamers will get there in a few months.
Endgame currently is too weak to handle how fast it takes to get there, I think that is the reason so many people bungee quits MMOs today.
Either the devs need to add a lot more things to do in the endgame or they need to make it longer to reach it. Sure, casual players complained before because most casual players never could reach the endgame at all before, there was always a new expansion before thy got so far. But the devs with Blizzard in front then made it so easy to reach it that the worst and most casual players would without any problem.
So the alternative to adding a lot of more things besides raiding, dailys, a few dungeons and some battlegorunds is changing it so it takes regular players 2-3 months to reach it instead of 1-2 weeks and casual players a year or 1 1/2.
The problem is that what you describe really isn't a RPG. If you think about it progression through gear is more of a FPS thing.
Not that it is anything wrong with that but maybe it is time to really split up the genre and having some games with only gear progression and some that is focused on character development instead where your character always can get a little better.
Right now they are trying to do both and I am not so sure that it works that great, the compromize turn away people who prefer one way or another.
Most games progression could be compared to climbing a ladder, but what most experienced players are really looking for is an elaborate jungle gymn. Sure when you reach the top, you've gone "up" as high as a ladder, but theres all sorts of sideways things to explore, or climbing over and down the other side, or through the tube, or down the slide. I don't have a problem with endgame, per se, but would much rather climb around on the scaffolding.
Warhammer fanatic since '85.
As I said, those are just 2 different ways depending on what people prefer.
Most experienced players however usually are complaining how fast you hit endgame in MMOs, at kleast the ones I know. Most really experienced players are vets from games like EQ, AC and M59. Well there are UO fans as well, but they are wanting a third thing.
MMOs should split up into games with ladderclimbing and games without it altogether.
Making 90% of the game a tutorial is a waste of resources no matter who of those types youre making the game for.
I didnt said I would want to do any of this if I'm not getting a good story told as well.
Killing one mob after the other just for the drops is extremely boring. I avoid such grinds.
The problem with Themepark games like WoW is they are so linear, and each new expanision is exactly the same, simply reskinned. I hate the direction new games are going in. I can't stand newer MMO's. All I can stand to play now is Minecraft and English Priston Tale. Both with old school graphics, one sandbox, and one nostaligic MMO.
Both games do not have endgame content, you progress as you see fit, and you can do whatever you want. Less so in Priston Tale, but you get the point. It's all about having features. Things to do other than leveling and PvP.
in my believe getting to end game shouldn't be your priority but the experience getting there that should. once you reach end cap you should have the knowlegde to give back to others the experience u felt getting to the goal.
PS: (yes, im studying philosphy while my major is computer programming)
This.
If game is a themepark / has linear storyline and/or progression. Make it LAST noticeable while.
Nowadays when you hit level cap so fast, this whole content that is not for max. level character is wasted.
Rift - intermediate people hit level there in two weeks. Casuals 1-2 months. Power levellers in few days.
Come on? Ridiculous. Would be better to just everyone start at max.level and make game only for gear progress.
Fast levelling make many problems. Hard to level with a colleague / friend, cause if you miss one 'play session' he can severely out level you in few hours. Hard to group for anything, be it dungeon or questing in certain area, since people level so fast that unless game is new , you won't have enough people to find someone relatively fast.
Another thing is game creators know this, so they make solo content almost exclusively since they know that will be hard to group cause of level speed. Sometimes there are few group quests when game releases but then they are 'soloized' quickly since after initial rush there won't be crowds there = have to wait a long time to find someone to group.
So noone bother, people then just treat 'journey' as a chore that need to be done fast to get to max.level. So they race through it.
Another thing is soloing, while it is ok thing to do (not everyone have to group if they don't want to), is FASTEST.
Looking for people for group quests, takes time, rewards are same as for solo quests and / or are very slightly better so all this time and effort to group "don't pay off".
Since society nowadays is focused on 'effeficency' no wonder that those quests are avoided, that just strenghten devs to not develop group content during leveling at all. Apart of course for some instanced dungeons, especially that there are people that level just by redoing those instances over and over.
One more thing is that open world / journey content is made laughably easy. Really nowadays you have to WANT to die, to actually die. Or be VERY reckless.
Almost all 'big' games since WoW, had alot of initial customers, but flopped after 1-3 months, when people plowed through levelling content fast, made instances at end game, and then many of them left. In some cases amount of people leaving was very severe resulting in mass closure / mergers of servers.
Lotro back in it's P2P times was relatively exceptional, but well it never was 'huge' game, aspiring to 'combat' WoW. Back in the day it had alot of ME fans to support it as well.
Rift is another relative exception, it propably had lost some subscribers, but it was not as severe as earlier titles. It is game made for raider / duneon mashers crowd. While Trion does great job quality wise and amount of update wise. I don't see it gaining much bigger popularity than atm, unless some breakthrough x-pac will be released.
So 2 games that did not flopped. Why? Apart of having relatively high level of polish, which like some bad releases showed is essential for good reception and success, both of them are (or were in case of Lotro) aimed at certain 'niches'.
Lotro for people looking for good story, fans of ME, relaxed almost family value entertaiment. For first year Lotro had relatively small amount of instances, grouping was needed, game promoted it's Epic Questline and Lotro lore. That changed dramatically later on with expansion, but nvm for this discussion.
Rift - very fast(fastest atm?) levelling, clearly well made in many ways for people that enjoy instances of all kinds. Also certain 'niche' was targetted and it is doing fine. Compared to other 'big' titles that flopped hard.
Mmorpg crowd is getting bigger and bigger. Will be imho harder and harder to make a game that will be appealing for majority of players for long. I don't think we'll see game that will replace WoW on position of 'elephant amongst rabbits'.
Certainly there will be games that will have bigger playerbase than others. Swtor and GW2 propably will have quite big playerbases, I very much doubt that they will repeat WoW like success with 12 mil of subscribers.
Think rather ~`1 mil for western audience long-term each (after initial rush for first months).
Game studios want as big possible audience as they can. Understandable but imho there is a growing 'rift', between gamers expectations and some things just cannot be fit in one game. Until developers will understand that, and they start target bigger or lesser 'niches' with more profiled games, mmorpg's will lose 50-90% of their initial players after few months.
Endgame to me is an MMORPG that I wouldn't play. Which is alot of them out there.
"I have only two out of my company and 20 out of some other company. We need support, but it is almost suicide to try to get it here as we are swept by machine gun fire and a constant barrage is on us. I have no one on my left and only a few on my right. I will hold." (First Lieutenant Clifton B. Cates, US Marine Corps, Soissons, 19 July 1918)
Yep when i hear people talk about end game ,it tells me the REAL game is garbage.End game is nothing more than a new gimmick term used by gamers,like mana burns,book burns,tp burns,Raiding ect ect,all nonsense to me.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
End-game is a design and play philosophy flaw.
It is the result of a design that really says, your next goal is to achieve the next level. At which point, they have to come up with stuff for you to do once you reach that ultimate level. Its a weak cop-out that focuses on the "easy to program" goal.
For an MMO, an end game should never really happen. All that should happen is that eventually your toon stops getting "physically" better. You shouldn't really be attempting to reach it, it should simply come naturally.
To give you one MMO perspective, Guild wars. You reach max level way before you get done with the game. This doesn't mean your play style shifts.
To give you one from a single player perspective, take Final Fantasy Games (6 forward). There's little focus on trying to "ding", though you might occasionally stop and do so) most of the time, you simply get stronger as you play the game.
Same with Mass Effect. You aren't trying to reach the next level, you simply continue to play, and advance as you go.
MMO's should do the same thing. Leveling and advancing should be BACKGROUND issues, not focuses. This means programming in goals and possibilities that continue to happen regardless of what your level is. You should be able to hit max level and not even notice that you did so.
So long, and thanks for all the fish!
Im a PVPer so the endgame for me is just the beginning. My definition? When I am done developing my character and do nothing but PVP.
The main game that I play does not have an endgame really . ... in Darkfall you will never PVP only because it is full-loot and its so competitive and a game of world domination so that there are always ways to improve your character. There is usually several ways to reach an objective and you never get stuck on having to do the same thing over and over again unless you choose to.
Guildwars 2 PVE looks quite boring to me. In the videos that I saw the player is 90% of the time mashing one button during combat . ... and I don't think that they can achieve dynamic questing the same way that a sandbox game can and hopefully will. I am looking forward to play the PVP though.
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My favorite thing to do at end game.. depending on the game of course.. But I usually spend alot of time helping lower lvled friends / guildmates, building a strong sense of community in our guild..
But honestly I LOVE raiding and grinding out rep/tokens/whatever thing gets you badass gear.. Its always fun and appealing to me to be an "expert" on later dungeons and instances and teach people the ins and outs of running them succesfully.
Only a few games have really got me hooked on PVP, generally speaking I cant get into it very much.. seeing as most pvp these days consists of jumping and spinning and trying to keep your enemy on screen.. Which is just silly and unappealing to me lol
My ideal endgame is Helping / Raiding / Collecting / PVP in that order..
Pretty much the same with me, when I was active in WoW for example I would plan out time for the guild to do activities and get as many people involved as I could. We would do old raid content or pvp together in a way that allows the most people in the guild to participate regardless of their gear or lvl etc.
When I first started playing I was a hardcore raider and pretty much stayed that way all through BC and then slowed down to start a guild for Wrath. Being able to bring new players and get them educated on heroics and eventually raids was very fun and rewarding to me. I honestly got way more enjoyment from creating a guild and spending time with fellow guild members then I ever did beating my head against a raid boss in a raid guild.
In hindsight I think hardcore raiding was more stressful and toxic then my real job was and really I'm shocked I lasted as long as I did without having a heart attack or completely burning out on the game. While I wish there were other things developers could come up with besides raiding and pvp to me it is all about just making the best of the game and finding ways of enjoying it with fellow guild members, thats my endgame.
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Endgame was one reason I played Aion for a year and Rift for 2 months. In rift I truly felt I had reached the end after 2 months.
Aion I didnt focus on levelling - cause it took so long anyway, rather enjoyed the open world PvP over 6 months until I eventually hit level 50.
But once 50 you have no where near the gear you need for full on pvp or elite pve so it took another 6 months until I finally had a true master assassin. And hell I had to *cough* buy a lot of kinah to get there too :-)
You could legitamately play Aion for years and not reach true end game. I shudder to know what Lineage was like.
I just how SWTOR has something worth progressing for that keeps players playing one they reach the top level. And as others have eluded to I hope there is more creativity with other things to do with endgame - the holy grail sandbox people speak of.
Failing that just make really pretty clothes to keep the girls interested :-)
Endgame is what happens 2, to 3, weeks after release, when I realize it's yet again the same old crap with a fresh coat of paint, and forget to ever log in again.
It's that part of the game where developers have exhausted content and are unable or unwilling to create dynamic content, so they make everything a hamster wheel gear grind to keep you paying and most people fall for it.
Endgame means the game is over?
Tell that to the players constantly playing endgame.
Endgame is game. It's journey. It's not the end.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
I know a guy who filled all of his char slots with alts, and deleted them when they capped out.
For him, that was "endgame", repeating the leveling content over and over and over. Not anything I'd want to do, but he was happy playing that way.
I know a guild full of guys that played for the top of the progression chart, and got their "fun" from competing with other guilds.
I know a guy trying to wrack up the most "kills" in the server's history.
I know some roleplayers that never even think about "endgame"--it's all endgame.
I know mechants trying to monopolize the server's economy, and crafters searching for that one last elusive recipe (completists, collectors, and explorers of all varieties).
I submit that boredom at endgame is either a result of burnout or a simple lack of imagination (as far as creating your own goals). Can't prove it, but that's my gut feeling.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.