Once again you have not provided any reliable evidence. You stated someone said something and then can't provide a reference. You state you have this gifted SRI score, than can't provide a reference. Sorry you saying it is not evidence.
Than you quote wiki which in any academic circle is not a reliable source of information specifically because it can be changed (seriously everyone who has done any research knows this.).
So your claims aren't valid. There is no more argument, you haven't submitted anything valid.
Words have meanings, the word was chosen because it has a meaning.
Venge
edit - and in my country we have two official languages English and French. The french word for persistence is persistANCE. We commonly spell many words both ways.
And if your main reason for not taking me seriously is because I don't spell it the english way, than you are lost. Spelling is one of the last resorts for an argument, right up there with attacking the person... oh wait you've done that too. You have no argument.
I know what the french word for persistence is. But you said you looked it up in the dictionary. Normally spelling isn't a factor but you were quoting a dictionary at me. There is no reference for SRI scores or even proving say my 800 on the SAT in reading and my 36 on the ACT. Its not like there is a public website that stores this data. I could upload a digital photo of it but if you thought I was lying you could just say photoshop. The "academic" circles for the discussions of the video game genres are pretty much raph and bartle and garriot. Its not like you have 100 years of academic tradition. Wikipedia is considered to be about 99% accurate and is in fact more accurate than say, the encyclopedia britannica. Further, this is not a peer reviewed paper I am writing so your complaint about wiki doesn't hold up anyways.
You do understand that wiki cites references and that you can look them up don't you? Are you that incompetent? Honestly your arguments get more and more ridiculous. MUDs were the first persistent worlds and they involved permanent changes to the world. UO which was made by Garriot and Koster also had persistent world changes.
Yes did quote the dictionary however there is more than one spelling of it and I used both.
Fair enough for the SRI but once again if you can't provide a reference, there is no point in mentioning it becuase we have no reason to believe you.
Raph and Bartle are considered experts absolutely, but they are not the only experts, for you to think that is just silly.
I don't need 100 years of tradition, what I do need is to be able to recognize a valid source and I can.
Wikipedia is not considered to be 99% accurate - this is not even a debate. It is not accepted as a valid source of information in academic circles simple because it can so easily be changed - again not a debate. The day may come when it is, but it is not there yet. Yes they do cite references, which makes wikipedia a very good start to research - find out the common thinking than branch out from there.
And in the wiki definition of persistance it quotes several people Deal, David (2007), ^ Marcellino, Bill and ^James, Daniel (Ed.); Gordon Walton . Not Raph or bartle, yes bartle is quoted elsewhere but you stated this is what raph and bartle, the apparently only experts in the field said but once again don't provide a reference. Please provide this reference. I'm not saying they didn't, I'm saying we have no reason to believe. Just provide the reference.
So once again, you have provided any evidence, other than your word. No one stated muds and UO were not persistant or that you couldn't change them. I'm stating the word persistance has a specific defnition and it has only to do with length or time remaining the same. You have not provided an any evidence of any kind and are once again just attacking the presenter. You have no argument.
You keep trying to use the dictionary definition free of context. I already said that if you totally ignore context the dictionary definition of persistence is as you said. Also persistence does not have two spellings. The english spelling is with an E. Type it into google and you will see. Even the merriam webster dictionary displays only the E spelling.
When the term peristent world was coined the games that it described were the way I am defining a persistent world. They didn't use a different word because the WoW style of gameplay didn't exist so making the distinction between those games and the model at the time never came up.
I am bored with this argument. I will refer to what I previously refered to as persistent worlds as virtual worlds because its easier to find documentation of that description as involving actual changes to the world of the kind that don't really exist in WoW and SWTOR.
Happy? Argument solved.
And I say you are wrong. The dictionary defintion was used because it has a meaning. That meaning is the same in MMO's.
And again persistence does have two spellings, probably more, at least a french and english and in this country which has two official languages many words are swapped back and forth, persistance (see the change) is one of them. Color, colour is another. as is aging and ageing, esthetics and aesthetics, pediatric and paediatric, amortise and amortize... do you get it yet.
Please privide some evidence whosing that when the term was coined it meant what you say - you haven't done that, wiki does not agree with you.
If it is easier to find the documentation than please provide it. Until then the dictionary defnition fits with what I feel most people view persistance in MMO's as.
You stated EQ is persistant, and yet EQ does not have any way to affect your character when you log off. It strictly involves the world existing.
I was never unhappy. I just argue stupidity.
You can change the world of EQ because the sleeper event is a one time factor. I said it had some persistent factors. Dude, persistence the english word has one spelling. using the french word is speaking french. and no one in america spells things with the u or the s like in british english. merriam webster which you quoted is an american english dictionary and it only lists the proper american spelling. I know what you are trying to say, you are just wrong.
Wiki definition easily is capable of supporting my side of the argument.
I am not going to scour the internet for any reference to something I heard Raph say ages ago or Bartle either. Its a waste of my time because you will still find grounds to disagree with me. You can look it up for yourself or remain ignorant, you will be wrong either way.
You can change the world of EQ because the sleeper event is a one time factor. I said it had some persistent factors.
To be fair killing the sleeper only changed the actual Sleeper's Tomb zone. For instance before he was killed the NPCs in Skyshrine blabbed about how he is awakened and how will he be stopped, and after he was killed they still blabbed the same thing (i filled out a few bug reports on broken npc dialog for that :P )
But seriously there are many other aspects in the game that do persist when you are offline that affect your character. For instance npc's actually have inventory and keep items that players sold to them and will sell them back to other players (ie actual merchants!!!)
If someone picks up that 12 hour ground spawn item when you are offline it makes it so you can't pick it up when you are logged in.
Being able to actually drop items on the ground, etc.
EQ was truely a world to live in in that point (especially on the PvP servers)
Overinstancing killed persistant worlds.. There isn't any glory in downing the big bad guy if its the 20th time hes been downed on your server that day..
Once again you have not provided any reliable evidence. You stated someone said something and then can't provide a reference. You state you have this gifted SRI score, than can't provide a reference. Sorry you saying it is not evidence.
Than you quote wiki which in any academic circle is not a reliable source of information specifically because it can be changed (seriously everyone who has done any research knows this.).
So your claims aren't valid. There is no more argument, you haven't submitted anything valid.
Words have meanings, the word was chosen because it has a meaning.
Venge
edit - and in my country we have two official languages English and French. The french word for persistence is persistANCE. We commonly spell many words both ways.
And if your main reason for not taking me seriously is because I don't spell it the english way, than you are lost. Spelling is one of the last resorts for an argument, right up there with attacking the person... oh wait you've done that too. You have no argument.
Oh jeeze, you should see what the Brits do to the English language.
Once again you have not provided any reliable evidence. You stated someone said something and then can't provide a reference. You state you have this gifted SRI score, than can't provide a reference. Sorry you saying it is not evidence.
Than you quote wiki which in any academic circle is not a reliable source of information specifically because it can be changed (seriously everyone who has done any research knows this.).
So your claims aren't valid. There is no more argument, you haven't submitted anything valid.
Words have meanings, the word was chosen because it has a meaning.
Venge
edit - and in my country we have two official languages English and French. The french word for persistence is persistANCE. We commonly spell many words both ways.
And if your main reason for not taking me seriously is because I don't spell it the english way, than you are lost. Spelling is one of the last resorts for an argument, right up there with attacking the person... oh wait you've done that too. You have no argument.
Oh jeeze, you should see what the Brits do to the English language.
Haha I hear you. Here in the great white north we get inundated with all three N.A. English, French and British English, flipping back and forth between everything.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
Once again you have not provided any reliable evidence. You stated someone said something and then can't provide a reference. You state you have this gifted SRI score, than can't provide a reference. Sorry you saying it is not evidence.
Than you quote wiki which in any academic circle is not a reliable source of information specifically because it can be changed (seriously everyone who has done any research knows this.).
So your claims aren't valid. There is no more argument, you haven't submitted anything valid.
Words have meanings, the word was chosen because it has a meaning.
Venge
edit - and in my country we have two official languages English and French. The french word for persistence is persistANCE. We commonly spell many words both ways.
And if your main reason for not taking me seriously is because I don't spell it the english way, than you are lost. Spelling is one of the last resorts for an argument, right up there with attacking the person... oh wait you've done that too. You have no argument.
Actually wikis are considered to be quite accurate. A study by nature conducted in 2005 had shown that wikipedia's accuracy was comparable to Britannicas. http://news.cnet.com/2100-1038_3-5997332.html.
There are even more sources but I'm sure you get the picture
As a graduate of an ivy-league level school, I can agree that wikipedia is not considered an academic source of information; however, academia and schools are notoriously old fashioned and slow to adopt newer technology. In fact, they admit it themselves.
Plus that study was done way back in 2005 when Wikipedia was a baby - now, Wikipedia is probably even more accurate than Britannica.
Most wikis nowadays have consensus based information which is decided upon by a group of highly involved individuals.
And we're not in the classroom here, Venge. Lighten up.
I don't see anything wrong with what the OP is saying. I do believe the DLC and microtransactions really mostly came about initially due to the players spending more in RMT illegally than they did on the game and the game companies not having a good enough way to combat that. Plus it showed them where a bunch more money was.
I moved to MMOs from FPS games due to the cheats like aimbots etc that were prevalent in the FPS games. Was all into the FPS clans and ladders.
Now neither are worth much and I really just can't get invested in gaming anymore, and have moved on to other things in life. Occasionally now I play a small amount and usually on private servers. The industry will have to pull something a lot better out and make it worth my while. I wish they would but don't see it happening anytime soon.
I fully agree with the OP, and I choose mmo's according to the way they sell things and how they manage sub. But it's really hard nowadays to find one AAA mmo without this kind of nasty practices. And more recently you have to buy access to VIP lounges for special items (SWTOR for instance).
Once again you have not provided any reliable evidence. You stated someone said something and then can't provide a reference. You state you have this gifted SRI score, than can't provide a reference. Sorry you saying it is not evidence.
Than you quote wiki which in any academic circle is not a reliable source of information specifically because it can be changed (seriously everyone who has done any research knows this.).
So your claims aren't valid. There is no more argument, you haven't submitted anything valid.
Words have meanings, the word was chosen because it has a meaning.
Venge
edit - and in my country we have two official languages English and French. The french word for persistence is persistANCE. We commonly spell many words both ways.
And if your main reason for not taking me seriously is because I don't spell it the english way, than you are lost. Spelling is one of the last resorts for an argument, right up there with attacking the person... oh wait you've done that too. You have no argument.
Actually wikis are considered to be quite accurate. A study by nature conducted in 2005 had shown that wikipedia's accuracy was comparable to Britannicas. http://news.cnet.com/2100-1038_3-5997332.html.
There are even more sources but I'm sure you get the picture
As a graduate of an ivy-league level school, I can agree that wikipedia is not considered an academic source of information; however, academia and schools are notoriously old fashioned and slow to adopt newer technology. In fact, they admit it themselves.
Plus that study was done way back in 2005 when Wikipedia was a baby - now, Wikipedia is probably even more accurate than Britannica.
Most wikis nowadays have consensus based information which is decided upon by a group of highly involved individuals.
And we're not in the classroom here, Venge. Lighten up.
Well, there you go venge. This guy follows your silly rules with loads of sources and crap. Admit you are wrong now. kkthxbai.
Once again you have not provided any reliable evidence. You stated someone said something and then can't provide a reference. You state you have this gifted SRI score, than can't provide a reference. Sorry you saying it is not evidence.
Than you quote wiki which in any academic circle is not a reliable source of information specifically because it can be changed (seriously everyone who has done any research knows this.).
So your claims aren't valid. There is no more argument, you haven't submitted anything valid.
Words have meanings, the word was chosen because it has a meaning.
Venge
edit - and in my country we have two official languages English and French. The french word for persistence is persistANCE. We commonly spell many words both ways.
And if your main reason for not taking me seriously is because I don't spell it the english way, than you are lost. Spelling is one of the last resorts for an argument, right up there with attacking the person... oh wait you've done that too. You have no argument.
Actually wikis are considered to be quite accurate. A study by nature conducted in 2005 had shown that wikipedia's accuracy was comparable to Britannicas. http://news.cnet.com/2100-1038_3-5997332.html.
There are even more sources but I'm sure you get the picture
As a graduate of an ivy-league level school, I can agree that wikipedia is not considered an academic source of information; however, academia and schools are notoriously old fashioned and slow to adopt newer technology. In fact, they admit it themselves.
Plus that study was done way back in 2005 when Wikipedia was a baby - now, Wikipedia is probably even more accurate than Britannica.
Most wikis nowadays have consensus based information which is decided upon by a group of highly involved individuals.
And we're not in the classroom here, Venge. Lighten up.
Well, there you go venge. This guy follows your silly rules with loads of sources and crap. Admit you are wrong now. kkthxbai.
*rolls eyes*
1. These aren't my rules, they are common debating rules.
2. I said Wiki was not considered a credible source. Yes they do have some accurate information, however even on their site they have large bolded text stating such and such has not been validated.
3. Your wiki link did not support you.
4. You did not cite anything from Koster or Bartle.
So ghost is correct. A lot of Wiki is accurate, he also stated it was not considered credible in academic circles. Yes it is in part due to academia being slow, but it is also due to the way the information is collected and displayed - again big bold text saying this has not been verified.
So once again you didn't cite anything that agrees with you and you haven't showed anything from koster or bartle showing they agree with you. All there is you blowing hot air.
Persistent: A virtual world cannot be paused. It continues to exist and function after the
participant has left. Persistence separates virtual worlds from video games such as
Pac-Man or Galaga. This persistence changes the way people interact with other participants and the
environment. No longer is one participant the center of the world but a member of a dynamic
community and evolving economy. A participant has a sense the systems in the space
(environment, ecology, economy) exist with or without a participant’s presence.
http://www.raphkoster.com/gaming/book/3c.shtml "The definition offered is not intended to completely pin down what a persistent world, MMORPG, or mud is going to be." So Koster himself doesn't offer a specific definition of persistance.
"The key thread here is that these are session-based games. All that is required for a game to cease being session-based and become a true persistent world is persistence of characters. Note that persistence of the “second layer” (objects that are not characters) is not in fact required; "
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
Comments
You can change the world of EQ because the sleeper event is a one time factor. I said it had some persistent factors. Dude, persistence the english word has one spelling. using the french word is speaking french. and no one in america spells things with the u or the s like in british english. merriam webster which you quoted is an american english dictionary and it only lists the proper american spelling. I know what you are trying to say, you are just wrong.
Wiki definition easily is capable of supporting my side of the argument.
I am not going to scour the internet for any reference to something I heard Raph say ages ago or Bartle either. Its a waste of my time because you will still find grounds to disagree with me. You can look it up for yourself or remain ignorant, you will be wrong either way.
I did in fact look it up, and I said that I did. You just can;t read apparently.
Boring. We will be discussing the fact that ice is clear.
To be fair killing the sleeper only changed the actual Sleeper's Tomb zone. For instance before he was killed the NPCs in Skyshrine blabbed about how he is awakened and how will he be stopped, and after he was killed they still blabbed the same thing (i filled out a few bug reports on broken npc dialog for that :P )
But seriously there are many other aspects in the game that do persist when you are offline that affect your character. For instance npc's actually have inventory and keep items that players sold to them and will sell them back to other players (ie actual merchants!!!)
If someone picks up that 12 hour ground spawn item when you are offline it makes it so you can't pick it up when you are logged in.
Being able to actually drop items on the ground, etc.
EQ was truely a world to live in in that point (especially on the PvP servers)
Overinstancing killed persistant worlds.. There isn't any glory in downing the big bad guy if its the 20th time hes been downed on your server that day..
Oh jeeze, you should see what the Brits do to the English language.
Once upon a time....
Haha I hear you. Here in the great white north we get inundated with all three N.A. English, French and British English, flipping back and forth between everything.
Actually wikis are considered to be quite accurate. A study by nature conducted in 2005 had shown that wikipedia's accuracy was comparable to Britannicas. http://news.cnet.com/2100-1038_3-5997332.html.
A study done at MIT found that in 2003, inaccurate changes done to Wikipedia were cleaned up very quickly, so quickly that you might not even see the effects.http://alumni.media.mit.edu/~fviegas/papers/history_flow.pdf
There are even more sources but I'm sure you get the picture
As a graduate of an ivy-league level school, I can agree that wikipedia is not considered an academic source of information; however, academia and schools are notoriously old fashioned and slow to adopt newer technology. In fact, they admit it themselves.
Plus that study was done way back in 2005 when Wikipedia was a baby - now, Wikipedia is probably even more accurate than Britannica.
Most wikis nowadays have consensus based information which is decided upon by a group of highly involved individuals.
And we're not in the classroom here, Venge. Lighten up.
I don't see anything wrong with what the OP is saying. I do believe the DLC and microtransactions really mostly came about initially due to the players spending more in RMT illegally than they did on the game and the game companies not having a good enough way to combat that. Plus it showed them where a bunch more money was.
I moved to MMOs from FPS games due to the cheats like aimbots etc that were prevalent in the FPS games. Was all into the FPS clans and ladders.
Now neither are worth much and I really just can't get invested in gaming anymore, and have moved on to other things in life. Occasionally now I play a small amount and usually on private servers. The industry will have to pull something a lot better out and make it worth my while. I wish they would but don't see it happening anytime soon.
I fully agree with the OP, and I choose mmo's according to the way they sell things and how they manage sub. But it's really hard nowadays to find one AAA mmo without this kind of nasty practices. And more recently you have to buy access to VIP lounges for special items (SWTOR for instance).
Not every MMO is a cash shop, although it is a growing trend.
Well, there you go venge. This guy follows your silly rules with loads of sources and crap. Admit you are wrong now. kkthxbai.
*rolls eyes*
1. These aren't my rules, they are common debating rules.
2. I said Wiki was not considered a credible source. Yes they do have some accurate information, however even on their site they have large bolded text stating such and such has not been validated.
3. Your wiki link did not support you.
4. You did not cite anything from Koster or Bartle.
So ghost is correct. A lot of Wiki is accurate, he also stated it was not considered credible in academic circles. Yes it is in part due to academia being slow, but it is also due to the way the information is collected and displayed - again big bold text saying this has not been verified.
So once again you didn't cite anything that agrees with you and you haven't showed anything from koster or bartle showing they agree with you. All there is you blowing hot air.
So once again, your wrong.
edit - journals.tdl.org/jvwr/article/download/283/237Similar
Persistent: A virtual world cannot be paused. It continues to exist and function after the
participant has left. Persistence separates virtual worlds from video games such as
Pac-Man or Galaga. This persistence changes the way people interact with other participants and the
environment. No longer is one participant the center of the world but a member of a dynamic
community and evolving economy. A participant has a sense the systems in the space
(environment, ecology, economy) exist with or without a participant’s presence.
http://www.raphkoster.com/gaming/book/3c.shtml "The definition offered is not intended to completely pin down what a persistent world, MMORPG, or mud is going to be." So Koster himself doesn't offer a specific definition of persistance.
http://www.raphkoster.com/gaming/book/6.shtml - here he does offer a defintion and lo and behold changing the environment is not required.
"The key thread here is that these are session-based games. All that is required for a game to cease being session-based and become a true persistent world is persistence of characters. Note that persistence of the “second layer” (objects that are not characters) is not in fact required; "