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Why PvP players and focus had destroyed MMORPG gaming!

PainlezzPainlezz Laguna Hills, CAPosts: 616Member Uncommon

In an effort to avoid a wall of text I’ll try to keep this short and sweet.


 


PvP has destroyed the MMORPG gaming experience for all of us.  The idea that a “Wizard” with huge fireballs and freezing ice spells should be a balanced fight vs a dude with a sword and shield is stupid.  The idea that a class with a unique spell, making them fun and enjoyable to play in PvE, yet extremely overpowered in PvP, should lose that ability completely is stupid!


Look back at every game that has added PvP and what has become of it.


 


I’m not saying PvP is bad or should be removed from games.  I fully enjoy PvP…  In counter strike, in league of legends, in Heroes of Newerth… 


 


MMORPG should never have balanced PvP.  MASSIVE does not mean 5v5 or even less.  Game balance should be on battlegrounds and huge fights.  Never 1v1 or 2v2 encounters.


 


If a player has a huge fiery death spell that explodes another player in 1 shot, who cares?  If they happen to one-shot 1 player in a 100v100 battle once every 10 min that means NOTHING in the grand scheme of things.


 


We can’t have interesting PvE content (or even PvP content) if every class is balanced to be 1v1 capable.  At that point everyone ends up being the same with tools to combat everyone else.   

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Comments

  • KuppaKuppa Boulder, COPosts: 3,292Member Uncommon

    cry me a river....there is no reason why pvp should NOT be part of an MMO. It's fun, you even know that. The same can be said about RPing and PvE.....its a matter of taste but to generalize like you are doing is just wrong.

    image


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  • CeridithCeridith Toronto, ONPosts: 2,980Member

    It's more than just a class balancing issue. PvP in general is contrary to the entire point of RPGs.

    More specifically rather, balanced PvP conflicts with progression. Balanced PvP means everyone has to be equal or otherwise very close to it through a rock-paper-scissors setup. RPGs however, are based around character progressio. You level up, obtain gear, learn new abilities, etc. Well, progression runs contrary to PvP balance because it inherently unbalances the scales when you can have people at different levels of progression compete against each other.

    That said, I do enjoy PvP, but like the OP, I go to games like TeamFortress 2 and the like where they are build from the ground up and balanced specifically for PvP, and not progression.

  • tormundatormunda WalesPosts: 34Member

    Sooner we get rid of all these stupid Wizards in games the better.

     

  • bunnyhopperbunnyhopper LondonPosts: 2,751Member

    No, pvpers have not destroyed MMORPG gaming. People who think that every single mmorpg should be about balanced "e-sports" all the time though have had an impact.

     

    But then I would argue that the whole 1 v 1 thing is driven by the solo player aspect of the market, more so than the pvpers per say.

     

    "Come and have a look at what you could have won."

  • possessed1possessed1 Strongsville, OHPosts: 36Member

    I have to agree somewhat with OP, that PVP has ruined a lot of games for me, maybe not the rest of the populace. I'm a casual MMO'er and when I slowl work a toon up to mid level, then come back to the game and find him utterly unplayable due to changes to balance PVP from latest patch, I tend to get PO'd. I'm not a PVP'er but I understand there is an audience for it. This suggestion has been brought up before, but I really wish they would implement a set of 'rules', 'powers' , 'whatever' that are set for PVE and then for PVP have different set/effects. OP does have a good point that a fire-wielding mage vs an armored knight really isn't a contest, in the realm of an MMO. For a PnP game, the knight may win, because of player ingenuity and discussion with a real life thinking GM. There may be environmental factors, quick thinking on a person's part, doing something unconvential or 'tricky' to outwit the wizard, etc. etc.  Won't happen in MMO -- you have set parameters that you must follow.

  • vanderghastvanderghast cresco, IAPosts: 222Member Uncommon

    PVP only really exists in MMO's because it's easy to develop content.  Make an arena and let players fight, done!

     

    I also tend to agree that it has no place at all in MMO's.  These are supposed to be roleplaying games with story and character progression, not an epeen waving contest.  I've enjoyed PVP in some games but it causes class balance to shift so drastically and causes so many other problems that in most cases it's not worth it.  But again, it's easy content so it goes in and probably isn't going away.

     

    The main reason i quit wow was due to the constant class balance changes that were prompted by PVP.  It got so tiring not knowing one week if your class was going to be nerfed into oblivion or the FOTM.  Just gets old after awhile riding that see saw.  I wouldn't have a problem with it if there was a method for them that once you entered a battleground it adjusted your spells on the fly to work differently against players than AI.  if a spell was overpowered in PVP but ok in PVE have it automatically toned down just in BG's to avoid balance issues but instead it just gets nerfed or removed all around and your left with nothing but a bunch of generic abilities that dont due anything fun due to possible griefing or overpoweredness in pvp.

  • VinterkrigVinterkrig BOSTON, MAPosts: 1,672Member

    {mod edit}

    pvp has its place in MMOs, and it is one of the reasons most games retain subscribers

    or we could say

    I think the fact that "epic" bosses respawn and drop all kinds of random items that have nothing to do with said boss destroyed mmos, or that thousands upon thousands of people run the same quest doing the same thing for the life of the game has ruined mmos... such a silly comment to throw out there because you wanna frolick with a virtual pet through a wonderland of war as long as the war is only brought to you by stupid AI

  • MardukkMardukk Posts: 1,556Member Uncommon

    I agree that it is not the PvPer's fault that stupid game companies have not separated PvE and PvP.  In an effort to "balance" everything the classes have become quite similiar and boring.  Any interesting PvE abilities are destroyed in the name of PvP balance. 

     

    Another item I feel is hurting the PvE MMO experience is the PvP rush to hit the lvl cap so they can be competitive in PvP.  All of the PvP'ers cry if they don't reach lvl cap in a week, and for good reason, as they want to participate in the part of the game that matters to them.  Luckly some of the upcoming games are fixing this lvling and PvP issue by making evenyone the same lvl when they enter some instanced PvP. 

  • deniterdeniter LappeenrantaPosts: 804Member Uncommon

    PvP should always be a part of MMORPG, but things like instanced battlegrounds, arenas, PvP gear, etc.. should go. Lets keep the focus on adventuring and exploring the world.

    I want my +5 sword of asskicking from a pile of treasure guarded by a dragon we just managed to kill rather than a goblin in a tuxedo who's obsessed with badges and trinkets and gives stuff away for a handful of them.

  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Arkham, VAPosts: 10,910Member

    I guess I'm going to voice the dissenting opinion here. I don't think MMOs have been 'destroyed' anymore than I think the PvP in the games has contributed to any sort of decline in the games. Kind of the opposite actually.

    Games with PvE content and PvP content provide the most bang for the buck. In games that don't provide good value, it's not the PvP (or the PvE) that broke the game, it's the developers' poor implementation that broke the game.

    If you're going to blame something for 'destroying' the mmorpg genre, blame lack of funding or the involvement of non-gaming executives in the games' development.

    ** edit **
    grammrz

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  • RecantRecant Some placePosts: 1,586Member Uncommon
    The OP has a great point. Just a shame that as soon as a developer as naive as him puts this into practice, everyone will play a wizard. Or you will have groups of wizards going around 1 shooting content and/or players. Human nature.

    Still waiting for your Holy Grail MMORPG? Interesting...

  • RecantRecant Some placePosts: 1,586Member Uncommon
    It's possible for wizards to be powerful without huge fireballs too. WoW mages for example have an incredible arsenal of spells ranging from invulnerability to crowd control.

    Still waiting for your Holy Grail MMORPG? Interesting...

  • kitaradkitarad RomePosts: 1,742Member Uncommon

    Balancing in PvP is what causes most fun stuff to be toned down to cater to another class. It is the truth but what to do if you do not tone the spell down the people roasted by it will whine and leave and then where would the game be.

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  • surstromingsurstroming stockholmPosts: 151Member Common

    I never PvP because I always PvE in mmorpgs,

    its too hard to maintain aggro in PvP

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,643Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by tormunda

    Sooner we get rid of all these stupid Wizards in games the better.

     

    QFT.

    I remember hanging out at the point south of Trinsic back in the 90's, merrily smacking away at orcs and lizardmen when Crush of Red Army (RA) showed up and fireballed everyone to death. While he was emoting various forms of sodomy over our corpses one of the other ghosts turned to me and said, "Mages... *shrug* there goes the neighborhood."  I couldn't help but agree.

     

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • nerovipus32nerovipus32 dublinPosts: 2,735Member

    Cry babies, battlegrounds and balancing have destoyed mmo's..pvp has been in mmo's since the begining so you must be new to the genre to make a statement like that.

  • randomtrandomt no thanks, BCPosts: 1,180Member

    No problem with pvp, nor with wizards but.. wizards shouldn't be a dime a dozen.. The kind of fireball wielding demigod the OP refers to should be rare, everyone else should at most fart smoke when they try.

    Unless the game is specifically wizard vs wizard based, I guess, but in most lores, there's usually one powerful wizard and a bunch of ineffective underlings with little or no magic heh

    ----
    What?

  • VengerVenger York, PAPosts: 1,318Member

    "The idea that a “Wizard” with huge fireballs and freezing ice spells should be a balanced fight vs a dude with a sword and shield is stupid."

    Not entirely true.  In pnp d&d I could create a sword and board character that specializes in killing mages, but that same character would be much less effective fighitng against brute strength type mobs.

    I agree with your core idea though.  I think if classes weren't so black and white a rock, sissors, paper design would work much better.  Right now a rogue is a clothy killer, but if that clothy could build there class so that it was a rogue killer pvp wouldn't be so black and white.  With more options per class having imbalance wouldn't be the big of a deal.

  • IcewhiteIcewhite Elmhurst, ILPosts: 6,403Member

    Perhaps the problem isn't a PvP game--but instead a game that tries to do both (PvP and PvE), despite very different objectives, squeezed together into the same "balance".

    PvE players hate getting nerfed because of some perceived PvP imbalance.  PvP players hate being nerfed because of some perceived e-sport imbalance.

    Yet developers (oddly) try to create one set of rules that encompasses all things and all people.  And to a large extent, at the best of times, it doesn't work very well for anyone.

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,643Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Recant

    The OP has a great point. Just a shame that as soon as a developer as naive as him puts this into practice, everyone will play a wizard. Or you will have groups of wizards going around 1 shooting content and/or players. Human nature.

     

    All joking aside, I liked a lot of the aspects of the early UO mages

    - reagents were required for casting

    - spells didn't selectively hurt some and not hurt others

    - spell books needed to be scribed, which meant the spells needed to bought or collected

     

    Sounds really limiting and expensive until you consider that what comes with that is



    • - the ability to teleport or gate people to custom locations all over the map, including the bottom of the deadliest dungeons


    • - a private dungeon only for those with a certain level of magery


    • - the ability to cast Chained Lightning and Meteor Showers, damn near decimating anything in the 3x3 area it hits


    • - poison, paralyze and fire fields to nightmarishly carpet entire areas of the terrain


    • - Blade Spirits that wander, cut and poison every living thing they come in contact with


    • - Earthquakes that knock oeverone on screen on their ass (people feel during a quake prior to the introduction of death anims) and knocking them to half health.

     

    I like the whole Spiderman-esque design of with great power comes great responsibility. :) The system definitely had its flaws and is certainly not for the crowd that feels they shouldn't be responsible for their actions, but it was damn fun and a real challenge to effectly play a high level mage without occasionally offing a few off your guildmates. :)

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • BarCrowBarCrow Tampa, FLPosts: 2,212Member

      I agree from a PnP/fantasy novel/Cinematic point of view. When going against powerful Mages in sprpg games,books and movies it usually always takes a whole party (including lesser mages) and some special "table-turner" like an artifact....i.e. the wizards soul buried in a magical jar under a dragons hoard..then release it to fly back into the evil wizard making him mortal again and vulnerable to a swords point,arrow..or some such shite.

    Unfortunately in most(all?)  mmos..every player has to be "the chosen one" so balanced PVP must be maintained to prevent the  playerbase from drowning in the tears of the offended.

  • Creslin321Creslin321 Baltimore, MDPosts: 5,359Member

    People gripe about balance even in games that are almost all PvE.  The original EQ is such a game, and people would complain that other classes were better or theirs was gimped ALL THE TIME.

    The simple fact of the matter is that if you put a bunch of people in a game they are going to find some way to compete.  Whether it be who can kill MOBs faster, control MOBs better, craft the best items, kill players better, heal the best, etc. etc.  The point is that people will always find SOMETHING to compete over.  It's human nature.

    Do you honestly think that if you make a game with no PvP that people are going to stop whining about balance for a hot second?  If you make a game where wizards are like fantasy novel wizards and can kill 200 enemies with one spell, then how do you think the guy playing a warrior is going to feel?  He'll be on the boards bitching about OP wizards just like he would be in a PvP game.  it seriously doesn't make a difference.

    The only ways to eliminate balance concerns would be to:

    1.  Make every single player exactly the same from start to finish.  But would you really want to play a game with no variety?

    2.  Make a game were players cannot compete in anything whatsoever.  First I don't even know if this is possible, and second it kind of seems like the game would be boring.  What kind of game is there were you literally can't do anything better or worse than another player?  A cutscene watching game?

    Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?

  • Goatgod76Goatgod76 Stow, OHPosts: 1,214Member

    Originally posted by Painlezz




     


    We can’t have interesting PvE content (or even PvP content) if every class is balanced to be 1v1 capable.  At that point everyone ends up being the same with tools to combat everyone else.   

    That line pretty much answers all that blathering. If you can 1 v 1, then you can just as easily do 100 v. 100 and still have a fun and competitive match. And why shouldn't every class have abilities to combat every other class?

     

    Just sounds like your trying to "ninja in" comments of how you want to be able to 1 shot people sometimes to feel special without having to work for it IMO.

  • BarCrowBarCrow Tampa, FLPosts: 2,212Member

    Originally posted by Loktofeit

    Originally posted by Recant

    The OP has a great point. Just a shame that as soon as a developer as naive as him puts this into practice, everyone will play a wizard. Or you will have groups of wizards going around 1 shooting content and/or players. Human nature.

     

    All joking aside, I liked a lot of the aspects of the early UO mages

    - reagents were required for casting

    - spells didn't selectively hurt some and not hurt others

    - spell books needed to be scribed, which meant the spells needed to bought or collected

     

    Sounds really limiting and expensive until you consider that what comes with that is



    • - the ability to teleport or gate people to custom locations all over the map, including the bottom of the deadliest dungeons


    • - a private dungeon only for those with a certain level of magery


    • - the ability to cast Chained Lightning and Meteor Showers, damn near decimating anything in the 3x3 area it hits


    • - poison, paralyze and fire fields to nightmarishly carpet entire areas of the terrain


    • - Blade Spirits that wander, cut and poison every living thing they come in contact with


    • - Earthquakes that knock oeverone on screen on their ass (people feel during a quake prior to the introduction of death anims) and knocking them to half health.

     

    I like the whole Spiderman-esque design of with great power comes great responsibility. :) The system definitely had its flaws and is certainly not for the crowd that feels they shouldn't be responsible for their actions, but it was damn fun and a real challenge to effectly play a high level mage without occasionally offing a few off your guildmates. :)

    Exactly....and just like in PnP (e.g. AD&D)...those mages could be major powers...but take out his/her guardians( faithful friends the thief,fighter and cleric)...e.g Mage doesnt pay attention and fire-nukes his/her party along with some of the enemy. Then that mage may be able to take out the rest of his/her adversaries..but just as likely..that mage can now be flanked and his/her squishy body beaten to a pulp.

    In PnP...at some point here is a period of time where each class is more or less equal..usually around a certain level. Like order of power at the start is usually fighter /cleric/thief /mage.......then this shuffles around as each gains level with the mage coming out on top (usually at the higher levels)..maybe mage/cleric/fighter/thief. With the last 3 classes rotatable depending on how they specialized or allocated points. Old school. Then again...it's been a long time since I've played D&D/AD&D (1st and 2nd edition) so I could have remembered things in error). I know these days WOTC have pretty much holy trinityed everything.

     

  • WolfenprideWolfenpride San''doria, WIPosts: 3,988Member

    I think it's more appropriate to say that the "e-sport" mentality has had it's detrimental effects on the MMO genre for many of us. Not necessarily PvP in itself, as there are one or two good PvP games still trucking along.

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