GW2 wont appeal some players because of this but on the other way it will instead attract the people who are bored of the raiding hamsterwheel.
So yes and no, but I don't think it would get more players for doing the same things as everyone else. Of course it is possible that an average player might stay a month less or 2 then they would have in a traditional game but unlike games with monthly fees is that not an issue here.
The fact that GW2 mainly will live on box sales (including expansions) is what makes it possible for ANET to have a game with less grind and I think that actually will attract many players.
And probably not have seen even half of the world or played through a quarter of the story
They will whine "baaaaaa wheres my better gear baaaaa i wanna be better as i do instances and hardcore pvp i deserve it and and i want raids and LFG tool and pvp balance i'm class X i cant solo kill class Y fix it"
If you want to kill Class A, spec and trait for it, but realise that with the new spec Class Y will be supperior to you. Use tactics and become a better player
(hopefully) GW2 devs wont fall for it and follow their vision
The ADD gamers will leave crying
Which is a huge minority, and most of them will find their new home in WvWvW when they finally realise that PvP can be fun and entertaining.... back in its old days DAoC turned the majorrity of PvE players intoo PvP players.
These boards will be full of "GW2 sux", "There's nothing to do, what, achievements, exploring? They dont GIVE you anything"
That loud minorrity will allways be there, sadly this time they will stay much longer realising that the MMO with the best gameplay is not soothing their lust and addiction for gear and power. While they are not capable enough to show real skill in PvP. If we tell them time after time after time that they are bad players that can only excell through haveing better gear then others they will finally leave like beaten down dogs...
The rest of us will stay
GW2 will become a good game and live for years after years, same as GW
If they can pump out enough high quallity content to keep keep people engaged without to much repetitiveness people will stay for ever, if they can't people will return time after time to enjoy the new content and play another MMO in between.
Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)
They will whine "baaaaaa wheres my better gear baaaaa i wanna be better as i do instances and hardcore pvp i deserve it and and i want raids and LFG tool and pvp balance i'm class X i cant solo kill class Y fix it"
(hopefully) GW2 devs wont fall for it and follow their vision
The ADD gamers will leave crying
These boards will be full of "GW2 sux", "There's nothing to do, what, achievements, exploring? They dont GIVE you anything"
The rest of us will stay
GW2 will become a good game and live for years after years, same as GW
They will be more than 2 weeks. You need to add time for the head scratching while they look for conventional quest npc
If they do the WvWvW right, it will go 75% of the way to keeping me happy...
I am an old hardcore EQ 72 person raid raider....I have sat around with 80ish people for something to spawn for 6-8 hours, I have sat around with 30-50 people to do epic stuff, that has a 2-3 day random timer window, while getting a couple hours of sleep, with people having my number if something spawns while I am getting my 2-4 hours sleep...and having to reclear old EQ planes while you wait....Dying up to 30 times during some raids, due to 1 of the 72 making a mistake, and bringing a 50-70 mob train on the raid....As crazy as it sounds, yeah I enjoy raiding...But I also enjoyed games that had no real/conventional raiding, like UO.
So does GW2 'need' raiding to be a good game, no, not if they provide other things to do. I enjoy choices, I explore, pve, pvp, harvest, craft, do side games (like diplomacy in VG), and some collectable type stuff.
Someone mentioned Rift, I just quit Rift, it had no real depth, or quality options imo. The world was too small. IT is a good game, if you like the direction they are going. I just see how they limited things, or as people refer to as a rail...Made a story line so they only had to have 1 starting area for each side, limited races, etc.... The soul combos/points was nice, they did a lot of good things...I just couldn't get past the limiting design of the world...So I am not bashing them, just wasn't for me...I am hoping that GW2 does it better (like make the 3 'home' areas in WvWvW not the same for every server, even though its easy to say why it would be, thats kind of boring imo).
They will be more than 2 weeks. You need to add time for the head scratching while they look for conventional quest npc
No, the type of player that gets a new game and powerlevel up a character are very driven... They will find a way to max out in a week no matter what, then they will start whine hear and after another week they will leave.
Happens whenever a new game launches. I call them "Bungie players", they jump in and out a game so fast that the rest of us hardly even notice them.
Hopefully they dont make the leveling process too quick. As a pve player primarily I dont expect to play nonstop for years. It appears that pvp will be the true endgame. Nothing wrong with it being a nice 4-6month distraction. Did i see they will have the aa system from eq? Merits? That would surely extend the lifespan of the game for us pvers.
Hopefully they dont make the leveling process too quick. As a pve player primarily I dont expect to play nonstop for years. It appears that pvp will be the true endgame. Nothing wrong with it being a nice 4-6month distraction. Did i see they will have the aa system from eq? Merits? That would surely extend the lifespan of the game for us pvers.
Not like EQs AA system no. But you can collect titles and skills.
Some titles will be rather easy to get while others will take a lot of work. LOL, in the original GW they have a titel if you reach max level without dying a single time and another weird one for maxing out in pre searing Ascalon, you can only get it if you let the mobs level up by killing you and then kill them for XP, it takes a long time...
It's thread like these that make me want ArenaNet to hurry up and release their game already, just to shut up these people who believe that raiding & gear grinding are the only true forms of endgame in the MMORPG genre. Similar to the people who say that Dungeons will be nothing but a zergfest, without the holy trinity, to clearly define the role a player must fulfill.
But alas, I do wish for ArenaNet to release a top quality MMO, that will make a huge splash when it finally releases and I'll enjoy my evenings in The Mist; raiding supply lines and stealth ganking other players with my friends.
What lack of endgame? Lol. I swear, some people will just never get this game; even if beaten over the head with it's design mechanics. This game has just as much, if not more, endgame as all the other MMOs out there. The only thing it doesn't have are your weekly raids, logging in & waiting for everyone to get there; playing for a couple hours, and then logging off because the raid is done and locked. Sounds like a blast...
Again, and this info has been out for months now, you have replayable dungeons, PvP, WvWvW, crafting, upper level dynamic events, underwater content to explore, titles & achievements to gain, armor / weapons to collect, personal storylines to complete. The guild content will also be another thing to spend your time on. Lvling guilds and gaining perks for being in said guilds. If anything this adds another layer of lvling progression to the game.
This game really isn't about leveling, and never has been. It does have a lvl cap of 80(unless they changed this?), so I don't see why anyone would be complaining about there not being enough lvls. Get that mentallity out of your head, if you plan to try this game out. It plays differently than other MMOs, that is the point. If you want a similar to MMO to what you've already had, SWTOR is shaping up to offer that. It has a lot of aspects that are very familiar. GW2 doesn't have too many.
This game really isn't about leveling, and never has been. It does have a lvl cap of 80(unless they changed this?), so I don't see why anyone would be complaining about there not being enough lvls.
I never really understood that kind of thinking.
What does it matter if a game have 20 or 100 levels? It is the time it takes to max out that matters, for me a game can have 5 or 500 levels, levels are just simple steps to simulate experience and to ease the player into knowing how to play.
I simply think the people that tend to get bored of games quickly will get bored of GW2 (or amy other mmo) as well. Seems to be a trend these days? Or perhaps they are not even playing in the right genre?
What lack of endgame? Lol. I swear, some people will just never get this game; even if beaten over the head with it's design mechanics. This game has just as much, if not more, endgame as all the other MMOs out there. The only thing it doesn't have are your weekly raids, logging in & waiting for everyone to get there; playing for a couple hours, and then logging off because the raid is done and locked. Sounds like a blast...
Again, and this info has been out for months now, you have replayable dungeons, PvP, WvWvW, crafting, upper level dynamic events, underwater content to explore, titles & achievements to gain, armor / weapons to collect, personal storylines to complete. The guild content will also be another thing to spend your time on. Lvling guilds and gaining perks for being in said guilds. If anything this adds another layer of lvling progression to the game.
This game really isn't about leveling, and never has been. It does have a lvl cap of 80(unless they changed this?), so I don't see why anyone would be complaining about there not being enough lvls. Get that mentallity out of your head, if you plan to try this game out. It plays differently than other MMOs, that is the point. If you want a similar to MMO to what you've already had, SWTOR is shaping up to offer that. It has a lot of aspects that are very familiar. GW2 doesn't have too many.
QFT.
The argument of GW2 having no end game is idiotic. I'm anxious for the game to be released just to put some of that ignorance to rest finally.
I understand the argument that "end game begins at level 1" for GW2. Nevertheless, there will be levels. Before we can debate what "end game" will mean in the context of GW2, we must first ask the questions "what are levels and what do they add to the MMO experience?" Levels are mostly a visual representation of your character's advancement often accompanied by statistical increases and new ability gains. This concept of character progression is the driving force of MMOs. It's the primary factor that has driven millions of players to perform hundreds of hours of boring, tedious work that has become known as "the grind." While I love the less-grind more-fun philosophy Anet has approached GW2 with, there will still need to be compelling progression reasons for players to want to continue with their main characters for years to come.
So levels provide a sense of advancement. Once you reach max level, if a character no longer has a visual representation of progress and the statistical increases that accompany level gain, something needs to fill that void. If your game is going to use the level model, and if max level is going to be easily obtainable, there must be features put in place to allow for further, compelling character advancement. That doesn't have to be raiding, but there must be something.
I would add one additional requirement to what we have come to think of as "end game progression." It's not sufficient for advancement at this stage to be easily attained. There needs to be an element of difficulty and challenge in progressing your character to the max, and that challenge must either have required a great deal of individual skill or a great deal of teamwork and coordination, or else it won't feel very rewarding and will feel underwhelming relative to the rest of the playerbase.
NOTE: this mentality represents what some players would call the "hardcore" player mentality. While I don't subscribe to such silly, exhaustive dichotomies as hardcore/casual, I do recognize that there are players who approach MMOs with varying degrees of desire for difficulty and rewarding character advancement post-level cap. I'm simply stating that the type of player I described above does exist in a rather large quantity, and that "stuff," of whatever content type, must be implemented to accomodate such desires for progression.
Personally, I'm an altaholic. I love playing a variety of classes. I already know I really want to play 4 GW2 classes and all 5 races at least once, and throroughly complete the personal stories for all 5. That alone sounds like it will be plenty of content for me at the onset, but even with several "alts," I will like to be advancing my "main" as far as the game will currently allow me; and I hope that advancement will be seriously challenging and require tight-knit group coordination.
Lack of end game? I'd say the best end game to this point... What do you think epic dynamic events are for? Why do you think Anet will keep on adding dynamic events post launch? Next to this we will also be able to do adventure mode 5 man instances, WvWvW pvp and structured pvp. Not to forget GW2 will feature and epic story which has a high replayability value.
(Playing devil's advocate here)
Public events do not require the organization or strategy that instanced endgame often requires. In my experience most public grouping is nothing short of a cluster.... (bunch of players running around and flashy lights everywhere...nobody really making a difference)
My opinion is that as replayable as GW2 might be, many players who have invested so much time in their character arne't going to want to 'start over' again. They want to develop and progress their character beyond what a casual player might do. If there is no "progression raiding", how is a player going to progress his/her character. What about a player that doesn't PvP?
(Devil's advocate hat off)
Of course, if the content is enjoyable to play through from the outset, running it is its own reward. If a game needs an artificial mechanic to keep people interested in it such a raid progression, which basically just puts locks on content that only griding can open, then that game is weak to start with. You're just trading time in order to unlock the next bit of content. If you want to see it, prepare to run the same stuff over and over again, no matter how much you hate it. That is not my idea of fun, and it is at this point that I usually stop playing.
As far as I'm concerned, GW2's "end-game" begins at level one and ends when I get bored. The game doesn't encounter a paradigm shift in playstyle once the cap is reached, it will only get more complex and, hopefully, challenging. I look forward to running all the dungeons a few times because I know that they are designed to throw random events at you, making each run something of an unknown. And when I've run them all a few times and have collected the tokens for my special armor sets, I'll probably run them again to see if something new happens. It depends on how much fun they are.
I won't even bother touching on PvP, which even has a long-time PvE enthusiast like myself, eager to give it a try.
Bottom line for me? Raiding is nothing more than a method of stretching out the time you spend in a game by introducing contrived delays in accessing content. Gear grinding and group sizes are simply artificial impediments used to keep players on the hook, in lieu of being able to entice them to stay in the game because they are having a blast.
Guild Wars for me was more about the story and playing the classes so i wouldn't worry about end game til i get there which might be awhile lol especially with most mmo games i tend to play alone because lack of people i know get into these games.
Why the fascination with end game? This is the exact sort of comments and sillyness that Ive come to expect from the themepark kiddies.
You do realize that MMO's in the past focused on community building, playing together and pride in doing a good days worth of hunting for your realm, doesnt matter how its done, via solo killing, farming for mats, grinding for gold, or killing enemies from other realms (or in GW2's future case, different servers). We got along jsut nicely without raids before, and by GD we will get along with out them again.
Ive played MMO's for 11+ years now for 3-4 hours per day over that time frame, and rarely was my time spent doing orgainized raids, as find the that a disasterous by-product of the WoW crowd, and I refuse to do any sort of gaming that entails me logging in a particular time, and argue with idiots like the raid leader from this soundboard: http://www.troxed.com/soundboard.php
Seriously the vast majority of organized raids I have ever been in has people, not quite as bad as Troxx but pretty damn close and I refuse to be the bait for E-trolls.
Playing: GW2 Waiting on: TESO Next Flop: Planetside 2 Best MMO of all time: Asheron's Call - The first company to recreate AC will be the next greatest MMO.
Comments
GW2 wont appeal some players because of this but on the other way it will instead attract the people who are bored of the raiding hamsterwheel.
So yes and no, but I don't think it would get more players for doing the same things as everyone else. Of course it is possible that an average player might stay a month less or 2 then they would have in a traditional game but unlike games with monthly fees is that not an issue here.
The fact that GW2 mainly will live on box sales (including expansions) is what makes it possible for ANET to have a game with less grind and I think that actually will attract many players.
Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)
They will be more than 2 weeks. You need to add time for the head scratching while they look for conventional quest npc
If they do the WvWvW right, it will go 75% of the way to keeping me happy...
I am an old hardcore EQ 72 person raid raider....I have sat around with 80ish people for something to spawn for 6-8 hours, I have sat around with 30-50 people to do epic stuff, that has a 2-3 day random timer window, while getting a couple hours of sleep, with people having my number if something spawns while I am getting my 2-4 hours sleep...and having to reclear old EQ planes while you wait....Dying up to 30 times during some raids, due to 1 of the 72 making a mistake, and bringing a 50-70 mob train on the raid....As crazy as it sounds, yeah I enjoy raiding...But I also enjoyed games that had no real/conventional raiding, like UO.
So does GW2 'need' raiding to be a good game, no, not if they provide other things to do. I enjoy choices, I explore, pve, pvp, harvest, craft, do side games (like diplomacy in VG), and some collectable type stuff.
Someone mentioned Rift, I just quit Rift, it had no real depth, or quality options imo. The world was too small. IT is a good game, if you like the direction they are going. I just see how they limited things, or as people refer to as a rail...Made a story line so they only had to have 1 starting area for each side, limited races, etc.... The soul combos/points was nice, they did a lot of good things...I just couldn't get past the limiting design of the world...So I am not bashing them, just wasn't for me...I am hoping that GW2 does it better (like make the 3 'home' areas in WvWvW not the same for every server, even though its easy to say why it would be, thats kind of boring imo).
Lots of players will have to adjust, which i think is a good thing. People are tired on the EQ/WoW endgame model and just wanna have fun.
Endgame starts at level 1.
No, the type of player that gets a new game and powerlevel up a character are very driven... They will find a way to max out in a week no matter what, then they will start whine hear and after another week they will leave.
Happens whenever a new game launches. I call them "Bungie players", they jump in and out a game so fast that the rest of us hardly even notice them.
EQ wasn't really like that in the beginning, people were actually proud to have a max level character there because it took a lot of work.
ANET is running a different game based more on style and titles which is good.
Yes, it will. It looks to me like GW2 endgame will be all about PvP. That means that PvE players won't have anything to do at endgame.
lol at 'lack' of endgame..
Guild Wars 2 Youtube Croatian Maniacs
My Guild Wars titles
I played GW for years and I mainly play PvE...
You collect titels and neat looking stuff instead of stats, that will be the big difference here.
Not like EQs AA system no. But you can collect titles and skills.
Some titles will be rather easy to get while others will take a lot of work. LOL, in the original GW they have a titel if you reach max level without dying a single time and another weird one for maxing out in pre searing Ascalon, you can only get it if you let the mobs level up by killing you and then kill them for XP, it takes a long time...
It's thread like these that make me want ArenaNet to hurry up and release their game already, just to shut up these people who believe that raiding & gear grinding are the only true forms of endgame in the MMORPG genre. Similar to the people who say that Dungeons will be nothing but a zergfest, without the holy trinity, to clearly define the role a player must fulfill.
But alas, I do wish for ArenaNet to release a top quality MMO, that will make a huge splash when it finally releases and I'll enjoy my evenings in The Mist; raiding supply lines and stealth ganking other players with my friends.
What lack of endgame? Lol. I swear, some people will just never get this game; even if beaten over the head with it's design mechanics. This game has just as much, if not more, endgame as all the other MMOs out there. The only thing it doesn't have are your weekly raids, logging in & waiting for everyone to get there; playing for a couple hours, and then logging off because the raid is done and locked. Sounds like a blast...
Again, and this info has been out for months now, you have replayable dungeons, PvP, WvWvW, crafting, upper level dynamic events, underwater content to explore, titles & achievements to gain, armor / weapons to collect, personal storylines to complete. The guild content will also be another thing to spend your time on. Lvling guilds and gaining perks for being in said guilds. If anything this adds another layer of lvling progression to the game.
This game really isn't about leveling, and never has been. It does have a lvl cap of 80(unless they changed this?), so I don't see why anyone would be complaining about there not being enough lvls. Get that mentallity out of your head, if you plan to try this game out. It plays differently than other MMOs, that is the point. If you want a similar to MMO to what you've already had, SWTOR is shaping up to offer that. It has a lot of aspects that are very familiar. GW2 doesn't have too many.
How is this knowable in any way? Shouldn't we actually get to play at end game before developing an opinion?
I never really understood that kind of thinking.
What does it matter if a game have 20 or 100 levels? It is the time it takes to max out that matters, for me a game can have 5 or 500 levels, levels are just simple steps to simulate experience and to ease the player into knowing how to play.
I simply think the people that tend to get bored of games quickly will get bored of GW2 (or amy other mmo) as well. Seems to be a trend these days? Or perhaps they are not even playing in the right genre?
What a load of rubbish,you are as misinformed as the OP.http://realhistoryww.com/world_history/ancient/Misc/Jesus/Jesus.htm
QFT.
The argument of GW2 having no end game is idiotic. I'm anxious for the game to be released just to put some of that ignorance to rest finally.
President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club
I understand the argument that "end game begins at level 1" for GW2. Nevertheless, there will be levels. Before we can debate what "end game" will mean in the context of GW2, we must first ask the questions "what are levels and what do they add to the MMO experience?" Levels are mostly a visual representation of your character's advancement often accompanied by statistical increases and new ability gains. This concept of character progression is the driving force of MMOs. It's the primary factor that has driven millions of players to perform hundreds of hours of boring, tedious work that has become known as "the grind." While I love the less-grind more-fun philosophy Anet has approached GW2 with, there will still need to be compelling progression reasons for players to want to continue with their main characters for years to come.
So levels provide a sense of advancement. Once you reach max level, if a character no longer has a visual representation of progress and the statistical increases that accompany level gain, something needs to fill that void. If your game is going to use the level model, and if max level is going to be easily obtainable, there must be features put in place to allow for further, compelling character advancement. That doesn't have to be raiding, but there must be something.
I would add one additional requirement to what we have come to think of as "end game progression." It's not sufficient for advancement at this stage to be easily attained. There needs to be an element of difficulty and challenge in progressing your character to the max, and that challenge must either have required a great deal of individual skill or a great deal of teamwork and coordination, or else it won't feel very rewarding and will feel underwhelming relative to the rest of the playerbase.
NOTE: this mentality represents what some players would call the "hardcore" player mentality. While I don't subscribe to such silly, exhaustive dichotomies as hardcore/casual, I do recognize that there are players who approach MMOs with varying degrees of desire for difficulty and rewarding character advancement post-level cap. I'm simply stating that the type of player I described above does exist in a rather large quantity, and that "stuff," of whatever content type, must be implemented to accomodate such desires for progression.
Personally, I'm an altaholic. I love playing a variety of classes. I already know I really want to play 4 GW2 classes and all 5 races at least once, and throroughly complete the personal stories for all 5. That alone sounds like it will be plenty of content for me at the onset, but even with several "alts," I will like to be advancing my "main" as far as the game will currently allow me; and I hope that advancement will be seriously challenging and require tight-knit group coordination.
It is still a treadmill no matter how you look at it. At least with stats I have a sense of progression and reward as my toon is stronger.
If they do it like GW1 you get bonuses depending on what title you display?
My theme song.
Of course, if the content is enjoyable to play through from the outset, running it is its own reward. If a game needs an artificial mechanic to keep people interested in it such a raid progression, which basically just puts locks on content that only griding can open, then that game is weak to start with. You're just trading time in order to unlock the next bit of content. If you want to see it, prepare to run the same stuff over and over again, no matter how much you hate it. That is not my idea of fun, and it is at this point that I usually stop playing.
As far as I'm concerned, GW2's "end-game" begins at level one and ends when I get bored. The game doesn't encounter a paradigm shift in playstyle once the cap is reached, it will only get more complex and, hopefully, challenging. I look forward to running all the dungeons a few times because I know that they are designed to throw random events at you, making each run something of an unknown. And when I've run them all a few times and have collected the tokens for my special armor sets, I'll probably run them again to see if something new happens. It depends on how much fun they are.
I won't even bother touching on PvP, which even has a long-time PvE enthusiast like myself, eager to give it a try.
Bottom line for me? Raiding is nothing more than a method of stretching out the time you spend in a game by introducing contrived delays in accessing content. Gear grinding and group sizes are simply artificial impediments used to keep players on the hook, in lieu of being able to entice them to stay in the game because they are having a blast.
Guild Wars for me was more about the story and playing the classes so i wouldn't worry about end game til i get there which might be awhile lol especially with most mmo games i tend to play alone because lack of people i know get into these games.
PSN-SlyFox5679
Xfire-Slyfox5679
raptr-slygamer1979
Why the fascination with end game? This is the exact sort of comments and sillyness that Ive come to expect from the themepark kiddies.
You do realize that MMO's in the past focused on community building, playing together and pride in doing a good days worth of hunting for your realm, doesnt matter how its done, via solo killing, farming for mats, grinding for gold, or killing enemies from other realms (or in GW2's future case, different servers). We got along jsut nicely without raids before, and by GD we will get along with out them again.
Ive played MMO's for 11+ years now for 3-4 hours per day over that time frame, and rarely was my time spent doing orgainized raids, as find the that a disasterous by-product of the WoW crowd, and I refuse to do any sort of gaming that entails me logging in a particular time, and argue with idiots like the raid leader from this soundboard: http://www.troxed.com/soundboard.php
Seriously the vast majority of organized raids I have ever been in has people, not quite as bad as Troxx but pretty damn close and I refuse to be the bait for E-trolls.
Everything you need to know about Elder Scrolls Online
Playing: GW2
Waiting on: TESO
Next Flop: Planetside 2
Best MMO of all time: Asheron's Call - The first company to recreate AC will be the next greatest MMO.