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[Poll] Human Naytheists: Should it be an option?

Dream_ChaserDream_Chaser BGPosts: 1,043Member

To describe a Naytheist in context to Guild Wars 2 I would say it would be someone who is capable of recognising the existence of powerful beings, but one that refuses to acknowledge them as 'gods,' and finds them unworthy of praise. Perhaps even someone, whom due to past transgressions, would even find these so-called 'gods' their foes, something to fight and slur at every opportunity they get.

In Nightfall I discovered that the gods are particularly horrible people and not so much worthy of any kind of respect, and everything seemed like a game to them, or at the very least beneath their notice. They could have taken a more active role in dealing with Abaddon at any point, but they did not, they were often aloof, moving pieces around a board, and seeing everything as something that happened for their entertainment. For example, Balthazar might have been watching a warrior, amused by his actions, and may have set his sword alight to see if that resulted in even more amusement for the god.

To me they seemed like purely selfish creatures, and they were pulling the strings of both the humans and the charr from day one. Those who've only played Prophecies might not realise this, but in Nightfall it becomes visibly true. In other words, the whole war between humankind and the charr, and all related hostilities, even the war between the three human nations, might not have happened if the gods weren't tampering with human destiny and encourating war for their amusement.

To that end, I think that people who choose to play as a human should have the right to forge their own destiny. I think that ArenaNet would have a larger amount of human players if every human player could have the option to spurn these so-called 'gods' and go their own way, being independent, and having no faith in any superior creature, only in their own peoples, their families, their friends, and their allies. I think that in limiting humans to needing to praise the gods in their personal storyline is a bit of a mistake, since I'm certain that not all human players will want to do that after Nightfall. In fact, to some it might even seem as though everything they did in Nightfall was in vain.

So thus I think there should be the option to have a human who stands independently and without faith in the gods, one whom forges their own path into the future, free of any such manipulations. I think that should be a personal storyline option for human characters, even if it does set development back a bit.

What do you think? Would you play as a Naytheist character?

(I've tried to create a poll here that should give everyone the sort of answer they'd desire.)

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Comments

  • miceinblackmiceinblack Gurnee, ILPosts: 122Member

    It would make sense for some humans not to believe in Gods especially if those humans feel that the Gods have failed them. Heh, I suppose Science could be a god.

  • ArglebargleArglebargle Austin, TXPosts: 1,414Member Uncommon

    Sounds like an interesting and clever path.   I'm not likely to play a human for awhile in GW2, so it might not be as easily applicable to me.   I do like the idea of 'acknowledgement of powerful beings unworthy of worship'.

    If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.

  • ExilorExilor Las Palmas de Gran CanariaPosts: 391Member

    You don't choose a god to believe in, but a god which other people felt you were blessed by when you were little. The character's personal beliefs is not involved.

     

    BTW don't paint religious people as sheeple, in the game lore or in RL. The first because the gods of tyria do not "meddle" with or "dictate" humanity's fate or anything like that and don't demand adoration, and the second because it's quite the flame bait.

  • DiovidiusDiovidius GoudaPosts: 1,025Member

    Originally posted by Exilor

    You don't choose a god to believe in, but a god which other people felt you were blessed by when you were little. The character's personal beliefs is not involved.

    This.

  • miceinblackmiceinblack Gurnee, ILPosts: 122Member

    Hard to argue with that but those other people must be so judgemental :)

  • OP is laboring under a false premise.  If the gods exist and are powerful who is to say your character has any choice in the matter.  A god chooses to bless or curse you tough shit, deal with it you don't like it.

     

    You could have gods interfering in your life constantly and resent the hell out of it.  In fact a few fantasy novels are based on the idea.

  • MeowheadMeowhead New Carlisle, INPosts: 3,716Member

    Since there's no personal story option to specifically state you believe in human gods, I'm not sure what the point to this is.

  • grimm6thgrimm6th Overland Park, KSPosts: 973Member

    In tyria, gods exist.  This idea sounds like a particually badly designed enemy faction.

    I used to TL;DR, but then I took a bullet point to the footnote.

  • xm522xm522 Miami, FLPosts: 114Member Uncommon

    i am very inclined here to agree with the OP. for w/e reason, players should have the option to not worship any god, or have any god's blessing. player choice is very important to me

  • AKASlaphappyAKASlaphappy Boise, IDPosts: 800Member

    Just role-play that you are part of the white mantle, problem solved! :)

  • DiovidiusDiovidius GoudaPosts: 1,025Member

    Originally posted by grimm6th

    In tyria, gods exist.  This idea sounds like a particually badly designed enemy faction.

    The gods exist, yes, but are they gods? Being an atheist in Tyria would not be doubting their existance but doubting their divinity and the need to worship them like the Charr do. We know gods can be killed, we know at least some of them are ascended mortals (Abbadon, Grenth and Kormir), we know the Elder Dragons predate the gods (at least on the world of Tyria) and we know the Elder Dragons rival the gods in power. What is to say that they aren't just powerful spellcasters?

    And even doubting their existance would be feasible in the world of GW2 since the gods went even more silent after Nightfall than they were before that. I think there will be humans wondering why the gods are so silent now in a time where Elder Dragons (amongst other things) threaten humanity's very survival.

  • andre369andre369 .Posts: 944Member Uncommon

    The question aint if they actually believe in them, because they are "real", unlike in the real world. But sure, I would not mind being able to have options that I did not want to be assosiated with any of the gods and choose to rely on technology and the human spirit itself. So why not?

  • ExilorExilor Las Palmas de Gran CanariaPosts: 391Member

     


    Originally posted by xm522

    i am very inclined here to agree with the OP. for w/e reason, players should have the option to not worship any god, or have any god's blessing. player choice is very important to me

     

    Again, they don't ask you what your character believes or doesn't believe. You're asked the opinion of other people around you.

     


    Originally posted by gestalt11

    OP is laboring under a false premise.  If the gods exist and are powerful who is to say your character has any choice in the matter.  A god chooses to bless or curse you tough shit, deal with it you don't like it.

     

    You could have gods interfering in your life constantly and resent the hell out of it.  In fact a few fantasy novels are based on the idea.

     

     

    There is no indication that the gods actually blessed the player. Or that they do bless anyone like that, without a reason.

     


    Originally posted by Diovidius

    Originally posted by grimm6th

    In tyria, gods exist.  This idea sounds like a particually badly designed enemy faction.

    The gods exist, yes, but are they gods? Being an atheist in Tyria would not be doubting their existance but doubting their divinity and the need to worship them like the Charr do. We know gods can be killed, we know at least some of them are ascended mortals (Abbadon, Grenth and Kormir), we know the Elder Dragons predate the gods (at least on the world of Tyria) and we know the Elder Dragons rival the gods in power. What is to say that they aren't just powerful spellcasters?

    And even doubting their existance would be feasible in the world of GW2 since the gods went even more silent after Nightfall than they were before that. I think there will be humans wondering why the gods are so silent now in a time where Elder Dragons (amongst other things) threaten humanity's very survival.

     

    That gods in tyria do not work like god in the bible does not mean they're fakers. In egyptian mythology, Osiris died and then was resurrected by Isis. In gw2, the power of a god can't be destroyed (that's why Kormir had to contain it in her body). 

     

    ------------------------------------------------------

     

    And again, YOUR CHARACTER'S BELIEFS ARE NOT ASKED NOR EXPLORED. IT'S GOSSIP, IT'S OPINION AND IT'S OTHER PEOPLE'S SUBJECTIVITY.

  • XAPKenXAPKen Northwest, INPosts: 4,916Member Uncommon

    One doesn't often find religious positioning as a character option.

     

    My characters?  They worship the Daedra.  Problem solved.  Now where'd I put that skooma?


    Ken Fisher - Semi retired old fart Network Administrator, now turned Amateur Game Developer.  I don't Forum PVP.  If you feel I've attacked you, it was probably by accident.  Realm Lords 2 on MMORPG.com
  • DiovidiusDiovidius GoudaPosts: 1,025Member

    Originally posted by Exilor


    Originally posted by Diovidius


    Originally posted by grimm6th

    In tyria, gods exist.  This idea sounds like a particually badly designed enemy faction.

    The gods exist, yes, but are they gods? Being an atheist in Tyria would not be doubting their existance but doubting their divinity and the need to worship them like the Charr do. We know gods can be killed, we know at least some of them are ascended mortals (Abbadon, Grenth and Kormir), we know the Elder Dragons predate the gods (at least on the world of Tyria) and we know the Elder Dragons rival the gods in power. What is to say that they aren't just powerful spellcasters?

    And even doubting their existance would be feasible in the world of GW2 since the gods went even more silent after Nightfall than they were before that. I think there will be humans wondering why the gods are so silent now in a time where Elder Dragons (amongst other things) threaten humanity's very survival.

    That gods in tyria do not work like god in the bible does not mean they're fakers. In egyptian mythology, Osiris died and then was resurrected by Isis. In gw2, the power of a god can't be destroyed (that's why Kormir had to contain it in her body). 

    But how do we know they aren't fakers? What exactly is the difference between the Mursaat and the human gods, other than the fact that the later have more power? What makes them divine instead of mortal? What makes them worthy of worship compared to other beings (such as Mursaat and Titans)?

  • semantikronsemantikron Edwardsville, ILPosts: 258Member

    Well, it could be interesting if individuals of one race could grow up as a member of one of the others, which sounds like what you are asking for.

    I am a human, and this is my story:  I was raised by the Charr/Norn/Asura/Sylvari as one of their own.

    Charr: Outta my way.
    Human: What's your problem?
    Charr: Your thin skin.

  • cali59cali59 B, NYPosts: 1,634Member

     Does this thread remind anybody else of this poster?

    {mod edit}

    I think I'm going to resist the urge to continue a religious debate on what constitutes a god which will probably result in the thread getting locked.  I'm just going to say I'm with Exilor on this one.  The question is only asking what people said when you were young, not what actually happened or what your character believes. 

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZSM8UqNxODI&feature=player_detailpage#t=456s

    "Gamers will no longer buy the argument that every MMO requires a subscription fee to offset server and bandwidth costs. It's not true – you know it, and they know it." -Jeff Strain, co-founder of ArenaNet, 2007

  • DvalonDvalon IrvinePosts: 314Member Uncommon

    {mod edit}

    As for religion in games I feel it has no place at all, to many people relate it to real world religions and all sorts of strife tends to follow, seen it happen in other games, WOW took the right path by making neither horde nor alliance evil, simply different, GW2 and any other Future mmo should do the same.

  • UnlightUnlight Ottawa, ONPosts: 2,540Member

    Originally posted by Dvalon

    {mod edit}

    As for religion in games I feel it has no place at all, to many people relate it to real world religions and all sorts of strife tends to follow, seen it happen in other games, WOW took the right path by making neither horde nor alliance evil, simply different, GW2 and any other Future mmo should do the same.

    I don't actually disagree with you about evolution, but this is flamebait.  Just so you know.

    But I completely disagree with you about the place of religion in games.  The added context that religious worship can bring can often deepen the experience.  For instance, I've been tabletop RPing one game for the past 20 years in which the role of religion is absolutely paramount and forms the underpinnings of everything in that world.  When I play a character, indeed, when any one of my buddies plays a character, it is almost always as a devout worshipper of one deity or another.  In fact, the more zealous you are in promoting the tenets of your faith, the more likely it is that you excel.  This is one of the reasons why we, as a group, have been devoted to this one game for decades.

    In RL, I'm an unapolegetic atheist.  In RPGs, I'm a believer.  And in GW2, I will follow Lyssa faithfully, even if she's no longer speaking to us.  The charr are free to dismiss the gods if they want, but I know they are still listening.  No apostacy for me.  I only wish they had an even bigger part because I would love to have been able to partially define my characters according to a sacred cult role, as well as all the rest.

  • ExilorExilor Las Palmas de Gran CanariaPosts: 391Member

    Originally posted by Diovidius

    Originally posted by Exilor



    Originally posted by Diovidius


    Originally posted by grimm6th

    In tyria, gods exist.  This idea sounds like a particually badly designed enemy faction.

    The gods exist, yes, but are they gods? Being an atheist in Tyria would not be doubting their existance but doubting their divinity and the need to worship them like the Charr do. We know gods can be killed, we know at least some of them are ascended mortals (Abbadon, Grenth and Kormir), we know the Elder Dragons predate the gods (at least on the world of Tyria) and we know the Elder Dragons rival the gods in power. What is to say that they aren't just powerful spellcasters?

    And even doubting their existance would be feasible in the world of GW2 since the gods went even more silent after Nightfall than they were before that. I think there will be humans wondering why the gods are so silent now in a time where Elder Dragons (amongst other things) threaten humanity's very survival.

    That gods in tyria do not work like god in the bible does not mean they're fakers. In egyptian mythology, Osiris died and then was resurrected by Isis. In gw2, the power of a god can't be destroyed (that's why Kormir had to contain it in her body). 

    But how do we know they aren't fakers? What exactly is the difference between the Mursaat and the human gods, other than the fact that the later have more power? What makes them divine instead of mortal? What makes them worthy of worship compared to other beings (such as Mursaat and Titans)?

    If you want to question the very definition of a god, there is not much others can say. Unless ArenaNet goes ahead and say that they're aliens pretending to be gods a la Stargate Goa'ulds, the most reasonable explanation is that they are what they appear to be and have always been described as: gods.

     

     


    Originally posted by Dvalon

    God does not exist, this is not flame bait its fact, Darwin ended the argument. Evolution ! .

    As for religion in games I feel it has no place at all, to many people relate it to real world religions and all sorts of strife tends to follow, seen it happen in other games, WOW took the right path by making neither horde nor alliance evil, simply different, GW2 and any other Future mmo should do the same.


     

     

    I'm sorry, but your personal beliefs or lack of them have nothing to do with this or any other game. If christians demanded that the christian god was there as an option for them, OH the drama.

    And again, the gods of gw do not demand worship, do not meddle with anyone's destiny or free will, and have nothing to do with your personal peeves with any RL religion.

  • RollmeisterRollmeister South WalesPosts: 41Member

    It seems that MMO developers shy away from religion as a major character defining aspect precisely because of some of the points raised in this thread.  People have a real problem disassociating their real-life views on religion with their views of in-game religion.  No-one wants a game to become flame-bait by design!

    That said, I do believe that choice is good, and allowing your characters to be members of a religious cult/agnostic/atheist should be valid character points.  As most games do not go into this level of detail, however, it is there for you to decide and role-play as you wish.

    I'm 30% Rock, 10% Roll, 50% Nerd and 10% Troll.
    Axis of Awesome - Moderately Rock and Roll

  • semantikronsemantikron Edwardsville, ILPosts: 258Member

    Questions of RL religion aside (like, waaaaaayyyyy to the side  --------->>>   over there somewhere), this is an issue of game mechanics.  We are talking about a game.  And as I said, it seems the easiest way to accommodate the OP within the current mechanics is to allow a character the choice of being raised in a culture other than their own.

    For example, a human raised as a Charr would see the world (from a game mechanics point of view) the way the OP asks.  Unless he just wants to RP the fact that his character grew up with posters of Rytlock on his wall.

    Charr: Outta my way.
    Human: What's your problem?
    Charr: Your thin skin.

  • TekaelonTekaelon Brookhaven, MSPosts: 531Member Uncommon

    Regardless of what you choose to call the gods of GW2,  they obviously exist on a higher level of life.

    Criteria for godhood

    Total or partial omnicience (having very great or seemingly unlimited knowledge )

    Total or parial omnipreence (present in all places at the same time)

    Divine willl (A determined path for life )

    Divine power (Focus of power through followers)

    All 6 deities from the original guild wars lore demonstrated each aspect of the above. This is unlike the Marsat who were just a powerful race of beings who tried to dominate the world. In fact there downfall was propagated by the GW gods.

    Despite all this Tyria's inhabitents have free will that allows anyone to firmly stick their head in the sand and ignore/deny the obvious influences the gods have in the world.  You are allowed to believe as you want, without fear of worldly retribution. Unfortunately this will likely be something a player will need RP.

    I don't wish this to turn into a flame war, but please don't refer to those that believe in God as sheeple. There is room for many ideas other than freely acccepting an incomplete theory of the world and life being formed through a series of random events. As a software designer I know that that writing random bits of syntax will not produce an efficent functioning program. The same is true of life on a much much more complex scale. You don't have to believe in any peticular religion to acknowledge the evidence of design.  Neither science mor religion give all the answers, and there is certianly nothing wrong with questioning both, unless you are a fanatic.

     

     

     

     

  • Grigor_BronGrigor_Bron Murfreesborro, TNPosts: 129Member

    Well, if you're concerned about the behavior of the six gods in Nightfall, couldn't you simply swear allegiance to Kormir? Don't get me wrong, I think it would be awesome to have more options related to the foundational beliefs of one's character (and am not entirely sure such an attitude can't already be reflected in your choices - someone needs to ask a dev about it), but there is a god available who wasn't involved in any of the stuff you mentioned. Also, it could be argued that asking a human to denounce the gods would be like asking a charr to take up bottany.

  • UnlightUnlight Ottawa, ONPosts: 2,540Member

    Originally posted by semantikron

    Questions of RL religion aside (like, waaaaaayyyyy to the side  --------->>>   over there somewhere), this is an issue of game mechanics.  We are talking about a game.  And as I said, it seems the easiest way to accommodate the OP within the current mechanics is to allow a character the choice of being raised in a culture other than their own.

    For example, a human raised as a Charr would see the world (from a game mechanics point of view) the way the OP asks.  Unless he just wants to RP the fact that his character grew up with posters of Rytlock on his wall.

    I'm pretty sure that Dream_Chaser did, at least. ;)

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