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Chain armor Vs plate armor, MMO armors makes no sense

Loke666Loke666 MalmöPosts: 18,045Member Uncommon

 


Chainmails are in opposite to what most MMO devs seems to think actually both heavier and harder to move in than a plate mail. In have been proved again and again (if you want to see an example, see when they test them against each other in “The deadliest warrior – Jeanne Dárc  Vs Wilhelm the Conqueror from a few weeks back).


 


Chainmail and platemail represent 2 different technologies and generally are chainmail primitive and offers a lot less protection. Platemail is a evolution of it that offers greatly improved protection and better movement. I own a chainmail myself and have tried out plate as well.


 


And yet in MMOs chainmail is a lighter armor often used by rogues or swashbucklers side by side with warriors using plate mail. It makes no sense whatsoever.


 


Sure, the Romans had both a breastplate and chainmail armors but the Roman breastplate were a lot more primitive than the 15- early 16th century plate armors that MMO plates are based on.


 


Why do some classes have acess to chain armor but not plate? It just makes no sense.

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Comments

  • drbaltazardrbaltazar drummondville, QCPosts: 7,987Member

    Originally posted by Loke666

     


    Chainmails are in opposite to what most MMO devs seems to think actually both heavier and harder to move in than a plate mail. In have been proved again and again (if you want to see an example, see when they test them against each other in “The deadliest warrior – Jeanne Dárc  Vs Wilhelm the Conqueror from a few weeks back).


     


    Chainmail and platemail represent 2 different technologies and generally are chainmail primitive and offers a lot less protection. Platemail is a evolution of it that offers greatly improved protection and better movement. I own a chainmail myself and have tried out plate as well.


     


    And yet in MMOs chainmail is a lighter armor often used by rogues or swashbucklers side by side with warriors using plate mail. It makes no sense whatsoever.


     


    Sure, the Romans had both a breastplate and chainmail armors but the Roman breastplate were a lot more primitive than the 15- early 16th century plate armors that MMO plates are based on.


     


    Why do some classes have acess to chain armor but not plate? It just makes no sense.

     i bet most dev dont know that in real life mail weightmore then plate.unless they expect plate to be 3 inch thick?

  • Short-StrawShort-Straw Berthoud, COPosts: 422Member

    I was under the impression that non-european mail of the 1300 to 1700's was significantly lighter than plate. Perhaps that's where the developers get their concept. Perhaps I'm an raving idiot and totally wrong too.

    image

  • BladestromBladestrom edinburghPosts: 4,946Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Loke666

     


    Chainmails are in opposite to what most MMO devs seems to think actually both heavier and harder to move in than a plate mail. In have been proved again and again (if you want to see an example, see when they test them against each other in “The deadliest warrior – Jeanne Dárc  Vs Wilhelm the Conqueror from a few weeks back).


     


    Chainmail and platemail represent 2 different technologies and generally are chainmail primitive and offers a lot less protection. Platemail is a evolution of it that offers greatly improved protection and better movement. I own a chainmail myself and have tried out plate as well.


     


    And yet in MMOs chainmail is a lighter armor often used by rogues or swashbucklers side by side with warriors using plate mail. It makes no sense whatsoever.


     


    Sure, the Romans had both a breastplate and chainmail armors but the Roman breastplate were a lot more primitive than the 15- early 16th century plate armors that MMO plates are based on.


     


    Why do some classes have acess to chain armor but not plate? It just makes no sense.

    the point is what is more intuitive?

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  • Loke666Loke666 MalmöPosts: 18,045Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by drbaltazar

     i bet most dev dont know that in real life mail weightmore then plate.unless they expect plate to be 3 inch thick?

    The interesting part is that all MMOs make the same mistake. Someone should actually know a little about old technology.

    If anyone just put motion sensors on the armor for animations they would see it directly.

  • jinxxed0jinxxed0 columbia, SCPosts: 838Member

    They also need to realize that all female armor should be super skimpy. Yes, should be.

     

    You see Sir Scan Tallyclad did tests that proved, the more skin a female fighter exsposes to the air around her, the more powerful she becomes and the more resistance she has against attacks.

     

  • Loke666Loke666 MalmöPosts: 18,045Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Short-Straw

    I was under the impression that non-european mail of the 1300 to 1700's was significantly lighter than plate. Perhaps that's where the developers get their concept. Perhaps I'm an raving idiot and totally wrong too.

    It wasn't. Both Asian mail from China and Japan and the middle east plate still weights more.

    That doesn't mean you a raving idiot or anything, it is a common mistake but whenyou make a game you should at least learn such basic as this.

    Talk to anyone in ARMA or SCA, they know this.

  • Loke666Loke666 MalmöPosts: 18,045Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by jinxxed0

    They also need to realize that all female armor should be super skimpy. Yes, should be.

    You see Sir Scan Tallyclad did tests that proved, the more skin a female fighter exsposes to the air around her, the more powerful she becomes and the more resistance she has against attacks.

    Yeah, but that makes some sense (in the way that showing female skin makes geeks buy the game).

    The whole chainmail/platemail thing doesn't sell games, it is just silly and pointless.

  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Arkham, VAPosts: 10,910Member


    Originally posted by Loke666
     
    Chainmails are in opposite to what most MMO devs seems to think actually both heavier and harder to move in than a plate mail. In have been proved again and again (if you want to see an example, see when they test them against each other in “The deadliest warrior – Jeanne Dárc  Vs Wilhelm the Conqueror from a few weeks back).

    Chainmail and platemail represent 2 different technologies and generally are chainmail primitive and offers a lot less protection. Platemail is a evolution of it that offers greatly improved protection and better movement. I own a chainmail myself and have tried out plate as well.

    And yet in MMOs chainmail is a lighter armor often used by rogues or swashbucklers side by side with warriors using plate mail. It makes no sense whatsoever.

    Sure, the Romans had both a breastplate and chainmail armors but the Roman breastplate were a lot more primitive than the 15- early 16th century plate armors that MMO plates are based on.

    Why do some classes have acess to chain armor but not plate? It just makes no sense.



    If you ignore the weight of the armors, it makes perfect sense.
    Cloth is the most bendy with the least protection.
    Leather is less bendy, more protection.
    Chain mail is pretty bendy, but loud, more protection.
    Plate mail is the least bendy, but offers the most protection.

    None of the armors have to have the thick cotton under armor to keep you from chafing or getting bruised by your armor.

    Since most games ignore the weight (and usually the size) of stuff you're walking around with, it's not surprising that they can ignore the weight of your armor.

    ** edit **
    I have honestly never thought about the weight of armor, only how easy it is to bend your arms and stuff like that. I always wondered why these fantasy games, where you could create wormholes, fly, etc. never stumbled upon a stronger than steel laminate/cloth armor.

    ** edit edit **
    How about this: In the real world, chain armor is a bit thicker than plate armor, even though it's weaker. The chain mail ends up using more material than the plate armor, so it's heavier. In a game, all the armors are exactly the same thickness, so the plate armor being solid is heavier and stronger.

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  • LeoghanLeoghan Herndon, VAPosts: 607Member

    There are a number of things here. First Deadliest Warrior is pseydo science at best. As for plate vs. chain. This really is a hard contest to determine. There is not one sigular type of maille nor is there a singular type of plate. The concept that one was more agile in maille comes fromt he fact that most warrior wearing maille worn limited maile, usually a shirt, in contrast to a fully plate clad warrior they would of course be much more agile because overall they have fewer restrictions. 

    Add to this that there are differing levels of articulation associated with various kinds of plate armor. For instance jousting armor is notoriously restictive, because of its singular purpose. While Gothic armor tended to have greater articulation partly because it was created near the height of the plate armor epoch. Then take for instance the introdction of gunpowder and the movement towards nearly no armor aside for the use of cuirass and perhaps some armor on the upper legs. 

    Personally scale maille (Lamellar specifically) would be my armor of choice if I had to pick an all purpose armor for any period prior to the 18th century, but it was not widely adopted in most of Europe. 

  • Loke666Loke666 MalmöPosts: 18,045Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by lizardbones



    If you ignore the weight of the armors, it makes perfect sense.

    Cloth is the most bendy with the least protection.

    Leather is less bendy, more protection.

    Chain mail is pretty bendy, but loud, more protection.

    Plate mail is the least bendy, but offers the most protection.



    None of the armors have to have the thick cotton under armor to keep you from chafing or getting bruised by your armor.

    Since most games ignore the weight (and usually the size) of stuff you're walking around with, it's not surprising that they can ignore the weight of your armor.

    No, it doesn't. A platemail is brilliantly made so you can move easy in it. 

    It have joints at the right places while a chainmail cover the entire you. As I said, I own a chainmail but I also own some plate armor parts.

    The chainmail weights 10-15% more but the movement restriction is more than that. I can only recommend you to ggo down and talk to someone at your local ARMA about it.

  • zymurgeistzymurgeist Pittsville, VAPosts: 5,215Member Uncommon

    "Plate mail is the least bendy, but offers the most protection."

    Not true. Plate is actually easier to move in than heavy leather or chain mail with far superior protection. It's also difficult to make godawful expensive and must be fit to the individual.

     

    "Strong and bitter words indicate a weak cause" ~Victor Hugo

  • gainesvilleggainesvilleg Gainesville, FLPosts: 1,053Member

    Well, my uninformed opinion is didn't D&D kind of set up this perception long before video games?  If so blame D&D not MMO's and CRPGs.

    And, being that 99.9% of the world no longer knows what it feels like to wear chainmail and platemail, in one sense it doesnt matter.  In the fictional D&D/MMO/CRPG world maybe there is this armour called chainmail and this armour called platemail and the characteristics of it are exactly as they define them.  Who in the world, besides the OP, would know the difference.

    I also am not sure how realistic the various weapons are either.  Can't say I've ever wielded a morning star, mace, or even sword for that matter...

    As long as the rational makes sense to me I'm happy.  I like the idea that chain is lighter and good for slashing weapons but not bludgeoning. It seems intuitive even if not true...

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  • Loke666Loke666 MalmöPosts: 18,045Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Leoghan

    There are a number of things here. First Deadliest Warrior is pseydo science at best. As for plate vs. chain. This really is a hard contest to determine. There is not one sigular type of maille nor is there a singular type of plate. The concept that one was more agile in maille comes fromt he fact that most warrior wearing maille worn limited maile, usually a shirt, in contrast to a fully plate clad warrior they would of course be much more agile because overall they have fewer restrictions. 

    Add to this that there are differing levels of articulation associated with various kinds of plate armor. For instance jousting armor is notoriously restictive, because of its singular purpose. While Gothic armor tended to have greater articulation partly because it was created near the height of the plate armor epoch. Then take for instance the introdction of gunpowder and the movement towards nearly no armor aside for the use of cuirass and perhaps some armor on the upper legs. 

    Personally scale maille (Lamellar specifically) would be my armor of choice if I had to pick an all purpose armor for any period prior to the 18th century, but it was not widely adopted in most of Europe. 

    Yeah, I can agree the DW is not science, far from it. But I am actually an old SCA member. I own a armor myself (and several swords).

    There is a reason that plate mail took over completely and chainmail became obsolete.

    I am comparing full plate (full body plate, particularly the early 16th century landsknecht armor since it is similar to most MMO plates against the full body chainmail the Normans used in the 11th and 12 th century, again similar to what you see in MMOs.

    Jousting armor is not a combat armor, it was made specifically for a sport.

    Lamellar armor were actually very popular in the 14th century and is kinda in between chain and plate.

  • LeoghanLeoghan Herndon, VAPosts: 607Member

    Originally posted by zymurgeist

    "Plate mail is the least bendy, but offers the most protection."

    Not true. Plate is actually easier to move in than heavy leather or chain mail with far superior protection. It's also difficult to make godawful expensive and must be fit to the individual.

     

    It really depends on the plate. Articulation was not present in all forms of plate, it cost more and was a more advanced tech. So older or cheaper plate would not have the same kind of articulation. 

  • VryheidVryheid Baltimore, MDPosts: 469Member

    In most RPGs I play platemail is always a superior option to chainmail, and often times it does weigh less. Games that make it weigh more do so simply as a gameplay balancing mechanic (you don't want weak players starting off with the best armor), not to fit realism.

  • Loke666Loke666 MalmöPosts: 18,045Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Leoghan

    Originally posted by zymurgeist

    "Plate mail is the least bendy, but offers the most protection."

    Not true. Plate is actually easier to move in than heavy leather or chain mail with far superior protection. It's also difficult to make godawful expensive and must be fit to the individual.

     

    It really depends on the plate. Articulation was not present in all forms of plate, it cost more and was a more advanced tech. So older or cheaper plate would not have the same kind of articulation. 

    A plate like that were usually only a breatplate, not a full armor.

  • LeoghanLeoghan Herndon, VAPosts: 607Member

    Originally posted by Loke666

    Originally posted by Leoghan

    There are a number of things here. First Deadliest Warrior is pseydo science at best. As for plate vs. chain. This really is a hard contest to determine. There is not one sigular type of maille nor is there a singular type of plate. The concept that one was more agile in maille comes fromt he fact that most warrior wearing maille worn limited maile, usually a shirt, in contrast to a fully plate clad warrior they would of course be much more agile because overall they have fewer restrictions. 

    Add to this that there are differing levels of articulation associated with various kinds of plate armor. For instance jousting armor is notoriously restictive, because of its singular purpose. While Gothic armor tended to have greater articulation partly because it was created near the height of the plate armor epoch. Then take for instance the introdction of gunpowder and the movement towards nearly no armor aside for the use of cuirass and perhaps some armor on the upper legs. 

    Personally scale maille (Lamellar specifically) would be my armor of choice if I had to pick an all purpose armor for any period prior to the 18th century, but it was not widely adopted in most of Europe. 

    Yeah, I can agree the DW is not science, far from it. But I am actually an old SCA member. I own a armor myself (and several swords).

    There is a reason that plate mail took over completely and chainmail became obsolete.

    This is only true of the upper class. The poor still either had no armor, armor padding or very little armor. 

    I am comparing full plate (full body plate, particularly the early 16th century landsknecht armor since it is similar to most MMO plates against the full body chainmail the Normans used in the 11th and 12 th century, again similar to what you see in MMOs.

    Again, this is not very common though, it we are talking "average" even landed knight, neither would have been fielding full body armor until the later periods. 

    Jousting armor is not a combat armor, it was made specifically for a sport.

    As I said, it has one specific use.

    Lamellar armor were actually very popular in the 14th century and is kinda in between chain and plate.

    Lamellar, especially in metal was not seen widely in places like England, France or Italy. It tends to be more associated with central or eastern Europe when talking about European armor. 

  • Loke666Loke666 MalmöPosts: 18,045Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Vryheid

    In most RPGs I play platemail is always a superior option to chainmail, and often times it does weigh less. Games that make it weigh more do so simply as a gameplay balancing mechanic (you don't want weak players starting off with the best armor), not to fit realism.

    That makes as much sense as if World of planes would balance a Spitfire so it would be as good as a F4 Phantom.

    They are 2 different technologies and when plate came out chainmails went away. It would gameplay wise make sense if chainmail were low level armor and plate mail high level armor at least.

    The real problem is that MMOs mixes technologies that are hundreds and in some case a thousand years apart. And there were a reason that most old tech went away.

  • Loke666Loke666 MalmöPosts: 18,045Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Leoghan

    Originally posted by Loke666

    Yeah, I can agree the DW is not science, far from it. But I am actually an old SCA member. I own a armor myself (and several swords).

    There is a reason that plate mail took over completely and chainmail became obsolete.

    This is only true of the upper class. The poor still either had no armor, armor padding or very little armor. 

    I am comparing full plate (full body plate, particularly the early 16th century landsknecht armor since it is similar to most MMO plates against the full body chainmail the Normans used in the 11th and 12 th century, again similar to what you see in MMOs.

    Again, this is not very common though, it we are talking "average" even landed knight, neither would have been fielding full body armor until the later periods. 

    Jousting armor is not a combat armor, it was made specifically for a sport.

    As I said, it has one specific use.

    Lamellar armor were actually very popular in the 14th century and is kinda in between chain and plate.

    Lamellar, especially in metal was not seen widely in places like England, France or Italy. It tends to be more associated with central or eastern Europe when talking about European armor. 

    A chainmail is more expensive to make so you only used one in later periods if you had an old one lying somewhere. That most people had no armor whatsoever matters little because it is not the point here, MMOs have plenty of leather and cloth using classes and they do make sense.

    Having some chain and some plate classes just doesn't.

    It was also popular in Germany and Scandinavia. Most of what we know about it is actually what they dugged up after the battle of Visby 1361, I been there and checked out the old stuff and new reproductions.

  • maskedweaselmaskedweasel houston, TXPosts: 7,277Member Uncommon

    All I can say, when I go to the ren fest I think the big difference is, most people wearing chain - they kind of can choose about where they can wear it (though, lets face it,  its not all historically accurate, and that may be where the misconceptions come from).  Full chain mail?  I have no doubt that it weighs more,  but most wear head and chest, whereas wearing head and chest of plate I would imagine would be much clunkier,  not necessarily heavier, but I could see it being clunky.

     

    "Loan me a Dragon I wanna see space"


    image

  • LeoghanLeoghan Herndon, VAPosts: 607Member

    Originally posted by Loke666

    Originally posted by Leoghan


    Originally posted by Loke666

    Yeah, I can agree the DW is not science, far from it. But I am actually an old SCA member. I own a armor myself (and several swords).

    There is a reason that plate mail took over completely and chainmail became obsolete.

    This is only true of the upper class. The poor still either had no armor, armor padding or very little armor. 

    I am comparing full plate (full body plate, particularly the early 16th century landsknecht armor since it is similar to most MMO plates against the full body chainmail the Normans used in the 11th and 12 th century, again similar to what you see in MMOs.

    Again, this is not very common though, it we are talking "average" even landed knight, neither would have been fielding full body armor until the later periods. 

    Jousting armor is not a combat armor, it was made specifically for a sport.

    As I said, it has one specific use.

    Lamellar armor were actually very popular in the 14th century and is kinda in between chain and plate.

    Lamellar, especially in metal was not seen widely in places like England, France or Italy. It tends to be more associated with central or eastern Europe when talking about European armor. 

    A chainmail is more expensive to make so you only used one in later periods if you had an old one lying somewhere. That most people had no armor whatsoever matters little because it is not the point here, MMOs have plenty of leather and cloth using classes and they do make sense.

    Having some chain and some plate classes just doesn't.

    It was also popular in Germany and Scandinavia. Most of what we know about it is actually what they dugged up after the battle of Visby 1361, I been there and checked out the old stuff and new reproductions.

    You are making the argument that it is not historically accurate that chain and plate mix (which I tend to agree with), but then ignore the historical accuracy of the fact that most people in battles did not wear any (or much) armor. I can't see the point in wanting accuracy in one area and not another. Sorry I am a historian by trade, if we are going to seek accuracy in one area, why not in all?

    In my studies of history (in the US and the UK) I have found that Scandinavia and Germany during the middle ages are often lumped together with central or eastern Europe for these periods. 

  • Loke666Loke666 MalmöPosts: 18,045Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by maskedweasel

    All I can say, when I go to the ren fest I think the big difference is, most people wearing chain - they kind of can choose about where they can wear it (though, lets face it,  its not all historically accurate, and that may be where the misconceptions come from).  Full chain mail?  I have no doubt that it weighs more,  but most wear head and chest, whereas wearing head and chest of plate I would imagine would be much clunkier,  not necessarily heavier, but I could see it being clunky.

    Yeah, but that is still wrong. The plate the conquistadors were using as an example were both lighter and less bulky than a basic viking or saxon Chainmail.

    But you are right about the head. The chain coif is lighter than a helmet but if offers a rather pathetic protection.

  • maskedweaselmaskedweasel houston, TXPosts: 7,277Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Loke666

    Originally posted by maskedweasel

    All I can say, when I go to the ren fest I think the big difference is, most people wearing chain - they kind of can choose about where they can wear it (though, lets face it,  its not all historically accurate, and that may be where the misconceptions come from).  Full chain mail?  I have no doubt that it weighs more,  but most wear head and chest, whereas wearing head and chest of plate I would imagine would be much clunkier,  not necessarily heavier, but I could see it being clunky.

    Yeah, but that is still wrong. The plate the conquistadors were using as an example were both lighter and less bulky than a basic viking or saxon Chainmail.

    But you are right about the head. The chain coif is lighter than a helmet but if offers a rather pathetic protection.

    Well... not any less than the chainmail ... braziers

     

    "Loan me a Dragon I wanna see space"


    image

  • zymurgeistzymurgeist Pittsville, VAPosts: 5,215Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Leoghan

    Lamellar, especially in metal was not seen widely in places like England, France or Italy. It tends to be more associated with central or eastern Europe when talking about European armor. 

     Northern Europe. Sweden. It was quite common throughout history. It's much easier to make a series of overlapped plates from iron and attach them to a cloth or leather garment rather than an entire fitted breastplate. It was done with hardened leather and wood as well.

     

    Look up Visby and Birka. Yes vikings wore plate armor too.

    "Strong and bitter words indicate a weak cause" ~Victor Hugo

  • CeridithCeridith Toronto, ONPosts: 2,980Member

    Chainmail is better vs piercing weapons, where as platemail is better vs blunt force weapons. Both around about the same with regards to slashing weapons.

    Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't a lot of platemail wearers also wear a layer of chainmail underneath for the very fact that neither was entirely better than the other?

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