with guild wars 2 you have nothing to lose, if they don't develope much content after release then at least you don't pay for it every month, there are mmorpg's out there that charge players every month and don't add content at all(vanguard).
This isn't right for games that disappoint and you never touch again after the free month / first few months. In both case the $60 - $65 dollar box price has been a waste. So not exactly "nothing to lose"
I pay the same price for games that have less than 25hrs worth of content. If I get a MMORPG and only play through the first month I've probably still gotten my moneys worth by comparison.
The model seemed to work for GW1 so I don't see an issue with it in GW2. The biggest problem I can see is if the development costs are significantly higher for GW2, then that will naturally mean that they will need to generate more profits on box sales than GW1. I'm sure they have factored in all the variables and must be pretty confident, otherwise they would have picked a different model.
Looking at the size and scope of GW2 it is quite obvious that dvelopment cost is bigger than GW and will be more expensive to maintain servers. So i won't be surprised if item shop is more fleshed out and prices are not same as GW. I personally want item shops to offer loads of stuff.GW item shop is very limited.
My youngest grandson saw his first rotary dial phone not to long ago and asked "What's that thing?" and was told it was a phone. He shook his head no and said "That's not a phone". ))
No need to be alarmed, you don't need subscriptions to make money with a game. That's in part why Guild Wars is so popular.
You don't need to make money with subs but you do not need to make money in some form whether it is item shop or expansions or dlc. And usually games with no sub fee turn out to be more expensive than say montly sub.
They make their money in other ways, with add ons/expansions. There's no gimmicks. You buy it play it and that's it until you want an expansion. And an expansion is pretty beefy.
My youngest grandson saw his first rotary dial phone not to long ago and asked "What's that thing?" and was told it was a phone. He shook his head no and said "That's not a phone". ))
No need to be alarmed, you don't need subscriptions to make money with a game. That's in part why Guild Wars is so popular.
You don't need to make money with subs but you do not need to make money in some form whether it is item shop or expansions or dlc. And usually games with no sub fee turn out to be more expensive than say montly sub.
They make their money in other ways, with add ons/expansions. There's no gimmicks. You buy it play it and that's it until you want an expansion. And an expansion is pretty beefy.
You are forgetting item shop. Though limited in items, GW's item shop was great to generate money. Remember people are working for ANET just like you and i do and expect salary cheque every last date of the month. Gotto keep generating the revenue even when expansions and add ons stop.
with guild wars 2 you have nothing to lose, if they don't develope much content after release then at least you don't pay for it every month, there are mmorpg's out there that charge players every month and don't add content at all(vanguard).
This isn't right for games that disappoint and you never touch again after the free month / first few months. In both case the $60 - $65 dollar box price has been a waste. So not exactly "nothing to lose"
well you can play it anytime you want and don't have to worry about a subscription running out.
I prefer subscription model and not having vanity item shop (yes I don't like even vanity item shop , combat is not everything that is important in a mmorpg for me).
Though I am willing to try GW2 , and I hope it will not be like f.e. Lotro where Turbine said that shop is 'convenience only" and it turned out diffrently and it is getting worse
The model seemed to work for GW1 so I don't see an issue with it in GW2. The biggest problem I can see is if the development costs are significantly higher for GW2, then that will naturally mean that they will need to generate more profits on box sales than GW1. I'm sure they have factored in all the variables and must be pretty confident, otherwise they would have picked a different model.
Looking at the size and scope of GW2 it is quite obvious that dvelopment cost is bigger than GW and will be more expensive to maintain servers. So i won't be surprised if item shop is more fleshed out and prices are not same as GW. I personally want item shops to offer loads of stuff.GW item shop is very limited.
I agree, the cost is clearly greater for GW2. My only contention was that they will have factored it in their cost model and I'm sure the item mall will be more extensive than that of GW1. Plus, I'm sure that they have 1 or 2 expansions in development to keep the money flowing.
You don't need to make money with subs but you do not need to make money in some form whether it is item shop or expansions or dlc. And usually games with no sub fee turn out to be more expensive than say montly sub.
I like how you underlined usually! Although it would be more accurate to say sometimes it is more expensive when the person playing has no control of their spending habits and generally in life spends money like it is going out of style. Because if you can control yourself Buy to play games are way cheaper for the consumer than subscription based games. In fact if you look at my previous posts you will see a comparison between LOTRO freemium and WoW subscription expenses based over a couple years. Needless to say WoW costs a consumer, which knows how to control their expenses, way more than the Freemium or Buy to play model.
So saying “usually” is about as accurate per individual as horoscopes are!
Originally posted by Supersoups
Looking at the size and scope of GW2 it is quite obvious that dvelopment cost is bigger than GW and will be more expensive to maintain servers. So i won't be surprised if item shop is more fleshed out and prices are not same as GW. I personally want item shops to offer loads of stuff.GW item shop is very limited.
The fact that servers and bandwidth are cheaper than when GW1 was made apparently has no affect then? The item shop needs to stay cosmetic just like GW1 or ANet is going to have a lot of pissed off GW1 fans that will leave the game. There already was a pretty big incident when the fans thought dungeons were going to be part of the store, since then ANet has always said they might be if the fans want it. The fact that the fans were pissed about the possibility says that certain things will cost ANet profit if they add it to the store.
You don't need to make money with subs but you do not need to make money in some form whether it is item shop or expansions or dlc. And usually games with no sub fee turn out to be more expensive than say montly sub.
I like how you underlined usually! Although it would be more accurate to say sometimes it is more expensive when the person playing has no control of their spending habits and generally in life spends money like it is going out of style. Because if you can control yourself Buy to play games are way cheaper for the consumer than subscription based games. In fact if you look at my previous posts you will see a comparison between LOTRO freemium and WoW subscription expenses based over a couple years. Needless to say WoW costs a consumer, which knows how to control their expenses, way more than the Freemium or Buy to play model.
So saying “usually” is about as accurate per individual as horoscopes are!
Originally posted by Supersoups
Looking at the size and scope of GW2 it is quite obvious that dvelopment cost is bigger than GW and will be more expensive to maintain servers. So i won't be surprised if item shop is more fleshed out and prices are not same as GW. I personally want item shops to offer loads of stuff.GW item shop is very limited.
The fact that servers and bandwidth are cheaper than when GW1 was made apparently has no affect then? The item shop needs to stay cosmetic just like GW1 or ANet is going to have a lot of pissed off GW1 fans that will leave the game. There already was a pretty big incident when the fans thought dungeons were going to be part of the store, since then ANet has always said they might be if the fans want it. The fact that the fans were pissed about the possibility says that certain things will cost ANet profit if they add it to the store.
well at least i wont have to pay for content i don't want, like if a game adds a raid and you don't like raiding yet you pay 15 a month, so really you're getting nothing back for money spent.
I prefer subscription model and not having vanity item shop (yes I don't like even vanity item shop , combat is not everything that is important in a mmorpg for me).
Though I am willing to try GW2 , and I hope it will not be like f.e. Lotro where Turbine said that shop is 'convenience only" and it turned out diffrently and it is getting worse
Keep in mind that the situations are quite different. LoTRO was a game that was going under and went F2P to save themselves. That's entirely differently from a company like ArenaNet (who has been very successful with their B2P model in the past) releasing a game B2P from the start. There really is no reason at all for ArenaNet to change their policy on the microtransactions...it has worked. I doubt that LoTRO ever really had a set policy...they are just making it up as they go along.
Also, ArenaNet is all about fostering and maintaining community...and I think the community would go into full head-exploding revolt if they started offering pay-to-win in their cash shop.
I'm also someone who would rather there were no microtransactions at all...but considering ArenaNet's careful policy and the fact that it seems most things in the cash shop will also be available through playing the game, I can live with it.
You don't need to make money with subs but you do not need to make money in some form whether it is item shop or expansions or dlc. And usually games with no sub fee turn out to be more expensive than say montly sub.
I like how you underlined usually! Although it would be more accurate to say sometimes it is more expensive when the person playing has no control of their spending habits and generally in life spends money like it is going out of style. Because if you can control yourself Buy to play games are way cheaper for the consumer than subscription based games. In fact if you look at my previous posts you will see a comparison between LOTRO freemium and WoW subscription expenses based over a couple years. Needless to say WoW costs a consumer, which knows how to control their expenses, way more than the Freemium or Buy to play model.
So saying “usually” is about as accurate per individual as horoscopes are!
Originally posted by Supersoups
Looking at the size and scope of GW2 it is quite obvious that dvelopment cost is bigger than GW and will be more expensive to maintain servers. So i won't be surprised if item shop is more fleshed out and prices are not same as GW. I personally want item shops to offer loads of stuff.GW item shop is very limited.
The fact that servers and bandwidth are cheaper than when GW1 was made apparently has no affect then? The item shop needs to stay cosmetic just like GW1 or ANet is going to have a lot of pissed off GW1 fans that will leave the game. There already was a pretty big incident when the fans thought dungeons were going to be part of the store, since then ANet has always said they might be if the fans want it. The fact that the fans were pissed about the possibility says that certain things will cost ANet profit if they add it to the store.
Servers and bandwith might be cheaper but i am sure devs do not work on same salaries like they did 5 or 6 years ago. The development costs have gone up and GW2 is bigger and much quality product compared to GW. Not to mention the size of team of GW2 is bigger too. Cost of servers was one of many examples and not the only one to factor the increased cost.
And the reason why i used word usually is because it differs from person to person and it is hard to tell who is going to spend how much money on item shops.
For those of you who haven't played one of the better F2P / store games, you may be highly underestimating how much money the stores generate. People go crazy for cosmetic items and things like mounts. In LOTRO personally have about six mounts, and started to collect them, for example, and that is only one area of the store I have shopped. I have purchased pets for my Loremaster, special edition backpacks, clothing, dyes, etc. In GW1, I purchased their enhanced sound pack, and additional character slots and I freaking still love it to this day. It was very cool to add that to the game and change things up. In fact, if I had one complaint about the GW1 store, it would be that there was not enough cosmetic gear in there to buy back when I was actively playing it.
If they make the shop interesting, and make sure the items are cosmetic/low impact on the game, then people WILL buy things there constantly. I know many of you will sit back and think "who the hell buys that stuff", but the fact is that many, many people do. In fact, world wide, the 'virtual goods' market is growing exponentially every single year, and it will continue to do so. Facebook games/apps are making insane amounts of money on this model. Games like LOTRO are banking on it and doing quite well. In fact, LOTRO was in danger until they went F2P, and as you all know, they now have a large Isengard expansion coming out soon.
A smart game studio should know this by now, and I think we are likely heading toward a time when all of these games will be F2P. People are much more willing to spend money in shops if they have no subscription, and many people will end up spending more over the course of a year than someone who just pays a sub. They are also more likely to simply get more players signed up if the game has a good F2P model, and the increased populations numbers will help sell more items in the store
A sure sign that you are in an old, dying paradigm/mindset, is when you are scared of new ideas and new technology. Don't feel bad. The world is moving on without you, and you are welcome to yell "Get Off My Lawn!" all you want while it happens. You cannot, however, stop an idea whose time has come.
For those of you who haven't played one of the better F2P / store games, you may be highly underestimating how much money the stores generate. People go crazy for cosmetic items and things like mounts. In LOTRO personally have about six mounts, and started to collect them, for example, and that is only one area of the store I have shopped. I have purchased pets for my Loremaster, special edition backpacks, clothing, dyes, etc. In GW1, I purchased their enhanced sound pack, and additional character slots and I freaking still love it to this day. It was very cool to add that to the game and change things up. In fact, if I had one complaint about the GW1 store, it would be that there was not enough cosmetic gear in there to buy back when I was actively playing it.
If they make the shop interesting, and make sure the items are cosmetic/low impact on the game, then people WILL buy things there constantly. I know many of you will sit back and think "who the hell buys that stuff", but the fact is that many, many people do. In fact, world wide, the 'virtual goods' market is growing exponentially every single year, and it will continue to do so. Facebook games/apps are making insane amounts of money on this model. Games like LOTRO are banking on it and doing quite well. In fact, LOTRO was in danger until they went F2P, and as you all know, they now have a large Isengard expansion coming out soon.
A smart game studio should know this by now, and I think we are likely heading toward a time when all of these games will be F2P. People are much more willing to spend money in shops if they have no subscription, and many people will end up spending more over the course of a year than someone who just pays a sub. They are also more likely to simply get more players signed up if the game has a good F2P model, and the increased populations numbers will help sell more items in the store
Exactly my point. GW2 will make most of the money from item shop in comparison to dlc and expansions. So i am really hopping for bigger and better item shop in GW2. I don't mind spending money to make my character look sexy
A smart game studio should know this by now, and I think we are likely heading toward a time when all of these games will be F2P. People are much more willing to spend money in shops if they have no subscription, and many people will end up spending more over the course of a year than someone who just pays a sub. They are also more likely to simply get more players signed up if the game has a good F2P model, and the increased populations numbers will help sell more items in the store
As long as the items are cosmetic in the store I do not have a problem with it at all. In GW1 I bought the bonus mission pack, 3 character slots, bank upgrade, pet unlock pack, 5 skill packs (Core, Prophecies, Factions, Nightfall, Eye of the North), makeover pack, Mercenary Hero Complete pack, and 5 outfits over the last 4 years (of course with the game purchase). I can honestly say I have spent less on GW1 in that 4 year time period than I would have spent on WoW during that same 4 year period.
As long as GW2 has the same feeling that I am getting my money’s worth then I will spend money in the shop. Because I know that I could be spending $705 on just the subscription for WoW without factoring in buying expansion. So paying ANet a few hundred in 4 years compared to what I would of paid Blizzard is a great deal to me.
Originally posted by vtravi I know lots of people love this, it makes me a little concerned. I like the idea of devs having to come out with a constant stream of content to keep people playing. I feel like with this system once they sell you the game they have no incentive to keep you playing. Just a thought.
I am. Sorry for only reading the first page, but most people only quote dev talk (same with SW:ToR).
To the people who do this: You use reasons from people who want to sell you a product.
To the people who still do it: your product deserves this.
To be fair, with Buy2Play there is some sort of income, including some lovewash for NCSoft. PvP or WvWvW (where is it?) can last for a while. I´d be interested though, who of the loudmouths bought anything of the clothes in GW1 cash shop? I myself bought the wedding dress (posted screenshot somewhere here on MMORPG.com).
Many voices say the Eldergame in GW1 is balanced, though I don´t know why at any Event tons of Assassins gather in some Lobbyrooms.
I was worried when it was first announced, but I'm not any longer.
When Guild Wars came out, there wasn't much of anything you could buy in the NCSoft store, I'm not even sure if there was a store at launch. The B2P model worked fine. With later expansions, they added the ability to buy Character Slots, Name Changes and Cosmetic Makeovers. I don't think it was until Nightfall that they started to sell the skill unlock packs and most of the remainder of items currently in the NCSoft Store didn't appear until the final expansion, Eye of the North, or later, once they had decided to stop making GW1 expansions and focus on GW2.
It's sort of a shame that they didn't have a team still working on GW1 Expansions, but I don't think they understood the scope of GW2 or anticipated it would take as long as it has to produce. I don't think they will ever make that mistake agian and if there is ever a GW3, I'm sure that GW2 will continue to receive expansions well after they start working on another title.
ANet is also going to be more aggressive with the Cash Store for GW2. We know for sure there will be tons of cosmetic items available in the store. What else will be there is up in the air and ANet isn't really sure yet, other than their commitment not to split the community (they will not sell PVP Arenas in the store, for example), nor do they want to put items in the store that have much impact on your strength in the game. They definitely will never sell things you have to buy to succeed and no "pay to win" items.
I've noticed some uncertainty on the middle ground, though. No PVP Arenas, but there was an interview from Gamescom that hinted they were cautiously considering selling some Dungeons in the Store. I'll stress cautiously, because I think they aren't sure if that's something they really want to do and I also don't think they would do it if the idea caused a negative backlash in the community. There have also been some hints that there could be peripheral adventure packs that could add some side areas to the game that wouldn't be necassary for experiencing the main storyline and world setting. I get the impression they have the same concerns over that as they do over Dungeons, but I'm not really sure how the community would feel about it.
I'd support some optional content as long as not having it isn't disruptive and the cost for the amount of content was reasonable. As an example, maybe they could sell a content pack to an island with it's own Event Chains and story content that you travel to via a portal, ship or air ship. Players with out it wouldn't bump into some invisible wall some where they can't pass with out buying the content, nor run accross Event Chains in the world they had to buy to partake in, so there would be no disruption to their ability to experience the world, just because they didn't buy the optional content.
Now, sure, you could have a situation were some friends want to gather to go do the premium content and you will either have to buy it or pass on the opportunity, but is that really a huge problem? Sometimes your friends go do things you're not willing to shell out money to do. There will always be others things to do with them sometime in the future.
GW1 showed that B2P was viable, even with out much of a cash shop. GW2, even if they end up sticking just to cosmetic items, character slots, etc... will get a significant boost over a plain B2P model, which will keep revenue flowing even between expansions. There is room for more to be offered in the shop, but I'm sure they will be very mindful of what the community wants when deciding what to include. B2P with regular expansions is the primary business model and the cash shop is just an adjunct.
My youngest grandson saw his first rotary dial phone not to long ago and asked "What's that thing?" and was told it was a phone. He shook his head no and said "That's not a phone". ))
No need to be alarmed, you don't need subscriptions to make money with a game. That's in part why Guild Wars is so popular.
You don't need to make money with subs but you do not need to make money in some form whether it is item shop or expansions or dlc. And usually games with no sub fee turn out to be more expensive than say montly sub.
They make their money in other ways, with add ons/expansions. There's no gimmicks. You buy it play it and that's it until you want an expansion. And an expansion is pretty beefy.
You are forgetting item shop. Though limited in items, GW's item shop was great to generate money. Remember people are working for ANET just like you and i do and expect salary cheque every last date of the month. Gotto keep generating the revenue even when expansions and add ons stop.
Yep, there's an item shop, but I never used it. Never needed to. I don't even know what they offered. Heh. I think I played the platinum Eye of the North for a few years for one price $35 if I can remember right and it took a few years to finally get dated. But it's still fun.
In my opinion Guild Wars is one of the best buys on the market.
Originally posted by AKASlaphappy Instead of taking the time to write out something that would explain why a subscription is not mandatory I will just say watch this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ns-IIn-DG-c It explains everything you need to know.
Great video. Just ... fantastic.
"Gamers will no longer buy the argument that every MMO requires a subscription fee to offset server and bandwidth costs. It's not true you know it, and they know it." Jeff Strain, co-founder of ArenaNet, 2007
I'm anticipating that most companies will be watching events unfold on the relase of GW2 and the impact its going to have if any at all to there own MMO's.
I play Lotro presently and will be getting GW2, though I could play both games as there is no extra expence on subs, I shall be dropping Lotro to play GW2 and my my partner will be to. Why you ask? well with current financial crises, energy bills going up by as much as 18%, rent increases etc etc. This is a good way to save some money each month and still enjoy our free time gaming. Other f2p games out there you say !, but they cost more to play due to the way they have designed the games making it a requirement for you to buy items from the cash shop. Yes we could play Lotro free but then we got to play around the restrictions they put in place making the game not as an enjoyable experience.
GW2 is perfect for both of us, Some people are knocking it because they feel its a threat to there own game, i.e their friends will leave them, the community will get small with nobody left to play with, their game may become a victim of GW 2 success etc etc etc. but they are in a minority. 10 million people may buy GW2 initially, but 7 million might not like it after a couple of weeks, who knows? (them numbers were grasped fom the air before you start shooting me).
I think most people have hit the nail on the head with concerns about a no subscription model, previous f2p or (p2w) models just havnt cut it and have not really offered anything new or given anything better than whats been offered by triple a titles, buggy, cost more in the long run over subs and the graphics are terrible in most cases.
Video was brilliant and spot on, made me think about the ethics of all these companies creaming money of us.
Why should we be concerned? GW1 has what... 3? 4? expansions. Sure there might be less content overall than for example in WoW, but in all honesty, do you really _need_ to spend all your gaming time in the same MMO?
Run out of content to play? Fine, just play another game for a while and come back when there is more content available. There is no subscription to cancel when you don't feel like playing for a few months.
If anything, I think the no sub model should allow the game to focus more on quality instead of quantity - i.e. less grind.
I just recently stopped playing WoW again, since it just doesn't feel fun anymore, just grindy. I don't see a reason why I should pay 10€ per month (with 60 day gamecards if you're wondering) to feel bored most of the time. IMO it seems like most of our sub money is going straight into the company owners' pockets (or maybe in the development of Titan and D3) and not into the development of WoW.
I prefer subscription model and not having vanity item shop (yes I don't like even vanity item shop , combat is not everything that is important in a mmorpg for me).
Though I am willing to try GW2 , and I hope it will not be like f.e. Lotro where Turbine said that shop is 'convenience only" and it turned out diffrently and it is getting worse
waste 15$ a month in gw2 vanity shop them, will make your epeed grow 2 inches and you wont feel bad because you don't have a subscription
I just recently stopped playing WoW again, since it just doesn't feel fun anymore, just grindy. I don't see a reason why I should pay 10 per month (with 60 day gamecards if you're wondering) to feel bored most of the time. IMO it seems like most of our sub money is going straight into the company owners' pockets (or maybe in the development of Titan and D3) and not into the development of WoW.
60 day timecards are a big more expensive here, when I used to buy them was something like 27 for one, that is 13.5 month, that is 19 dollar or something. while monthly sub online is 10,20 and that is 14.50
Originally posted by UnsungToo
In my opinion Guild Wars is one of the best buys on the market.
I just bought all the GW campaigns and EotN exp for 40, while it feels like a lot, I also feel really overwhelmed by the whole game, since it feels like a lot to take in all at once
I prefer subscription model and not having vanity item shop (yes I don't like even vanity item shop , combat is not everything that is important in a mmorpg for me).
Though I am willing to try GW2 , and I hope it will not be like f.e. Lotro where Turbine said that shop is 'convenience only" and it turned out diffrently and it is getting worse
waste 15$ a month in gw2 vanity shop them, will make your epeed grow 2 inches and you wont feel bad because you don't have a subscription
Well, I might not put it that way, but yeah, I have a feeling $15 a month will buy a good amount of cosmetic items for a person over the course of a year, so if they like cosmetics and want to spend that money a month, there it is. Plus, there is a good chance a lot of that content just wouldn't be made with out revenue to pay for it, so we probably would have fewer cosmetic options available if the game was subscription based.
Looking at the size and scope of GW2 it is quite obvious that dvelopment cost is bigger than GW and will be more expensive to maintain servers. So i won't be surprised if item shop is more fleshed out and prices are not same as GW. I personally want item shops to offer loads of stuff.GW item shop is very limited.
Originally posted by AKASlaphappy
The fact that servers and bandwidth are cheaper than when GW1 was made apparently has no affect then? The item shop needs to stay cosmetic just like GW1 or ANet is going to have a lot of pissed off GW1 fans that will leave the game. There already was a pretty big incident when the fans thought dungeons were going to be part of the store, since then ANet has always said they might be if the fans want it. The fact that the fans were pissed about the possibility says that certain things will cost ANet profit if they add it to the store.
Servers and bandwith might be cheaper but i am sure devs do not work on same salaries like they did 5 or 6 years ago. The development costs have gone up and GW2 is bigger and much quality product compared to GW. Not to mention the size of team of GW2 is bigger too. Cost of servers was one of many examples and not the only one to factor the increased cost.
And the reason why i used word usually is because it differs from person to person and it is hard to tell who is going to spend how much money on item shops.
GW2 has a larger team than GW1, but there's also no way it doesn't also sell more copies due to being a AAA MMO instead of a small CORPG. The box might also be $60 instead of $50 to better offset development costs as well.
One thing to keep in mind is a notions of scale and proprtionality when it comes to servers. The more servers you need to support your playerbase, the more money there is from sales to support those servers.
As far as inherently costing more per player to run GW2 (or at least significantly more), I'm not sure that's the case. As was pointed out in the excellent video linked earlier on, we know that things like bandwidth are only small factors. Rent and people watching the servers are subject to economies of scale and would be comparatively cheaper the bigger the game. We also know from this Jeff Strain interview that it's not more expensive to run a persistent world than it is an instanced one.
Originally posted by Supersoups
Exactly my point. GW2 will make most of the money from item shop in comparison to dlc and expansions. So i am really hopping for bigger and better item shop in GW2. I don't mind spending money to make my character look sexy
I believe the majority of their money will come from content because that is what the majority of the playerbase is going to buy. They're not going to use the 6 month standalone model, but check out this graph.
The bumps at Q2'06, Q4'06 and Q3'07 correspond to Factions, Nightfall and EOTN (this is in millions of Korean Won, so 20000 = 18 or 19 million dollars). Like I said, if the content looks great for the price, everybody is going to buy it, whether it's expansions, DLC, whatever. There are people who really get into the shop, but there's also people like me who haven't bought anything. One of the major principles of the B2P model is that they give you everything you need to play the game. Only the hardcore players are going to need more character slots/bank tabs/etc than are initially provided.
"Gamers will no longer buy the argument that every MMO requires a subscription fee to offset server and bandwidth costs. It's not true you know it, and they know it."-Jeff Strain, co-founder of ArenaNet, 2007
im not particularly concerned about the B2P model, in terms of lack of regular subs, and as long as the cash shop only has vanity items in it.. i really don't have a problem with that.. like many others.. i only really consider cash shops to be a problem, and something of a game breaker, if the cash shop sells none vanity items.. if arenanet can pull that off successfully and turn it into a profitable venture.. then i think that would have far more impact on games in the future, than anything else
Comments
I pay the same price for games that have less than 25hrs worth of content. If I get a MMORPG and only play through the first month I've probably still gotten my moneys worth by comparison.
My theme song.
Looking at the size and scope of GW2 it is quite obvious that dvelopment cost is bigger than GW and will be more expensive to maintain servers. So i won't be surprised if item shop is more fleshed out and prices are not same as GW. I personally want item shops to offer loads of stuff.GW item shop is very limited.
They make their money in other ways, with add ons/expansions. There's no gimmicks. You buy it play it and that's it until you want an expansion. And an expansion is pretty beefy.
Godspeed my fellow gamer
You are forgetting item shop. Though limited in items, GW's item shop was great to generate money. Remember people are working for ANET just like you and i do and expect salary cheque every last date of the month. Gotto keep generating the revenue even when expansions and add ons stop.
well you can play it anytime you want and don't have to worry about a subscription running out.
I prefer subscription model and not having vanity item shop (yes I don't like even vanity item shop , combat is not everything that is important in a mmorpg for me).
Though I am willing to try GW2 , and I hope it will not be like f.e. Lotro where Turbine said that shop is 'convenience only" and it turned out diffrently and it is getting worse
I agree, the cost is clearly greater for GW2. My only contention was that they will have factored it in their cost model and I'm sure the item mall will be more extensive than that of GW1. Plus, I'm sure that they have 1 or 2 expansions in development to keep the money flowing.
I self identify as a monkey.
I like how you underlined usually! Although it would be more accurate to say sometimes it is more expensive when the person playing has no control of their spending habits and generally in life spends money like it is going out of style. Because if you can control yourself Buy to play games are way cheaper for the consumer than subscription based games. In fact if you look at my previous posts you will see a comparison between LOTRO freemium and WoW subscription expenses based over a couple years. Needless to say WoW costs a consumer, which knows how to control their expenses, way more than the Freemium or Buy to play model.
So saying “usually” is about as accurate per individual as horoscopes are!
The fact that servers and bandwidth are cheaper than when GW1 was made apparently has no affect then? The item shop needs to stay cosmetic just like GW1 or ANet is going to have a lot of pissed off GW1 fans that will leave the game. There already was a pretty big incident when the fans thought dungeons were going to be part of the store, since then ANet has always said they might be if the fans want it. The fact that the fans were pissed about the possibility says that certain things will cost ANet profit if they add it to the store.
well at least i wont have to pay for content i don't want, like if a game adds a raid and you don't like raiding yet you pay 15 a month, so really you're getting nothing back for money spent.
Keep in mind that the situations are quite different. LoTRO was a game that was going under and went F2P to save themselves. That's entirely differently from a company like ArenaNet (who has been very successful with their B2P model in the past) releasing a game B2P from the start. There really is no reason at all for ArenaNet to change their policy on the microtransactions...it has worked. I doubt that LoTRO ever really had a set policy...they are just making it up as they go along.
Also, ArenaNet is all about fostering and maintaining community...and I think the community would go into full head-exploding revolt if they started offering pay-to-win in their cash shop.
I'm also someone who would rather there were no microtransactions at all...but considering ArenaNet's careful policy and the fact that it seems most things in the cash shop will also be available through playing the game, I can live with it.
Servers and bandwith might be cheaper but i am sure devs do not work on same salaries like they did 5 or 6 years ago. The development costs have gone up and GW2 is bigger and much quality product compared to GW. Not to mention the size of team of GW2 is bigger too. Cost of servers was one of many examples and not the only one to factor the increased cost.
And the reason why i used word usually is because it differs from person to person and it is hard to tell who is going to spend how much money on item shops.
For those of you who haven't played one of the better F2P / store games, you may be highly underestimating how much money the stores generate. People go crazy for cosmetic items and things like mounts. In LOTRO personally have about six mounts, and started to collect them, for example, and that is only one area of the store I have shopped. I have purchased pets for my Loremaster, special edition backpacks, clothing, dyes, etc. In GW1, I purchased their enhanced sound pack, and additional character slots and I freaking still love it to this day. It was very cool to add that to the game and change things up. In fact, if I had one complaint about the GW1 store, it would be that there was not enough cosmetic gear in there to buy back when I was actively playing it.
If they make the shop interesting, and make sure the items are cosmetic/low impact on the game, then people WILL buy things there constantly. I know many of you will sit back and think "who the hell buys that stuff", but the fact is that many, many people do. In fact, world wide, the 'virtual goods' market is growing exponentially every single year, and it will continue to do so. Facebook games/apps are making insane amounts of money on this model. Games like LOTRO are banking on it and doing quite well. In fact, LOTRO was in danger until they went F2P, and as you all know, they now have a large Isengard expansion coming out soon.
A smart game studio should know this by now, and I think we are likely heading toward a time when all of these games will be F2P. People are much more willing to spend money in shops if they have no subscription, and many people will end up spending more over the course of a year than someone who just pays a sub. They are also more likely to simply get more players signed up if the game has a good F2P model, and the increased populations numbers will help sell more items in the store
A sure sign that you are in an old, dying paradigm/mindset, is when you are scared of new ideas and new technology. Don't feel bad. The world is moving on without you, and you are welcome to yell "Get Off My Lawn!" all you want while it happens. You cannot, however, stop an idea whose time has come.
Exactly my point. GW2 will make most of the money from item shop in comparison to dlc and expansions. So i am really hopping for bigger and better item shop in GW2. I don't mind spending money to make my character look sexy
As long as the items are cosmetic in the store I do not have a problem with it at all. In GW1 I bought the bonus mission pack, 3 character slots, bank upgrade, pet unlock pack, 5 skill packs (Core, Prophecies, Factions, Nightfall, Eye of the North), makeover pack, Mercenary Hero Complete pack, and 5 outfits over the last 4 years (of course with the game purchase). I can honestly say I have spent less on GW1 in that 4 year time period than I would have spent on WoW during that same 4 year period.
As long as GW2 has the same feeling that I am getting my money’s worth then I will spend money in the shop. Because I know that I could be spending $705 on just the subscription for WoW without factoring in buying expansion. So paying ANet a few hundred in 4 years compared to what I would of paid Blizzard is a great deal to me.
Sorry for only reading the first page, but most people only quote dev talk (same with SW:ToR).
To the people who do this: You use reasons from people who want to sell you a product.
To the people who still do it: your product deserves this.
To be fair, with Buy2Play there is some sort of income, including some lovewash for NCSoft. PvP or WvWvW (where is it?) can last for a while.
I´d be interested though, who of the loudmouths bought anything of the clothes in GW1 cash shop? I myself bought the wedding dress (posted screenshot somewhere here on MMORPG.com).
Many voices say the Eldergame in GW1 is balanced, though I don´t know why at any Event tons of Assassins gather in some Lobbyrooms.
I was worried when it was first announced, but I'm not any longer.
When Guild Wars came out, there wasn't much of anything you could buy in the NCSoft store, I'm not even sure if there was a store at launch. The B2P model worked fine. With later expansions, they added the ability to buy Character Slots, Name Changes and Cosmetic Makeovers. I don't think it was until Nightfall that they started to sell the skill unlock packs and most of the remainder of items currently in the NCSoft Store didn't appear until the final expansion, Eye of the North, or later, once they had decided to stop making GW1 expansions and focus on GW2.
It's sort of a shame that they didn't have a team still working on GW1 Expansions, but I don't think they understood the scope of GW2 or anticipated it would take as long as it has to produce. I don't think they will ever make that mistake agian and if there is ever a GW3, I'm sure that GW2 will continue to receive expansions well after they start working on another title.
ANet is also going to be more aggressive with the Cash Store for GW2. We know for sure there will be tons of cosmetic items available in the store. What else will be there is up in the air and ANet isn't really sure yet, other than their commitment not to split the community (they will not sell PVP Arenas in the store, for example), nor do they want to put items in the store that have much impact on your strength in the game. They definitely will never sell things you have to buy to succeed and no "pay to win" items.
I've noticed some uncertainty on the middle ground, though. No PVP Arenas, but there was an interview from Gamescom that hinted they were cautiously considering selling some Dungeons in the Store. I'll stress cautiously, because I think they aren't sure if that's something they really want to do and I also don't think they would do it if the idea caused a negative backlash in the community. There have also been some hints that there could be peripheral adventure packs that could add some side areas to the game that wouldn't be necassary for experiencing the main storyline and world setting. I get the impression they have the same concerns over that as they do over Dungeons, but I'm not really sure how the community would feel about it.
I'd support some optional content as long as not having it isn't disruptive and the cost for the amount of content was reasonable. As an example, maybe they could sell a content pack to an island with it's own Event Chains and story content that you travel to via a portal, ship or air ship. Players with out it wouldn't bump into some invisible wall some where they can't pass with out buying the content, nor run accross Event Chains in the world they had to buy to partake in, so there would be no disruption to their ability to experience the world, just because they didn't buy the optional content.
Now, sure, you could have a situation were some friends want to gather to go do the premium content and you will either have to buy it or pass on the opportunity, but is that really a huge problem? Sometimes your friends go do things you're not willing to shell out money to do. There will always be others things to do with them sometime in the future.
GW1 showed that B2P was viable, even with out much of a cash shop. GW2, even if they end up sticking just to cosmetic items, character slots, etc... will get a significant boost over a plain B2P model, which will keep revenue flowing even between expansions. There is room for more to be offered in the shop, but I'm sure they will be very mindful of what the community wants when deciding what to include. B2P with regular expansions is the primary business model and the cash shop is just an adjunct.
Want to know more about GW2 and why there is so much buzz? Start here: Guild Wars 2 Mass Info for the Uninitiated
Yep, there's an item shop, but I never used it. Never needed to. I don't even know what they offered. Heh. I think I played the platinum Eye of the North for a few years for one price $35 if I can remember right and it took a few years to finally get dated. But it's still fun.
In my opinion Guild Wars is one of the best buys on the market.
Godspeed my fellow gamer
Great video. Just ... fantastic.
"Gamers will no longer buy the argument that every MMO requires a subscription fee to offset server and bandwidth costs. It's not true you know it, and they know it." Jeff Strain, co-founder of ArenaNet, 2007
WTF? No subscription fee?
I'm anticipating that most companies will be watching events unfold on the relase of GW2 and the impact its going to have if any at all to there own MMO's.
I play Lotro presently and will be getting GW2, though I could play both games as there is no extra expence on subs, I shall be dropping Lotro to play GW2 and my my partner will be to. Why you ask? well with current financial crises, energy bills going up by as much as 18%, rent increases etc etc. This is a good way to save some money each month and still enjoy our free time gaming. Other f2p games out there you say !, but they cost more to play due to the way they have designed the games making it a requirement for you to buy items from the cash shop. Yes we could play Lotro free but then we got to play around the restrictions they put in place making the game not as an enjoyable experience.
GW2 is perfect for both of us, Some people are knocking it because they feel its a threat to there own game, i.e their friends will leave them, the community will get small with nobody left to play with, their game may become a victim of GW 2 success etc etc etc. but they are in a minority. 10 million people may buy GW2 initially, but 7 million might not like it after a couple of weeks, who knows? (them numbers were grasped fom the air before you start shooting me).
I think most people have hit the nail on the head with concerns about a no subscription model, previous f2p or (p2w) models just havnt cut it and have not really offered anything new or given anything better than whats been offered by triple a titles, buggy, cost more in the long run over subs and the graphics are terrible in most cases.
Video was brilliant and spot on, made me think about the ethics of all these companies creaming money of us.
Why should we be concerned? GW1 has what... 3? 4? expansions. Sure there might be less content overall than for example in WoW, but in all honesty, do you really _need_ to spend all your gaming time in the same MMO?
Run out of content to play? Fine, just play another game for a while and come back when there is more content available. There is no subscription to cancel when you don't feel like playing for a few months.
If anything, I think the no sub model should allow the game to focus more on quality instead of quantity - i.e. less grind.
I just recently stopped playing WoW again, since it just doesn't feel fun anymore, just grindy. I don't see a reason why I should pay 10€ per month (with 60 day gamecards if you're wondering) to feel bored most of the time. IMO it seems like most of our sub money is going straight into the company owners' pockets (or maybe in the development of Titan and D3) and not into the development of WoW.
waste 15$ a month in gw2 vanity shop them, will make your epeed grow 2 inches and you wont feel bad because you don't have a subscription
"I am not a robot. I am a unicorn."
I just bought all the GW campaigns and EotN exp for 40, while it feels like a lot, I also feel really overwhelmed by the whole game, since it feels like a lot to take in all at once
"I am not a robot. I am a unicorn."
Well, I might not put it that way, but yeah, I have a feeling $15 a month will buy a good amount of cosmetic items for a person over the course of a year, so if they like cosmetics and want to spend that money a month, there it is. Plus, there is a good chance a lot of that content just wouldn't be made with out revenue to pay for it, so we probably would have fewer cosmetic options available if the game was subscription based.
Want to know more about GW2 and why there is so much buzz? Start here: Guild Wars 2 Mass Info for the Uninitiated
GW2 has a larger team than GW1, but there's also no way it doesn't also sell more copies due to being a AAA MMO instead of a small CORPG. The box might also be $60 instead of $50 to better offset development costs as well.
One thing to keep in mind is a notions of scale and proprtionality when it comes to servers. The more servers you need to support your playerbase, the more money there is from sales to support those servers.
As far as inherently costing more per player to run GW2 (or at least significantly more), I'm not sure that's the case. As was pointed out in the excellent video linked earlier on, we know that things like bandwidth are only small factors. Rent and people watching the servers are subject to economies of scale and would be comparatively cheaper the bigger the game. We also know from this Jeff Strain interview that it's not more expensive to run a persistent world than it is an instanced one.
I believe the majority of their money will come from content because that is what the majority of the playerbase is going to buy. They're not going to use the 6 month standalone model, but check out this graph.
The bumps at Q2'06, Q4'06 and Q3'07 correspond to Factions, Nightfall and EOTN (this is in millions of Korean Won, so 20000 = 18 or 19 million dollars). Like I said, if the content looks great for the price, everybody is going to buy it, whether it's expansions, DLC, whatever. There are people who really get into the shop, but there's also people like me who haven't bought anything. One of the major principles of the B2P model is that they give you everything you need to play the game. Only the hardcore players are going to need more character slots/bank tabs/etc than are initially provided.
"Gamers will no longer buy the argument that every MMO requires a subscription fee to offset server and bandwidth costs. It's not true you know it, and they know it." -Jeff Strain, co-founder of ArenaNet, 2007
im not particularly concerned about the B2P model, in terms of lack of regular subs, and as long as the cash shop only has vanity items in it.. i really don't have a problem with that.. like many others.. i only really consider cash shops to be a problem, and something of a game breaker, if the cash shop sells none vanity items.. if arenanet can pull that off successfully and turn it into a profitable venture.. then i think that would have far more impact on games in the future, than anything else