Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

Doing things differently. (compiled list of what SW:TOR does differently to the standard MMOs)

1235

Comments

  • SpallieroSpalliero Member Posts: 147

    Originally posted by whilan

    Okay I see the comment a lot, and i don't mean just here. But i see it a lot that people will state that the game isn't doing anything differently from the standard MMO, and i'm going to try and make a list of everything the game is doing differently so people can see as it may not be entirely apparent at first sight. Note this isn't about innovation so just becuase a feature i'm listing is in some remote MMO doesn't mean it doesn't belong on this list. Note things like auto attack and fast cooldowns don't meet this list because quite a few MMOs do this.

    I"m going to split this up in sections.

    Combat: The big one,mind as well start here. 

    Duck and cover: yes two classes get this but it's still a new way to do combat.  How it works is that you select an enemy then hit the duck and cover button to roll behind cover. While you are behind cover (provided the cover is high enough) the enemy will basically hit the cover instead of you causing you to take no damage. But if you come out of cover to say...take a shot at the enemy, you are at risk of getting hit yourself. This provides a different way of combat from the straight up tank, the blasting of a mage or the use of invis to get behind the target. Think cops and robbers type thing.

    CC immunity bar

    If you continue to get hit by CCs either by other players or NPCs you will become immune which is different from other games where the CC immunity is more basd on stats and if you are not skilled in resisting the stat that the enemy is using there is a good chance (especially with players) that you can be locked down becoming completely ineffective.

    Heavy use of pets

    Most MMos tend to have one or two pet classes here everyone is, and they are highly customizable from anywhere from looks to AI control to types to being able to equip them to the same complexity as your main character. Thus spliting your character into two seperate parts.

    Lets move on to crafting

    Companions are involved in crafting. Their abilities tell who is better at crafting certain items better then others thus providing a bit more complexity to crafting then normal. Most games have the character actually crafting. Some are more complex but in most cases the game requires you to gather mats, the blueprint then hit craft and voila you have the mats. Rarer is when their is a timer on said item allowing for a more realistic crafting time as it takes time to put things together.

    Timer

    This is a differnet way to go about crafting, it's been done before but not often enough to feel stale or done to death so it sort of fits.  Crafting takes time (as i outlined above) to do. If you gather the mats and the blueprints. When you hit craft you have a timer until the item is complete. THe player doesn't really have any control over the item but it's a middle road between player control and just hitting the craft button and getting the item. Think Fallen earth here.

    Crits

    While not completely new, it's different from most MMOs i've seen where you either get the item or you don't. Here appearntly you can get a better version of the weapon. (this one is debatable on the list, so far 3 MMOs have been listed)

    Lets move on to character customization, this one i'm going to have to split into parts because theres a good bit here.

    Light and dark allignment

    Your allignment has a few effects on character customization. Note this is as far as i know purely cosmetic so it doesn't change how well your character does.

    Light/dark allignment changes your skills: this gives your character a more defined look as your skills change as you slide up and down the allignment changes.

    Armor dependant on your alignment: some armor is dependant on your allignment, such as some armor requires a certain ranking of light/dark to equip

    Your face for force users changes based on your allignment allowing for a different look for your charcther if your really dark sided your face distorts and looks...well evil.

    NPCs react to your dark and light allignment

    Some dialog options close off based on your allignment

    Equipment customization.

    Equipment is based more solely on what mods you have in your weapon and armor rather then the equipment itself, equipment more solely bases on how many mods are allowed in said equipment that will then depict your stats from there.

    The mods you have in your weapon/armor depict your weapons sound and color (ala lightsaber colors or blaster fire)

    These two basically (assuming you can take mods in and out at will) allow for you to make any weapon you want provided you have the original, even take a low level weapon and armor such as if you like the brown robe from level 1, you could improve it to the stat where you can use that same brown robe for end-game.

    Questing

    This is probably the biggest change and departure and where all the focus/innovation is coming in.

    Voice over, as much as people might like to try and deny or say it's a passing phase theres a differnece between just text and voice acting.  Most games have some voice acting and some not, but no game has the level of voice acting this game does.  Thus it's a very big depature on how they do quests.

    Interaction with npcs, such as talking back and forth with them, even being able to hit them.

    Choices in quests allowing you to take different versions of the quest which result in different experiences when you play out the quest, and even different rewards. Most MMOs have you simply doing a quest for said reward, however here what you do in the actual quest when taking progressing and turning in change how the quest ends and what rewards you get.

    Pursasion is an optino in questing, allowing you to attempt to get the upper hand by using a stat you invested in to get better rewards that might not be available to one who doesn't.

    multiplayer dialog, to my knowledge this is an innovation but people are free to correct me if they've run into this before. But allowing a person to affect someone elses quest via dialog seems a pretty big depature from how normal MMOs do it where you can either do the quest and complete your own or help someone else do theres but the interaction stops when they go to turn in the quest, not so here, group interaction is not only allowed but encouraged as you get rewarded for doing group dialog and interacting in others quests.

    Hologram system

    This allows you to not only turn in quests remotely but allows you to join in others peoples quest even if your not close but are still on the same planet. Far as i know the way this is implemented with being able to make decisions in others peoples quests without having to actually be there hasn't been done before.

    Companions

    Being able to influence your companion from light to dark or dark to light

    Influences your crafting abilities.

    Getting quests from your companions if you talk to them enough.

    Companions are able to go from loving you to betraying you even to crying in your ship if you are a total jerk to them.

     

    Dungeons (aka flashpoints)

    Changing dungeons based on choices in the dungeons

    Players can get access to alternate paths and different bosses if they of the right class

    Different loot at the end of flashpoints based on the decisions made in the flashpoint

     

    PvP

    As mentioned above there is a CC immunity bar that everyone must be aware of and it's visable which gives for a more tatic route. Also this keeps players from being stun locked by another class merely because they lack the resistance to overcome said CC.

    Warriors and healers can actually preform the desired role they want in PvP they did in PvE as they get rewarded for doing said role.

    Warrior taunt works in PvP by making it undesirable for people to attack others besides the tank as their damage is severaly reduced.

     

    Exploration

    Exploration in this game give you several rewards including,

    Datacrons (which give permanent stat boosts): This isn't normal as i think only one other game did this and it was more of a grind thing where as these are more of a reward for exploration

    options for dialog with your companions: Again this is tied in with the companion but getting to certain exploration areas can give you new oppertunities for dialog with your npcs as they comment on the areas

    codex entries: Your lore background

     

    Misc

    We finally get to the misc category which is basically everything i didn't feel fit into th other categories or wasn't enough to warrent a whole new category

    Codex entries: This is where you get all your lore from anytime you run into some you can easily look back at this codex to get a refresher, this can include anything from a temple to a boss to companions or items which tend to be quite descriptive.

    No loading for instances: When you do eventually enter a instance in the game there is a green barrier which indicates an instance, this is completely instantanious and does not require loading, so you can go into your instance do what you want walk backwards walk forward enter someone elses instance, do their thing then back up and walk forward back into your instance all without ever hitting one loading screen...ever.

    Cheoregraphed combat: This one might be cosmetic but most games have you just swinging away as if you were swining at air. EQ2 was the biggest offender i've ever seen of this where you have literal gap where you can clearly see that not only are they not synced with each other but not even close but still hitting each other. In this game you can actually clash swords which makes things more beliveable.

     

    Obviously this list can be amended as new things that are done differently (not innovative, lets not confuse the term, just done differently from the norm aka the standard) then most other MMOs or it comes out that things on this list are a normal part of MMOs (hopefully i've done my research and that won't happen much)

     

    You are off your rockef if you think those haven't been done before or are already in use in most mmorpgs. I haven't seen inovation in ToR, nothing that I haven't done in a miriade of mmorpgs preceding it.

    In all fairness, I doubt there will be many mmorpgs that do it so polished from day one. Also there will be many many mmorpgs after ToR that copy the formulae too.

    Sic Luceat Lux

  • ignore_meignore_me Member, Newbie CommonPosts: 1,987

    dude, icon!

    Survivor of the great MMORPG Famine of 2011

  • trash656trash656 Member UncommonPosts: 361

    Originally posted by MMO.Maverick

    Originally posted by trash656

    I mean even as someone like you who is a big fan of Themeparks, you got to admit. They really have over-done the whole WoW forumula. Don't you think?

    Of course the WoW instigated, game-instead-of-world focus as design concept has been followed far too often, I've stated this many times and praised the diversity and variety in the upcoming MMO's. In fact, I've as often stated that in my opinion a themepark-sandbox hybrid approach is the healthiest design model for MMO's image

    That doesn't mean though that I've suddenly lost the ability to grasp the differences and improvements/changes from one MMORPG to another, whether it's a themepark MMO or sandbox or otherwise.

    Some people who've grown an allergy or aversion towards themepark MMO's or who've become jaded and burnt out by over exposure to (certain) MMO gameplay seemed to have lost the ability to acknowledge or recognise differences in their craving for something revolutionarily different from what they've grown to despise. I think that even if something isn't your type of game, you can still be able to discern the goods, the bads and the distinctions of each MMO. It only requires people to be objective and have an open mind, nothing more.

    I like the way you think MMO Maverick <333

  • SupersoupsSupersoups Member Posts: 1,004

    Originally posted by Spalliero

    You are off your rockef if you think those haven't been done before or are already in use in most mmorpgs. I haven't seen inovation in ToR, nothing that I haven't done in a miriade of mmorpgs preceding it.

    In all fairness, I doubt there will be many mmorpgs that do it so polished from day one. Also there will be many many mmorpgs after ToR that copy the formulae too.

    Reading is very important. He is talking about standard features that you see almost in every MMO. In comparison to standard MMOS yes TOR is doing quite a lot of things differently. Everything has been used before in some online or offline game by that logic we should also not praise GW2 for doing things differently? all FPS look the same, strategy look the same...everything looks like something else.

    image

  • MMO.MaverickMMO.Maverick Member CommonPosts: 7,619

    Originally posted by trash656

    Originally posted by MMO.Maverick


    Originally posted by trash656

    I mean even as someone like you who is a big fan of Themeparks, you got to admit. They really have over-done the whole WoW forumula. Don't you think?

    Of course the WoW instigated, game-instead-of-world focus as design concept has been followed far too often, I've stated this many times and praised the diversity and variety in the upcoming MMO's. In fact, I've as often stated that in my opinion a themepark-sandbox hybrid approach is the healthiest design model for MMO's image

    That doesn't mean though that I've suddenly lost the ability to grasp the differences and improvements/changes from one MMORPG to another, whether it's a themepark MMO or sandbox or otherwise.

    Some people who've grown an allergy or aversion towards themepark MMO's or who've become jaded and burnt out by over exposure to (certain) MMO gameplay seemed to have lost the ability to acknowledge or recognise differences in their craving for something revolutionarily different from what they've grown to despise. I think that even if something isn't your type of game, you can still be able to discern the goods, the bads and the distinctions of each MMO. It only requires people to be objective and have an open mind, nothing more.

    I like the way you think MMO Maverick <333

    Lol, only just saw this thread again. Thanks image

    The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's

    The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
    Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."

  • Xondar123Xondar123 Member CommonPosts: 2,543

    Fallen Earth has seamless instances that you don't need loading screens for. First game I ever saw those in.

    I also don't see a biggie on the list: Personal starships. I've never seen an MMO that uses a vehicle as your home base and as a method of transportation to other parts of the game world. Personal starships are fairly standard in single player games, two famous ones are the Ebon Hawk and the Normandy, both also from Bioware games, but it is a new concept for MMORPGs.

  • tkoreapertkoreaper Member UncommonPosts: 412

    All the spaceship is is a place between loading screens =/ ... It's false immersion.

  • Xondar123Xondar123 Member CommonPosts: 2,543

    Originally posted by observer

    Originally posted by RefMinor

    The most innovative thing about SW:TOR is the fact that Bioware have taken an MMORPG and turned it into a single player game, albeit allowing a few other RL people to join in each set piece.

    This is so true on so many levels.

    Completely untrue actuallyt. Well, I guess it's true if you know nothing about the game. The PvP TOR is offering on its own invalidates this point completely.

    Can we stop with the "THIS IS A SINGLE PLAYER GAME!" nonsense?

  • GMan3GMan3 Member CommonPosts: 2,127

    Originally posted by tkoreaper

    All the spaceship is is a place between loading screens =/ ... It's false immersion.

        False immersion?  You are making a pretty big stretch here.  BioWare takes something they can NOT avoid and finds a way to actually make it interesting instead of annoying.  That isn't "false immersion", it is genius.  The only people that would really try to detract from the concept, in my opinion, are people actively looking for a reason to hate a game and personally I'll never understand why anyone would try to do that to any game that.  Especially considering that 99.99% of them haven't even played it, so they are making an uninformed opinion based on absolutely nothing.

    "If half of what you tell me is a lie, how can I believe any of it?"

  • niteflynitefly Member Posts: 340

    To me TOR just feels like yet another stab at the "multiplayer" part of MMORPG. Why create a multiplayer game and go out of your way to make the player as little dependent on others as possible?

    Unless the world is interactive in such a way that the terrain, cities, NPCs and so on change based on the sum of all players' actions it simply becomes yet another "playing alongside" game.

    Why developers of MMORPGs are so scared of inter-player dependence is beyond me.

  • alkarionlogalkarionlog Member EpicPosts: 3,584

    Originally posted by whilan

     

    Obviously this list can be amended as new things that are done differently (not innovative, lets not confuse the term, just done differently from the norm aka the standard) then most other MMOs or it comes out that things on this list are a normal part of MMOs (hopefully i've done my research and that won't happen much)

     

    funny half of things on your list i'm sure I saw in several games over the years, hell even alignment was used on one really old game, and not they are not doing anything diferently unless you say hide/duck in a cover is diferently from hide, or stay behind a shield.

     

    so yeah, unless you started playing MMos with WoW or/and are too lazy to search, you know this game will bring nothing new to the table.

    FOR HONOR, FOR FREEDOM.... and for some money.
  • MMO.MaverickMMO.Maverick Member CommonPosts: 7,619

    Originally posted by alkarionlog

    funny half of things on your list i'm sure I saw in several games over the years, hell even alignment was used on one really old game, and not they are not doing anything diferently unless you say hide/duck in a cover is diferently from hide, or stay behind a shield.

     so yeah, unless you started playing MMos with WoW or/and are too lazy to search, you know this game will bring nothing new to the table.

    Meh, this again image

    I'm sure that literally everything in every new game, MMORPG or singleplayer game, has been done somewhere before, whether it's in some obscure, little known game or in a more rudimentary form.

    People are expecting innovations to be completely never-been-done before, revolutionarily new? Won't happen, unless there's some new technology that enables things that weren't possible before. Else you can bet your ass that a so called innovation has been done somewhere before, even if it was in a smaller or more rudimentary, more basic form.

     

    In short, as good as all innovation are merely evolution, not revolution, of existing gameplay mechanics. Some take a larger evolutionary step than other changes, but they're still no radically revolutionary new systems.

     

    That said, SWTOR introduces a number of things that are far from common and were rarely (if at all) seen before in other MMO's: Companions that don't help in combat as pets do, but that also can fill in an empty 4th slot in a group and contribute in quests and crafting and who'll respond differently based upon the choices you make, Crew Skills system, decisionbased branched questing that impact outcomes and follow up quests, cover system, and so on, see the rest of this thread for the various things.

    If someone says that those are all changes or differences that don't do it for them, ok, that I can understand: to someone who for example hates themepark MMO gameplay, all variations or distinctions in the features are moot because it's all garbage to him anyway, so of course he won't be able to discern the difference to in his eyes one piece of garbage and another piece of garbage.

    That doesn't mean he'll be right, though: there are quite some differences and distinctions to find by people who can be objective about it even when it's about games or features that they themselves don't like.

    The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's

    The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
    Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."

  • xKingdomxxKingdomx Member UncommonPosts: 1,541

    Originally posted by whilan

    Duck and cover: yes two classes get this but it's still a new way to do combat.  How it works is that you select an enemy then hit the duck and cover button to roll behind cover. While you are behind cover (provided the cover is high enough) the enemy will basically hit the cover instead of you causing you to take no damage. But if you come out of cover to say...take a shot at the enemy, you are at risk of getting hit yourself. This provides a different way of combat from the straight up tank, the blasting of a mage or the use of invis to get behind the target. Think cops and robbers type thing.

    I don't understand why this is class restricted, are Jedis so sort of species that unable to allow themselves to hide behind cover? I hope they can improve in this aspect, because from what I've seen so far, this cover system doesn't play greatly into combat, meaning it doesn't do much to actually deviate from the traditional combat.

     

    Heavy use of pets

    Most MMos tend to have one or two pet classes here everyone is, and they are highly customizable from anywhere from looks to AI control to types to being able to equip them to the same complexity as your main character. Thus spliting your character into two seperate parts.

    I'm not too familiar with the droid concept, so what functionality do they hol other than customisation and story-telling value?

     

    Questing

    This is probably the biggest change and departure and where all the focus/innovation is coming in.

    Voice over, as much as people might like to try and deny or say it's a passing phase theres a differnece between just text and voice acting.  Most games have some voice acting and some not, but no game has the level of voice acting this game does.  Thus it's a very big depature on how they do quests.

    DCUO's quest are actually all voice acted

    multiplayer dialog, to my knowledge this is an innovation but people are free to correct me if they've run into this before. But allowing a person to affect someone elses quest via dialog seems a pretty big depature from how normal MMOs do it where you can either do the quest and complete your own or help someone else do theres but the interaction stops when they go to turn in the quest, not so here, group interaction is not only allowed but encouraged as you get rewarded for doing group dialog and interacting in others quests.

    They don't 'make' the choice for you, because group dialogue is only when you are in flashpoint or in operations. The multiplayer dialogue simply sets the path for THAT flashpoint, you can always run it again for a different choice, and you will still get your alignment point based on the attempted choice you made.

    Hologram system

    This allows you to not only turn in quests remotely but allows you to join in others peoples quest even if your not close but are still on the same planet. Far as i know the way this is implemented with being able to make decisions in others peoples quests without having to actually be there hasn't been done before.

    Again, DCUO has actually done the whole "turn in quest remotely", and it was actually great, it makes the story flow forward, instead of having to constnatly run to different spots for almost no purpose other than handing in quest.

     

    Misc

    No loading for instances: When you do eventually enter a instance in the game there is a green barrier which indicates an instance, this is completely instantanious and does not require loading, so you can go into your instance do what you want walk backwards walk forward enter someone elses instance, do their thing then back up and walk forward back into your instance all without ever hitting one loading screen...ever.

    I've never heard of this? They probably play a cutscene as a loading screen substitute. Funny I've heard Blade and Soul have this feature instead.

    Cheoregraphed combat: This one might be cosmetic but most games have you just swinging away as if you were swining at air. EQ2 was the biggest offender i've ever seen of this where you have literal gap where you can clearly see that not only are they not synced with each other but not even close but still hitting each other. In this game you can actually clash swords which makes things more beliveable.

    The problem with this is that, with its traditional MMO style combat, where most people are actually focusing on the interface for cooldowns and the numberious amount of hotkey bars. They don't actually look at the combat, so maybe, just maybe, this won't change anything, since not many people are actually looking at it, a big flaw in what MMO combat does to games, interface grind.

     

     

    How much WoW could a WoWhater hate, if a WoWhater could hate WoW?
    As much WoW as a WoWhater would, if a WoWhater could hate WoW.

  • SanHorSanHor Member UncommonPosts: 336

    Originally posted by MMO.Maverick

    Originally posted by alkarionlog



    funny half of things on your list i'm sure I saw in several games over the years, hell even alignment was used on one really old game, and not they are not doing anything diferently unless you say hide/duck in a cover is diferently from hide, or stay behind a shield.

     so yeah, unless you started playing MMos with WoW or/and are too lazy to search, you know this game will bring nothing new to the table.

    Meh, this again image

    I'm sure that literally everything in every new game, MMORPG or singleplayer game, has been done somewhere before, whether it's in some obscure, little known game or in a more rudimentary form.

    People are expecting innovations to be completely never-been-done before, revolutionarily new? Won't happen, unless there's some new technology that enables things that weren't possible before. Else you can bet your ass that a so called innovation has been done somewhere before, even if it was in a smaller or more rudimentary, more basic form.

     

    In short, as good as all innovation are merely evolution, not revolution, of existing gameplay mechanics. Some take a larger evolutionary step than other changes, but they're still no radically revolutionary new systems.

     

    That said, SWTOR introduces a number of things that are far from common and were rarely (if at all) seen before in other MMO's: Companions that don't help in combat as pets do, but that also can fill in an empty 4th slot in a group and contribute in quests and crafting and who'll respond differently based upon the choices you make, Crew Skills system, decisionbased branched questing that impact outcomes and follow up quests, cover system, and so on, see the rest of this thread for the various things.

    If someone says that those are all changes or differences that don't do it for them, ok, that I can understand: to someone who for example hates themepark MMO gameplay, all variations or distinctions in the features are moot because it's all garbage to him anyway, so of course he won't be able to discern the difference to in his eyes one piece of garbage and another piece of garbage.

    That doesn't mean he'll be right, though: there are quite some differences and distinctions to find by people who can be objective about it even when it's about games or features that they themselves don't like.

    You are making a big deal out of nothing spectacular really and it happens when you're hyped about a game. We've all been there before. :)

     

  • MMO.MaverickMMO.Maverick Member CommonPosts: 7,619

    Originally posted by SanHor

    You are making a big deal out of nothing spectacular really and it happens when you're hyped about a game. We've all been there before. :)

    Lol. That's not it at all image Flawed arguments with faulty logic and lack of (or little) common sense or reason just make me frown and annoy me enough that I tend to reply on it when I see it.

    Since this is happening a lot in SWTOR threads on this site, you'll see me post in them a lot more than average.

     

    In short on topic: that something doesn't pass someone's personal acceptance threshold for innovation, doesn't mean that the differences and distinctions aren't there. For example, AoC uses tab based combat just as EQ 10 years ago did, but there's a whole different feel and mechanics to AoC's melee combat compared to EQ, even if someone who has completely burnt out and grown jaded with MMO's might say that nothing is different between those 2 MMO's regarding combat mechanics.

    The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's

    The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
    Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."

  • xKingdomxxKingdomx Member UncommonPosts: 1,541

    Originally posted by MMO.Maverick

    Originally posted by SanHor



    You are making a big deal out of nothing spectacular really and it happens when you're hyped about a game. We've all been there before. :)

    Lol. That's not it at all image Flawed arguments with faulty logic and lack of (or little) common sense or reason just make me frown and annoy me enough that I tend to reply on it when I see it.

    Since this is happening a lot in SWTOR threads on this site, you'll see me post in them a lot more than average.

     

    In short on topic: that something doesn't pass someone's personal acceptance threshold for innovation, doesn't mean that the differences and distinctions aren't there. For example, AoC uses tab based combat just as EQ 10 years ago did, but there's a whole different feel and mechanics to AoC's melee combat compared to EQ, even if someone who has completely burnt out and grown jaded with MMO's might say that nothing is different between those 2 MMO's regarding combat mechanics.

    Well I don't think thats flaw logic, sure, most 'innovation' has probably been done elsewhere, but the whole point is that all GOOD innovation are gathering into one game, 

    How much WoW could a WoWhater hate, if a WoWhater could hate WoW?
    As much WoW as a WoWhater would, if a WoWhater could hate WoW.

  • aesperusaesperus Member UncommonPosts: 5,135

    Originally posted by MMO.Maverick

    In short on topic: that something doesn't pass someone's personal acceptance threshold for innovation, doesn't mean that the differences and distinctions aren't there. For example, AoC uses tab based combat just as EQ 10 years ago did, but there's a whole different feel and mechanics to AoC's melee combat compared to EQ, even if someone who has completely burnt out and grown jaded with MMO's might say that nothing is different between those 2 MMO's regarding combat mechanics.

    Just gotta point out, I think I agree with what your saying, but you may want a better example. Tab targetting isn't innovative (not anymore at least), and it is not what sets a game like AoC away from a game like EQ.

    I do think TOR is doing some innovative things;  combining elements that (by themselves) may not be innovative, but as a whole you don't see in other MMOs, is innovative.

  • czekoskwigelczekoskwigel Member Posts: 458

    Originally posted by aesperus

    Originally posted by MMO.Maverick



    In short on topic: that something doesn't pass someone's personal acceptance threshold for innovation, doesn't mean that the differences and distinctions aren't there. For example, AoC uses tab based combat just as EQ 10 years ago did, but there's a whole different feel and mechanics to AoC's melee combat compared to EQ, even if someone who has completely burnt out and grown jaded with MMO's might say that nothing is different between those 2 MMO's regarding combat mechanics.

    Just gotta point out, I think I agree with what your saying, but you may want a better example. Tab targetting isn't innovative (not anymore at least), and it is not what sets a game like AoC away from a game like EQ.

    I do think TOR is doing some innovative things;  combining elements that (by themselves) may not be innovative, but as a whole you don't see in other MMOs, is innovative.

    TOR excites me... that in itself is innovative.

  • aesperusaesperus Member UncommonPosts: 5,135

    Originally posted by xKingdomx

    Well I don't think thats flaw logic, sure, most 'innovation' has probably been done elsewhere, but the whole point is that all GOOD innovation are gathering into one game, 

    That's not what innovation is:


    in·no·va·tionNoun/?in??v?SH?n/


    1. The action or process of innovating.

    2. A new method, idea, product, etc: "technological innovations".

    What makes something innovative (see #2) is that it hasn't been done before. The only real distinguishing factor between what's bad and good innovation is whether or not someone( or ones) feel that the change helps move that product / method / idea / etc. forwards or backwards in terms of progressive.

    Sorry for the double post.

  • whilanwhilan Member UncommonPosts: 3,472

    Originally posted by xKingdomx

    Originally posted by whilan

    Duck and cover: yes two classes get this but it's still a new way to do combat.  How it works is that you select an enemy then hit the duck and cover button to roll behind cover. While you are behind cover (provided the cover is high enough) the enemy will basically hit the cover instead of you causing you to take no damage. But if you come out of cover to say...take a shot at the enemy, you are at risk of getting hit yourself. This provides a different way of combat from the straight up tank, the blasting of a mage or the use of invis to get behind the target. Think cops and robbers type thing.

    I don't understand why this is class restricted, are Jedis so sort of species that unable to allow themselves to hide behind cover? I hope they can improve in this aspect, because from what I've seen so far, this cover system doesn't play greatly into combat, meaning it doesn't do much to actually deviate from the traditional combat.

    I think this is to give each class a different feel, as for the last part, i'm not sure how having to find physical cover (as you'll want this above the self produced one as it gives better defense by making it instead of getting a slice of damage as it passes through the sheild you can remove all damage) and having to time your attacks, keep in mind with no auto attack you can select an attack, so you'll want to time the attacks around your enemy, so that way when your firing your enemy is recharging or on cool down if you will for the next shot. as i stated above, if your behind sufficient cover the shot will actually hit the table and not you, saw this during TB run through of the game, meaning that you decide wether you get hit or not, meaning if you'd prefer not to get hit you only jump out of cover to attack when the enemy (ies) aren't attacking you at that moment. That is a very big difference from hitting an attack button and waiting for rolls as you only get hit when you jump out of cover, not when you fail to make a dodge check.

     

    Heavy use of pets

    Most MMos tend to have one or two pet classes here everyone is, and they are highly customizable from anywhere from looks to AI control to types to being able to equip them to the same complexity as your main character. Thus spliting your character into two seperate parts.

    I'm not too familiar with the droid concept, so what functionality do they hol other than customisation and story-telling value?

    customization of a pet is a pretty big thing, so your basically cutting out 3/4 of what any pet can do. Combat wise they will be identical to pets beyond the fact they can watch out for other party members while in a group, such as if they are a healer type they will attempt (with their AI) to keep the group alive, which may not always be you. One guy said that the AI of the pet did as follows, as a healer they used a regular heal on the most hurt guy but then throw a heal over time on him then went back to the guy tanking the mob and throw a normal heal on him again.

    Beyond that though i will dip into customization because it's quite extensive, first off you can almost completely customize their looks, you can change their hair style the color skin they have,  andwhat weapons and armors they hold. 

    In the tatics end they will have similar to tatics found in Dragon age origin allowing you to further customize the pets. Plus you can get kits which will change their role meaning that you can change them from say a healer to a tank or a Range DPS or whatever else the kits will allow.

     

     

    Questing

    This is probably the biggest change and departure and where all the focus/innovation is coming in.

    Voice over, as much as people might like to try and deny or say it's a passing phase theres a differnece between just text and voice acting.  Most games have some voice acting and some not, but no game has the level of voice acting this game does.  Thus it's a very big depature on how they do quests.

    DCUO's quest are actually all voice acted

    True but the amount of VO was kinda small and was really just an overview, the amount of VO is different, plus this falls under the one game does it, does not make it a standard.

    multiplayer dialog, to my knowledge this is an innovation but people are free to correct me if they've run into this before. But allowing a person to affect someone elses quest via dialog seems a pretty big depature from how normal MMOs do it where you can either do the quest and complete your own or help someone else do theres but the interaction stops when they go to turn in the quest, not so here, group interaction is not only allowed but encouraged as you get rewarded for doing group dialog and interacting in others quests.

    They don't 'make' the choice for you, because group dialogue is only when you are in flashpoint or in operations. The multiplayer dialogue simply sets the path for THAT flashpoint, you can always run it again for a different choice, and you will still get your alignment point based on the attempted choice you made.

    Multiplayer dialogue happens in solo quests, group quests, world arcs, and flashpoints, the only places multiplayer dialogue does not occur are in, raids, personal story (for obvious reasons) and bonus quests (becuase theres no npc to pick up from nor turn in to. it's all automatic) and PvP for again..obvious reasons, Flashpoints are repeatable, but solo quests, group quests, and world arcs are not.  So Multiplayer dialogue happens. it was specifically asked what happens if i'm on a quest and someone else makes a decision in that quest i didn't want. Bioware answers..well thats what happens when you interact with other people, things like that can happen.

    Hologram system

    This allows you to not only turn in quests remotely but allows you to join in others peoples quest even if your not close but are still on the same planet. Far as i know the way this is implemented with being able to make decisions in others peoples quests without having to actually be there hasn't been done before.

    Again, DCUO has actually done the whole "turn in quest remotely", and it was actually great, it makes the story flow forward, instead of having to constnatly run to different spots for almost no purpose other than handing in quest.

    Not quite the same way, lots of games let you turn in remotely, but they don't allow you to interact in someone elses quest remotely, just your own, plus theres one thing with just starting up the quest, theres quite another when you appear in front of the quest giver yourself. Your character techanically is in two places at once, at the qust giver by your player (in blue) and at where really are.

     

    Misc

    No loading for instances: When you do eventually enter a instance in the game there is a green barrier which indicates an instance, this is completely instantanious and does not require loading, so you can go into your instance do what you want walk backwards walk forward enter someone elses instance, do their thing then back up and walk forward back into your instance all without ever hitting one loading screen...ever.

    I've never heard of this? They probably play a cutscene as a loading screen substitute. Funny I've heard Blade and Soul have this feature instead.

    When you switch between planets and flashpoints you will either see a loading screen or a movie of your ship granted, what i'm talking about here is specifically the no loading green barriers, you can see this in one of the playthroughs i think in Pax East, they walk into an instance of a cave to talk to a sith and burn a banner. Thats an instance and you never loaded to go into it. I feel the majority of the instances will be this way. With the occasional loading for a flashpoint or such

    Cheoregraphed combat: This one might be cosmetic but most games have you just swinging away as if you were swining at air. EQ2 was the biggest offender i've ever seen of this where you have literal gap where you can clearly see that not only are they not synced with each other but not even close but still hitting each other. In this game you can actually clash swords which makes things more beliveable.

    The problem with this is that, with its traditional MMO style combat, where most people are actually focusing on the interface for cooldowns and the numberious amount of hotkey bars. They don't actually look at the combat, so maybe, just maybe, this won't change anything, since not many people are actually looking at it, a big flaw in what MMO combat does to games, interface grind.

    What people focus on is not the center of this, it's doing things differently. and i've not run into an MMO personally where the swords clash with each other and player characters moving their hands and weapons around to on purposely block a blaster bolt from behind.

     

     

    I saw this this morning and i didn't get a chance as i only had 3 mins to do anything in the morning and it wasn't enough time to devote to this reply.

    My responses will be in green below yours but i'm going to cover something here. First off these are deviations from the standards, stuff you find in nearly every game, things like classes, races, instant PvP, levels, abilities, gaining xp.  You know the things you find in nearly MMO when you think MMO you think this. Merely because one game has something doesn't mean it doens't belong on this list. It's why i didn't say about innovation. They are doing things in a different way. As i explained above.

    Help me Bioware, you're my only hope.

    Is ToR going to be good? Dude it's Bioware making a freaking star wars game, all signs point to awesome. -G4tv MMo report.

    image

  • xKingdomxxKingdomx Member UncommonPosts: 1,541

    Originally posted by aesperus

    Originally posted by xKingdomx



    Well I don't think thats flaw logic, sure, most 'innovation' has probably been done elsewhere, but the whole point is that all GOOD innovation are gathering into one game, 

    That's not what innovation is:


    in·no·va·tionNoun/?in??v?SH?n/


    1. The action or process of innovating.

    2. A new method, idea, product, etc: "technological innovations".

    What makes something innovative (see #2) is that it hasn't been done before. The only real distinguishing factor between what's bad and good innovation is whether or not someone( or ones) feel that the change helps move that product / method / idea / etc. forwards or backwards in terms of progressive.

    Sorry for the double post.

    Define: New

    New doesn't mean original, therefore it could have been done in some form beforehand. For example: there is a new MMORPG coming tomorrow, but is it new? Surely there is MMORPG beforehand. It is new before it is presented differently, how it is accompany with different aethetics and programming.

    An innovative idea is simply meaning taking an idea and use it in a better or new concept, it doesn't mean original, they are similar words, but not exactly the same. 

    So as I have said before, these features have probably been done before, but they are innovative in terms that they have never been grouped with other (possibly innovative) features before.

    How much WoW could a WoWhater hate, if a WoWhater could hate WoW?
    As much WoW as a WoWhater would, if a WoWhater could hate WoW.

  • xKingdomxxKingdomx Member UncommonPosts: 1,541

    Originally posted by whilan

    Originally posted by xKingdomx


    Originally posted by whilan

    Heavy use of pets

    Most MMos tend to have one or two pet classes here everyone is, and they are highly customizable from anywhere from looks to AI control to types to being able to equip them to the same complexity as your main character. Thus spliting your character into two seperate parts.

    I'm not too familiar with the droid concept, so what functionality do they hol other than customisation and story-telling value?

    customization of a pet is a pretty big thing, so your basically cutting out 3/4 of what any pet can do. Combat wise they will be identical to pets beyond the fact they can watch out for other party members while in a group, such as if they are a healer type they will attempt (with their AI) to keep the group alive, which may not always be you. One guy said that the AI of the pet did as follows, as a healer they used a regular heal on the most hurt guy but then throw a heal over time on him then went back to the guy tanking the mob and throw a normal heal on him again.

    Beyond that though i will dip into customization because it's quite extensive, first off you can almost completely customize their looks, you can change their hair style the color skin they have,  andwhat weapons and armors they hold. 

    In the tatics end they will have similar to tatics found in Dragon age origin allowing you to further customize the pets. Plus you can get kits which will change their role meaning that you can change them from say a healer to a tank or a Range DPS or whatever else the kits will allow.

     Are we talking about Companions here? Well lol because I never thought people would call them pets. I thought you were talking about the droids that follow you around.

     

    Questing

    multiplayer dialog, to my knowledge this is an innovation but people are free to correct me if they've run into this before. But allowing a person to affect someone elses quest via dialog seems a pretty big depature from how normal MMOs do it where you can either do the quest and complete your own or help someone else do theres but the interaction stops when they go to turn in the quest, not so here, group interaction is not only allowed but encouraged as you get rewarded for doing group dialog and interacting in others quests.

    They don't 'make' the choice for you, because group dialogue is only when you are in flashpoint or in operations. The multiplayer dialogue simply sets the path for THAT flashpoint, you can always run it again for a different choice, and you will still get your alignment point based on the attempted choice you made.

    Multiplayer dialogue happens in solo quests, group quests, world arcs, and flashpoints, the only places multiplayer dialogue does not occur are in, raids, personal story (for obvious reasons) and bonus quests (becuase theres no npc to pick up from nor turn in to. it's all automatic) and PvP for again..obvious reasons, Flashpoints are repeatable, but solo quests, group quests, and world arcs are not.  So Multiplayer dialogue happens. it was specifically asked what happens if i'm on a quest and someone else makes a decision in that quest i didn't want. Bioware answers..well thats what happens when you interact with other people, things like that can happen.

    How can you have multiplayer dialogue in solo quest? Aren't you suppose to solo? :P 

    Anyways, not trying to judge you here, but could you just provide an example of multiplayer dialogue outside flashpoints? I have never heard there were going to be multiplayer dialogue outside group instances. Also I specifically remember that Bioware said even tho one choice wil be made in flashpoints, you will still get light/dark side points for the dialogue option YOU choose, and you can repeat the instance to see what happen if other choices are selected.

     

    Misc

    No loading for instances: When you do eventually enter a instance in the game there is a green barrier which indicates an instance, this is completely instantanious and does not require loading, so you can go into your instance do what you want walk backwards walk forward enter someone elses instance, do their thing then back up and walk forward back into your instance all without ever hitting one loading screen...ever.

    I've never heard of this? They probably play a cutscene as a loading screen substitute. Funny I've heard Blade and Soul have this feature instead.

    When you switch between planets and flashpoints you will either see a loading screen or a movie of your ship granted, what i'm talking about here is specifically the no loading green barriers, you can see this in one of the playthroughs i think in Pax East, they walk into an instance of a cave to talk to a sith and burn a banner. Thats an instance and you never loaded to go into it. I feel the majority of the instances will be this way. With the occasional loading for a flashpoint or such

    Well we'll just have to play the game to see that.

    Cheoregraphed combat: This one might be cosmetic but most games have you just swinging away as if you were swining at air. EQ2 was the biggest offender i've ever seen of this where you have literal gap where you can clearly see that not only are they not synced with each other but not even close but still hitting each other. In this game you can actually clash swords which makes things more beliveable.

    The problem with this is that, with its traditional MMO style combat, where most people are actually focusing on the interface for cooldowns and the numberious amount of hotkey bars. They don't actually look at the combat, so maybe, just maybe, this won't change anything, since not many people are actually looking at it, a big flaw in what MMO combat does to games, interface grind.

    What people focus on is not the center of this, it's doing things differently. and i've not run into an MMO personally where the swords clash with each other and player characters moving their hands and weapons around to on purposely block a blaster bolt from behind.

     Well to me, doing something differently for the sake of it is pointless to me, I just hope they can design the skill system to make it so players will actually have to look at the ingame environment to play, instead of focusing on dishing out hte fastest rotation.

     

    My responses will be in green below yours but i'm going to cover something here. First off these are deviations from the standards, stuff you find in nearly every game, things like classes, races, instant PvP, levels, abilities, gaining xp.  You know the things you find in nearly MMO when you think MMO you think this. Merely because one game has something doesn't mean it doens't belong on this list. It's why i didn't say about innovation. They are doing things in a different way. As i explained above.

    Snip quite a bit of the text, was getting too long. Only kept the relevant quotes to reply with

    How much WoW could a WoWhater hate, if a WoWhater could hate WoW?
    As much WoW as a WoWhater would, if a WoWhater could hate WoW.

  • w4rbytezw4rbytez Member Posts: 17

    I like that everything they are doing is geared towards making the experience deeper, more believable, and realistic. Though I'm still eager to see what they plan on developing for the pvp community.

  • GMan3GMan3 Member CommonPosts: 2,127

    Originally posted by w4rbytez

    I like that everything they are doing is geared towards making the experience deeper, more believable, and realistic. Though I'm still eager to see what they plan on developing for the pvp community.

        I agree . . . with both statements.  I am not normally a PvP fan myself, but so far I like what I see and I can't wait to see more.

    "If half of what you tell me is a lie, how can I believe any of it?"

  • whilanwhilan Member UncommonPosts: 3,472

    Originally posted by xKingdomx

    Originally posted by whilan


    Originally posted by xKingdomx


    Originally posted by whilan

    Heavy use of pets

    Most MMos tend to have one or two pet classes here everyone is, and they are highly customizable from anywhere from looks to AI control to types to being able to equip them to the same complexity as your main character. Thus spliting your character into two seperate parts.

    I'm not too familiar with the droid concept, so what functionality do they hol other than customisation and story-telling value?

    customization of a pet is a pretty big thing, so your basically cutting out 3/4 of what any pet can do. Combat wise they will be identical to pets beyond the fact they can watch out for other party members while in a group, such as if they are a healer type they will attempt (with their AI) to keep the group alive, which may not always be you. One guy said that the AI of the pet did as follows, as a healer they used a regular heal on the most hurt guy but then throw a heal over time on him then went back to the guy tanking the mob and throw a normal heal on him again.

    Beyond that though i will dip into customization because it's quite extensive, first off you can almost completely customize their looks, you can change their hair style the color skin they have,  andwhat weapons and armors they hold. 

    In the tatics end they will have similar to tatics found in Dragon age origin allowing you to further customize the pets. Plus you can get kits which will change their role meaning that you can change them from say a healer to a tank or a Range DPS or whatever else the kits will allow.

     Are we talking about Companions here? Well lol because I never thought people would call them pets. I thought you were talking about the droids that follow you around.

    Well what you call driods some call companions and i for ease of use and reference called pets.  all three are really the same thing, just the reason people call it companions is becuase they are 1. Highly more customizable then pets. They react to what is going on in dialogue more then pets do. So they tend to be refered as companions such as you could call a car a bycicle but then it really wouldn't be doing it justice, true it has wheels and will get you there, just one has more features enough to warrant a name change. But companion <> driod <> Pets they are all the same thing really.

     

    Questing

    multiplayer dialog, to my knowledge this is an innovation but people are free to correct me if they've run into this before. But allowing a person to affect someone elses quest via dialog seems a pretty big depature from how normal MMOs do it where you can either do the quest and complete your own or help someone else do theres but the interaction stops when they go to turn in the quest, not so here, group interaction is not only allowed but encouraged as you get rewarded for doing group dialog and interacting in others quests.

    They don't 'make' the choice for you, because group dialogue is only when you are in flashpoint or in operations. The multiplayer dialogue simply sets the path for THAT flashpoint, you can always run it again for a different choice, and you will still get your alignment point based on the attempted choice you made.

    Multiplayer dialogue happens in solo quests, group quests, world arcs, and flashpoints, the only places multiplayer dialogue does not occur are in, raids, personal story (for obvious reasons) and bonus quests (becuase theres no npc to pick up from nor turn in to. it's all automatic) and PvP for again..obvious reasons, Flashpoints are repeatable, but solo quests, group quests, and world arcs are not.  So Multiplayer dialogue happens. it was specifically asked what happens if i'm on a quest and someone else makes a decision in that quest i didn't want. Bioware answers..well thats what happens when you interact with other people, things like that can happen.

    How can you have multiplayer dialogue in solo quest? Aren't you suppose to solo? :P 

    Anyways, not trying to judge you here, but could you just provide an example of multiplayer dialogue outside flashpoints? I have never heard there were going to be multiplayer dialogue outside group instances. Also I specifically remember that Bioware said even tho one choice wil be made in flashpoints, you will still get light/dark side points for the dialogue option YOU choose, and you can repeat the instance to see what happen if other choices are selected.

    Sure thing, heres a really good depicition of it that is somewhat recent, back at Pax East i believe, 

     

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6zTRZZefmvM

    At around 3:35 he says since the operative is on the same mission he invites her to a group this will make the mission easier for both of them.

    Then jump forward to aout 6:10 and you'll see the dialogue start, notice first the operative talks and is apparently going lightside while the sith (the primary controlled character by the dev) goes dark sided.

    Now wether this is a group or solo mission i don't know but it appears with the amount of mobs that it was intended for less people as two just basically bashed through it. 

    Some clarification on story choices: On your personal class story quests only your dialogue choices matter, even if grouped. Outside of Class Story instances, we have World Quests, Flashpoints and Heroic Quests. In those, if grouped, your choices will be dictated by the decision the group makes. - Bioware

    This quote is from the feature list. showing that the choices dicated by the group make the turns in the quest, true you get rewarded (as per the video i linked shows) for what your intention were, meaning that if you wanted to save the guy, you get lightsided points but because the guy who won the roll decided to kill him, hes still dead in your quest, you just got light sided points for what you wanted to have happen. I'll freely admit that i'm not entirely sure on if you can affect other peoples quests if you don't have them yourself but there is clear evidence that when you do and are on the same step that you can.

    Misc

    No loading for instances: When you do eventually enter a instance in the game there is a green barrier which indicates an instance, this is completely instantanious and does not require loading, so you can go into your instance do what you want walk backwards walk forward enter someone elses instance, do their thing then back up and walk forward back into your instance all without ever hitting one loading screen...ever.

    I've never heard of this? They probably play a cutscene as a loading screen substitute. Funny I've heard Blade and Soul have this feature instead.

    When you switch between planets and flashpoints you will either see a loading screen or a movie of your ship granted, what i'm talking about here is specifically the no loading green barriers, you can see this in one of the playthroughs i think in Pax East, they walk into an instance of a cave to talk to a sith and burn a banner. Thats an instance and you never loaded to go into it. I feel the majority of the instances will be this way. With the occasional loading for a flashpoint or such

    Well we'll just have to play the game to see that.

    We actually have a direct example of this sort of thing, i'll link the TB one as that one shows you unhindered.

    At about 3:52 you see the green barrier. That is what i'm talking about. He is in an instance of his own and jumps out of it into the main world, no loading, no stopping.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pxMbI30KKJ0&feature=relmfu 

     

    Cheoregraphed combat: This one might be cosmetic but most games have you just swinging away as if you were swining at air. EQ2 was the biggest offender i've ever seen of this where you have literal gap where you can clearly see that not only are they not synced with each other but not even close but still hitting each other. In this game you can actually clash swords which makes things more beliveable.

    The problem with this is that, with its traditional MMO style combat, where most people are actually focusing on the interface for cooldowns and the numberious amount of hotkey bars. They don't actually look at the combat, so maybe, just maybe, this won't change anything, since not many people are actually looking at it, a big flaw in what MMO combat does to games, interface grind.

    What people focus on is not the center of this, it's doing things differently. and i've not run into an MMO personally where the swords clash with each other and player characters moving their hands and weapons around to on purposely block a blaster bolt from behind.

     Well to me, doing something differently for the sake of it is pointless to me, I just hope they can design the skill system to make it so players will actually have to look at the ingame environment to play, instead of focusing on dishing out hte fastest rotation.

    Well they do have destructable enviros (like boxes), but i know myself once i know my skills and how long they take to regenerate, which in this game doesn't seem like that long that i pay attention to what is going on in game moreso then out, i'm turning my camera to see where things are walking so i can move the mobs to a safer location, getting them near places. you have to remember that you can push mobs (not knock them down, actually push them across the terrian. You can knock them as well as other players (as per Daniel erickson) into pits or next to explosives then blow that explosive up. But regardless whether one thinks things are pointless others may not. One guy a while ago brought up combat in MMOs and how rediculous it is that they don't interact with each other, He pointed out that EQ2 was the biggest offender of this when you can see space between a character, enough that the sword hits air but still manage to hit the mob. I suppose this is down to taste if you think it's important but they aren't doing it just for the sake of doing something differently. They feel that there is a point, that it makes combat feel more realisitc if when you are suppose to block that you actually do.

     

    My responses will be in green below yours but i'm going to cover something here. First off these are deviations from the standards, stuff you find in nearly every game, things like classes, races, instant PvP, levels, abilities, gaining xp.  You know the things you find in nearly MMO when you think MMO you think this. Merely because one game has something doesn't mean it doens't belong on this list. It's why i didn't say about innovation. They are doing things in a different way. As i explained above.

    Snip quite a bit of the text, was getting too long. Only kept the relevant quotes to reply with

    My answers in green under your orange (sorry for the color spasm, not sure how else to split our responses without having to do something weird to the formatting. The yellow is the comment from the feature list)

    Help me Bioware, you're my only hope.

    Is ToR going to be good? Dude it's Bioware making a freaking star wars game, all signs point to awesome. -G4tv MMo report.

    image

Sign In or Register to comment.