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Pay 2 win becoming legitimate? Have we really lost our way this much?
Creslin321
Member Posts: 5,359
With the legions of F2P games out there that allow you to "buy" your success with real money, and now with even Blizzard endorsing pay 2 win with the Diablo 3 RMAH, it really seems like pay 2 win has becoming a very legitimate part of gaming culture. In addition, it seems like many actual gamers endorse the pay 2 win idea. When I think about this, I just can't help but feel that the gaming community has lost its way.
In fact, I've seen many posters argue that pay 2 win is the way of the future, sometimes they don't seem to understand why many gamers rail against it so fervently. And that leads me to the purpose of this post. I want to explain why I, and likely many others, feel like pay 2 win is a bit of a travesty. What that said...let's begin.
I grew up largely before the era of MMORPGs, so all games were essentially offline only or with limited multiplayer. As such, they all had cheat codes or other ways to cheat that gave you things like god mode or the best equipment in the game etc. etc. When I first started gaming it was really tempting to just punch in some cheat codes and go in a rampage, and indeed, I did this as I'm sure every kid did.
But after you do it...you realize something. It ruined the game. Sure it's fun to rampage around with the godly sword of uberness for five minutes, but it gets boring real fast and you learn to not use cheat codes if you actually plan on enjoying the game. After that you realize something else. The fun of the game isn't having the godly sword of uberness, the fun is actually getting the godly sword of uberness. In other words, gaming is about the journey, not the destination.
This is essentially why I hate that P2W is becoming legitimate. I see it as essentially no different than using a cheat code in an old school game. The only real difference is that you have to pay real money to use the cheat code!
It just seems that gamers that endorse P2W don't get the point of games anymore. I mean, if you don't want to play the game so much that you are willing to pay your own money to skip it, then maybe you should find a different game.
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good luck on that!corp are trying to force feed this to user but if you look carefully there are a lot of f2p game dying(shutting down closing etc
the futur is a facebook gaming and such.surprised?probably but it is where the futur is i wouldnt be surprised if twitter was the offical place for gw2 and you actually had live feed of what your doing ijn the game on twitter!
I don't know about you guys but D3 isn't pay to win for me. I'll be buying the game and selling off all the rares for real money. I guess it is pay to win if you're the chump paying real money for gear.
My theme song.
While I agree whit you that some games are going to far (for my taste and bugget) Diablo3 is not in the same row.
in diablo3 -you- play -you- loot a rare item and -you- sell that rare item. and -I- buy that rare item.
you played more and had the choise between keeping the item,selling it for ingame cash, and selling it for real world cash.
I could not play as much but , i could buy it for ingame cash, or i could buy if from you for real world cash.
there is no p2win here due to the item being in the game for anyone whit the mind/time to get it. if you would not sell the item I would then not be able to get it untill i start playing asmuch as you and grind my way to it.
Pay 2 Win: People have the ability to buy power in the game. Just because its not pay 2 win to you doesn't mean its not pay 2 win at all.
It's your mentality that really makes me hate gamers.
I've read some of the debates on this site and can't remember hearing anyone say "pay to win" is the future. What I have read in the discussions here is that a free to play hybrid system is the future. If these are the comments you are speaking about then I think to word it the way you are doing is misleading to the community to say the least.
I won't ever advocate paying to win in an online competitive game but will say that for products like Champions,EQ2, and LOTRO if it helps them to achieve the type of gaming atmosphere many of us came into mmo's expecting (like frequent updates and a game world full of change and growth) then I'm all for it.
It's pretty easy not to buy gear. You don't have to buy it. You can hunt for it the old way just like I'm going to do. The only players that will suffer from the RMAH are the people that buy powerful gear to rush to the end of the game. If you don't want to be one of those people then don't buy gear. Easy Peasy.
My theme song.
Game of inches.
If you keep taking an inch every month for 10 years, you move ten feet.
TBH, we were destined to this back when MMOs had a subscription.(much longer than 10 years ago)
It's nothing short of indoctrination. As the young get older and a new young rises to take their place, they start at a more 'corrupted' starting point because we found it tolerant to give a few handful of inches.
Continue this cycle for a generation or two and all of a sudden the idea of 'pay to win' is more accepted than the idea of paying a monthly fee for a game was back when it happened.
Beware the power creep!
We really need separate forums for every newly launched game. There can be the anti-<MMO> one and there can be the 'what general discussion should be' one. All the lamenting can happen together where each can find solace in like minded can't-move-on-ers leaving the rest of us to actually move forward and discuss meaningful and relevant topics.
That same justification could be used for other pay 2 win games, but it isn't.
Pay 2 win is pay 2 win. No shitty justification is going to change that. You can ignore it all you want but its going to kill the games economy and gold farmers and sellers are going to be running amok.
Best response so far and I remember making these same assertions back just before caving in and purchasing SWG. As a console and pc gamer I just wasn't feeling the idea of paying monthly for a game I paid a premium box fee for.
As hard as it was to do it the first time I never looked back when I played and subbed to WOW,COH,STO,LOTRO, etc.
Now fast forward all these years and some of the same people who were oh so convincing in telling us it was reasonable to be charged monthly sub fees for games that didn't deliver on the promises made (one of the main reasons I was told by fans to justify the sub fee was the ever changing game world) are some of the same people who feel it's there responsibility now to reign the industry in?
As stated in an earlier post I'm still waiting for these dynamic and ever changing worlds that my sub fees were supposed to pay for, if a f2p hybrid helps them do that then I'm still on board.
This creates and strengthens markets. Its one of the reasons why competition is good in a free market, and price fixing is against the law.
"I swear -- by my life and my love for it -- that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine."
- John Galt
Sadly I believe pay2win is going to be the way of the future along with subscriptions as they won't be dieing out any time soon. It is unfortunate that the person with the biggest wallet is going to have the biggest advantage. Games are getting more and more like real life all the time...
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For me P2W has always meant that certain things in the game will be denied to me if I do not pay or will be made extra hard without paying for the shortcuts. In D3 the game should be just as accessible to those not buying items as those that do buy them. If you do not want to buy any items then you can play totally unaffected by those who buy them. That's a significant difference from a run of the mill P2W game.
there are several million of us already planning on boycotting diablo 3 just because we hate pay to win, blizzard will feel the crunch when they dont sell 1/3 as many copies as they would have if they hadnt been pay to win.
Where are you getting this number????
we are legion, and we are united against the pay to win beast. join us
The most compeling thread title and OP I have seen in the forum (not joking). Thank you..
I completely agree
For me P2W also referes to PVP, If you want to be able to compete in PVP you have to spend more real life money than the other guy. If D3 is like previous Dibablo games they my guess would be that, all buying equipment will do is get you to finish the game quicker. Don't see the point in that. Unless you are talking about some sort of PVP or not being able to finish the game without buying equipment then I don't consider it pay to win.
first off, your comparison of using cheat codes and P2W models is a travesty itself.
if you really want something to compare, using a cheat code = hacking. not P2W.
secondly, m ost P2W are P2W in the way that you can actually get a +XX weapon without it being utterly impossible. OR just straight up buying uber equipment.
P2W still has the journey that you mention, its just a significantly more fun journey as you dont have to worry about what to drop from your bags next, or you don't have to worry about spending time picking up loot cause your pet auto loots, or you don't have to worry about finding someone to help you kill that elite mob in the middle of nowhere because you're a bit ocd with complete all quests in a zone before you move to the next one.
point is, alot of people make P2W worst than what it really is. And alot of people make P2W less than what it really is.
Find the middle ground, then make a compelling post.
With me having said all this, let it be known that i don't support P2W. I'm just one of the people who are capable of seeing the middle ground.
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In most Pay to win games you buy items that give you an unfair advantage that can only be obtained through the item mall. That is not the case here.
My theme song.
Unfortunately, the argument doesn't hold up if he doesn't word it that way. I wonder if the first bowling alley to install a pro shop saw this kind of insanity, or if the first bowler to buy a wrist brace was ostracised for diluting the game. All the cool teams probably giggled at the 'chump' that actually paid for his own bowling ball rather than use a lane ball.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
ok so we have turned paying 50$ for a bowling ball, and possibly spending 100 to own your own bowling shoes, into spending hundreds and maybe even thousands to get the best top end item set in a video game?
may i remind you that hobbiest bowlers do it for enjoyment for many years, and that no one is going to play D3 for very long because its not allowing mods, and only games that allow mods remain playable for anywhere near very long.
we are legion, we oppose the pay to win beast, join us
This question is only in reference to Diablo 3, what's the point in buying items in that game, aren't you essentially defeating the purpose of the entire game in doing so? To clarify I've always seen the biggest aspect of Diablo games to be killing and looting. As story is there, it just makes up such a small part of the overall experience, it really just feels to be a tacked on thing to add some form of backdrop to the world.
To me it seems to undermine the entire purpose of the game, and makes it solely about combat, which IMO has never been a strong point for Arpgs, though I'm not really a fan of hack and slash game-play.
To SB fans, please stop making our demographic look bad.Stop invading threads that have nothing to do with sandboxes.
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completely agree with you on all points.
Although i have to point out to the nay-sayers that just because you are purchasing it for real life money from another player doesn't make it any less destructive to the game experience and doesn't make it any less wrong. You see most of you will have the argument that people will somehow ACTUALLY use the regular in game currency AH instead of the money grubbing RL AH. Let me explain something to you, in this economy if a kid can spend all his time running dungeons with his friends for sellable gear for RL money he'll never get a job EVER so they might as well take out the regular AH and just do all RL AH from here on out. Then there's the prospect of the governments across the world discovering this load of cash being flown around that no one is taxing because it's for virtual items, that's the second danger, government involvement.
Price fixing, what?
Strengthened MMO market, how?
You say competition is good yet 'pay 2 win'(by default the abolishment of competition) is also good?
I think I'm seriously misunderstanding and missing your point.
We really need separate forums for every newly launched game. There can be the anti-<MMO> one and there can be the 'what general discussion should be' one. All the lamenting can happen together where each can find solace in like minded can't-move-on-ers leaving the rest of us to actually move forward and discuss meaningful and relevant topics.