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Why story driven content will succeed

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  • thexratedthexrated Member UncommonPosts: 1,368

    Originally posted by arieste

    Originally posted by thexrated

    Story-driven and quest-driven are two very different things. 

    Correct.  

     

    But for the purposes of our discussion they are interchangeable.  If you consider that all those themeparks are "quest-driven", then it is the same for SWTOR - it is all about the quests that your one character is given.   It's not really about the over-arching story that the entire population is part of, it's about the small stories having to do with your character only, taken as though the rest of the world didn't exist (this is exactly the same as any other quest-based game).

    Your assumption is that the story needs to be interwoven to the game world as a whole. It can be, but it does not have to be. Bioware's interactive story design and Blizzard's quest driven progression are two very different things. Both tell a story, but Bioware's games have conversations and choices as a part of interactive gameplay. Your choices in those conversations usually have as much impact as the combat and puzzle elements.  In a Blizzard game, quests only provide XP and items to help with your progression. 

    "The person who experiences greatness must have a feeling for the myth he is in."

  • thexratedthexrated Member UncommonPosts: 1,368

    Originally posted by NeVeRLiFt

    Originally posted by Malickie


    Originally posted by Palebane

    I find this very ironic, as most players will probably skip the story completely in thier voracious race to the finish line, just to start pedaling away on the gear treadmill.

    Who cares about those people? They do it in every game why is TOR going to be any different for them? These people need to go back to diablo.

     

    Why does TOR have chasing the carrot for gear as it's only end-game content?

    Looks like with all the money they spent and all the bigheads working on this Starwars mmo .... they could come up with something better for the end-game than just the treadmill of chasing gear.

    Probably not. I doubt the end-game will be where this title will shine.

    "The person who experiences greatness must have a feeling for the myth he is in."

  • IcewhiteIcewhite Member Posts: 6,403

    Made it all the way to post 8 before "sandbox" appeared, and we still haven't seen "clone" yet.  Proud of you guys!

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • rpgalonrpgalon Member Posts: 430

    I'm not really looking forward to SWTOR story, but it is because I don't like star wars.

    But, I do expect that story driven content to be the future for themeparks, and I'm looking forward to the story in TSW, just because of the theme and it is coming from the mind of Ragnar Tornquist.

     


    I not really looking forward to SWTOR story, but it is because I don't like star wars.


     


    But, I do expect that story driven content be the future of themeparks, and I'm looking forward for the story in TSW, just because of the theme and it is coming from the mind of Ragnar Tornquist

  • HerodesHerodes Member UncommonPosts: 1,494


    Originally posted by maskedweasel

    Originally posted by arieste

    Originally posted by thexrated
    Story-driven and quest-driven are two very different things. 
    Correct.  
     
    But for the purposes of our discussion they are interchangeable.  If you consider that all those themeparks are "quest-driven", then it is the same for SWTOR - it is all about the quests that your one character is given.   It's not really about the over-arching story that the entire population is part of, it's about the small stories having to do with your character only, taken as though the rest of the world didn't exist (this is exactly the same as any other quest-based game).


     
    But you see, it isn't interchangeable.  Quest driven gameplay requires you to hit quest after quest, doing exactly what the quest details.  You end up with a big laundry list of quests, and you pop through each of them.   BioWares story driven gameplay is different as not only do you have choices for your story in particular,  but those choices can change what you do.  It could be the difference between another kill quest in WoW,  to changing flirting with an NPC to skip an objective entirely.
     
    In something quest driven,  its just about the quests,  theres nothing that will change the quests,  everything is predetermined, the path is always the same.   In BioWares story-driven game, its all based on story choices, and what experiences you have in your story.  Each new story brings new choices.  These choices change the character, which in turn changes how others perceive the character.  In grouping and multiplayer dialog and things like that,  due to  how you went through your story, could very well determine how you interact in those situations.
     

    In my opinion it is not far away from each other in case of ToR.


    In a random MMO you go to the NPCs with the exclamation marks. They offer you a quest. You may read the quest or not and press the "accept" or "decline" button.

    In ToR you go to the NPCs with the exclamation marks (it is a different symbol, I agree). Then a communication sequence starts with voice over and 3 options for you: basically "Yes", "x", "no". X could be "more info" or "mo´money" or whatever. Then you go doing your quests; kill 10 space rats, click 5 devices etc. Sometimes you downed a boss, then you have to decide to kill him or leave him alive. One gives 10 Light points, the other 10 darkness points.

    There was a video at E3 shown most of it, if I remember correctly. To be fair, I came to this conclusion after only viewing a few videos, so the game may differ.

  • maskedweaselmaskedweasel Member LegendaryPosts: 12,171

    Originally posted by Herodes

     




    Originally posted by maskedweasel





    Originally posted by arieste






    Originally posted by thexrated

    Story-driven and quest-driven are two very different things. 






    Correct.  

     

    But for the purposes of our discussion they are interchangeable.  If you consider that all those themeparks are "quest-driven", then it is the same for SWTOR - it is all about the quests that your one character is given.   It's not really about the over-arching story that the entire population is part of, it's about the small stories having to do with your character only, taken as though the rest of the world didn't exist (this is exactly the same as any other quest-based game).






     

    But you see, it isn't interchangeable.  Quest driven gameplay requires you to hit quest after quest, doing exactly what the quest details.  You end up with a big laundry list of quests, and you pop through each of them.   BioWares story driven gameplay is different as not only do you have choices for your story in particular,  but those choices can change what you do.  It could be the difference between another kill quest in WoW,  to changing flirting with an NPC to skip an objective entirely.

     

    In something quest driven,  its just about the quests,  theres nothing that will change the quests,  everything is predetermined, the path is always the same.   In BioWares story-driven game, its all based on story choices, and what experiences you have in your story.  Each new story brings new choices.  These choices change the character, which in turn changes how others perceive the character.  In grouping and multiplayer dialog and things like that,  due to  how you went through your story, could very well determine how you interact in those situations.

     





    In my opinion it is not far away from each other in case of ToR.

     



    In a random MMO you go to the NPCs with the exclamation marks. They offer you a quest. You may read the quest or not and press the "accept" or "decline" button.

    In ToR you go to the NPCs with the exclamation marks (it is a different symbol, I agree). Then a communication sequence starts with voice over and 3 options for you: basically "Yes", "x", "no". X could be "more info" or "mo´money" or whatever. Then you go doing your quests; kill 10 space rats, click 5 devices etc. Sometimes you downed a boss, then you have to decide to kill him or leave him alive. One gives 10 Light points, the other 10 darkness points.

    There was a video at E3 shown most of it, if I remember correctly. To be fair, I came to this conclusion after only viewing a few videos, so the game may differ.

    Whle this is a very good, basic summary,  it is possible for other options to come up based on things like sex, or maybe even race,  who knows at this point.  For example,  on one IA quest we saw (the IA was female)  you had a dark, light, and neutral choice,  but you also had the choice to "flirt" with this particular character,  and I think they failed the roll on that in the video.  It was an older video from one of the shows.

     

    Things like that could change your quest direction.  Well, in some ways, every conversation gives you a chance to change your quest direction,  just some more directly than others.  For example, if you could convince a character to give you what you want without having to fight them,  then the quest has changed drastically.  In that sense, your characters personality in your story changed the quest direction, or lackthereof. 



  • TekkamanTekkaman Member UncommonPosts: 158

    You want story driven? Go play the first two years of Asheron's Call and come back. THAT was a community. THAT was a story. PvE, PvP, PK, it didn't matter. Everybody participated by assisting or thwarting (I've always wanted to use that word) their fellow players. The GMs played alongside the players for a very long time as NPCs and drove the story.

     

    Come back after you've experienced something like that to even speak about story driven content. This game has not had any press about "dynamic world events" that will be more than - HEY GUYS LET'S ALL GET TOGETHER AND GATHER THESE POINTLESS THINGS THAT NOBODY HAS ANY BACKGROUND ON AND THEN I'LL TELL YOU HOW IMPORTANT IT IS!

     

    ALRIGHT GUYS WE'RE GONNA BE THERE, HOVERING ABOVE YOU LIKE A GOD, WATCHING YOU AND THEN YOU CAN IMMERSE YOURSELF AND THINK ABOUT ALL OF THESE COOL THINGS HAPPENING IN THE UNIVERSE!

     

    Not happening. Smooth gameplay though and that's what counts these days.

  • BladestromBladestrom Member UncommonPosts: 5,001

    Originally posted by GreenHell

    and what happens when the story ends or becomes stale because you have heard it over and over again while running the same raids over and over again?

     Exactly.  Short term the game looks like an immense single/corg game.  Once the stories run out the game is going to go flat very fast.

    rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar

    Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D

  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 43,373

    Originally posted by Malickie

    Originally posted by Meowhead


    Originally posted by maskedweasel



    Most players is a gross overstatement in my estimate.  Sure you'll have people trying to race through the game at launch,  but i feel the majority won't,  at least their first few times through with new characters.  

     

    I might skip some voice dialog myself along the way, mostly because I do that in other BioWare games because I can read faster than they talk,  but I won't  be skipping everything.  I think most players will know this is a BioWare game though,  and will play , at least some of it,  as they would others.

    ... it's about time I heard that from somebody else.

    Last time I said that in an SW:ToR topic, people were treating me like I was some sort of illiterate Philistine who doesn't care about story.

    Just because I prefer to read rather than listen to somebody talk... sheesh.

    Who knew that people who listened to audio books were intellectually superior to those who read old fashioned books?

    I'm sure plenty do this, hell in kotor i have no clue what wookies were saying to me, I skipped before I could even read I found it so annoying twileks to.

    I'm with you, I miss half of forum discussions these days because people are always posting youtube links to "watch", and I abhor watching anything, would much prefer to read at my own pace.

    When I recently tried DWO it took all my selfcontrol not to just skip through the story scenes, and if I had to reload and do something over I always skipped past them.

    In fact, i quit playing because it seemed to me the real gameplay was more about telling me a story at their pace than actually letting me determine how I wanted to move through the story.

    "True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde 

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • Argo951Argo951 Member Posts: 123

    All content in all games has a story, 98% of players are just ignorant of that fact. Just sayin...

  • surstromingsurstroming Member UncommonPosts: 151

    I don't want a reason for why I must kill 10 rats!,its been like this since 90!

  • yodablazeyodablaze Member Posts: 234

    Originally posted by surstroming

    I don't want a reason for why I must kill 10 rats!,its been like this since 90!

     This isn't going to change, it will be simply requested of you in a more "interesting" manner.

  • nate1980nate1980 Member UncommonPosts: 2,062

    Originally posted by luciusETRUR

    Story-driven content is nice and dandy but it leaves the playerbase to be somewhat like spectators. I like player-driven stories.. the ones you see in EVE, Darkfall, old SWG, etc. Story-driven isn't new, it's just BioWare's fortee in their previous titles. To me at least, MMOs are meant to be worlds you take part in, that you yourself change. That the players are something more than just pawns of the developers, but are themselves pioneers of a new world.

    To each their own, but multiplayer RPGs are not what I am after. I am for MMOGs..

     To each their own, and I enjoyed SWG as well, but one must ask if you truly enjoy sandbox MMO's, why did you log 5000 hours in WoW and why would you even waste your time posting in a SWTOR thread knowing it doesn't fit your standards?

  • DistopiaDistopia Member EpicPosts: 21,183

    Originally posted by Kyleran

    I'm with you, I miss half of forum discussions these days because people are always posting youtube links to "watch", and I abhor watching anything, would much prefer to read at my own pace.

    When I recently tried DWO it took all my selfcontrol not to just skip through the story scenes, and if I had to reload and do something over I always skipped past them.

    In fact, i quit playing because it seemed to me the real gameplay was more about telling me a story at their pace than actually letting me determine how I wanted to move through the story.

    Another good example of this is NWN2. My god was your "uncle's" voice grating on the nerves, there isn't a single change in pitch when he speaks, his voice almost sounds like txt to voice....

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


  • Odium420Odium420 Member Posts: 18

    Originally posted by Kyleran

    Originally posted by Malickie


    Originally posted by Meowhead


    Originally posted by maskedweasel



    Most players is a gross overstatement in my estimate.  Sure you'll have people trying to race through the game at launch,  but i feel the majority won't,  at least their first few times through with new characters.  

     

    I might skip some voice dialog myself along the way, mostly because I do that in other BioWare games because I can read faster than they talk,  but I won't  be skipping everything.  I think most players will know this is a BioWare game though,  and will play , at least some of it,  as they would others.

    ... it's about time I heard that from somebody else.

    Last time I said that in an SW:ToR topic, people were treating me like I was some sort of illiterate Philistine who doesn't care about story.

    Just because I prefer to read rather than listen to somebody talk... sheesh.

    Who knew that people who listened to audio books were intellectually superior to those who read old fashioned books?

    I'm sure plenty do this, hell in kotor i have no clue what wookies were saying to me, I skipped before I could even read I found it so annoying twileks to.

    I'm with you, I miss half of forum discussions these days because people are always posting youtube links to "watch", and I abhor watching anything, would much prefer to read at my own pace.

    When I recently tried DWO it took all my selfcontrol not to just skip through the story scenes, and if I had to reload and do something over I always skipped past them.

    In fact, i quit playing because it seemed to me the real gameplay was more about telling me a story at their pace than actually letting me determine how I wanted to move through the story.

    You both feel the same as me. 

     

    I think it is pretty funny that people say these quests will have more meaning becasue you have to make a choice or the characters will be talking to you. 

     

    Some of the best MMO experiences are doing something mundane with some other people in a big world.  That is what gives people the ability to be creative or interact more. 

     

    When I look at the "Raids" or "Dungeons" in Star Wars, I don't see how you can do it twice and it have the same impact. Unless they are cranking out new "quests" like crazy people will get bored super fast. The combat looks pretty generic and the story is supposed to carry the game.

     

    Do you read a book and then read the same book again right away. Even playing back through the quests with different characters you will not feel the same about the story.  Then you will just focus on the combat which like I said looks pretty generic. A good story has an end. A MMO is not supposed to "end". How are you going to progress in your story at max level?

     

    All that being said I will be getting the game at some point probably but I don't think the game will be a "Game Changer" especially for the story. The game will be polished. The game will be huge. The game is Star Wars. I will enjoy it for what it is for as long as it lets me. 

     

  • artemisentr4artemisentr4 Member UncommonPosts: 1,431

    Originally posted by luciusETRUR

     

    I'm going to go ahead and assume you meant to quote me. So Here we go:

    EVE is definitely a boring game when you first get started, and that's the biggest drawback it has. It really takes a couple months to get your feet on the ground before it becomes any fun, at all. You need to find a good corporation to help you out or you're just going to quit, because it isn't fun at all.

     

    The problem is there is no story behind the game at all IMO. Joining a corp and do what? Harvest then PvP? For what purpose. It is just not something that is fun at all for me.

     

    Darkfall has it's own problems (mostly, the size of the dev team) and you come up with such fantastic things as "I lose stuff I harvested for hours", well that actually is your own problem. In games with full loot.. typically you have a bank that's at least localized, and there are options either to "haul" or you just run back to bank. If you decide it's not worth making the way back, that's the risk you take. There are ways to prevent losing hours of harvestable goods. That's a lesson not just with gathering but the entire game in general.

     

    I was using examples as to meaningless game play in a video game. Again, for me and what I like to play. I loved the combat in Darkfall. And yes, I had a crap load in my vault. I had so many suits of armor that it didn't matter if I lost anything or not. But that is not a fun way to play a game to me. I want a story to play through that I will enjoy much more. End game is different, but the questing through story gives my gaming much more purpose.

     

    Building cities and politics is meaningless? It brings out some of the most fun, I love listening to stories of EU launch of Darkfall or my friends who PvP in nullsec.. they do make stories. It is great fun and it adds to the gameplay. Of course, it isn't for everyone that's why themeparks exist. However, you're arguments that they are "boring" or "harsh" are trivial and these games aren't meant to be soloed so don't expect companies to cater to solo play.

     

    Polistics and city building to me is meaningless. Just a grind for PvP and nothing more. There is nothing you are really fighting for or earning. Just a place to craft, BS and defend or attack. So yes it is boring to me and I will never go back to those types of game.

     As I said before, to each his own. Not saying sandbox games are bad for everyone, just my personal distaste. So on the reverse side, no reason to say the story RPG style is bad for everyone. Just chose the game you want to play and enjoy it. Don't try to make every game the way you want it. Hybrid is ok IMO, but I want a RPG story as BW does it in their SPGs. And this will be it.

    “How many people long for that "past, simpler, and better world," I wonder, without ever recognizing the truth that perhaps it was they who were simpler and better, and not the world about them?”
    R.A.Salvatore

  • jpnzjpnz Member Posts: 3,529

    Originally posted by Argo951

    All content in all games has a story, 98% of players are just ignorant of that fact. Just sayin...

    This is true in the MMO world but not in the single player gaming world.

    If the playerbase can't really connect to the story or do not enjoy the story, it is not the player's fault.

    DA:O, The Witcher1/2, Planescape:Torment all had brilliant stories that players loved, so it can be done and SWTOR is trying to make it happen in the MMO world.

    Gdemami -
    Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.

  • Argo951Argo951 Member Posts: 123

    This is an MMO, so what is your point?

    People that like Lore and story will get a bonus out of this game, people that just want their shiney pixils and be called Look Skystrider  can still do that too.

  • azmundaiazmundai Member UncommonPosts: 1,419

    Originally posted by jpnz

    Originally posted by yodablaze

    I think I've played ALL of Bioware's games (Jade Empire is also a title that went unrecognized and deserves a sequel).

    Bioware does an amazing job with telling stories and also at game design as well.

    I don't want to sound like a stinker but here it is...

    Story isn't EVERYTHING. It will help the game a lot but a true RPG experience is in the freedom of experience and experimentation. Some of the best aspects of role playing is telling or creating the story yourself. True brilliance is providing the player with enough tools in their world (sandbox) to allow players to shape their unique experience. The story of course helps the content and experience move along, but relying on story to make this title a win spells epic  F-A-I-L. Tor will need more than story to make this game a win so don't bet on story alone.

    If you have played all BW games than you should see that the game design / mechanics of BW games and WoW are fairly similar. Go to XYZ -> Talk -> Do 123 or Hit button to swing sword / fire fireball.

    But in BW games you want to do the quests but in WoW you don't.

    Why?

    *Hint, the answer is a word in your post.*

    if you spent 1/2 as much time reading text as opposed to the time you will be spending watching cinematics you would have gotten plenty of that word you are referring to. I wonder if this all points to our society just not wanting to read anymore. How sad would that be? It's truly unfathomable to me how people think voice over is going to chage anything other than to make the game even more single player than the rest of the recent single player mmos. It'll be a nice touch, but it won't change much.

    LFD tools are great for cramming people into content, but quality > quantity.
    I am, usually on the sandbox .. more "hardcore" side of things, but I also do just want to have fun. So lighten up already :)

  • jpnzjpnz Member Posts: 3,529

    Originally posted by Argo951

    This is an MMO, so what is your point?

    People that like Lore and story will get a bonus out of this game, people that just want their shiney pixils and be called Look Skystrider  can still do that too.

    That MMO's can have nice stories that players enjoy?

    You could have said the same thing back in the DOOM/Quake era before Half Life/Deus Ex showed everyone that yes, a story driven FPS is possible and will sell bucketloads.

    I see SWTOR trying a similar thing with the MMO genre, challenge the assumption that 'why should MMO players not give a damn about quests and all about 'get me to the END GAME NOW!'.

    Gdemami -
    Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.

  • Cik_AsalinCik_Asalin Member Posts: 3,033

    Success is a realtive term, though so is fail.  It all depends on ones' perspective or spin there-of.

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