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Why story driven content will succeed

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  • GreenHellGreenHell Member UncommonPosts: 1,323

    and what happens when the story ends or becomes stale because you have heard it over and over again while running the same raids over and over again?

  • thexratedthexrated Member UncommonPosts: 1,368

    Originally posted by arieste

    Originally posted by SaintViktor

    Simply because it is not meaningless grind other mmo developers have been shoveling out for the past 10 years.

    EQ2, WoW, CoH, TR, AoC, LoTRO, FE - and countless lesser titles - were all built around story-based progression rather than grinding mobs.

    Story-driven and quest-driven are two very different things. Blizzard did change the MMO landscape with its quest driven progression approach, which was welcomed by most, but what Bioware is doing a step forward from that. 

    "The person who experiences greatness must have a feeling for the myth he is in."

  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 43,373

    I'm not sold on story driven MMO's yet.  I stopped playing single player games because I enjoyed the stories the players in MMO's made by their very presence and interacting with them.

    I've played DWO, KOTOR and other story driven single player RPG's and I didn't like any of them, I didn't care for the artificial story being handed me.

    I do understand, since MMORPG's devolved to largely solo experiences, it's pretty damn dull ginding out endless quests or mobs alone, so a story probably is a welcome diversion.

    But it wasn't always this way, and the typcial "grind" activities the OP decries were actually fun when you were doing them with other people.

    Those days are gone though..so perhaps this will be a good substitute.

    "True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde 

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • DistopiaDistopia Member EpicPosts: 21,183

    Originally posted by GreenHell

    and what happens when the story ends or becomes stale because you have heard it over and over again while running the same raids over and over again?

    This is irrelevant to the point, the journey is the key to what the op is talking about, the destination can be crap regardless of how the journey plays out. There's more than one subject when it comes to MMO's, every thread gets dragged into this same debate, end-game is still a question yes, but it's a question for a different topic.

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


  • ariestearieste Member UncommonPosts: 3,309

    Originally posted by thexrated

    Story-driven and quest-driven are two very different things. 

    Correct.  

     

    But for the purposes of our discussion they are interchangeable.  If you consider that all those themeparks are "quest-driven", then it is the same for SWTOR - it is all about the quests that your one character is given.   It's not really about the over-arching story that the entire population is part of, it's about the small stories having to do with your character only, taken as though the rest of the world didn't exist (this is exactly the same as any other quest-based game).

    "I’d rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."

    - Raph Koster

    Tried: AO,EQ,EQ2,DAoC,SWG,AA,SB,HZ,CoX,PS,GA,TR,IV,GnH,EVE, PP,DnL,WAR,MxO,SWG,FE,VG,AoC,DDO,LoTRO,Rift,TOR,Aion,Tera,TSW,GW2,DCUO,CO,STO
    Favourites: AO,SWG,EVE,TR,LoTRO,TSW,EQ2, Firefall
    Currently Playing: ESO

  • TheStarheartTheStarheart Member Posts: 368

    There will be many less people who rush to the endgame, imo. I know that personally I'm going to be taking my time through the storyline, and enjoying some content with a buddy or two. We're all big fans of the Star Wars universe. This is the reason that KOTOR was a great game for us, and not just some crappy RPG we picked up and shelved after a playthrough or that we only rented in the first place. 

    Many of us are operating outside of the little hype and innovation grades that everyone is assigning to this game because it's going to be the IP we love, with a great story line, and something we're going to be happy to be a part of and put our time to.

  • ariestearieste Member UncommonPosts: 3,309

    Originally posted by TheStarheart

    There will be many less people who rush to the endgame, imo. I know that personally I'm going to be taking my time through the storyline, and enjoying some content with a buddy or two. We're all big fans of the Star Wars universe. This is the reason that KOTOR was a great game for us, and not just some crappy RPG we picked up and shelved after a playthrough or that we only rented in the first place. 

    Many of us are operating outside of the little hype and innovation grades that everyone is assigning to this game because it's going to be the IP we love, with a great story line, and something we're going to be happy to be a part of and put our time to.

    This is similar to my approach to THIS game.  

     

    But let me ask you this, given that this is your approach, how important is it to you that this game is an MMO?  Would you be just as happy if it was a game designed for 1-8 people that you'd be able to "play with your buddy"?

     

    "I’d rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."

    - Raph Koster

    Tried: AO,EQ,EQ2,DAoC,SWG,AA,SB,HZ,CoX,PS,GA,TR,IV,GnH,EVE, PP,DnL,WAR,MxO,SWG,FE,VG,AoC,DDO,LoTRO,Rift,TOR,Aion,Tera,TSW,GW2,DCUO,CO,STO
    Favourites: AO,SWG,EVE,TR,LoTRO,TSW,EQ2, Firefall
    Currently Playing: ESO

  • Creslin321Creslin321 Member Posts: 5,359

    Originally posted by jpnz

    Originally posted by Requiamer

    ....

    If we took away 'go here -> talk to NPC -> Go here to do XYZ' quests for all games even Planescape: Torment will be bad 'game'.

    Heck, all RPGs made during the last 20 years would be and we had some absolutely amazing ones, like Baldurs Gate.

    Not sure why you think the mechanics are the issue?

     The mechanics of questing in games like PS:T and BG1/2 may be (kind of) similar to WoW questing, but the experience is WAAAAAAY different.

    In WoW, you go to a town, there are 3 NPCs with exclamation points over their heads.  You talk to each one and accept the quests.  Then you are provided with a map marker to show you where you have to go.  So you follow the marker, kill X number of Y monster or collect X number of Y item, return and done.  It's basically a chore.

    In a classic RPG like PS:T, you are typically given the direction of what you have to do by some kind of event/cutscene.  So you'll get a cutscene that basically tells you have to find a hag in order to accomplish your goal.  At this point, you don't know much more, you may have a hint of where you should start looking but that's it.  So you start investigating, talking to NPCs, talking to party members, exploring the city.  Eventually you will get some more clues of what you have to do, and oftentimes you have to put together information or items you receive from multiple sources to come to a solution.

    Figuring out what to do can be a very rewarding process.  You feel like an actual detective trying to put all the pieces of a puzzle together.  Imagine how horrible PS:T would have been if everytime you get a quest, the game would just instruct you on what exactly to do like WoW.  It would basically be like you are just reading the walkthrough as you play.  It would kill the mystery!

    That's the problem with WoW quests.  They tell you EXACTLY what to do and where to do it the second you get the quest!  It trivializes the entire process.  If the quests were designed so that you actually had to do some kind of investigation and problem solving to accomplish them they would be SOOOO much more rewarding.

    But the problem with this is that MMORPGs are so focused on getting max level NOW NOW NOW that people would just read walkthroughs anyway.  So basically, I just don't think that single player-esque questing is as interesting in MMORPGs.  So long as the drive to achieve max level quickly is there, the questing just devolves into a bunch of chores.

    Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?

  • dougmysticeydougmysticey Member Posts: 1,176

    Originally posted by arieste

    Originally posted by TheStarheart

    There will be many less people who rush to the endgame, imo. I know that personally I'm going to be taking my time through the storyline, and enjoying some content with a buddy or two. We're all big fans of the Star Wars universe. This is the reason that KOTOR was a great game for us, and not just some crappy RPG we picked up and shelved after a playthrough or that we only rented in the first place. 

    Many of us are operating outside of the little hype and innovation grades that everyone is assigning to this game because it's going to be the IP we love, with a great story line, and something we're going to be happy to be a part of and put our time to.

    This is similar to my approach to THIS game.  

     

    But let me ask you this, given that this is your approach, how important is it to you that this game is an MMO?  Would you be just as happy if it was a game designed for 1-8 people that you'd be able to "play with your buddy"?

     

     I can answer this from my point of view. First off, I am thrilled that Bioware is making the effort to bring real choices and story elements to the MMO genre. I would NOT have been as happy or eager to play if this was a big Co-op game though I definately would have gotten it.

    Being able to meet hundreds of people running around with their characters is a part of the MMO journey. Getting into a PUG to do a Dungeon, or rather, Flashpoint or Operation is going to be a blast. Wrapping the story elements and other signature Bioware stuff like deep companion characters and wrapping this into a complete MMO infrastructure  is what has raised this game to a new cool level to me.

    image

  • GreenHellGreenHell Member UncommonPosts: 1,323

    Originally posted by Malickie

    Originally posted by GreenHell

    and what happens when the story ends or becomes stale because you have heard it over and over again while running the same raids over and over again?

    This is irrelevant to the point, the journey is the key to what the op is talking about, the destination can be crap regardless of how the journey plays out. There's more than one subject when it comes to MMO's, every thread gets dragged into this same debate, end-game is still a question yes, but it's a question for a different topic.

    The title of this thread is  "Why story driven content will succeed". No where in his post does it say that he is only talking about leveling. In fact there are many different grinds that exsist in MMO's today. Why is it when this subject comes up some people want to avoid this particular aspect of the game? There is going to be a repetitous end game grind of some sort. How is all of the VO and story line going to change that? It's not.

  • TheStarheartTheStarheart Member Posts: 368

    Originally posted by arieste

    Originally posted by TheStarheart

    There will be many less people who rush to the endgame, imo. I know that personally I'm going to be taking my time through the storyline, and enjoying some content with a buddy or two. We're all big fans of the Star Wars universe. This is the reason that KOTOR was a great game for us, and not just some crappy RPG we picked up and shelved after a playthrough or that we only rented in the first place. 

    Many of us are operating outside of the little hype and innovation grades that everyone is assigning to this game because it's going to be the IP we love, with a great story line, and something we're going to be happy to be a part of and put our time to.

    This is similar to my approach to THIS game.  

     

    But let me ask you this, given that this is your approach, how important is it to you that this game is an MMO?  Would you be just as happy if it was a game designed for 1-8 people that you'd be able to "play with your buddy"?

     

    I'd love the fact that I get to keep the character I played with and that I'd get to keep experiencing new content with that character. Not to mention since I know that there will be more than 10 of my friends getting the game, I'd rather have the option to do things with all of them (and inevitably others) at the same time.

  • jpnzjpnz Member Posts: 3,529

    Originally posted by Creslin321

    Originally posted by jpnz


    Originally posted by Requiamer

    ....

    If we took away 'go here -> talk to NPC -> Go here to do XYZ' quests for all games even Planescape: Torment will be bad 'game'.

    Heck, all RPGs made during the last 20 years would be and we had some absolutely amazing ones, like Baldurs Gate.

    Not sure why you think the mechanics are the issue?

     The mechanics of questing in games like PS:T and BG1/2 may be (kind of) similar to WoW questing, but the experience is WAAAAAAY different.

    In WoW, you go to a town, there are 3 NPCs with exclamation points over their heads.  You talk to each one and accept the quests.  Then you are provided with a map marker to show you where you have to go.  So you follow the marker, kill X number of Y monster or collect X number of Y item, return and done.  It's basically a chore.

    In a classic RPG like PS:T, you are typically given the direction of what you have to do by some kind of event/cutscene.  So you'll get a cutscene that basically tells you have to find a hag in order to accomplish your goal.  At this point, you don't know much more, you may have a hint of where you should start looking but that's it.  So you start investigating, talking to NPCs, talking to party members, exploring the city.  Eventually you will get some more clues of what you have to do, and oftentimes you have to put together information or items you receive from multiple sources to come to a solution.

    Figuring out what to do can be a very rewarding process.  You feel like an actual detective trying to put all the pieces of a puzzle together.  Imagine how horrible PS:T would have been if everytime you get a quest, the game would just instruct you on what exactly to do like WoW.  It would basically be like you are just reading the walkthrough as you play.  It would kill the mystery!

    That's the problem with WoW quests.  They tell you EXACTLY what to do and where to do it the second you get the quest!  It trivializes the entire process.  If the quests were designed so that you actually had to do some kind of investigation and problem solving to accomplish them they would be SOOOO much more rewarding.

    But the problem with this is that MMORPGs are so focused on getting max level NOW NOW NOW that people would just read walkthroughs anyway.  So basically, I just don't think that single player-esque questing is as interesting in MMORPGs.  So long as the drive to achieve max level quickly is there, the questing just devolves into a bunch of chores.

    Vanilla WoW quests had lots of quests that didn't tell you exactly where everything was.

    You are putting the cart before the horse here though.

    Players want the 'max level NOW' because they don't give a damn about the quests in MMOs.

    SWTOR is all about asking 'can we make them give a damn?'

    This is certainly the first MMO where the 'story' takes a front seat rather than your traditional MMO designs.

    It is almost too simple really. If players loved to go and kill countless Zombies/Rats/Dragons/Vampire etc by pressing buttons in Dragon Age: Origins or 1000s of other RPGs, why don't they enjoy it in an MMO?

    Gdemami -
    Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.

  • DistopiaDistopia Member EpicPosts: 21,183

    Originally posted by GreenHell

    The title of this thread is  "Why story driven content will succeed". No where in his post does it say that he is only talking about leveling. In fact there are many different grinds that exsist in MMO's today. Why is it when this subject comes up some people want to avoid this particular aspect of the game? There is going to be a repetitous end game grind of some sort. How is all of the VO and story line going to change that? It's not.

    The mindless grind would seem to me to imply the grind through the game, the questing if you will.. That is what TOR is doing differently afterall.

    It's not about avoiding it, it's about getting sick of every debate ending up at that point. You can't talk about the story content without someone trying to direct the conversation in the direction of gear grinding. It happens in every thread, yet we know nothing really about endgame, what we do know about is the subject of the OP. Biowares cinematic approach to the questing game. That's the subject of this thread, not "what's endgame gonna be"?

    To me what the OP is saying is finally a MMO will have an interesting questing experience, it will not be filled with mundance chat boxes, and farmer Browns pies.

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


  • maskedweaselmaskedweasel Member LegendaryPosts: 12,171

    Originally posted by arieste

    Originally posted by thexrated

    Story-driven and quest-driven are two very different things. 

    Correct.  

     

    But for the purposes of our discussion they are interchangeable.  If you consider that all those themeparks are "quest-driven", then it is the same for SWTOR - it is all about the quests that your one character is given.   It's not really about the over-arching story that the entire population is part of, it's about the small stories having to do with your character only, taken as though the rest of the world didn't exist (this is exactly the same as any other quest-based game).

     

    But you see, it isn't interchangeable.  Quest driven gameplay requires you to hit quest after quest, doing exactly what the quest details.  You end up with a big laundry list of quests, and you pop through each of them.   BioWares story driven gameplay is different as not only do you have choices for your story in particular,  but those choices can change what you do.  It could be the difference between another kill quest in WoW,  to changing flirting with an NPC to skip an objective entirely.

     

    In something quest driven,  its just about the quests,  theres nothing that will change the quests,  everything is predetermined, the path is always the same.   In BioWares story-driven game, its all based on story choices, and what experiences you have in your story.  Each new story brings new choices.  These choices change the character, which in turn changes how others perceive the character.  In grouping and multiplayer dialog and things like that,  due to  how you went through your story, could very well determine how you interact in those situations.

     



  • PalebanePalebane Member RarePosts: 4,011

    I find this very ironic, as most players will probably skip the story completely in thier voracious race to the finish line, just to start pedaling away on the gear treadmill.

    Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.

  • DistopiaDistopia Member EpicPosts: 21,183

    Originally posted by Palebane

    I find this very ironic, as most players will probably skip the story completely in thier voracious race to the finish line, just to start pedaling away on the gear treadmill.

    Who cares about those people? They do it in every game why is TOR going to be any different for them? These people need to go back to diablo.

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


  • maskedweaselmaskedweasel Member LegendaryPosts: 12,171

    Originally posted by Malickie

    Originally posted by Palebane

    I find this very ironic, as most players will probably skip the story completely in thier voracious race to the finish line, just to start pedaling away on the gear treadmill.

    Who cares about those people? They do it in every game why is TOR going to be any different for them? These people need to go back to diablo.

     

    Most players is a gross overstatement in my estimate.  Sure you'll have people trying to race through the game at launch,  but i feel the majority won't,  at least their first few times through with new characters.  

     

    I might skip some voice dialog myself along the way, mostly because I do that in other BioWare games because I can read faster than they talk,  but I won't  be skipping everything.  I think most players will know this is a BioWare game though,  and will play , at least some of it,  as they would others.



  • MeowheadMeowhead Member UncommonPosts: 3,716

    Originally posted by maskedweasel

    Most players is a gross overstatement in my estimate.  Sure you'll have people trying to race through the game at launch,  but i feel the majority won't,  at least their first few times through with new characters.  

     

    I might skip some voice dialog myself along the way, mostly because I do that in other BioWare games because I can read faster than they talk,  but I won't  be skipping everything.  I think most players will know this is a BioWare game though,  and will play , at least some of it,  as they would others.

    ... it's about time I heard that from somebody else.

    Last time I said that in an SW:ToR topic, people were treating me like I was some sort of illiterate Philistine who doesn't care about story.

    Just because I prefer to read rather than listen to somebody talk... sheesh.

    Who knew that people who listened to audio books were intellectually superior to those who read old fashioned books?

  • PalebanePalebane Member RarePosts: 4,011

     




    Most players is a gross overstatement in my estimate.


    'Most players' was actually an understatement. What I meant to say was:

     

    Huge majority =)

    Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.

  • DistopiaDistopia Member EpicPosts: 21,183

    Originally posted by Meowhead

    Originally posted by maskedweasel



    Most players is a gross overstatement in my estimate.  Sure you'll have people trying to race through the game at launch,  but i feel the majority won't,  at least their first few times through with new characters.  

     

    I might skip some voice dialog myself along the way, mostly because I do that in other BioWare games because I can read faster than they talk,  but I won't  be skipping everything.  I think most players will know this is a BioWare game though,  and will play , at least some of it,  as they would others.

    ... it's about time I heard that from somebody else.

    Last time I said that in an SW:ToR topic, people were treating me like I was some sort of illiterate Philistine who doesn't care about story.

    Just because I prefer to read rather than listen to somebody talk... sheesh.

    Who knew that people who listened to audio books were intellectually superior to those who read old fashioned books?

    I'm sure plenty do this, hell in kotor i have no clue what wookies were saying to me, I skipped before I could even read I found it so annoying twileks to.

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


  • AgileeAgilee Member Posts: 46

    Originally posted by jpnz

    Originally posted by Creslin321


    Originally posted by jpnz


    Originally posted by Requiamer

    ....
    ,

    In a classic RPG like PS:T, you are typically given the direction of what you have to do by some kind of event/cutscene.  So you'll get a cutscene that basically tells you have to find a hag in order to accomplish your goal.  At this point, you don't know much more, you may have a hint of where you should start looking but that's it.  So you start investigating, talking to NPCs, talking to party members, exploring the city.  Eventually you will get some more clues of what you have to do, and oftentimes you have to put together information or items you receive from multiple sources to come to a solution.

    Figuring out what to do can be a very rewarding process.  You feel like an actual detective trying to put all the pieces of a puzzle together.  Imagine how horrible PS:T would have been if everytime you get a quest, the game would just instruct you on what exactly to do like WoW.  It would basically be like you are just reading the walkthrough as you play.  It would kill the mystery!

    That's the problem with WoW quests.  They tell you EXACTLY what to do and where to do it the second you get the quest!  It trivializes the entire process.  If the quests were designed so that you actually had to do some kind of investigation and problem solving to accomplish them they would be SOOOO much more rewarding.

    But the problem with this is that MMORPGs are so focused on getting max level NOW NOW NOW that people would just read walkthroughs anyway.  So basically, I just don't think that single player-esque questing is as interesting in MMORPGs.  So long as the drive to achieve max level quickly is there, the questing just devolves into a bunch of chores.

    Vanilla WoW quests had lots of quests that didn't tell you exactly where everything was.

    You are putting the cart before the horse here though.

    Players want the 'max level NOW' because they don't give a damn about the quests in MMOs.

    SWTOR is all about asking 'can we make them give a damn?'

    This is certainly the first MMO where the 'story' takes a front seat rather than your traditional MMO designs.

    It is almost too simple really. If players loved to go and kill countless Zombies/Rats/Dragons/Vampire etc by pressing buttons in Dragon Age: Origins or 1000s of other RPGs, why don't they enjoy it in an MMO?

    Yea see the problem with that.. is what jpnz said. In vanilla, and BC, every quest told you " a sense of direction". That pissed a lot of people off, including me, as i found my self not understanding where the hell im suppose to find my quest items. Thats why there was a website invented, "thottbott" where if you didnt understand where to go, you would copy and paste the quest and it would tell you were to find it on a map. There were even add ons that people downloaded that were extremely lazy and guess what blizzard just made it easier on everyone and added it inside the game. They do this alot, for example even now in 4.2 the newest patch, the addon called "atlas loot" is being obsolete by blizzards dungeon journal.

    So yea, the problem still is like you said most people want to do it quickly, but from what i remember, I was completely lost sometimes because blizzards quest texts said "hey i need this" and its like what? where the hell is that. Some of the quests did that and most didnt, thats why they just added their quest helper inside the game. Dam, i feel like i left something out but its too early.

  • NeVeRLiFtNeVeRLiFt Member UncommonPosts: 380

    Originally posted by Malickie

    Originally posted by Palebane

    I find this very ironic, as most players will probably skip the story completely in thier voracious race to the finish line, just to start pedaling away on the gear treadmill.

    Who cares about those people? They do it in every game why is TOR going to be any different for them? These people need to go back to diablo.

     

    Why does TOR have chasing the carrot for gear as it's only end-game content?

    Looks like with all the money they spent and all the bigheads working on this Starwars mmo .... they could come up with something better for the end-game than just the treadmill of chasing gear.

    Played: MCO - EQ/EQ2 - WoW - VG - WAR - AoC - LoTRO - DDO - GW/GW2 - Eve - Rift - FE - TSW - TSO - WS - ESO - AA - BD
    Playing: Sims 3 & 4, Diablo3 and PoE
    Waiting on: Lost Ark
    Who's going to make a Cyberpunk MMO?

  • drake201drake201 Member Posts: 75

    From what I have read, gamer's problem with the game are almost always insane and unreasonable.



    Such as those that say story is forced on em, if the game had as many routes of choices that they wish, the game would take decades to produce.



    Or those that say they want a sandbox, thing is there has never been an mmo sandbox that was done well and was profitable. Most of the time they just throw as much as they can into the game without balancing it with progression.



    Or those that have a problem with the combat system in rpgs. Listen up there is a reason why this rpg system is used in almost all rpgs, because hands down it is the best. The main problem about innovating in the combat system is the peripherals we use to play games. Can you swing your sword with your mouse while hitting 20+ keys on your keyboard, nope the majority of casual players cannot. Then controllers are even far more limited then keyboards.



    So you have three options in your how to play your rpg



    Shooter mmo which is what fallen earth,apb and warhammer dark are doing.Then the standard rpg with many abilities which is used in every rpg from from mmos to handheld ds games. Then finally a small action bar that only uses 6 abilities which is what Dcuo and Guild wars 2 are using except in guild wars 2 the player will have multiple weapons and when switching weapons it changes the abilities on bar. I'm not a fan of small number of abilities and think guildwars 2 will become quite repetitive like how dcuo did. If you like playing simple action games then that may work for you.



    The rpg combat system will not change until peripherals are improved.

  • drake201drake201 Member Posts: 75

    Gear is not the main concern for our community we rather have story then some worthless pixels.

  • GreenHellGreenHell Member UncommonPosts: 1,323

    Originally posted by drake201

    Gear is not the main concern for our community we rather have story then some worthless pixels.

    Who is your community? Is it the people that will hit max level in a day or 2 after launch? Do you really think that after a few months any one will care about the same old story or will they be chasing after thoese "worthless pixels"?

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