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A list of real world military tactics

Nerf09Nerf09 Phoenix, AZPosts: 2,953Member

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_military_tactics

 

Why I subscribed to

-WWIIONLINE for 5 years

-Planetside for 8 months

-only WOW for 4 months

 

Tactics depth and richness (player created content), not Progression, kept my interest.

When I got bored of playing frontal assault 24/7 in WWIIONLINE I was one of the first players to pioneer the idea of getting a 2nd account to tow around an 88 anti tank gun and position myself between towns to kill resupplying allied players.   Tactics:  Interdiction, Perfidy, Reconnaissance (Sometimes enemy players would pass me way out of range and I would relay this information to friendlies), Shoot and Scoot, Infiltration, Patrol, Ambush

And when I got bored of that I was one of the first players to pioneer the idea of towing a bofors anti aircraft gun up to the opposite side of the battle at an enemy town, the least likely place enemy players would locate me, yet the closest I could get.  This is where enemy planes were going low and slow circling their town thinking they were safe.  Tactics:  Interdiction, Perfidy, Recon, Infiltration, Ambush....

Eventually after enough players started doing that enemy planes became pretty damn efficient in hunting down interdicters, bombing and straffing them.  Tactics:  Defense in depth, air, recon.

So I tried using the StugB as a mobile artillery piece, while my 2nd account was used as a foward observer artillery spotter.  But learned after a few practices that it's innefective due to engine limitations (no kills or even damaging enemies above certain extreme long distances).  Tactics denied:  Artillery

I was one of the first to drive my 2nd account as rifleman to enemy airfield to spot enemy planes taking off and landing while my 1st account in an interceptor flew around out of range waiting for enemies to take off so I could kill them while climbing to altitude.  (I was not cheating, my 2nd account was not on enemy team)  Tactics:  Interdiction, recon, shoot and scoot,

Believe it or not it took me 3 years of playing before I learned the importance of Hull Down tank combat.  This wasn't a skill I progressively trained it was a tactic that I learned that had always been available to me since day 1.

 

Planetside.

When I got bored of playing frontal assault 24/7 in Planetside I tried playing the cloaker minefield layer.  Tactics: minefield

When I got bored of that and learned a little more about player zerg behavior I would place an AMS between enemy town and frontline, and then started placing minefields at bridges and terrain bottlenecks.  This wasn't entirely effective cause usually tanks would stop before being destroyed and the driver would hop out and toss some EMP grenades to clear out mines, so I would then have to place myself at the end of the minefield to shoot the tank when the driver got out.  However even when all things ran smoothly after the first kill my AMS would somehow magically get spotted, probably by using reveal enemies.  Tactics denied:  Interdiction, minefield, force multiplication through defense

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Comments

  • SioBabbleSioBabble Eugene, ORPosts: 2,803Member

    Replicating RW military individual tactics is highly dependent on how "real" the virtual world is.  For example. can you get into a gully and have defilade protection from enemy fire?  Will the gully give you LOS protection from without, while allowing you LOS abilities outwards?

    SWG has all these gullies on Corellia and Tattoine that appear to offer you the ability to fire without exposing yourself, but the world engine during the pre CU period wasn't able to translate what you saw on the screen into a reality that affected combat, particularly LOS issues.  The rifleman profession probably came the closest to reality in that if you were in the prone position (three possible positions in the game: prone, kneeling, standing) you had a great deal of advantage over your target in terms of accuracy and visiblity.  Of course, if some melee type managed to find you, they'd have an attack bonus against you as you were much more vulnerable to melee attacks...you'd need to rapidly change your stance to shed that disadvantage.

    If the world engine can support it, and the combat system allows for it (no such luck in WoW...it's highly ritualistic in its approach to combat) you can adapt individual and small unit tactics to the game.  If not...well, find out what the game allows and adapt as best you can.

    CH, Jedi, Commando, Smuggler, BH, Scout, Doctor, Chef, BE...yeah, lots of SWG time invested.

    Once a denizen of Ahazi

  • MazinMazin Jacksonville, FLPosts: 640Member

    ummm  O K

  • RhoklawRhoklaw Ft. Bliss, TXPosts: 3,480Member Uncommon

    @OP - I already see a problem with your experience in MMOs and that is you can't rely on anyone but yourself for doing what you're suppose to.

    I'm not saying everyone playing MMO's is ignorant. Most guilds aren't that bad, but any game that utilizes PUGs in any degree incorporate the worst group tactic of all, inexperienced players trying to accomplish the same mission and they all want to do it their way.

    After playing WoW and using their new dungeon finder, it didn't take long before I got fed up with 3/5 kicks from group for stupid reasons, not to mention all the 1 death rage quits. Some people like PUGs, maybe because they have 0 social skills, who knows.

    I agree with you about everything you wrote, but trying to get people to follow a leader and either do their role correctly or listen to orders, is next to impossible in this industry of twits and potty mouth idiots.  It will be a long time before you'll see this kind of thing to any extreme.

    image

  • Nerf09Nerf09 Phoenix, AZPosts: 2,953Member

    Originally posted by SioBabble

    Replicating RW military individual tactics is highly dependent on how "real" the virtual world is.  For example. can you get into a gully and have defilade protection from enemy fire?  Will the gully give you LOS protection from without, while allowing you LOS abilities outwards?

    SWG has all these gullies on Corellia and Tattoine that appear to offer you the ability to fire without exposing yourself, but the world engine during the pre CU period wasn't able to translate what you saw on the screen into a reality that affected combat, particularly LOS issues.  The rifleman profession probably came the closest to reality in that if you were in the prone position (three possible positions in the game: prone, kneeling, standing) you had a great deal of advantage over your target in terms of accuracy and visiblity.  Of course, if some melee type managed to find you, they'd have an attack bonus against you as you were much more vulnerable to melee attacks...you'd need to rapidly change your stance to shed that disadvantage.

    If the world engine can support it, and the combat system allows for it (no such luck in WoW...it's highly ritualistic in its approach to combat) you can adapt individual and small unit tactics to the game.  If not...well, find out what the game allows and adapt as best you can.

    Funny you should mention SWG.  I remember making a post in SWG forums, when it first came out, saying something to the effect that SWG has a great terrain with so many peaks and valleys to provide a rich tactical environment yet bullets go through the terrain making it pretty much useless factor in combat.  It's like the terrain didn't exist and you're just floating around, and the only thing that matters is distance.

  • Nerf09Nerf09 Phoenix, AZPosts: 2,953Member

    Start up Battlefield 2.  Tactics available:  Frontal Assault.  ho hum.  You know that gets boring after a while, doing the same thing over and over again.  yaknow yaknow yaknow

    In BF2 you do Frontal Assault with sniper, Frontal Assault with support, Frontal Assault with medic, Frontal Assault with tank.  Ho hum.

  • SioBabbleSioBabble Eugene, ORPosts: 2,803Member

    Originally posted by Rhoklaw

    @OP - I already see a problem with your experience in MMOs and that is you can't rely on anyone but yourself for doing what you're suppose to.

    I'm not saying everyone playing MMO's is ignorant. Most guilds aren't that bad, but any game that utilizes PUGs in any degree incorporate the worst group tactic of all, inexperienced players trying to accomplish the same mission and they all want to do it their way.

    After playing WoW and using their new dungeon finder, it didn't take long before I got fed up with 3/5 kicks from group for stupid reasons, not to mention all the 1 death rage quits. Some people like PUGs, maybe because they have 0 social skills, who knows.

    I agree with you about everything you wrote, but trying to get people to follow a leader and either do their role correctly or listen to orders, is next to impossible in this industry of twits and potty mouth idiots.  It will be a long time before you'll see this kind of thing to any extreme.

    This is an interesting observation, one that I find myself in agreement with.  The best WoW raiding guilds attack an instance as a drill.  They get each fight down to a science, and against an AI, that's fully possible.  What the developers do is create a puzzle you have to solve, and pounding against it, learning from each wipe, as a group, leads eventually to success.  Furthermore, they commit a great deal of time to doing this...on a regular basis with no excuses for missing a session.  It's like being in the Army again...as one of my guildies (a retired CSM) has observed.

    It's interesting how some view a "pre made" BG group as some sort of exploit.  Well, duh.  It's what actual armies do when going into battle.  You train together, as a unit, and if possible you rehearse your attack before you do it for real.  In an MMO this gives you a decisive advantage over a PUG assembled from who knows where, people who never play together, most likely from different servers.   You can't know in a PUG how well these individuals know their class' skillsets,  If you premake a BG team, you know, like IRL, you're going to get better results, because people know how much the other people on the team know because they've practiced this before.

    And you're also right in that this kind of discipline rubs a lot of people the wrong way.  In my guild we have a few military vets and we're always bemoaning how these "civilians" play the game...but also how to be really good at raiding you have to do the drills...and most of us USED to do that sort of thing and are here to have fun, not to drill :P

    CH, Jedi, Commando, Smuggler, BH, Scout, Doctor, Chef, BE...yeah, lots of SWG time invested.

    Once a denizen of Ahazi

  • Nerf09Nerf09 Phoenix, AZPosts: 2,953Member

    Originally posted by SioBabble

    Originally posted by Rhoklaw

    @OP - I already see a problem with your experience in MMOs and that is you can't rely on anyone but yourself for doing what you're suppose to.

    I'm not saying everyone playing MMO's is ignorant. Most guilds aren't that bad, but any game that utilizes PUGs in any degree incorporate the worst group tactic of all, inexperienced players trying to accomplish the same mission and they all want to do it their way.

    After playing WoW and using their new dungeon finder, it didn't take long before I got fed up with 3/5 kicks from group for stupid reasons, not to mention all the 1 death rage quits. Some people like PUGs, maybe because they have 0 social skills, who knows.

    I agree with you about everything you wrote, but trying to get people to follow a leader and either do their role correctly or listen to orders, is next to impossible in this industry of twits and potty mouth idiots.  It will be a long time before you'll see this kind of thing to any extreme.

    This is an interesting observation, one that I find myself in agreement with.  The best WoW raiding guilds attack an instance as a drill.  They get each fight down to a science, and against an AI, that's fully possible.  What the developers do is create a puzzle you have to solve, and pounding against it, learning from each wipe, as a group, leads eventually to success.

    It's interesting how some view a "pre made" BG group as some sort of exploit.  Well, duh.  It's what actual armies do when going into battle.  You train together, as a unit, and if possible you rehearse your attack before you do it for real.  In an MMO this gives you a decisive advantage over a PUG assembled from who knows where, people who never play together, most likely from different servers.   You can't know in a PUG how well these individuals know their class' skillsets,  If you premake a BG team, you know, like IRL, you're going to get better results, because people know how much the other people on the team know because they've practiced this before.

    And you're also right in that this kind of discipline rubs a lot of people the wrong way.  In my guild we have a few military vets and we're always bemoaning how these "civilians" play the game...but also how to be really good at raiding you have to do the drills...and most of us USED to do that sort of thing and are here to have fun, not to drill :P

    I don't see how WOW fits into this.  You can't out-think your opponent in WOW, you can only out-grind your opponent.

  • SioBabbleSioBabble Eugene, ORPosts: 2,803Member

    Originally posted by Nerf09

    I don't see how WOW fits into this.  You can't out-think your opponent in WOW, you can only out-grind your opponent.

    If you're talking about PvE, yes.  But teamwork is vital even in PvE, and that's what we're talking about in this case, as opposed to your emphasis on tactics.  It's even more important in PvP, even with WoW"s highly ritualized and artificial combat system.

    These are two different, but related issues with MMOs.  One is about the virutal world and what works and does not work compared to RL, which is about tactics.  However, the social aspect of group play isn't dependent on the world engine's virtues or flaws.  Getting people to follow orders when you have no real means to force the issue (by inflicting serious hurt on them, in terms of locking them up in a stockade or docking their pay) is difficult to say the least.  If they don't want to be there, they'll just exit the group right in the middle of a fight....after they looted the shiny they ere there for.  Or if the fight isn't going as easy as they expected.  There is no military discipline in an online world, and that will frustrate your attempts to replicate actual combat conditions.

    CH, Jedi, Commando, Smuggler, BH, Scout, Doctor, Chef, BE...yeah, lots of SWG time invested.

    Once a denizen of Ahazi

  • Nerf09Nerf09 Phoenix, AZPosts: 2,953Member

    Originally posted by SioBabble

    Originally posted by Nerf09

    I don't see how WOW fits into this.  You can't out-think your opponent in WOW, you can only out-grind your opponent.

    If you're talking about PvE, yes.  But teamwork is vital even in PvE, and that's what we're talking about in this case, as opposed to your emphasis on tactics.  It's even more important in PvP, even with WoW"s highly ritualized and artificial combat system.

    These are two different, but related issues with MMOs.  One is about the virutal world and what works and does not work compared to RL, which is about tactics.  However, the social aspect of group play isn't dependent on the world engine's virtues or flaws.  Getting people to follow orders when you have no real means to force the issue (by inflicting serious hurt on them, in terms of locking them up in a stockade or docking their pay) is difficult to say the least.  If they don't want to be there, they'll just exit the group right in the middle of a fight....after they looted the shiny they ere there for.  Or if the fight isn't going as easy as they expected.  There is no military discipline in an online world, and that will frustrate your attempts to replicate actual combat conditions.

    There is no tactics in WOW, PVE and PVP outcomes are predetermined.

  • luciusETRURluciusETRUR Lewisville, TXPosts: 442Member

    Originally posted by Nerf09

    Originally posted by SioBabble


    Originally posted by Nerf09

    I don't see how WOW fits into this.  You can't out-think your opponent in WOW, you can only out-grind your opponent.

    If you're talking about PvE, yes.  But teamwork is vital even in PvE, and that's what we're talking about in this case, as opposed to your emphasis on tactics.  It's even more important in PvP, even with WoW"s highly ritualized and artificial combat system.

    These are two different, but related issues with MMOs.  One is about the virutal world and what works and does not work compared to RL, which is about tactics.  However, the social aspect of group play isn't dependent on the world engine's virtues or flaws.  Getting people to follow orders when you have no real means to force the issue (by inflicting serious hurt on them, in terms of locking them up in a stockade or docking their pay) is difficult to say the least.  If they don't want to be there, they'll just exit the group right in the middle of a fight....after they looted the shiny they ere there for.  Or if the fight isn't going as easy as they expected.  There is no military discipline in an online world, and that will frustrate your attempts to replicate actual combat conditions.

    There is no tactics in WOW, PVE and PVP outcomes are predetermined.

    Wait.. what? No tactics whatsoever? Am I reading this right?

    image

  • RhoklawRhoklaw Ft. Bliss, TXPosts: 3,480Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by luciusETRUR

    Originally posted by Nerf09


    Originally posted by SioBabble


    Originally posted by Nerf09

    I don't see how WOW fits into this.  You can't out-think your opponent in WOW, you can only out-grind your opponent.

    If you're talking about PvE, yes.  But teamwork is vital even in PvE, and that's what we're talking about in this case, as opposed to your emphasis on tactics.  It's even more important in PvP, even with WoW"s highly ritualized and artificial combat system.

    These are two different, but related issues with MMOs.  One is about the virutal world and what works and does not work compared to RL, which is about tactics.  However, the social aspect of group play isn't dependent on the world engine's virtues or flaws.  Getting people to follow orders when you have no real means to force the issue (by inflicting serious hurt on them, in terms of locking them up in a stockade or docking their pay) is difficult to say the least.  If they don't want to be there, they'll just exit the group right in the middle of a fight....after they looted the shiny they ere there for.  Or if the fight isn't going as easy as they expected.  There is no military discipline in an online world, and that will frustrate your attempts to replicate actual combat conditions.

    There is no tactics in WOW, PVE and PVP outcomes are predetermined.

    Wait.. what? No tactics whatsoever? Am I reading this right?

    Unfortunately you are reading it right. However, he doesn't seem to realize a premade BG or PvP team will win 10 out of 10 battles against a PUG team unless the game randoms throw a curve ball and give the premade team some poor luck results, as in minimal crits and maximum resists / misses.

    image

  • luciusETRURluciusETRUR Lewisville, TXPosts: 442Member

    Originally posted by Rhoklaw

    Originally posted by luciusETRUR


    Originally posted by Nerf09


    Originally posted by SioBabble


    Originally posted by Nerf09

    I don't see how WOW fits into this.  You can't out-think your opponent in WOW, you can only out-grind your opponent.

    If you're talking about PvE, yes.  But teamwork is vital even in PvE, and that's what we're talking about in this case, as opposed to your emphasis on tactics.  It's even more important in PvP, even with WoW"s highly ritualized and artificial combat system.

    These are two different, but related issues with MMOs.  One is about the virutal world and what works and does not work compared to RL, which is about tactics.  However, the social aspect of group play isn't dependent on the world engine's virtues or flaws.  Getting people to follow orders when you have no real means to force the issue (by inflicting serious hurt on them, in terms of locking them up in a stockade or docking their pay) is difficult to say the least.  If they don't want to be there, they'll just exit the group right in the middle of a fight....after they looted the shiny they ere there for.  Or if the fight isn't going as easy as they expected.  There is no military discipline in an online world, and that will frustrate your attempts to replicate actual combat conditions.

    There is no tactics in WOW, PVE and PVP outcomes are predetermined.

    Wait.. what? No tactics whatsoever? Am I reading this right?

    Unfortunately you are reading it right. However, he doesn't seem to realize a premade BG or PvP team will win 10 out of 10 battles against a PUG team unless the game randoms throw a curve ball and give the premade team some poor luck results, as in minimal crits and maximum resists / misses.

    Even without the premade vs pug situation. Arena has tactics, Raids have tactics, hell even dungeons do (even tho Blizzard has been phasing that out).. etc. I don't even like WoW, but to say it has NO tactics is absurd.

    image

  • waynejr2waynejr2 West Toluca Lake, CAPosts: 4,473Member Uncommon

    I didn't see Interior Lines on that webpage.

  • Nerf09Nerf09 Phoenix, AZPosts: 2,953Member

    Originally posted by luciusETRUR

    Originally posted by Nerf09


    Originally posted by SioBabble


    Originally posted by Nerf09

    I don't see how WOW fits into this.  You can't out-think your opponent in WOW, you can only out-grind your opponent.

    If you're talking about PvE, yes.  But teamwork is vital even in PvE, and that's what we're talking about in this case, as opposed to your emphasis on tactics.  It's even more important in PvP, even with WoW"s highly ritualized and artificial combat system.

    These are two different, but related issues with MMOs.  One is about the virutal world and what works and does not work compared to RL, which is about tactics.  However, the social aspect of group play isn't dependent on the world engine's virtues or flaws.  Getting people to follow orders when you have no real means to force the issue (by inflicting serious hurt on them, in terms of locking them up in a stockade or docking their pay) is difficult to say the least.  If they don't want to be there, they'll just exit the group right in the middle of a fight....after they looted the shiny they ere there for.  Or if the fight isn't going as easy as they expected.  There is no military discipline in an online world, and that will frustrate your attempts to replicate actual combat conditions.

    There is no tactics in WOW, PVE and PVP outcomes are predetermined.

    Wait.. what? No tactics whatsoever? Am I reading this right?

    There are zero tactics in wow-clones.

  • Nerf09Nerf09 Phoenix, AZPosts: 2,953Member

    Originally posted by luciusETRUR

    Originally posted by Rhoklaw


    Originally posted by luciusETRUR


    Originally posted by Nerf09


    Originally posted by SioBabble


    Originally posted by Nerf09

    I don't see how WOW fits into this.  You can't out-think your opponent in WOW, you can only out-grind your opponent.

    If you're talking about PvE, yes.  But teamwork is vital even in PvE, and that's what we're talking about in this case, as opposed to your emphasis on tactics.  It's even more important in PvP, even with WoW"s highly ritualized and artificial combat system.

    These are two different, but related issues with MMOs.  One is about the virutal world and what works and does not work compared to RL, which is about tactics.  However, the social aspect of group play isn't dependent on the world engine's virtues or flaws.  Getting people to follow orders when you have no real means to force the issue (by inflicting serious hurt on them, in terms of locking them up in a stockade or docking their pay) is difficult to say the least.  If they don't want to be there, they'll just exit the group right in the middle of a fight....after they looted the shiny they ere there for.  Or if the fight isn't going as easy as they expected.  There is no military discipline in an online world, and that will frustrate your attempts to replicate actual combat conditions.

    There is no tactics in WOW, PVE and PVP outcomes are predetermined.

    Wait.. what? No tactics whatsoever? Am I reading this right?

    Unfortunately you are reading it right. However, he doesn't seem to realize a premade BG or PvP team will win 10 out of 10 battles against a PUG team unless the game randoms throw a curve ball and give the premade team some poor luck results, as in minimal crits and maximum resists / misses.

    Even without the premade vs pug situation. Arena has tactics, Raids have tactics, hell even dungeons do (even tho Blizzard has been phasing that out).. etc. I don't even like WoW, but to say it has NO tactics is absurd.

    Really, what type of tactics are used in WOW. 

    WOW and all the WOW-clones play like Super Mario Brothers or Donky Kong, where you follow a set pattern exactly, or you die; even when PVP..  There are no tactics.

  • JaggaSpikesJaggaSpikes LabinPosts: 421Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Nerf09

    ...

    Really, what type of tactics are used in WOW. 

    WOW and all the WOW-clones play like Super Mario Brothers or Donky Kong, where you follow a set pattern exactly, or you die; even when PVP..  There are no tactics.

    you think officers go to military schools for show? studying, learning, drill, training, discipline. stake and scope may be different, but approach is the same. that's why some people rolfstomp through instances, while others stagger around like headless chicken. i'm not saying either approach is better (After all, it's just a game), but there is enormous difference in quality of players. putting everyone in the same basket is rather shortsighted.

  • luciusETRURluciusETRUR Lewisville, TXPosts: 442Member


    Originally posted by Nerf09



    Originally posted by luciusETRUR


    Originally posted by Rhoklaw


    Originally posted by luciusETRUR


    Originally posted by Nerf09


    Originally posted by SioBabble


    Originally posted by Nerf09



    I don't see how WOW fits into this.  You can't out-think your opponent in WOW, you can only out-grind your opponent.



    If you're talking about PvE, yes.  But teamwork is vital even in PvE, and that's what we're talking about in this case, as opposed to your emphasis on tactics.  It's even more important in PvP, even with WoW"s highly ritualized and artificial combat system.
    These are two different, but related issues with MMOs.  One is about the virutal world and what works and does not work compared to RL, which is about tactics.  However, the social aspect of group play isn't dependent on the world engine's virtues or flaws.  Getting people to follow orders when you have no real means to force the issue (by inflicting serious hurt on them, in terms of locking them up in a stockade or docking their pay) is difficult to say the least.  If they don't want to be there, they'll just exit the group right in the middle of a fight....after they looted the shiny they ere there for.  Or if the fight isn't going as easy as they expected.  There is no military discipline in an online world, and that will frustrate your attempts to replicate actual combat conditions.

    There is no tactics in WOW, PVE and PVP outcomes are predetermined.

    Wait.. what? No tactics whatsoever? Am I reading this right?

    Unfortunately you are reading it right. However, he doesn't seem to realize a premade BG or PvP team will win 10 out of 10 battles against a PUG team unless the game randoms throw a curve ball and give the premade team some poor luck results, as in minimal crits and maximum resists / misses.

    Even without the premade vs pug situation. Arena has tactics, Raids have tactics, hell even dungeons do (even tho Blizzard has been phasing that out).. etc. I don't even like WoW, but to say it has NO tactics is absurd.

    Really, what type of tactics are used in WOW. 
    WOW and all the WOW-clones play like Super Mario Brothers or Donky Kong, where you follow a set pattern exactly, or you die; even when PVP..  There are no tactics.

     

    For me to win this, I just have to state one example. Whenever you choose as a healer to dispel a buff, dispel a debuff on a friendly or heal you are using tactics.

    image

  • SioBabbleSioBabble Eugene, ORPosts: 2,803Member

    Of course there are tactics in WoW, and WoW clones.

    Those tactics more often than not have nothing to do with real world tactics.  But even Super Mario brothers has a manner of play that can be, loosely, described as "tactics."

    There are definitely tactical and strategic decisions being made in both group PvE and group PvP encounters in any MMORPG.  Their relationship to real world mlitary tactics are tenuous, at best, because real world military tactics are applied with the ultimate physics engine's rules in place.  In my first post, I alluded to this...that you're not going to see real world tactics applied in a virtual world that doesn't replicate real world physics.  WoW and WoW clones hardly qualify on that basis.

    You see players attempting to exploit quirks in the world engine all the time in WoW.  It's pure gamesmanship.  Soldiers attempt to do this in RL, too.  The thing is, there is no crew of developers working to create balance in RL.

    You play in the world you're given.   Actual application of RL military tactics is not going to happen if the world you're in has things like mobs that can shoot through walls and you can't shoot through walls back.  Not to mention that melee combat simply doesn't exist in RL warfare.  A long time back I posted about this, how military theorists imagined that the decisive moment in battle, up to WWI, would be "cold steel"...that is, a bayonet charge.  The reality however had overcome military theorists who were not paying attention to what rifled muskets, breech loading, and cartridges did to ranged combat in the American Civil War.  The theorists who travelled to the battlefields assumed that the Napoleonic tactics of the early 19th Century would be seen on the battlefields of America.  The increased firepower that rifled muskets, breach loaders, and cartridges made possible changed the way battles were fought.  The entire siege of Petersburg was a sneak peek at trench warfare as was seen in WWI.  With the "holy trinity" of the MMO in place, with melee still having a role in it where in RL it vanished nearly a century ago, even in theory...

    So, yes, most MMO combat has very little to do with RL combat.  Which means that you're not going to see the sort of application of military tactics to MMOs.  For one thing, in RL, it's boom headshot (or bodyshot) all the time.  Which doesn't make for a very entertaining game.

    CH, Jedi, Commando, Smuggler, BH, Scout, Doctor, Chef, BE...yeah, lots of SWG time invested.

    Once a denizen of Ahazi

  • Shoko_LiedShoko_Lied -, WAPosts: 2,080Member Uncommon

    OP was ok. I have little tolerance for slow players when I am in a guild or outfit that attempts to discipline in tactical roles such as Air calvary.

    But I couldn't help making the largest facepalm in history after reading his one-liner responses.

    WoW is pre-structured. Simple, right? Yes. If you want to do well, then be perfect at following the structure. Easy? No this is impossible unless you play with people who are good at mmo's and have a similar dedication to you. In essence, following the construct requires discipline and when you do that you put yourself above most players.

    The military is similar. You don't make autonomous gut calls on where to take your M1A2. You follow orders from a well constructed calvary. Which is part of a well constructed regiment.

  • Nerf09Nerf09 Phoenix, AZPosts: 2,953Member

    Originally posted by spinner_vis

    Originally posted by Nerf09


    ...

    Really, what type of tactics are used in WOW. 

    WOW and all the WOW-clones play like Super Mario Brothers or Donky Kong, where you follow a set pattern exactly, or you die; even when PVP..  There are no tactics.

    you think officers go to military schools for show? studying, learning, drill, training, discipline. stake and scope may be different, but approach is the same. that's why some people rolfstomp through instances, while others stagger around like headless chicken. i'm not saying either approach is better (After all, it's just a game), but there is enormous difference in quality of players. putting everyone in the same basket is rather shortsighted.

    That's nice, but WOW and all the WOW-clones have no tactics and there is no need to bring anything about those games into a disgussion about a MMOFPS.

  • Nerf09Nerf09 Phoenix, AZPosts: 2,953Member

    Originally posted by denshing

    OP was ok. I have little tolerance for slow players when I am in a guild or outfit that attempts to discipline in tactical roles such as Air calvary.

    But I couldn't help making the largest facepalm in history after reading his one-liner responses.

    WoW is pre-structured. Simple, right? Yes. If you want to do well, then be perfect at following the structure. Easy? No this is impossible unless you play with people who are good at mmo's and have a similar dedication to you. In essence, following the construct requires discipline and when you do that you put yourself above most players.

    The military is similar. You don't make autonomous gut calls on where to take your M1A2. You follow orders from a well constructed calvary. Which is part of a well constructed regiment.

    There is discipline in Super Mario Brothers but I wouldn't call that a tactic, and neither would I bring Super Mario Brothers up in a disgussion about Planetside.

  • Nerf09Nerf09 Phoenix, AZPosts: 2,953Member

    Originally posted by SioBabble

    Of course there are tactics in WoW, and WoW clones.

    Those tactics more often than not have nothing to do with real world tactics.  But even Super Mario brothers has a manner of play that can be, loosely, described as "tactics."

    No, it can't.

    There are definitely tactical and strategic decisions being made in both group PvE and group PvP encounters in any MMORPG.  No there aren't. Their relationship to real world mlitary tactics are tenuous, at best, because real world military tactics are applied with the ultimate physics engine's rules in place.  In my first post, I alluded to this...that you're not going to see real world tactics applied in a virtual world that doesn't replicate real world physics.  WoW and WoW clones hardly qualify on that basis.

    You see players attempting to exploit quirks in the world engine all the time in WoW.  It's pure gamesmanship.  Soldiers attempt to do this in RL, too.  The thing is, there is no crew of developers working to create balance in RL.

    God.

    You play in the world you're given.   Actual application of RL military tactics is not going to happen if the world you're in has things like mobs that can shoot through walls and you can't shoot through walls back.  Not to mention that melee combat simply doesn't exist in RL warfare.  Melee combat doesn't exist in RL warfare huh.  A long time back I posted about this, how military theorists imagined that the decisive moment in battle, up to WWI, would be "cold steel"...that is, a bayonet charge.  The reality however had overcome military theorists who were not paying attention to what rifled muskets, breech loading, and cartridges did to ranged combat in the American Civil War.  The theorists who travelled to the battlefields assumed that the Napoleonic tactics of the early 19th Century would be seen on the battlefields of America.  The increased firepower that rifled muskets, breach loaders, and cartridges made possible changed the way battles were fought.  The entire siege of Petersburg was a sneak peek at trench warfare as was seen in WWI.  With the "holy trinity" of the MMO in place, with melee still having a role in it where in RL it vanished nearly a century ago, even in theory...  Oh so WOW is fake cause they use tanks, I see, hmmm, interesting.

    So, yes, most MMO combat has very little to do with RL combat.  Which means that you're not going to see the sort of application of military tactics to MMOs.  For one thing, in RL, it's boom headshot (or bodyshot) all the time.  Which doesn't make for a very entertaining game.  And what does that have to do with tactics?

  • Nerf09Nerf09 Phoenix, AZPosts: 2,953Member

    Originally posted by luciusETRUR

     




    Originally posted by Nerf09

     

     






    Originally posted by luciusETRUR






    Originally posted by Rhoklaw








    Originally posted by luciusETRUR








    Originally posted by Nerf09








    Originally posted by SioBabble








    Originally posted by Nerf09











    I don't see how WOW fits into this.  You can't out-think your opponent in WOW, you can only out-grind your opponent.














    If you're talking about PvE, yes.  But teamwork is vital even in PvE, and that's what we're talking about in this case, as opposed to your emphasis on tactics.  It's even more important in PvP, even with WoW"s highly ritualized and artificial combat system.

    These are two different, but related issues with MMOs.  One is about the virutal world and what works and does not work compared to RL, which is about tactics.  However, the social aspect of group play isn't dependent on the world engine's virtues or flaws.  Getting people to follow orders when you have no real means to force the issue (by inflicting serious hurt on them, in terms of locking them up in a stockade or docking their pay) is difficult to say the least.  If they don't want to be there, they'll just exit the group right in the middle of a fight....after they looted the shiny they ere there for.  Or if the fight isn't going as easy as they expected.  There is no military discipline in an online world, and that will frustrate your attempts to replicate actual combat conditions.






    There is no tactics in WOW, PVE and PVP outcomes are predetermined.






    Wait.. what? No tactics whatsoever? Am I reading this right?






    Unfortunately you are reading it right. However, he doesn't seem to realize a premade BG or PvP team will win 10 out of 10 battles against a PUG team unless the game randoms throw a curve ball and give the premade team some poor luck results, as in minimal crits and maximum resists / misses.






    Even without the premade vs pug situation. Arena has tactics, Raids have tactics, hell even dungeons do (even tho Blizzard has been phasing that out).. etc. I don't even like WoW, but to say it has NO tactics is absurd.





    Really, what type of tactics are used in WOW. 

    WOW and all the WOW-clones play like Super Mario Brothers or Donky Kong, where you follow a set pattern exactly, or you die; even when PVP..  There are no tactics.






     

     

    For me to win this, I just have to state one example. Whenever you choose as a healer to dispel a buff, dispel a debuff on a friendly or heal you are using tactics.

    That is not a tactic.

  • Nerf09Nerf09 Phoenix, AZPosts: 2,953Member

    There are no tactics in those games, you are no veteran, and playing a video game doen't make you Rommel.

    I amstating a fact that giving a player another class, or more levels, or more shiny swords, to do the same tactic over and over again Frontal Assault isn't going to keep them interested and subscribed.  How many threads at mmorpg.com do you want me to point you towards that proves this point at how bored players are of the same-o same-o.

    So how do you make recon a viable playstyle, a viable tactic?  Well first thing you do is not have "reveal enemies", and 2nd you need to let the player communicate their findings by being able to mark the map, or draw on the map.

    So how do you make interdiction a viable playstyle?  Well the first think you do is allow players to be able to stealthily move towards the enemy rear in one way or another, having a tiny BF2 map where there are far too many chokepoints on such a small map makes it too hard to reach the enemy rear on foot.  Second thing you need to do is have something to interdict.

    So how do you make Force Concentration a viable playstyle?  Well first you need to allow players to make defense a viable playstyle where 1 player can hold off 2 players, so that 1 extra player on even teams can concentrate their forces on an attack somewhere else.

    So how do you make minefield a viable playstyle?  Well first you don't give players an I-win button that destroys a wide radius of all CE.

    So how do you make highground a viable playstyle?  You don't create impassable barriers everywhere.

    So how do you make ambush a viable playstyle?  First you don't have "reveal enemies", second you need concealment.

    So how do you make armored spearhead or Blitzkrieg a viable playstyle?  First you need to be able to group up tanks/planes in a small area that isn't always being OS'ed all the time.

    How do you make pincer a viable playstyle?  First you need an AMS that lasts longer than 2 minutes and isn't being OS'ed all the time.

    These typical FPS shoebox games are a MIRACLE!!!  They have none of this!

     

     

     

     

     

     

    Here is a list of viable playstyles or viable tactics in Planetside1, although most are very ineffective to the point where nobody uses them: 

    -Frontal Assault (95% of battles are these)

    -Artillery (almost never used, OS doesn't count, it's a lame I-win button)

    -Counter Artillery (never seen it used, but available)

    -Vertical envelopment

    -Tank Desant (tanks and planes being used as transport vehicles)

    -Counter Attack

    -Raiding (blow generator, but many see this as being cheesy)

     

  • luciusETRURluciusETRUR Lewisville, TXPosts: 442Member

    Originally posted by Nerf09

    Originally posted by luciusETRUR

     




    Originally posted by Nerf09

     

     






    Originally posted by luciusETRUR






    Originally posted by Rhoklaw








    Originally posted by luciusETRUR








    Originally posted by Nerf09








    Originally posted by SioBabble








    Originally posted by Nerf09











    I don't see how WOW fits into this.  You can't out-think your opponent in WOW, you can only out-grind your opponent.














    If you're talking about PvE, yes.  But teamwork is vital even in PvE, and that's what we're talking about in this case, as opposed to your emphasis on tactics.  It's even more important in PvP, even with WoW"s highly ritualized and artificial combat system.

    These are two different, but related issues with MMOs.  One is about the virutal world and what works and does not work compared to RL, which is about tactics.  However, the social aspect of group play isn't dependent on the world engine's virtues or flaws.  Getting people to follow orders when you have no real means to force the issue (by inflicting serious hurt on them, in terms of locking them up in a stockade or docking their pay) is difficult to say the least.  If they don't want to be there, they'll just exit the group right in the middle of a fight....after they looted the shiny they ere there for.  Or if the fight isn't going as easy as they expected.  There is no military discipline in an online world, and that will frustrate your attempts to replicate actual combat conditions.






    There is no tactics in WOW, PVE and PVP outcomes are predetermined.






    Wait.. what? No tactics whatsoever? Am I reading this right?






    Unfortunately you are reading it right. However, he doesn't seem to realize a premade BG or PvP team will win 10 out of 10 battles against a PUG team unless the game randoms throw a curve ball and give the premade team some poor luck results, as in minimal crits and maximum resists / misses.






    Even without the premade vs pug situation. Arena has tactics, Raids have tactics, hell even dungeons do (even tho Blizzard has been phasing that out).. etc. I don't even like WoW, but to say it has NO tactics is absurd.






    Really, what type of tactics are used in WOW. 

    WOW and all the WOW-clones play like Super Mario Brothers or Donky Kong, where you follow a set pattern exactly, or you die; even when PVP..  There are no tactics.







     

     

    For me to win this, I just have to state one example. Whenever you choose as a healer to dispel a buff, dispel a debuff on a friendly or heal you are using tactics.

    That is not a tactic.

    So.. when Jose Mourinho decides to have his team play more defensive against Barcelona he is not using tactics? How is it different? When I dispel a buff I am playing more offensive, the other 2 examples are defensive. You decide these things before you enter the Arena, how will you play against different comps. If there were no tactics, I would play exactly the same everytime and not worry about who I should attack and who I should not attack. 

    Please, explain to me what your definition of tactics is?

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