Really? Up a notch? Maybe I have been watching different videos, but it doesn't seem to be all that much of a notch. Think about it, people have been using movement as a means to improve their survival in mmorpgs since mmorpgs came out. So you don't have to stop for 0.5 - 2.0 seconds it takes to cast a spell, fire an arrow, or whatever. Big deal.
As if for some reason having unrestricted movement makes the game more tactical. I contend that when you had to actually time spells and actions based on their movement restrictions, the game was more tactical. But yay, now I can move and cast spells in GW2 but still have to contend with global cooldown timers. Oh, and the overwhelming domination of ranged classes in pvp that this type of ability promotes in a game that has auto-targetting.
Lastly, someone mentioned earlier that FPS style games have their own issues with combat that become monotonous after continued use. No different than EQ's original point, click, auto-attack, yawn technique. Bottom line: as much as I like GW2 concept, it is overhyped and will get hurt by that overhype...
You're talking about moving as one aspect of the GW2 combat that doesn't impress you, then bashing the whole system, as if it's the only aspect.
First off, mobs in GW2 will attack differently than in a holy trinity MMO. They are going to try to kill the ones you'd expect mobs to try to kill, the high damage, low armored, more actually threatening people. Taunting doesn't exist in GW2 and the people in the tanking, (or "controlling" role in GW2 terms) won't just have a lock on aggro due to additional threat. More likely, they'll be trying to knock a mob down from behind while it goes for the caster.
In that kind of system, casting while moving is a necessity, not just a convenience.
It goes hand in hand with being able to dodge attacks and projectiles. Warriors can go into a toggled shield stance that blocks projectiles from hitting players behind them. A tank in PVP goes from either being useless or relying on silly mechanics to being a viable shield wall with a mace to stun the guy trying to go around him.
Anyone can rez anybody else at any time in GW2's system. No longer will it just be that someone screwed up, time to call a wipe. It will allow players to battle back and recover from mistakes. Also, it lets mobs do things that would be pretty unfair in a traditional MMO, like hit really hard. We've already seen video of a dynamic event boss 1-shotting a thief who got careless. That isn't even in the dungeons which will be the hard content.
Different classes use weapons differently. A bow in the hands of a ranger is a single target weapon. In the hands of a warrior, it's an AOE weapon. The feel of combat can totally change based on class and weapon, like using a mace for stuns or a greatsword for melee AOE. It's not like other games where any weapon is as good as any other because they're just doing damage.
Weapons and skills change when going underwater. You can't swing a sword so you use a harpoon gun or a trident and get different skills. Fire magic boils the water instead of just acting the same.
Players have multiple weapon sets, kits or attunements so they can switch up their role in combat. You're not locked into being the tank, dps or healer. You can adopt a different role on the fly to adjust to what you need to be doing.
Different classes can work together with cross profession combos. Arrows shot through a fire wall doing extra damage is the most commonly cited example, but there's supposed to be like 100 of them.
I'm not sure if I missed anything. I'm sure someone will help me out if I did. (EDIT, forgot your skillbar changing when you pick up an environmental weapon, dammit)
Anyway, is there any point in the middle of that that GW2 meets the stated goal of kicking combat up a notch?
correct me if im wrong.. but isnt this type of combat almost identical to the type you get in swg right now? moving combat, ranged weapons, melee etc.. about the only difference im seeing is that in swg you get the choice of auto target or aimed target.. and the nge was definitely not 'kicking combat up a notch' in swg either.. seems to me, that gw2 is gw1's nge.. better hope its more popular than the nge was for swg..
You know whats the difference? You can still play GW1, no one is stopping you, but you can't play SWG pre-NGE. You can't NGE something that isn't out.
Its funny to see people in threads talk like the game is released already. Sure, devs has release info about combat, but hating/loving a game that isn't out and speculating based on so little. This isn't a discussion, nor an argument, it is simply your words against mine.
I am going to play GW2, and I hope people who don't like just don't even bother trying the game, I don't want to see people on chat flaming the game, because you know, YOU DON'T NEED A SUBSCRIPTION FOR IT, the barrier is so low the flamers can just shell out $40-50 and flame the game, turns out to be good, and still flame the game.
Doesn't matter if it has only half the P2P mmo content, all I know is that I'm getting my $40 worth. And thats all I really care about.
How much WoW could a WoWhater hate, if a WoWhater could hate WoW? As much WoW as a WoWhater would, if a WoWhater could hate WoW.
correct me if im wrong.. but isnt this type of combat almost identical to the type you get in swg right now? moving combat, ranged weapons, melee etc.. about the only difference im seeing is that in swg you get the choice of auto target or aimed target.. and the nge was definitely not 'kicking combat up a notch' in swg either.. seems to me, that gw2 is gw1's nge.. better hope its more popular than the nge was for swg..
Now allow me to quote myself from the previous pages:
"It's really amazing how people try to break down certain components of Guild Wars 2's combat and say "X game did this, this is not innovative" when the main reason why people like me are excited for the game, is because we take the combat features as a whole. Both land-based and underwater based. I don't care if DCUO or AOC share certain features of GW2's supposed innovative combat, when they don't look fun to play. That's one of the main things a game is supposed to be... fun, and I will certainly have fun, finding creative ways to hit people in the face. Especially in GW2's World v World PvP."
Now all you have to do is replace DCUO with SWG and the point remains the same. People like you keep trying to say a certain game's combat mechanics (in this case, SWG) is identical to GW2 based on what... 2 or 3 similar aspects. it just doesn't work. Instead why don't you check out the gameplay of both games and ask yourself, "which of these games looks more fun and/or enjoyable to play?" In my case I'd answer, "the game that I'll be able to play next year." ^_^
Really? Up a notch? Maybe I have been watching different videos, but it doesn't seem to be all that much of a notch. Think about it, people have been using movement as a means to improve their survival in mmorpgs since mmorpgs came out. So you don't have to stop for 0.5 - 2.0 seconds it takes to cast a spell, fire an arrow, or whatever. Big deal.
As if for some reason having unrestricted movement makes the game more tactical. I contend that when you had to actually time spells and actions based on their movement restrictions, the game was more tactical. But yay, now I can move and cast spells in GW2 but still have to contend with global cooldown timers. Oh, and the overwhelming domination of ranged classes in pvp that this type of ability promotes in a game that has auto-targetting.
Lastly, someone mentioned earlier that FPS style games have their own issues with combat that become monotonous after continued use. No different than EQ's original point, click, auto-attack, yawn technique. Bottom line: as much as I like GW2 concept, it is overhyped and will get hurt by that overhype...
You're talking about moving as one aspect of the GW2 combat that doesn't impress you, then bashing the whole system, as if it's the only aspect.
First off, mobs in GW2 will attack differently than in a holy trinity MMO. They are going to try to kill the ones you'd expect mobs to try to kill, the high damage, low armored, more actually threatening people. Taunting doesn't exist in GW2 and the people in the tanking, (or "controlling" role in GW2 terms) won't just have a lock on aggro due to additional threat. More likely, they'll be trying to knock a mob down from behind while it goes for the caster.
In that kind of system, casting while moving is a necessity, not just a convenience.
It goes hand in hand with being able to dodge attacks and projectiles. Warriors can go into a toggled shield stance that blocks projectiles from hitting players behind them. A tank in PVP goes from either being useless or relying on silly mechanics to being a viable shield wall with a mace to stun the guy trying to go around him.
Anyone can rez anybody else at any time in GW2's system. No longer will it just be that someone screwed up, time to call a wipe. It will allow players to battle back and recover from mistakes. Also, it lets mobs do things that would be pretty unfair in a traditional MMO, like hit really hard. We've already seen video of a dynamic event boss 1-shotting a thief who got careless. That isn't even in the dungeons which will be the hard content.
Different classes use weapons differently. A bow in the hands of a ranger is a single target weapon. In the hands of a warrior, it's an AOE weapon. The feel of combat can totally change based on class and weapon, like using a mace for stuns or a greatsword for melee AOE. It's not like other games where any weapon is as good as any other because they're just doing damage.
Weapons and skills change when going underwater. You can't swing a sword so you use a harpoon gun or a trident and get different skills. Fire magic boils the water instead of just acting the same.
Players have multiple weapon sets, kits or attunements so they can switch up their role in combat. You're not locked into being the tank, dps or healer. You can adopt a different role on the fly to adjust to what you need to be doing.
Different classes can work together with cross profession combos. Arrows shot through a fire wall doing extra damage is the most commonly cited example, but there's supposed to be like 100 of them.
I'm not sure if I missed anything. I'm sure someone will help me out if I did. (EDIT, forgot your skillbar changing when you pick up an environmental weapon, dammit)
Anyway, is there any point in the middle of that that GW2 meets the stated goal of kicking combat up a notch?
correct me if im wrong.. but isnt this type of combat almost identical to the type you get in swg right now? moving combat, ranged weapons, melee etc.. about the only difference im seeing is that in swg you get the choice of auto target or aimed target.. and the nge was definitely not 'kicking combat up a notch' in swg either.. seems to me, that gw2 is gw1's nge.. better hope its more popular than the nge was for swg..
You know whats the difference? You can still play GW1, no one is stopping you, but you can't play SWG pre-NGE. You can't NGE something that isn't out.
Its funny to see people in threads talk like the game is released already. Sure, devs has release info about combat, but hating/loving a game that isn't out and speculating based on so little. This isn't a discussion, nor an argument, it is simply your words against mine.
I am going to play GW2, and I hope people who don't like just don't even bother trying the game, I don't want to see people on chat flaming the game, because you know, YOU DON'T NEED A SUBSCRIPTION FOR IT, the barrier is so low the flamers can just shell out $40-50 and flame the game, turns out to be good, and still flame the game.
Doesn't matter if it has only half the P2P mmo content, all I know is that I'm getting my $40 worth. And thats all I really care about.
if all you care about is how mucht the game costs, then good for you.. i don't think everyone is as easily pleased though. my point was rather than being something new.. this combat system is pretty much already in use in another game, and has been for a few years.. swg's combat is remarkably similar.. at least going by the video's i've seen now.. and that in itself makes it an 'odd' choice.. as the combat system in swg/nge, wasnt all that popular..
@Meowhead If that's the case it would be acceptebal like I said erlyer already however so far all all I saw/read were the same evasion moves for all classes with the same stamina system if I am wrong I would love it but could u plz link the (official) information to back up your statement so that I could read it myself since I would really like to know how the evasion would differ and what u have to do to skill it. Till I read the (official) statement I'll only have the info I saw to go on and that just controdicts your statement and I would hate to get excited about nothing
If that's the case it would be acceptebal like I said erlyer already however so far all all I saw/read were the same evasion moves for all classes with the same stamina system if I am wrong I would love it but could u plz link the (official) information to back up your statement so that I could read it myself since I would really like to know how the evasion would differ and what u have to do to skill it.
Till I read the (official) statement I'll only have the info I saw to go on and that just controdicts your statement and I would hate to get excited about nothing
You just have to watch a couple gameplay videos to understand that dodging in GW2 is not RnG based. There is no die roll or stat to determine how well I dodge and no profession has an advantage when it comes to actively dodging. Dodging pulls a set percentage amount, from the Energy resource, all professions have. Currently there is no stat to boost the energy and even if there was it wouldn't matter, since dodging always uses the same percentage amount. There is an interview, somewhere on the web, where an Arenanet dev dicussed all this, but I can't find it.
@Master10k I know that its what I said in my earlyer posts and which is why I do not like it I'm sry if I failed to make myself clear enough and Co used any missunderstandings
Why are people saying AoC has the better combat when clearly, Darkfall Online does? You don't have ANY Auto-Targetting whatsoever, you can move while casting is done in FPS, you can block and dodge, shoot wherever, whenever the hell you want to while moving...
So why is Guild Wars 2 all of a sudden revolutionary when Darkfall has Third Person Shooter/FPS combat?
I'm sorry but GW2 combat system is just a step forward, and a huge step, as much as i like (somehow ) DF as much as this is obvious. DF slaped a fps shooter system in a sword and board game and didn't tweaked the system much, their sprinting feature is beyound stupid, and dodging don't even work, plain and simple. GW2 have a lot of details that make it a lot better, first their aoe are properly made with circles, they have objects for healing you can drop on the floor for anyone to take them because aiming moving freinds on the batle to heal them is just blha, their dodging actually work, the UI seam a lot better, and the weapon/skill are dependant, which will ease by a lot the heavy need of macro in DF to even be able to fight properly. UI of DF is just encumbred with a zillion of skills making the control unbearable even for a vet, not even talking about a noob. DF simply is a pain all around and wasn't though very well, GW2 have a smooth combat system, its pretty obvious they have put a lot more effort in the conception of their system. The only real plus in DF is the engine, not the combat system. If you want to talk about a good fps sword and board combat system don't talk about DF, maybe talk about Mount&blade for example.
I was just using DF as an example..
Fallen Earth, Darkfall and Mortal Online use similar combat systems cause they games are FPS, they require a keystroke like a single player RPG such as Elder Scrolls Oblivion or Fallen Earth, everything you do requires a keystroke since combat is done with your mouse, you don't get your mouse cursor to use.. I got use to it no problem, I guess people prefer the Action Combat Systems.. I like Global Agendas third person shooter combat without FPS being involved, they pulled it off quite nicely, if Darkfall got rid of their FPS and made it simply a Third Person Shooter game or strictly an FPS, it would be a MUCH better game, this is the reason Mortal Online went strictly FPS rather than trying to do both like what Darkfall did.. Oh, Mount & Blade is really just a combat simulator, it is good, but it is not really an RPG, it is more of a combat simulator, one that works quite well and should be used in online gaming..
Really? Up a notch? Maybe I have been watching different videos, but it doesn't seem to be all that much of a notch. Think about it, people have been using movement as a means to improve their survival in mmorpgs since mmorpgs came out. So you don't have to stop for 0.5 - 2.0 seconds it takes to cast a spell, fire an arrow, or whatever. Big deal.
As if for some reason having unrestricted movement makes the game more tactical. I contend that when you had to actually time spells and actions based on their movement restrictions, the game was more tactical. But yay, now I can move and cast spells in GW2 but still have to contend with global cooldown timers. Oh, and the overwhelming domination of ranged classes in pvp that this type of ability promotes in a game that has auto-targetting.
Lastly, someone mentioned earlier that FPS style games have their own issues with combat that become monotonous after continued use. No different than EQ's original point, click, auto-attack, yawn technique. Bottom line: as much as I like GW2 concept, it is overhyped and will get hurt by that overhype...
You're talking about moving as one aspect of the GW2 combat that doesn't impress you, then bashing the whole system, as if it's the only aspect.
First off, mobs in GW2 will attack differently than in a holy trinity MMO. They are going to try to kill the ones you'd expect mobs to try to kill, the high damage, low armored, more actually threatening people. Taunting doesn't exist in GW2 and the people in the tanking, (or "controlling" role in GW2 terms) won't just have a lock on aggro due to additional threat. More likely, they'll be trying to knock a mob down from behind while it goes for the caster.
In that kind of system, casting while moving is a necessity, not just a convenience.
It goes hand in hand with being able to dodge attacks and projectiles. Warriors can go into a toggled shield stance that blocks projectiles from hitting players behind them. A tank in PVP goes from either being useless or relying on silly mechanics to being a viable shield wall with a mace to stun the guy trying to go around him.
Anyone can rez anybody else at any time in GW2's system. No longer will it just be that someone screwed up, time to call a wipe. It will allow players to battle back and recover from mistakes. Also, it lets mobs do things that would be pretty unfair in a traditional MMO, like hit really hard. We've already seen video of a dynamic event boss 1-shotting a thief who got careless. That isn't even in the dungeons which will be the hard content.
Different classes use weapons differently. A bow in the hands of a ranger is a single target weapon. In the hands of a warrior, it's an AOE weapon. The feel of combat can totally change based on class and weapon, like using a mace for stuns or a greatsword for melee AOE. It's not like other games where any weapon is as good as any other because they're just doing damage.
Weapons and skills change when going underwater. You can't swing a sword so you use a harpoon gun or a trident and get different skills. Fire magic boils the water instead of just acting the same.
Players have multiple weapon sets, kits or attunements so they can switch up their role in combat. You're not locked into being the tank, dps or healer. You can adopt a different role on the fly to adjust to what you need to be doing.
Different classes can work together with cross profession combos. Arrows shot through a fire wall doing extra damage is the most commonly cited example, but there's supposed to be like 100 of them.
I'm not sure if I missed anything. I'm sure someone will help me out if I did. (EDIT, forgot your skillbar changing when you pick up an environmental weapon, dammit)
Anyway, is there any point in the middle of that that GW2 meets the stated goal of kicking combat up a notch?
correct me if im wrong.. but isnt this type of combat almost identical to the type you get in swg right now? moving combat, ranged weapons, melee etc.. about the only difference im seeing is that in swg you get the choice of auto target or aimed target.. and the nge was definitely not 'kicking combat up a notch' in swg either.. seems to me, that gw2 is gw1's nge.. better hope its more popular than the nge was for swg..
You know whats the difference? You can still play GW1, no one is stopping you, but you can't play SWG pre-NGE. You can't NGE something that isn't out.
Its funny to see people in threads talk like the game is released already. Sure, devs has release info about combat, but hating/loving a game that isn't out and speculating based on so little. This isn't a discussion, nor an argument, it is simply your words against mine.
I am going to play GW2, and I hope people who don't like just don't even bother trying the game, I don't want to see people on chat flaming the game, because you know, YOU DON'T NEED A SUBSCRIPTION FOR IT, the barrier is so low the flamers can just shell out $40-50 and flame the game, turns out to be good, and still flame the game.
Doesn't matter if it has only half the P2P mmo content, all I know is that I'm getting my $40 worth. And thats all I really care about.
if all you care about is how mucht the game costs, then good for you.. i don't think everyone is as easily pleased though. my point was rather than being something new.. this combat system is pretty much already in use in another game, and has been for a few years.. swg's combat is remarkably similar.. at least going by the video's i've seen now.. and that in itself makes it an 'odd' choice.. as the combat system in swg/nge, wasnt all that popular..
{mod edit} if people like you can"t understand the futur of combat goes in freedom of movement, better simulation of dodging and parrying mechanisms, player aiming and those kind of stuff, i really don't know what there is to talk about. Those new combat system try to integrate some of the best aspect of fps combat into mmos, because both system offer unique view on combat simulation. One is about movement, other is about character skills. Even the next gen wow clone that enphasis in charcter skill as the main aspect of their combat still try to integrate better movement, so? Now if you prefer a dye roll deal with your dodging, aiming and movement, fair enough, but don't be surprise if even game developer tend to disagree with you, even the most Tab targeting fan boys devs. WHat doesn't make sense from a development point of view just doesn't, you can hate it all you want, you won't stop progression. Better movement will always be an aim for anyone developing a combat system, you like it or not.
Why are people saying AoC has the better combat when clearly, Darkfall Online does? You don't have ANY Auto-Targetting whatsoever, you can move while casting is done in FPS, you can block and dodge, shoot wherever, whenever the hell you want to while moving...
So why is Guild Wars 2 all of a sudden revolutionary when Darkfall has Third Person Shooter/FPS combat?
I'm sorry but GW2 combat system is just a step forward, and a huge step, as much as i like (somehow ) DF as much as this is obvious. DF slaped a fps shooter system in a sword and board game and didn't tweaked the system much, their sprinting feature is beyound stupid, and dodging don't even work, plain and simple. GW2 have a lot of details that make it a lot better, first their aoe are properly made with circles, they have objects for healing you can drop on the floor for anyone to take them because aiming moving freinds on the batle to heal them is just blha, their dodging actually work, the UI seam a lot better, and the weapon/skill are dependant, which will ease by a lot the heavy need of macro in DF to even be able to fight properly. UI of DF is just encumbred with a zillion of skills making the control unbearable even for a vet, not even talking about a noob. DF simply is a pain all around and wasn't though very well, GW2 have a smooth combat system, its pretty obvious they have put a lot more effort in the conception of their system. The only real plus in DF is the engine, not the combat system. If you want to talk about a good fps sword and board combat system don't talk about DF, maybe talk about Mount&blade for example.
I was just using DF as an example..
Fallen Earth, Darkfall and Mortal Online use similar combat systems cause they games are FPS, they require a keystroke like a single player RPG such as Elder Scrolls Oblivion or Fallen Earth, everything you do requires a keystroke since combat is done with your mouse, you don't get your mouse cursor to use.. I got use to it no problem, I guess people prefer the Action Combat Systems.. I like Global Agendas third person shooter combat without FPS being involved, they pulled it off quite nicely, if Darkfall got rid of their FPS and made it simply a Third Person Shooter game or strictly an FPS, it would be a MUCH better game, this is the reason Mortal Online went strictly FPS rather than trying to do both like what Darkfall did.. Oh, Mount & Blade is really just a combat simulator, it is good, but it is not really an RPG, it is more of a combat simulator, one that works quite well and should be used in online gaming..
Those game try more or less to integrate fps into mmo, some have more success than other. You just can't compare them that much, some have some strengh or weakness. DF for example try to have big siege so their system is pretty basic to make big siege possible. But imo the important is the effort dev put into integrating fps strengh with mmo combat strengh and try to blend those successfully. I personally think GW2 is ahead of other from this point of viex, im maybe wrong but i don't think so. For me untill now M&B is the best system when it come to integrate sword comabt to fps movement, but i'm confident GW2 is just better, first because it also have casting, and because of many small details too.
I know that its what I said in my earlyer posts and which is why I do not like it
I'm sry if I failed to make myself clear enough and Co used any missunderstandings
The difference between a warrior and a Thief;
A warrior does not have skills that specifically allow him to dodge without using energy.
A thief's set of skills allow the thief to move in an out of battle without taking any damage while a Warrior will always have to dodge by double-tapping any direction which consumes energy.
The Warriors skills are built in a way that will allow him to stay in your face while the Thief is going to tease you by controlling distance.
You know whats the difference? You can still play GW1, no one is stopping you, but you can't play SWG pre-NGE. You can't NGE something that isn't out.
Its funny to see people in threads talk like the game is released already. Sure, devs has release info about combat, but hating/loving a game that isn't out and speculating based on so little. This isn't a discussion, nor an argument, it is simply your words against mine.
I am going to play GW2, and I hope people who don't like just don't even bother trying the game, I don't want to see people on chat flaming the game, because you know, YOU DON'T NEED A SUBSCRIPTION FOR IT, the barrier is so low the flamers can just shell out $40-50 and flame the game, turns out to be good, and still flame the game.
Doesn't matter if it has only half the P2P mmo content, all I know is that I'm getting my $40 worth. And thats all I really care about.
if all you care about is how mucht the game costs, then good for you.. i don't think everyone is as easily pleased though. my point was rather than being something new.. this combat system is pretty much already in use in another game, and has been for a few years.. swg's combat is remarkably similar.. at least going by the video's i've seen now.. and that in itself makes it an 'odd' choice.. as the combat system in swg/nge, wasnt all that popular..
*Snip quite a bit of stuff, was getting too long
I think you got the wrong idea of what I meant by getting my worth of $40, to me, thats probably the hardest to please. Not many MMOG really worth that box cost, subscription cost, maybe, but definitely not the box cost.
As for your point about combat being similar to SWG, I think you are misunderstanding what it meant by innovative combat system, it isn't about about you control or use skills, but in terms of class design and skill design.
In general MMOG, class role defines half the combat, either you tank, DPS or heal, but in GW2, instead of the normal class roles, every class has the limited ability to heal and dps, these roles are more generalised to broaden grouping efficiency, and also inserting new group roles, from my understanding of the system, is that these are categorized into Crowd Control, Ally Support and Group protection, and they are more like the sub categories of what general MMO define as 'tanking'. A group needs the ability to control the enemy, provide advantages to the friendly players, and protecting friends from harm.
As for the other half of the combat, it is mostly the skill design. General skill design are very specific abilities, like fireball, which does huge amount of damage; or freeze, to root the enemies in place; then firestorm, to aoe a bunch of mobs. They don't provide a interaction between them. Contrast to the general skill design, GW2 design their skills to be much more open ended, a firewall can act as a protection to allies, but can also turn into additional attack power when projectiles shoot past it; or guardian's buff, where passive gives bouns to the player, or to be used as a skill for additional damage or protection for a short period of time. The open endedness of the skills in GW2 is what gives the tactical approach in combat, fires spell acts like a FIRE spell, not just some damage skill, placement of aoe/aura becomes a tactical choice, not just the simple aggro a few mobs to the tank and aoe the shit out of them. From my understanding, no class, even with over sufficient healing, can sustain damage from 3-4 mobs for a long period of time, not to mention "TANKING" a boss, this is where the evasion nature of gameplay comes in, you need to evade physically.
Seeing I never played SWg in depth (unless you want to call me on that trial) I can't comment on how SWG combat works, or if GW2 is similar to it, I'm just offering my take on GW2's combat system, and let you do the judgement.
Unless you actually meant like the camera mechanics like free aiming or tab targetting control, I define them as combat mechanics, not combat design or system. They are there to aid you, not to differentiate. Personally, I think free aiming much easier to aim and control, but thats another topic.
How much WoW could a WoWhater hate, if a WoWhater could hate WoW? As much WoW as a WoWhater would, if a WoWhater could hate WoW.
BORING! i wont even look at anythign this company makes anymore....there security is stupily too secure and Guid Wars was too dated and boring for me...i tryed going back to it a few months ago and well logged in for 1 hr had to log off tryed to get back on and the stupid security woudnt let me! Thus why i quit and give this company a 2/10. I wasnt willing to try to get my account back up and going again because i already spent 5hrs getting it running and dealing with there epic fail customer service, WORST GAME EVER!
So you don't like NCsoft or Anet because you forgot your password and/or because you don't know what your characters name is? Or are you just one of those poor unfortunate people who can't manage to keep their accounts from getting hacked?
No, he doesnt like the company because he can't figure out his own firewall and router.
And what any of his rant actually has to do with the article.... I don't know.
Not to give credit to the original post due to it's obvious ingorance, but NCsoft is terrible where customer service is concerned whether its GW or Aion or Lineage w/e when it comes to customer service they suck. The "new" security measures in guild wars are a hassle and pain in the @$$, especially since they've added similar BS to the NCsoft master account which is now what you have to use to get "support" for any game they are attached to. Also if your problem doesn't happen to fall into a monday-friday 8-5est time frame forget about it till the next business day. Then theres the whole censorship Team Korea World Police deal which I'm just gonna leave at that. I actually had a dream where anet got rid of NCsoft unfortunately I woke up and it was just a dream. I still have great hope for GW2 though looks awesome so far(I just don't expect any form of customer support).
You could be right, but this thread is about the combat of the game, if the dude wants to complain about ANet, /shock this is a forum and /shock he can make his own thread.
When someone throws their spoiled beans comments into threads like this one, it just comes off as 'haters' trying to sucker punch the success of a game.
The amount of hate and trolling in this thread is mindblowing.. are you guys really that threatened by this game? ALL articles and writers that played GW2 are saying the same:
"The combat feels fresh, fun and dynamic."
It's a FACT so get over it. And until I see a legit article that says otherwise, you can hate all you want. Bring on GW2!!
The amount of hate and trolling in this thread is mindblowing.. are you guys really that threatened by this game? ALL articles and writers that played GW2 are saying the same:
"The combat feels fresh, fun and dynamic."
It's a FACT so get over it. And until I see a legit article that says otherwise, you can hate all you want. Bring on GW2!!
Every mmo has overly glowing preview reports ad nauseum. But we've seen the footage, it's not that special.
The amount of hate and trolling in this thread is mindblowing.. are you guys really that threatened by this game? ALL articles and writers that played GW2 are saying the same:
"The combat feels fresh, fun and dynamic."
It's a FACT so get over it. And until I see a legit article that says otherwise, you can hate all you want. Bring on GW2!!
Every mmo has overly glowing preview reports ad nauseum. But we've seen the footage, it's not that special.
The amount of hate and trolling in this thread is mindblowing.. are you guys really that threatened by this game? ALL articles and writers that played GW2 are saying the same:
"The combat feels fresh, fun and dynamic."
It's a FACT so get over it. And until I see a legit article that says otherwise, you can hate all you want. Bring on GW2!!
Every mmo has overly glowing preview reports ad nauseum. But we've seen the footage, it's not that special.
Well, if that is the case, find somebody who has played the game who things the combat isn't different and spacial.
saying that combat feels fresh, fun, and dynamic is a fact is a bit much, but given the percentage of people who have had the opportunity to play the game that have said something along this line, its near enough to the truth as far as you can be concerned.
sure, combat might not look special in some videos, especially because what you are looking at is an animation for verious skills and a skill bar, which isn't exactly special. What is shown in those videos that IS special is the way skills change when you swap weapons in the middle of combat or pick up an environmental weapon, which could be anything from a rock or stick to a mortar cannon or a golem battle suit or a conjured weapon or a war banner or a bunch of different other things that do different things (and thieves are cool because they can steal environmental weapons from their enemies and use them for great effect). These skills, the first 5 skills, are, in my opinion, the START of why combat in GW2 deserves to be called interesting, fresh, fun, dynamic, etc.
There is the increased mobility that many others have commented on, with dodging by double tapping a directional key. There is mobility while using skills. There are a LARGE number of skills that move you in one direction or another. the skills the move you could be compared to other games where a melee character can rush at an enemy target, but these skills can do so much more than just that. For example, thieves have a healing skill that causes to you roll backwards to escape the battle. Thieves also have a shortbow skill that lets you teleport to where you aimed* your shot (more on this later), a sword skill that lets you jump forward to attack and then jumps you back out again, and various other teleports and rolling skills on top of normal dodge rolling. Elementalists have skills that let them leap forward or back (2 different skills) while trailing walls of fire behind them, rangers have a sowrd skill that lets them do a half circle roll around their enemy and them strick at the target's back, warriors have various rush skills to get in close to a target and a greatsword skill that lets them move in a direction while spinning with their sword. engineers have attacks that knock themselves into the air in various directions, just as all the classes have ways of pulling an enemy towards you, knocking them away from you, or otherwise changing the enemies ability to move. Mobility is HIGHLY important to strategy in GW2, especially as far as PvP is concerned.
*Aiming ---
The way skills are aimed, and this is easily missed in the videos, but you can still see it, isn't limited to the auto aim at selected target (without homing projectiles, of which there are a few in the game). First though, skills can be activated even without a proper target. You can fling a ball of fire into the open air just as you can swing a sword at nothing. Second, there are no target ally skills, and all support oriented skills are built around this fact. Third, many, many skills target an area on the ground, which is a manual process that I find balances out the ease of using the more familiar selct target and activate skills. It keeps things interesting if you are not able to just tab target with every skill, although tab targeting still remains. so, just how many groud targeted skills are there? well, for example, the shortbow for thieves has 4 ground targeted skills, many of the elementalist staff skills are ground trageted as well, same with warrior long bows, the necromancer marks and wells, ranger's spread shots, and many other skills for all the classes. People who really can't get past the fact that GW2 doesn't have FPS targeting are, in my opinion limited in their sight of things.
Last but certainly not least is the aspect of skill interaction when used together and its effect on teamwork without a trinity. Previously mentioned in this thread, but a fairly simple example of the cross class combos, is the fire wall + arrow = flaming arrow. This isn't the full extent of the matter of skill interactions though, as many classes have ways of doing interesting things, even while soloing. For example, an engineer can set up a wall of fire,pull an enemy though the fire, blast it away and through the fire again, and make an enemy fairly useless while it is being pummeled by turrets and grenades and mines. gaurdians can add damage our provide protection to others by laying down skills that cause projectiles hitting an enmy to also heal allies meleeing the target. An elementalist can set up fields of electricity that cause bullets to stun enemies after passing through the field. a warrior or ranger can use various skills the fling fireballs off of their axes when swinging them through walls of fire, necromancers can allow different people to spread poison and desiease through a field of enemies, elementalists can knock enemies back with tridents and cause them to go though a wall of fire or even off a cliff or various other interesting things. These are all things that either require an amount of team work, or planning a series of attacks so as to increase your effectiveness, and they also require posiitioning beyond the normal levels that other games require.
One aspect of combat that really can't be realized by just watching the videos is that positioning is so important to GW2 that I would go so far as to say that it is the non-numerical aspect of combat that really makes it possible to say that GW2 requires more than just a knowledge of what the proper skill rotation is, and because it requires more than other games, it is more interesting than those games. Additionally, all of this positioning and increase in teamwork is possible without speaking with members or your group because of how the animations are being done in this game (all the people who say the game is too flashy should realize what this means).
One wierd thing that some people may not like is the removal of bodyblocking, though they have added the ability to physically intercept projectile attacks by getting in the way of the attack (warriors and guardians will have lots of fun doing this I imagine). I don't really care that they got rid of bodyblocking, but it may be a negative for some, so allow me to say that, when I played the game, I did not find it to be a negative.
tl;dr -- actually playing the game and just seeing video of it are 2 very different things entirely. Even those who follow the game veery closely may not understand everything about what is in the videos, mostly because of how different the combat is. The gameplay is VERY smooth and is VERY fun to play, even if you don't really know what you are doing (beginners to this kind of gaming will find it very easy to get into).
I used to TL;DR, but then I took a bullet point to the footnote.
I never said PC games cannot build differentiations between classes most RPGs did it all this years and one big point always was evading and blocking some classes were good in it and some sucked this is being taken away now that's all I say
I'm sure I'll still enjoy GW2 for what it will be and only hope that someday someone takes GW fighting system and makes it right (active evading blocking depending and character/class skills)
Off topic but if you want a nail in the pen and paper rpg coffin try rolemaster. If you don't know it was a standalone system in itself but it could be taken across to say D&D and used in place of the games combat system. I fight could litterally take hours because of all the rolling and modifications based on weapon vs armor types and such. Very nitpicky to the point of absurdity.
On topic following example. I get what you are meaning and if GW2 does have variences in classes dodge abilities maybe that could appease that way of thinking. I think that is just one small aspect you give up when going from the usual mmo or rpg to an action one that adds active dodging. I think it's better than invisible dice rolls that weigh someones accuracy or expertise or w/e stat used against my evasion or dodge or parry or w/e stat used to determine if and how much damage I just took. I think if I have the ability to determine whether or not I take damage, be it half or full or w/e, it has a lot more freedom than relying on a stat and hoping the other person misses. I was a PnP RPG'r for years myself, but i feel this system has more controll over the beating I may or may not receive and how much of a whoopin I take.
Originally posted by sidhaethe Originally posted by waynejr2Originally posted by CookieTimeNice article. But you forgot to mention another important aspect - cross profession combos. These add a whole new dimension to combat.Also lol at people who say that GW2's combat brings nothing new. Yeah, I guess other MMO's have much more innovative combat systems.. right?
Didn't EQ2 have group combat tactics?Yes, and so does LOTRO. However, that's not what is meant by "cross-profession combos" in GW2. There is a difference between each class executing a particular attack or type of attack to bring about a huge finisher, and the ability for one player to lay down an area of effect in the world, such as fire, poison, healing, etc., and anyone coming along can shoot or swing a blade through that effect to spread it to enemies.This is not to argue that the latter is better, merely that it is distinctly different, and, furthermore, does not require the participants to be grouped to take advantage of the possibilities. Ok, I wasn't sure if it was going to be similar or not. It seems like it is different.
At least they are trying to play around with some new mechanics. Although I don't think the dynamic content sustain interest in the long run.
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
I know that its what I said in my earlyer posts and which is why I do not like it
I'm sry if I failed to make myself clear enough and Co used any missunderstandings
The difference between a warrior and a Thief;
A warrior does not have skills that specifically allow him to dodge without using energy.
A thief's set of skills allow the thief to move in an out of battle without taking any damage while a Warrior will always have to dodge by double-tapping any direction which consumes energy.
The Warriors skills are built in a way that will allow him to stay in your face while the Thief is going to tease you by controlling distance.
Notice that the Thief tends to bounce back and forth a lot and the Warrior just stands there and takes it all.
I appreciate the links thx for that.
However i am not impressed at all i have to say the thief had 1 jump action which seemed to not use as much energy than the evading did but that's really only useful if u want to play your close combat rouge like a marksman and stay on distance all the time as soon as he went into close combat it was exactly like the Warrior Video.
I would even say that the Videos kind of proved my points since the Evading of both the Warrior and the thief seemed to be identical in close combat which is the only thing i didn't like to begin with.
That each class will have different means to approach a fight should be clear its like that in all MMOs and GW2 is no exception in that but that in no way has anything to do with the different in evading
ps. After watching the Videos i am kind of afraid if they will get the Balancing right the Thief did seem to have a HUGE advantage with range attacks compared to the warrior only relaying on close combat
ps. After watching the Videos i am kind of afraid if they will get the Balancing right the Thief did seem to have a HUGE advantage with range attacks compared to the warrior only relaying on close combat
Why is that? A Warrior is perfectly capable of using a bow too.
ps. After watching the Videos i am kind of afraid if they will get the Balancing right the Thief did seem to have a HUGE advantage with range attacks compared to the warrior only relaying on close combat
Why is that? A Warrior is perfectly capable of using a bow too.
Thats one of the things people are going to need to learn to adapt to. Get over your notions of what X class should do vs Y class that youre used to in other MMOs, and worry about learning the classes in THIS game. There will be a lot of different ways to spec out your character to be better at various tasks through the Traits system. Being a Warrior does not mean you will only be good at melee combat and with X weapon. Its all about what you want to get out of your character and where you spend the points. Your skills will change based on your weapon, which means that the skills you have available are specifically suited to being good with that weapon. You wont have the typical "i can only use this skill with this weapon" that you see in a lot of games, because they both change. What will matter is wether or not you spend your Trait points on becoming more masterful with a certain type of weapon or performing a certain action. As theyve duiscussed before, theyre attempting to eliminate the holy trinity, and are trying to make all classes capable of doing most jobs just as well as other but through different methods. Because of that, picking your class wont always dictate your role or what youre good at like in most other games (oh, youre a warrior? youre automatically the tank. Oh youre a thief? youre automatically dps), it will be a combination of both class and traits and weapon choice allowing you flexibility.
ps. After watching the Videos i am kind of afraid if they will get the Balancing right the Thief did seem to have a HUGE advantage with range attacks compared to the warrior only relaying on close combat
Why is that? A Warrior is perfectly capable of using a bow too.
Thats one of the things people are going to need to learn to adapt to. Get over your notions of what X class should do vs Y class that youre used to in other MMOs, and worry about learning the classes in THIS game. There will be a lot of different ways to spec out your character to be better at various tasks through the Traits system. Being a Warrior does not mean you will only be good at melee combat and with X weapon. Its all about what you want to get out of your character and where you spend the points. Your skills will change based on your weapon, which means that the skills you have available are specifically suited to being good with that weapon. You wont have the typical "i can only use this skill with this weapon" that you see in a lot of games, because they both change. What will matter is wether or not you spend your Trait points on becoming more masterful with a certain type of weapon or performing a certain action. As theyve duiscussed before, theyre attempting to eliminate the holy trinity, and are trying to make all classes capable of doing most jobs just as well as other but through different methods. Because of that, picking your class wont always dictate your role or what youre good at like in most other games (oh, youre a warrior? youre automatically the tank. Oh youre a thief? youre automatically dps), it will be a combination of both class and traits and weapon choice allowing you flexibility.
Concerning traits, traits that are attatched to what weapon you are wielding will switch to the appropriate weapon traits (so long as you have set traits for that weapon set in advance.
Also, as you have said, everyone is going to be good at dealing damage as well as doing things to support allies or control the enemy. something that may not be clear to many people is that there can be benefit to rapid switching of weapons or attunements just to use a skill to support or control or to change your range with your target and then switch back after one or 2 actions and continue the fight as your were before. Weapon swapping can be used in a number of different ways.
you can have a ranged and a melee weapon on 2 different weapon sets to allow for changing in range, and I believe that this will be popular for warriors, but not really neccessary, as ranged weapons can have melee ranged skills (the warrior bow skill "kick"), or vice versa (the warrior greatsword skill "impaling throw"). It is likely some people will find it fun to just take a bow and a rifle when using a warrior and go straight range, The point being that each weapon you choose, ranged or other wise is selected to be used in a different situation or in different ranges from your target, allowing you to switch weapons when the range of your target changes.
you can use one weapons set to focus on damage and switch when you need a condition dealt or a particular support skill to help out you or your allies. I, personally, believe this is most likely to be what I will do most of the time. For example, I may play an elementalist and stay with fire most of the time, but switch to water to cast healing rain (which provides support healing, not a major heal or anything capable of sustaining somebody under fire) every once in a while and throw out a few freezes to help out myself or others when pressure is straining energy resources.
you can switch very frequently to either confuse foes (PvP) or to shake aggro (PvE, aggro works of a number of things, but a big factor is proximity). This is a tactic that also allows for elementalists to combo certain effects from different attunements to and become a very combo focused player (also applies to engineers with their kits). If your opponets in PvP don't pay attention, they may not be able to effectively play against your rapid changing of tactics. I can see this being very effective for thieves because of how their weapons have lots of movement skills, but it can also work for rangers as they switch from sword after leaping away from a target and pulling out a bow to cripple and kite the target, switching back to sword getting behind the foe and doing whatever seems effective after that. This is probably the most active, and most challenging way to use weapon swapping, and it is likely higher end players will be effective at it (for proof watch the thief in this video of a more experienced Anet player. http://www.justin.tv/alienwarearena/b/281618099 check in at about 7:30 if you want to see how he uses weapon swapping effectively)
I used to TL;DR, but then I took a bullet point to the footnote.
However i am not impressed at all i have to say the thief had 1 jump action which seemed to not use as much energy than the evading did but that's really only useful if u want to play your close combat rouge like a marksman and stay on distance all the time as soon as he went into close combat it was exactly like the Warrior Video.
I would even say that the Videos kind of proved my points since the Evading of both the Warrior and the thief seemed to be identical in close combat which is the only thing i didn't like to begin with.
That each class will have different means to approach a fight should be clear its like that in all MMOs and GW2 is no exception in that but that in no way has anything to do with the different in evading
ps. After watching the Videos i am kind of afraid if they will get the Balancing right the Thief did seem to have a HUGE advantage with range attacks compared to the warrior only relaying on close combat
My last post wasn't enough so heres another example. Notice the 23:30 mark of the video the Commentator also says that thiefs have built in evasion moves since they are lightly armored and lower health wise. We don't know all the details yet on the game but we do try to inform those that decide to nitpick a particular section of the big picture
Beeing concerned about an aspect of a game doesn't mean I am trying to nitpick a particular section of the game I guess I was wrong when I thought I could post my personal opinion here without upsetting a certain kind of ppls. I do aopriciate the info about the build in evasion moves tho and it actually gave me hope that the system will be Bette than I expected....even tho I think that if u offer active Eva u should stick with it and not cheap out with inactive Eva but its still better than what most other mmos offer and therefore a step in the right direction :-)
Regarding my concern about the balancing....well so what if the warrior can use a bow? Are u telling me balancing will not be a problem because all classes can use range attack? If so than I'll have to say it would be the dumbest way ever to balance classes just make them all range attackers?.. seriously?.. I actually do not believe they will screw up balancing too much but your explanations that a warrior can use a bow is just dumb.
Beeing concerned about an aspect of a game doesn't mean I am trying to nitpick a particular section of the game I guess I was wrong when I thought I could post my personal opinion here without upsetting a certain kind of ppls.
I do aopriciate the info about the build in evasion moves tho and it actually gave me hope that the system will be Bette than I expected....even tho I think that if u offer active Eva u should stick with it and not cheap out with inactive Eva but its still better than what most other mmos offer and therefore a step in the right direction :-)
Regarding my concern about the balancing....well so what if the warrior can use a bow? Are u telling me balancing will not be a problem because all classes can use range attack?
If so than I'll have to say it would be the dumbest way ever to balance classes just make them all range attackers?.. seriously?..
I actually do not believe they will screw up balancing too much but your explanations that a warrior can use a bow is just dumb.
Are you saying that there is inactive evasion in GW2? I know of no such thing.
giving all classes the ability to do ranged attacks is an effective way of basically saying that range isn't really going to be anything special all on its own. Players are going to want to be at different ranges in different circumstances, such as when a big spider boss has the ability to simply squash you at melee range. People who have access to range won't be completely gimped in these situations. Also, it means that there won't be any class that is your basic ranged attacker.
balancing between classes is going to have to take into consideration a great deal of things, but let me ask the question. In what way is a warrior limited in its ability to fight, say, an elementalist? is the elementalist going to kite the warrior so that he will never hit him making the warrior useless? not likely, even if a warrior is using all melee weapons, the skills warriors have can allow for the warrior to close in and make it difficult for the target to get away. Thieves, with all their mobility will be useful in PvP because they are so extremely mobile, but it is likely that thier offensive potential or support potential will be limited in some aspects when compared to other classes (not weaker, just different).
Anet takes balancing seriously, and they play the game all the time to ensure the game is working properly. The way the classes get balanced is to test and test and test to see if one class is more capable than the other classes, and I am of the oppinion that they will get it mostly right when the game releases. I am also of the opinion that player skill is going to be a huge factor, and that this is going to make the game fairly difficult on many people, many of which are sure to complain that class X always loses against class Y. I think that you may have to play differently against different classes in order to win, and that may require always taking the ability to range, or always taking a cripple (prevents dodge rolling and slows movement) skill with you or any number of things that you may not do in PvE, and I think a lot of how players cooperate together will help balance out individual class differences, but players adjusting to each other and counter adjusting to each other is a fair bit of what makes PvP fun. Anet has talked about how such things have worked out in testing, and I am excited and impressed that it is working out (by their account, of course).
I think that it is unfair to call all the classes ranged attackers.
I think it is natural to worry about balance...just don't worry yourselves too much until the game actually comes out.
I used to TL;DR, but then I took a bullet point to the footnote.
Comments
You know whats the difference? You can still play GW1, no one is stopping you, but you can't play SWG pre-NGE. You can't NGE something that isn't out.
Its funny to see people in threads talk like the game is released already. Sure, devs has release info about combat, but hating/loving a game that isn't out and speculating based on so little. This isn't a discussion, nor an argument, it is simply your words against mine.
I am going to play GW2, and I hope people who don't like just don't even bother trying the game, I don't want to see people on chat flaming the game, because you know, YOU DON'T NEED A SUBSCRIPTION FOR IT, the barrier is so low the flamers can just shell out $40-50 and flame the game, turns out to be good, and still flame the game.
Doesn't matter if it has only half the P2P mmo content, all I know is that I'm getting my $40 worth. And thats all I really care about.
How much WoW could a WoWhater hate, if a WoWhater could hate WoW?
As much WoW as a WoWhater would, if a WoWhater could hate WoW.
Now allow me to quote myself from the previous pages:
"It's really amazing how people try to break down certain components of Guild Wars 2's combat and say "X game did this, this is not innovative" when the main reason why people like me are excited for the game, is because we take the combat features as a whole. Both land-based and underwater based. I don't care if DCUO or AOC share certain features of GW2's supposed innovative combat, when they don't look fun to play. That's one of the main things a game is supposed to be... fun, and I will certainly have fun, finding creative ways to hit people in the face. Especially in GW2's World v World PvP."
Now all you have to do is replace DCUO with SWG and the point remains the same. People like you keep trying to say a certain game's combat mechanics (in this case, SWG) is identical to GW2 based on what... 2 or 3 similar aspects. it just doesn't work. Instead why don't you check out the gameplay of both games and ask yourself, "which of these games looks more fun and/or enjoyable to play?" In my case I'd answer, "the game that I'll be able to play next year." ^_^
if all you care about is how mucht the game costs, then good for you.. i don't think everyone is as easily pleased though. my point was rather than being something new.. this combat system is pretty much already in use in another game, and has been for a few years.. swg's combat is remarkably similar.. at least going by the video's i've seen now.. and that in itself makes it an 'odd' choice.. as the combat system in swg/nge, wasnt all that popular..
If that's the case it would be acceptebal like I said erlyer already however so far all all I saw/read were the same evasion moves for all classes with the same stamina system if I am wrong I would love it but could u plz link the (official) information to back up your statement so that I could read it myself since I would really like to know how the evasion would differ and what u have to do to skill it.
Till I read the (official) statement I'll only have the info I saw to go on and that just controdicts your statement and I would hate to get excited about nothing
You just have to watch a couple gameplay videos to understand that dodging in GW2 is not RnG based. There is no die roll or stat to determine how well I dodge and no profession has an advantage when it comes to actively dodging. Dodging pulls a set percentage amount, from the Energy resource, all professions have. Currently there is no stat to boost the energy and even if there was it wouldn't matter, since dodging always uses the same percentage amount. There is an interview, somewhere on the web, where an Arenanet dev dicussed all this, but I can't find it.
EDIT: Found it - Part 1 / Part 2
I know that its what I said in my earlyer posts and which is why I do not like it
I'm sry if I failed to make myself clear enough and Co used any missunderstandings
I was just using DF as an example..
Fallen Earth, Darkfall and Mortal Online use similar combat systems cause they games are FPS, they require a keystroke like a single player RPG such as Elder Scrolls Oblivion or Fallen Earth, everything you do requires a keystroke since combat is done with your mouse, you don't get your mouse cursor to use.. I got use to it no problem, I guess people prefer the Action Combat Systems.. I like Global Agendas third person shooter combat without FPS being involved, they pulled it off quite nicely, if Darkfall got rid of their FPS and made it simply a Third Person Shooter game or strictly an FPS, it would be a MUCH better game, this is the reason Mortal Online went strictly FPS rather than trying to do both like what Darkfall did.. Oh, Mount & Blade is really just a combat simulator, it is good, but it is not really an RPG, it is more of a combat simulator, one that works quite well and should be used in online gaming..
{mod edit} if people like you can"t understand the futur of combat goes in freedom of movement, better simulation of dodging and parrying mechanisms, player aiming and those kind of stuff, i really don't know what there is to talk about. Those new combat system try to integrate some of the best aspect of fps combat into mmos, because both system offer unique view on combat simulation. One is about movement, other is about character skills. Even the next gen wow clone that enphasis in charcter skill as the main aspect of their combat still try to integrate better movement, so? Now if you prefer a dye roll deal with your dodging, aiming and movement, fair enough, but don't be surprise if even game developer tend to disagree with you, even the most Tab targeting fan boys devs. WHat doesn't make sense from a development point of view just doesn't, you can hate it all you want, you won't stop progression. Better movement will always be an aim for anyone developing a combat system, you like it or not.
Those game try more or less to integrate fps into mmo, some have more success than other. You just can't compare them that much, some have some strengh or weakness. DF for example try to have big siege so their system is pretty basic to make big siege possible. But imo the important is the effort dev put into integrating fps strengh with mmo combat strengh and try to blend those successfully. I personally think GW2 is ahead of other from this point of viex, im maybe wrong but i don't think so. For me untill now M&B is the best system when it come to integrate sword comabt to fps movement, but i'm confident GW2 is just better, first because it also have casting, and because of many small details too.
The difference between a warrior and a Thief;
A warrior does not have skills that specifically allow him to dodge without using energy.
A thief's set of skills allow the thief to move in an out of battle without taking any damage while a Warrior will always have to dodge by double-tapping any direction which consumes energy.
The Warriors skills are built in a way that will allow him to stay in your face while the Thief is going to tease you by controlling distance.
I hope this helps.
EDIT: Also here's footage of a thief being played by someone who is competent; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q0J4J2F-f9A
And here's is footage of a warrior, kinda competent player http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zXgmZiSIFuY
Notice that the Thief tends to bounce back and forth a lot and the Warrior just stands there and takes it all.
This is not a game.
*Snip quite a bit of stuff, was getting too long
I think you got the wrong idea of what I meant by getting my worth of $40, to me, thats probably the hardest to please. Not many MMOG really worth that box cost, subscription cost, maybe, but definitely not the box cost.
As for your point about combat being similar to SWG, I think you are misunderstanding what it meant by innovative combat system, it isn't about about you control or use skills, but in terms of class design and skill design.
In general MMOG, class role defines half the combat, either you tank, DPS or heal, but in GW2, instead of the normal class roles, every class has the limited ability to heal and dps, these roles are more generalised to broaden grouping efficiency, and also inserting new group roles, from my understanding of the system, is that these are categorized into Crowd Control, Ally Support and Group protection, and they are more like the sub categories of what general MMO define as 'tanking'. A group needs the ability to control the enemy, provide advantages to the friendly players, and protecting friends from harm.
As for the other half of the combat, it is mostly the skill design. General skill design are very specific abilities, like fireball, which does huge amount of damage; or freeze, to root the enemies in place; then firestorm, to aoe a bunch of mobs. They don't provide a interaction between them. Contrast to the general skill design, GW2 design their skills to be much more open ended, a firewall can act as a protection to allies, but can also turn into additional attack power when projectiles shoot past it; or guardian's buff, where passive gives bouns to the player, or to be used as a skill for additional damage or protection for a short period of time. The open endedness of the skills in GW2 is what gives the tactical approach in combat, fires spell acts like a FIRE spell, not just some damage skill, placement of aoe/aura becomes a tactical choice, not just the simple aggro a few mobs to the tank and aoe the shit out of them. From my understanding, no class, even with over sufficient healing, can sustain damage from 3-4 mobs for a long period of time, not to mention "TANKING" a boss, this is where the evasion nature of gameplay comes in, you need to evade physically.
Seeing I never played SWg in depth (unless you want to call me on that trial) I can't comment on how SWG combat works, or if GW2 is similar to it, I'm just offering my take on GW2's combat system, and let you do the judgement.
Unless you actually meant like the camera mechanics like free aiming or tab targetting control, I define them as combat mechanics, not combat design or system. They are there to aid you, not to differentiate. Personally, I think free aiming much easier to aim and control, but thats another topic.
How much WoW could a WoWhater hate, if a WoWhater could hate WoW?
As much WoW as a WoWhater would, if a WoWhater could hate WoW.
You could be right, but this thread is about the combat of the game, if the dude wants to complain about ANet, /shock this is a forum and /shock he can make his own thread.
When someone throws their spoiled beans comments into threads like this one, it just comes off as 'haters' trying to sucker punch the success of a game.
The amount of hate and trolling in this thread is mindblowing.. are you guys really that threatened by this game? ALL articles and writers that played GW2 are saying the same:
"The combat feels fresh, fun and dynamic."
It's a FACT so get over it. And until I see a legit article that says otherwise, you can hate all you want. Bring on GW2!!
Eat me!
Every mmo has overly glowing preview reports ad nauseum. But we've seen the footage, it's not that special.
On the contrary. It's amazing.
Eat me!
Well, if that is the case, find somebody who has played the game who things the combat isn't different and spacial.
saying that combat feels fresh, fun, and dynamic is a fact is a bit much, but given the percentage of people who have had the opportunity to play the game that have said something along this line, its near enough to the truth as far as you can be concerned.
sure, combat might not look special in some videos, especially because what you are looking at is an animation for verious skills and a skill bar, which isn't exactly special. What is shown in those videos that IS special is the way skills change when you swap weapons in the middle of combat or pick up an environmental weapon, which could be anything from a rock or stick to a mortar cannon or a golem battle suit or a conjured weapon or a war banner or a bunch of different other things that do different things (and thieves are cool because they can steal environmental weapons from their enemies and use them for great effect). These skills, the first 5 skills, are, in my opinion, the START of why combat in GW2 deserves to be called interesting, fresh, fun, dynamic, etc.
There is the increased mobility that many others have commented on, with dodging by double tapping a directional key. There is mobility while using skills. There are a LARGE number of skills that move you in one direction or another. the skills the move you could be compared to other games where a melee character can rush at an enemy target, but these skills can do so much more than just that. For example, thieves have a healing skill that causes to you roll backwards to escape the battle. Thieves also have a shortbow skill that lets you teleport to where you aimed* your shot (more on this later), a sword skill that lets you jump forward to attack and then jumps you back out again, and various other teleports and rolling skills on top of normal dodge rolling. Elementalists have skills that let them leap forward or back (2 different skills) while trailing walls of fire behind them, rangers have a sowrd skill that lets them do a half circle roll around their enemy and them strick at the target's back, warriors have various rush skills to get in close to a target and a greatsword skill that lets them move in a direction while spinning with their sword. engineers have attacks that knock themselves into the air in various directions, just as all the classes have ways of pulling an enemy towards you, knocking them away from you, or otherwise changing the enemies ability to move. Mobility is HIGHLY important to strategy in GW2, especially as far as PvP is concerned.
*Aiming ---
The way skills are aimed, and this is easily missed in the videos, but you can still see it, isn't limited to the auto aim at selected target (without homing projectiles, of which there are a few in the game). First though, skills can be activated even without a proper target. You can fling a ball of fire into the open air just as you can swing a sword at nothing. Second, there are no target ally skills, and all support oriented skills are built around this fact. Third, many, many skills target an area on the ground, which is a manual process that I find balances out the ease of using the more familiar selct target and activate skills. It keeps things interesting if you are not able to just tab target with every skill, although tab targeting still remains. so, just how many groud targeted skills are there? well, for example, the shortbow for thieves has 4 ground targeted skills, many of the elementalist staff skills are ground trageted as well, same with warrior long bows, the necromancer marks and wells, ranger's spread shots, and many other skills for all the classes. People who really can't get past the fact that GW2 doesn't have FPS targeting are, in my opinion limited in their sight of things.
Last but certainly not least is the aspect of skill interaction when used together and its effect on teamwork without a trinity. Previously mentioned in this thread, but a fairly simple example of the cross class combos, is the fire wall + arrow = flaming arrow. This isn't the full extent of the matter of skill interactions though, as many classes have ways of doing interesting things, even while soloing. For example, an engineer can set up a wall of fire,pull an enemy though the fire, blast it away and through the fire again, and make an enemy fairly useless while it is being pummeled by turrets and grenades and mines. gaurdians can add damage our provide protection to others by laying down skills that cause projectiles hitting an enmy to also heal allies meleeing the target. An elementalist can set up fields of electricity that cause bullets to stun enemies after passing through the field. a warrior or ranger can use various skills the fling fireballs off of their axes when swinging them through walls of fire, necromancers can allow different people to spread poison and desiease through a field of enemies, elementalists can knock enemies back with tridents and cause them to go though a wall of fire or even off a cliff or various other interesting things. These are all things that either require an amount of team work, or planning a series of attacks so as to increase your effectiveness, and they also require posiitioning beyond the normal levels that other games require.
One aspect of combat that really can't be realized by just watching the videos is that positioning is so important to GW2 that I would go so far as to say that it is the non-numerical aspect of combat that really makes it possible to say that GW2 requires more than just a knowledge of what the proper skill rotation is, and because it requires more than other games, it is more interesting than those games. Additionally, all of this positioning and increase in teamwork is possible without speaking with members or your group because of how the animations are being done in this game (all the people who say the game is too flashy should realize what this means).
One wierd thing that some people may not like is the removal of bodyblocking, though they have added the ability to physically intercept projectile attacks by getting in the way of the attack (warriors and guardians will have lots of fun doing this I imagine). I don't really care that they got rid of bodyblocking, but it may be a negative for some, so allow me to say that, when I played the game, I did not find it to be a negative.
tl;dr -- actually playing the game and just seeing video of it are 2 very different things entirely. Even those who follow the game veery closely may not understand everything about what is in the videos, mostly because of how different the combat is. The gameplay is VERY smooth and is VERY fun to play, even if you don't really know what you are doing (beginners to this kind of gaming will find it very easy to get into).
I used to TL;DR, but then I took a bullet point to the footnote.
Off topic but if you want a nail in the pen and paper rpg coffin try rolemaster. If you don't know it was a standalone system in itself but it could be taken across to say D&D and used in place of the games combat system. I fight could litterally take hours because of all the rolling and modifications based on weapon vs armor types and such. Very nitpicky to the point of absurdity.
On topic following example. I get what you are meaning and if GW2 does have variences in classes dodge abilities maybe that could appease that way of thinking. I think that is just one small aspect you give up when going from the usual mmo or rpg to an action one that adds active dodging. I think it's better than invisible dice rolls that weigh someones accuracy or expertise or w/e stat used against my evasion or dodge or parry or w/e stat used to determine if and how much damage I just took. I think if I have the ability to determine whether or not I take damage, be it half or full or w/e, it has a lot more freedom than relying on a stat and hoping the other person misses. I was a PnP RPG'r for years myself, but i feel this system has more controll over the beating I may or may not receive and how much of a whoopin I take.
RIP Jimmy "The Rev" Sullivan and Paul Gray.
Yes, and so does LOTRO. However, that's not what is meant by "cross-profession combos" in GW2. There is a difference between each class executing a particular attack or type of attack to bring about a huge finisher, and the ability for one player to lay down an area of effect in the world, such as fire, poison, healing, etc., and anyone coming along can shoot or swing a blade through that effect to spread it to enemies.This is not to argue that the latter is better, merely that it is distinctly different, and, furthermore, does not require the participants to be grouped to take advantage of the possibilities.
Ok, I wasn't sure if it was going to be similar or not. It seems like it is different.
At least they are trying to play around with some new mechanics. Although I don't think the dynamic content sustain interest in the long run.
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
I appreciate the links thx for that.
However i am not impressed at all i have to say the thief had 1 jump action which seemed to not use as much energy than the evading did but that's really only useful if u want to play your close combat rouge like a marksman and stay on distance all the time as soon as he went into close combat it was exactly like the Warrior Video.
I would even say that the Videos kind of proved my points since the Evading of both the Warrior and the thief seemed to be identical in close combat which is the only thing i didn't like to begin with.
That each class will have different means to approach a fight should be clear its like that in all MMOs and GW2 is no exception in that but that in no way has anything to do with the different in evading
ps. After watching the Videos i am kind of afraid if they will get the Balancing right the Thief did seem to have a HUGE advantage with range attacks compared to the warrior only relaying on close combat
Why is that? A Warrior is perfectly capable of using a bow too.
Thats one of the things people are going to need to learn to adapt to. Get over your notions of what X class should do vs Y class that youre used to in other MMOs, and worry about learning the classes in THIS game. There will be a lot of different ways to spec out your character to be better at various tasks through the Traits system. Being a Warrior does not mean you will only be good at melee combat and with X weapon. Its all about what you want to get out of your character and where you spend the points. Your skills will change based on your weapon, which means that the skills you have available are specifically suited to being good with that weapon. You wont have the typical "i can only use this skill with this weapon" that you see in a lot of games, because they both change. What will matter is wether or not you spend your Trait points on becoming more masterful with a certain type of weapon or performing a certain action. As theyve duiscussed before, theyre attempting to eliminate the holy trinity, and are trying to make all classes capable of doing most jobs just as well as other but through different methods. Because of that, picking your class wont always dictate your role or what youre good at like in most other games (oh, youre a warrior? youre automatically the tank. Oh youre a thief? youre automatically dps), it will be a combination of both class and traits and weapon choice allowing you flexibility.
Concerning traits, traits that are attatched to what weapon you are wielding will switch to the appropriate weapon traits (so long as you have set traits for that weapon set in advance.
Also, as you have said, everyone is going to be good at dealing damage as well as doing things to support allies or control the enemy. something that may not be clear to many people is that there can be benefit to rapid switching of weapons or attunements just to use a skill to support or control or to change your range with your target and then switch back after one or 2 actions and continue the fight as your were before. Weapon swapping can be used in a number of different ways.
you can have a ranged and a melee weapon on 2 different weapon sets to allow for changing in range, and I believe that this will be popular for warriors, but not really neccessary, as ranged weapons can have melee ranged skills (the warrior bow skill "kick"), or vice versa (the warrior greatsword skill "impaling throw"). It is likely some people will find it fun to just take a bow and a rifle when using a warrior and go straight range, The point being that each weapon you choose, ranged or other wise is selected to be used in a different situation or in different ranges from your target, allowing you to switch weapons when the range of your target changes.
you can use one weapons set to focus on damage and switch when you need a condition dealt or a particular support skill to help out you or your allies. I, personally, believe this is most likely to be what I will do most of the time. For example, I may play an elementalist and stay with fire most of the time, but switch to water to cast healing rain (which provides support healing, not a major heal or anything capable of sustaining somebody under fire) every once in a while and throw out a few freezes to help out myself or others when pressure is straining energy resources.
you can switch very frequently to either confuse foes (PvP) or to shake aggro (PvE, aggro works of a number of things, but a big factor is proximity). This is a tactic that also allows for elementalists to combo certain effects from different attunements to and become a very combo focused player (also applies to engineers with their kits). If your opponets in PvP don't pay attention, they may not be able to effectively play against your rapid changing of tactics. I can see this being very effective for thieves because of how their weapons have lots of movement skills, but it can also work for rangers as they switch from sword after leaping away from a target and pulling out a bow to cripple and kite the target, switching back to sword getting behind the foe and doing whatever seems effective after that. This is probably the most active, and most challenging way to use weapon swapping, and it is likely higher end players will be effective at it (for proof watch the thief in this video of a more experienced Anet player. http://www.justin.tv/alienwarearena/b/281618099 check in at about 7:30 if you want to see how he uses weapon swapping effectively)
I used to TL;DR, but then I took a bullet point to the footnote.
ill aslo add to the link above http://www.justin.tv/alienwarearena/b/281618099
My last post wasn't enough so heres another example. Notice the 23:30 mark of the video the Commentator also says that thiefs have built in evasion moves since they are lightly armored and lower health wise. We don't know all the details yet on the game but we do try to inform those that decide to nitpick a particular section of the big picture
RIP Jimmy "The Rev" Sullivan and Paul Gray.
I do aopriciate the info about the build in evasion moves tho and it actually gave me hope that the system will be Bette than I expected....even tho I think that if u offer active Eva u should stick with it and not cheap out with inactive Eva but its still better than what most other mmos offer and therefore a step in the right direction :-)
Regarding my concern about the balancing....well so what if the warrior can use a bow? Are u telling me balancing will not be a problem because all classes can use range attack?
If so than I'll have to say it would be the dumbest way ever to balance classes just make them all range attackers?.. seriously?..
I actually do not believe they will screw up balancing too much but your explanations that a warrior can use a bow is just dumb.
Are you saying that there is inactive evasion in GW2? I know of no such thing.
giving all classes the ability to do ranged attacks is an effective way of basically saying that range isn't really going to be anything special all on its own. Players are going to want to be at different ranges in different circumstances, such as when a big spider boss has the ability to simply squash you at melee range. People who have access to range won't be completely gimped in these situations. Also, it means that there won't be any class that is your basic ranged attacker.
balancing between classes is going to have to take into consideration a great deal of things, but let me ask the question. In what way is a warrior limited in its ability to fight, say, an elementalist? is the elementalist going to kite the warrior so that he will never hit him making the warrior useless? not likely, even if a warrior is using all melee weapons, the skills warriors have can allow for the warrior to close in and make it difficult for the target to get away. Thieves, with all their mobility will be useful in PvP because they are so extremely mobile, but it is likely that thier offensive potential or support potential will be limited in some aspects when compared to other classes (not weaker, just different).
Anet takes balancing seriously, and they play the game all the time to ensure the game is working properly. The way the classes get balanced is to test and test and test to see if one class is more capable than the other classes, and I am of the oppinion that they will get it mostly right when the game releases. I am also of the opinion that player skill is going to be a huge factor, and that this is going to make the game fairly difficult on many people, many of which are sure to complain that class X always loses against class Y. I think that you may have to play differently against different classes in order to win, and that may require always taking the ability to range, or always taking a cripple (prevents dodge rolling and slows movement) skill with you or any number of things that you may not do in PvE, and I think a lot of how players cooperate together will help balance out individual class differences, but players adjusting to each other and counter adjusting to each other is a fair bit of what makes PvP fun. Anet has talked about how such things have worked out in testing, and I am excited and impressed that it is working out (by their account, of course).
I think that it is unfair to call all the classes ranged attackers.
I think it is natural to worry about balance...just don't worry yourselves too much until the game actually comes out.
I used to TL;DR, but then I took a bullet point to the footnote.