I guess the question that needs to be answered is what makes this free time any different than the previous attempts? Why would people change the historical trend now and sudden subscribe in such numbers that it convinces SOE/LA that the game is worth saving.
What made this time different for me is the game has a lot of new things I've yet to see on previous combacks. My last being pretty long ago. Gameplay was a lot smoother this time around as well although my graphics card hates this game. Plus with the server transfers I'm no longer playing on a dead server, Flurry is pretty active, which is a plus for sure.
Other than that I wouldn't expect those who can't get past the NGE to really ever be pleased with anything modern SWG.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
You know the funny thing about this is, petition to save a dying game. Anybody remember the thousands of petitions to roll back the NGE. That never happened what makes anybody think a couple of thousand petitions compared to over 200k petitions will save a game.
What made this time different for me is the game has a lot of new things I've yet to see on previous combacks. My last being pretty long ago. Gameplay was a lot smoother this time around as well although my graphics card hates this game. Plus with the server transfers I'm no longer playing on a dead server, Flurry is pretty active, which is a plus for sure.
Other than that I wouldn't expect those who can't get past the NGE to really ever be pleased with anything modern SWG.
This isn't about disgruntled vets or people hung up on the NGE. Regardless of our internet pyschology of players, if someone is willing to log into the free time, they are willing to give the game a chance again.
Historically the free time offers, server mergers and other win back promotions have not resolved the population issues. In short, people still leave and they are not all bound up in event from 6 years ago. SWG is still a problem filled game.
Yes EQ was made by people who eventually went to SOE, but the culture and goals of Verant were drastically different than what SOE valued. That is why EQ has out performed everything that SOE has done since.
It also doesn't really matter what other companies do. The point was that SOE has a long history of releasing poor quality and poor management decisions. It is a trend found in their games from the formation of SOE to the current release (DCU). Plenty of potential and some people find enjoyment despite the poor quality. If SOE wasn't so sloppy, they would do much better.
People came back the 45 dayys, realised how awesome it was, and were going to stay this time.
Bull.
Myself and a lot of my friends came back for the 45, and very few of us (if any) were planning on staying. And alot of others I talked to said the same thing. I realize that's as anecdotal as it gets, but so was your comment.
Wow. I actually agreed with Kobie on something after all these years. Shocking.
Well, it all depends on who you spoke to. Before the announcement the bunch of people I spoke to, said they were staying.
The point was that SOE has a long history of releasing poor quality and poor management decisions. It is a trend found in their games from the formation of SOE to the current release (DCU). Plenty of potential and some people find enjoyment despite the poor quality. If SOE wasn't so sloppy, they would do much better.
SOE released EQ, SWG, Planetside and EQ2.
You may think that those were all poor quality, and you're entitled to your opinion, but they were each in their own way great fun and considered to be on par with and sometimes better than their contemporary MMO brethren. By a large group of MMO gamers they weren't considered poor quality games at all but AAA games in their own right, and MMO gamers that played those games didn't play them out of pity for those games. A number of design decisions the SOE teams made with them were bad, but they also did good with the gameplay and decisions they made when they created those games, it was certainly good and enjoyable enough to provide gameplay entertainment to hundreds of thousands of MMO gamers for years for many of them. From all this I don't see those games they made as 'poor quality' as they were, even if they could have done better with their games, SOE did pretty good when their people made those games and made them available to the gaming audience to play, including a number of the expansions for those games (EQ's Ruins of Kunark, Scars of Velious, SWG's Jump to Lightspeed, EQ2's Echoes of Faydwer, etc). In my opinion, of course
Anyway, this is leading nowhere, this is clearly a case of subjective opinions that are in disagreement with eachother. So I'm going to try do the sensible thing and agree to disagree here
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
SWG was clearly released well before it was ready. There were entire systems that were neither tested, completed or flat out missing. Even Smedly admits it needed at least another year in development before release. It was followed up by a cascade of poor management decisions that crippled the games potential (in terms of subs, stability and growth).
EQ2 was released early to beat wow to market. As a result many of the game systems were incomplete, rushed into the game to make the release and very untested. That is why SOE spent the first year completely revamping so many of the games systems. EQ2 was a game without direction and soul. Again, even John Smedley has admitted the game wasn't ready for release and lacked polish. I played on EQ2 test with the developers for the first year of release and the game was a complete design mess. That is why it was closing servers in the first year.
Planetside was pretty well recieved, but suffered SOE mismanagement and run into the ground.
DCU is almost a complete clone of the missteps of EQ2. The same level of "release it now and fix it later", but the market will no longer tolerate the 2001 mindset of game development.
EQ was made under different circumstances by a different studio and that is why it has outperformed everything SOE has done.
All of this pretty much comes from SOE, not my subjective opinion. Note that this doesn't mean there isn't fun that can be found in the game or they are complete and total waste. That doesn't change the nature of what they are and why they have resulted in such levels of decline.
The fun you are mentioning is a lot different from the quality of the actual games. I don't think we really disagree as much as you think we do.
SWG was clearly released well before it was ready. There were entire systems that were neither tested, completed or flat out missing. Even Smedly admits it needed at least another year in development before release. It was followed up by a cascade of poor management decisions that crippled the games potential (in terms of subs, stability and growth).
(snips bla)
All of this pretty much comes from SOE, not my subjective opinion. Note that this doesn't mean there isn't fun that can be found in the game or they are complete and total waste. That doesn't change the nature of what they are and why they have resulted in such levels of decline.
The fun you are mentioning is a lot different from the quality of the actual games. I don't think we really disagree as much as you think we do.
Of course SWG was released earlier than it should, heck, most of the MMO's that have been released the past 10-12 years were released before they should have, often with missing, broken, half finished or not thoroughly tested features, no surprise there
Still, it did pretty well for 1.5-2 years with a fairly stable population of 250-300k players until EQ2 and WoW arrived on the scene.
It's clear to me that you have a clear antipathy and grudge/dislike towards SOE. I don't, I actually don't care about SOE just like I don't care about most of the MMO companies, not negatively nor positively, just neutral. Which I think makes me see the bad decisions they made and the good ones and be able to value them equally. That is where we differ, there is no need for me to see them as a Big Bad Evil of which 90-99% of their actions and decisions were wrong.
I can appreciate the stuff they accomplished with EQ, Planetside, EQ2 and SWG, there was a lot of quality gameplay that SOE devs created in the original games and a number of expansions, but I also see the bad decisions they made with an NGE or a focus in follow up expansion that was too narrow and sloppy like with later EQ expansions. In short, to me they're a mix of hits and misses. But that's how I regard it
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Yup, SWG got really sick in May of 2005 and died in November.
The original game had so much potential, but it was released too early, with too much not ready to go, and you could see that in the game world...all those POIs that had no reason to be there, except as something to hang content on that never materialized.
The two years from July 2003 to May 2005 were great, though, despite al the bugs, the imbalances, the incessant nerfing and developers who clearly did not understand the game system, who obviously didn't play it, or they wouldn't have made so many of the decisions they made.
CH, Jedi, Commando, Smuggler, BH, Scout, Doctor, Chef, BE...yeah, lots of SWG time invested.
Thank you for posting that. I have signed it and passed it on.
{mod edit}
People ACCEPT the game for how it is, flaws and all and we LOVE to play it because its so much more different than the other games.
A decision was made for us and maybe we are signing it to let these big corporations know that we are not happy about it. Whether it fails or succeeds, at least we tried, so keep your stupid remarks to yourselves.
People were willing to try both games or even play them at the same time, but again LA being the assholes that they are, did what they did and well, here we are. I have played many different MMORPG's but NONE ever compared to SWG. So you elitist gamer pigs can STFU about "how dumb and pointless" it is to try and save our game. Don't pick it apart and name all the things that SoE could have done, blah, blah, blah. We ALREADY KNOW AND ARE STILL WILLING TO PLAY IT!!!!!!
If you asked anyone who is still playing SWG or the ones who plan to stick around until December, you would get some heartfelt stories about why they still play the game, why they love it so much. Don't be so quick to be such jerks because we are trying to save a game. Have a heart FFS.
Sadly, the game is doomed petition or not. See, I played the game when it first hit the shelves. I got my collector's edition box still on the top shelf of my desk. Sony, they amaze me. When the game hit and we jumped to it, they had deaf ears. We would voice our opinions about many things. I will use Jedi as an example.
There was to be no Jedi per the original developer posts. It was some extreme secret. Folks got upset because they saw Star Wars and assumed Jedi. Many of us pushed on, but there was little to do. We made our cities, got rich, and bored. I tried bounty hunter, well, without Jedi to kill... yeah, boring. We told the developers this, but our complaints fell on deaf ears once again. Eventually, the population figured out the secret, master certain classes to get Jedi, well, guess what? Folks had to master classes that they hated to get one they wanted. Cantinas filled with afk folks. It (you name it) was macroed galore. Those that got lucky and didn’t leave the game hit Jedi, but Jedi at that time was broken. Well, SOE finally gave up a hint of sorts. They gave us holocrons. The holocrons told you the 3 things you had to master. Yeah, get the wrong one and you will spend months unlearning relearning. Next they finally gave into questing for Jedi. You would raise your skills in a random profession and dump the points into Jedi mastery points. Yes, you would grind another profession to learn how to be a Jedi. Makes sense right? Luke was moonlighting as master dancer/doctor before he found the path to Jedi. Think folks were in the cantinas? Think again, they were macroing there. The game was a mess and SOE knew it.
I know I was a touch long winded there, but my point is simple. Sony Online Entertainment does not listen to their customers. They focus on the market trends and move accordingly. Lucas is shutting them off to remove any competition that SWTOR might have. If titles like Ultima Online are still in existence, then there is no other reason to shut off SWG. I wish you luck trying to save your game, but the odds are stacked against you.
Yup, SWG got really sick in May of 2005 and died in November.
The original game had so much potential, but it was released too early, with too much not ready to go, and you could see that in the game world...all those POIs that had no reason to be there, except as something to hang content on that never materialized.
The two years from July 2003 to May 2005 were great, though, despite al the bugs, the imbalances, the incessant nerfing and developers who clearly did not understand the game system, who obviously didn't play it, or they wouldn't have made so many of the decisions they made.
Even in 2011 they have no idea what they were doing. It's like watching monkies banging away at a keyboard. I had so much fun jacking with the developers and the GMs in the game. They are so stupid it's not even funny. I would take snap shots of them looking like total morons and post ithem on the SWG forums. I'm betting they wanted to delete my characters so badly. I'm puzzeled that anyone would trust SOE with the rights to any IP, it's not just SWG that they have tainted with their stupidity and horrible business ethics.
Reverse all changes in SWG from the point this quote was said, and I'd be happy to sign the petition. I would be esctatic and pay any amount to play in that world again.
Sadly it will never occur, much like my signature to support those who created and destroyed the single best MMO...ever.
Of course SWG was released earlier than it should, heck, most of the MMO's that have been released the past 10-12 years were released before they should have, often with missing, broken, half finished or not thoroughly tested features, no surprise there
Still, it did pretty well for 1.5-2 years with a fairly stable population of 250-300k players until EQ2 and WoW arrived on the scene.
It's clear to me that you have a clear antipathy and grudge/dislike towards SOE. I don't, I actually don't care about SOE just like I don't care about most of the MMO companies, not negatively nor positively, just neutral. Which I think makes me see the bad decisions they made and the good ones and be able to value them equally. That is where we differ, there is no need for me to see them as a Big Bad Evil of which 90-99% of their actions and decisions were wrong.
I can appreciate the stuff they accomplished with EQ, Planetside, EQ2 and SWG, there was a lot of quality gameplay that SOE devs created in the original games and a number of expansions, but I also see the bad decisions they made with an NGE or a focus in follow up expansion that was too narrow and sloppy like with later EQ expansions. In short, to me they're a mix of hits and misses. But that's how I regard it
Just because I criticize the operations and results doesn't mean I have no appreciation for the good things SOE has done. It just isn't relevant to the issues being discussed. I could gush about some of the things I loved in all of those games, but it would not alter their histories.
Talking about some people finding enjoyment in SWG for example doesn't diminish the problems that SWG suffered as a result of SOEs development and management procedures. Nor does talking about the failures of other companies make SOE somehow more successful than they actually are. I'm being very open about the results SOE has had for a long time. Trying to personalize it by making comments like the evil empire doesn't change the situation any.
I would bet that if you asked former SOE subscribers about their experiences the vast majority of them would relay to you negative experiences with SOE that ended up being the cause for their departure. Few if any would admit to having confidence in the abilities of the company to do most things to a decent level of quality. EQ2flames is filled with tons of examples and that is the unmoderated community forums for their flagship game.
One last thing, SWG was not stable population wise for the first 2 years. SWG was hemmorahging players 6 months in and a large cause for the holocron grind and the other knee jerk massive game changes. While many games can be labeled as "released early", SWG took that to an entirely different level.
All of this really ties everything together about the issues at hand.
I would bet that if you asked former SOE subscribers about their experiences the vast majority of them would relay to you negative experiences with SOE that ended up being the cause for their departure. Few if any would admit to having confidence in the abilities of the company to do most things to a decent level of quality. EQ2flames is filled with tons of examples and that is the unmoderated community forums for their flagship game.
One last thing, SWG was not stable population wise for the first 2 years. SWG was hemmorahging players 6 months in and a large cause for the holocron grind and the other knee jerk massive game changes. While many games can be labeled as "released early", SWG took that to an entirely different level.
Well, I can't speak for everyone, but I have no hard feelings regarding SOE. Flame sites mean little to me, you'll have hordes of people flame as good as all MMO's, that doesn't mean that that vocal group is representative for the whole playerbase. Just look at how WoW has been flamed and trashed on this site and put that next to the reality of 10-12 million WoW gamers during that time.
As for SWG's population, I'll just look at this chart, where you see the number of subs hovering around the 250-300k for 1-1.5 year:
I'll still take it with a grain of salt, but it shows several peaks of 300k in that time with no drops below 250k until EQ2 and WoW arrived. If figures had dropped far lower in that time, then I'm sure there have been (semi) official statements that said otherwise than the chart shows. If you have those source links, feel free to share.
Meh, this offtopic discussion keeps continuing and I'm guilty of continuing it as well. I'm going to stop right here, if you want to continue, feel free to PM me with the information you have or other arguments, as I said to others, I usually reply on them as well.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Of course SWG was released earlier than it should, heck, most of the MMO's that have been released the past 10-12 years were released before they should have, often with missing, broken, half finished or not thoroughly tested features, no surprise there
Still, it did pretty well for 1.5-2 years with a fairly stable population of 250-300k players until EQ2 and WoW arrived on the scene.
It's clear to me that you have a clear antipathy and grudge/dislike towards SOE. I don't, I actually don't care about SOE just like I don't care about most of the MMO companies, not negatively nor positively, just neutral. Which I think makes me see the bad decisions they made and the good ones and be able to value them equally. That is where we differ, there is no need for me to see them as a Big Bad Evil of which 90-99% of their actions and decisions were wrong.
I can appreciate the stuff they accomplished with EQ, Planetside, EQ2 and SWG, there was a lot of quality gameplay that SOE devs created in the original games and a number of expansions, but I also see the bad decisions they made with an NGE or a focus in follow up expansion that was too narrow and sloppy like with later EQ expansions. In short, to me they're a mix of hits and misses. But that's how I regard it
Just because I criticize the operations and results doesn't mean I have no appreciation for the good things SOE has done. It just isn't relevant to the issues being discussed. I could gush about some of the things I loved in all of those games, but it would not alter their histories.
Talking about some people finding enjoyment in SWG for example doesn't diminish the problems that SWG suffered as a result of SOEs development and management procedures. Nor does talking about the failures of other companies make SOE somehow more successful than they actually are. I'm being very open about the results SOE has had for a long time. Trying to personalize it by making comments like the evil empire doesn't change the situation any.
I would bet that if you asked former SOE subscribers about their experiences the vast majority of them would relay to you negative experiences with SOE that ended up being the cause for their departure. Few if any would admit to having confidence in the abilities of the company to do most things to a decent level of quality. EQ2flames is filled with tons of examples and that is the unmoderated community forums for their flagship game.
One last thing, SWG was not stable population wise for the first 2 years. SWG was hemmorahging players 6 months in and a large cause for the holocron grind and the other knee jerk massive game changes. While many games can be labeled as "released early", SWG took that to an entirely different level.
All of this really ties everything together about the issues at hand.
Couldn't agree more, I was in the SWG beta from very early on...
I will never forget the response on the beta boards when they said they were going to announce a launch date (and it was soon, real soon).. The overwhelming thought was the game was no where near ready.
Its one of the things that really stand out in my MMO memories.
I can tell you right now being in the hospitality industry in Las Vegas in a major strip hotel not to far from fan faire, that if there was a protest of 5k in a casino here, it wouldnt last long. The hotel would not allow it inside, it would be a major security risk with all the money floating around.
I was at fan faire for about two hours and I can tell you that there isn't 5k people here right now. It's just not gonna happen, its all rumor.
I would bet that if you asked former SOE subscribers about their experiences the vast majority of them would relay to you negative experiences with SOE that ended up being the cause for their departure. Few if any would admit to having confidence in the abilities of the company to do most things to a decent level of quality. EQ2flames is filled with tons of examples and that is the unmoderated community forums for their flagship game.
One last thing, SWG was not stable population wise for the first 2 years. SWG was hemmorahging players 6 months in and a large cause for the holocron grind and the other knee jerk massive game changes. While many games can be labeled as "released early", SWG took that to an entirely different level.
Well, I can't speak for everyone, but I have no hard feelings regarding SOE. Flame sites mean little to me, you'll have hordes of people flame as good as all MMO's, that doesn't mean that that vocal group is representative for the whole playerbase. Just look at how WoW has been flamed and trashed on this site and put that next to the reality of 10-12 million WoW gamers during that time.
As for SWG's population, I'll just look at this chart, where you see the number of subs hovering around the 250-300k for 1-1.5 year:
I'll still take it with a grain of salt, but it shows several peaks of 300k in that time with no drops below 250k until EQ2 and WoW arrived. If figures had dropped far lower in that time, then I'm sure there have been (semi) official statements that said otherwise than the chart shows. If you have those source links, feel free to share.
Meh, this offtopic discussion keeps continuing and I'm guilty of continuing it as well. I'm going to stop right here, if you want to continue, feel free to PM me with the information you have or other arguments, as I said to others, I usually reply on them as well.
The guy who ran that sight made up numbers. Xfire is a better site than that.
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
I can tell you right now being in the hospitality industry in Las Vegas in a major strip hotel not to far from fan faire, that if there was a protest of 5k in a casino here, it wouldnt last long. The hotel would not allow it inside, it would be a major security risk with all the money floating around.
I was at fan faire for about two hours and I can tell you that there isn't 5k people here right now. It's just not gonna happen, its all rumor.
I was at Fan Fair in Atlanta in 2006 when they were having the swg summit talks between the dev's and the players. We had one person who actually tried to hit Helios at that time the lead dev working on the project. I can tell you that security was in place, and this person was quickly removed. The rest of the event even though folks were allowed to voice their feelings about the nge, nobody else tried that. After watching the person taken out buy to rather large thugs.
Now mind you this was only one year after the NGE got us, there were only about 340 folks in that meeting including security, 8 devs, and yes even smedley who I personally gave a piece of my mind too.
So when I hear 5 k folks to protest, I laugh at that. Back in 2006 when all this stuff had just went bad and folks were still steaming mad we could not even manage 500 folks in Atlanta to show up.
I would bet they would be hard pressed to get 5k attendance for the entire event.
Comments
What made this time different for me is the game has a lot of new things I've yet to see on previous combacks. My last being pretty long ago. Gameplay was a lot smoother this time around as well although my graphics card hates this game. Plus with the server transfers I'm no longer playing on a dead server, Flurry is pretty active, which is a plus for sure.
Other than that I wouldn't expect those who can't get past the NGE to really ever be pleased with anything modern SWG.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Its donzo, the end.
I petitioned not that I think it will do any good
You know the funny thing about this is, petition to save a dying game. Anybody remember the thousands of petitions to roll back the NGE. That never happened what makes anybody think a couple of thousand petitions compared to over 200k petitions will save a game.
It over, we need to move on.
This isn't about disgruntled vets or people hung up on the NGE. Regardless of our internet pyschology of players, if someone is willing to log into the free time, they are willing to give the game a chance again.
Historically the free time offers, server mergers and other win back promotions have not resolved the population issues. In short, people still leave and they are not all bound up in event from 6 years ago. SWG is still a problem filled game.
I feel for the folks still playing. I hope you guys find something new to occupy your time.
For the folks crying "We said it would die"....I think you are 5 yrs late on your predictions eh?
Asking Devs to make AAA sandbox titles is like trying to get fine dining on a McDonalds dollar menu budget.
@MMO Maverik
Yes EQ was made by people who eventually went to SOE, but the culture and goals of Verant were drastically different than what SOE valued. That is why EQ has out performed everything that SOE has done since.
It also doesn't really matter what other companies do. The point was that SOE has a long history of releasing poor quality and poor management decisions. It is a trend found in their games from the formation of SOE to the current release (DCU). Plenty of potential and some people find enjoyment despite the poor quality. If SOE wasn't so sloppy, they would do much better.
Well, it all depends on who you spoke to. Before the announcement the bunch of people I spoke to, said they were staying.
Star Trek Online - Best Free MMORPG of 2012
SOE released EQ, SWG, Planetside and EQ2.
You may think that those were all poor quality, and you're entitled to your opinion, but they were each in their own way great fun and considered to be on par with and sometimes better than their contemporary MMO brethren. By a large group of MMO gamers they weren't considered poor quality games at all but AAA games in their own right, and MMO gamers that played those games didn't play them out of pity for those games. A number of design decisions the SOE teams made with them were bad, but they also did good with the gameplay and decisions they made when they created those games, it was certainly good and enjoyable enough to provide gameplay entertainment to hundreds of thousands of MMO gamers for years for many of them. From all this I don't see those games they made as 'poor quality' as they were, even if they could have done better with their games, SOE did pretty good when their people made those games and made them available to the gaming audience to play, including a number of the expansions for those games (EQ's Ruins of Kunark, Scars of Velious, SWG's Jump to Lightspeed, EQ2's Echoes of Faydwer, etc). In my opinion, of course
Anyway, this is leading nowhere, this is clearly a case of subjective opinions that are in disagreement with eachother. So I'm going to try do the sensible thing and agree to disagree here
/offtopic
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
SWG was clearly released well before it was ready. There were entire systems that were neither tested, completed or flat out missing. Even Smedly admits it needed at least another year in development before release. It was followed up by a cascade of poor management decisions that crippled the games potential (in terms of subs, stability and growth).
EQ2 was released early to beat wow to market. As a result many of the game systems were incomplete, rushed into the game to make the release and very untested. That is why SOE spent the first year completely revamping so many of the games systems. EQ2 was a game without direction and soul. Again, even John Smedley has admitted the game wasn't ready for release and lacked polish. I played on EQ2 test with the developers for the first year of release and the game was a complete design mess. That is why it was closing servers in the first year.
Planetside was pretty well recieved, but suffered SOE mismanagement and run into the ground.
DCU is almost a complete clone of the missteps of EQ2. The same level of "release it now and fix it later", but the market will no longer tolerate the 2001 mindset of game development.
EQ was made under different circumstances by a different studio and that is why it has outperformed everything SOE has done.
All of this pretty much comes from SOE, not my subjective opinion. Note that this doesn't mean there isn't fun that can be found in the game or they are complete and total waste. That doesn't change the nature of what they are and why they have resulted in such levels of decline.
The fun you are mentioning is a lot different from the quality of the actual games. I don't think we really disagree as much as you think we do.
It should die and any elements of the game design that was/is good should be polished and implemented into future games.
PIRATE LORDS
Of course SWG was released earlier than it should, heck, most of the MMO's that have been released the past 10-12 years were released before they should have, often with missing, broken, half finished or not thoroughly tested features, no surprise there
Still, it did pretty well for 1.5-2 years with a fairly stable population of 250-300k players until EQ2 and WoW arrived on the scene.
It's clear to me that you have a clear antipathy and grudge/dislike towards SOE. I don't, I actually don't care about SOE just like I don't care about most of the MMO companies, not negatively nor positively, just neutral. Which I think makes me see the bad decisions they made and the good ones and be able to value them equally. That is where we differ, there is no need for me to see them as a Big Bad Evil of which 90-99% of their actions and decisions were wrong.
I can appreciate the stuff they accomplished with EQ, Planetside, EQ2 and SWG, there was a lot of quality gameplay that SOE devs created in the original games and a number of expansions, but I also see the bad decisions they made with an NGE or a focus in follow up expansion that was too narrow and sloppy like with later EQ expansions. In short, to me they're a mix of hits and misses. But that's how I regard it
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
SWG died for me when the NGE was released and its been a long slow death. Its time to let it rest SOE should of closed it years ago.
Yup, SWG got really sick in May of 2005 and died in November.
The original game had so much potential, but it was released too early, with too much not ready to go, and you could see that in the game world...all those POIs that had no reason to be there, except as something to hang content on that never materialized.
The two years from July 2003 to May 2005 were great, though, despite al the bugs, the imbalances, the incessant nerfing and developers who clearly did not understand the game system, who obviously didn't play it, or they wouldn't have made so many of the decisions they made.
CH, Jedi, Commando, Smuggler, BH, Scout, Doctor, Chef, BE...yeah, lots of SWG time invested.
Once a denizen of Ahazi
Even in 2011 they have no idea what they were doing. It's like watching monkies banging away at a keyboard. I had so much fun jacking with the developers and the GMs in the game. They are so stupid it's not even funny. I would take snap shots of them looking like total morons and post ithem on the SWG forums. I'm betting they wanted to delete my characters so badly. I'm puzzeled that anyone would trust SOE with the rights to any IP, it's not just SWG that they have tainted with their stupidity and horrible business ethics.
"Don't bring a knife to a gunfight."
Reverse all changes in SWG from the point this quote was said, and I'd be happy to sign the petition. I would be esctatic and pay any amount to play in that world again.
Sadly it will never occur, much like my signature to support those who created and destroyed the single best MMO...ever.
Just because I criticize the operations and results doesn't mean I have no appreciation for the good things SOE has done. It just isn't relevant to the issues being discussed. I could gush about some of the things I loved in all of those games, but it would not alter their histories.
Talking about some people finding enjoyment in SWG for example doesn't diminish the problems that SWG suffered as a result of SOEs development and management procedures. Nor does talking about the failures of other companies make SOE somehow more successful than they actually are. I'm being very open about the results SOE has had for a long time. Trying to personalize it by making comments like the evil empire doesn't change the situation any.
I would bet that if you asked former SOE subscribers about their experiences the vast majority of them would relay to you negative experiences with SOE that ended up being the cause for their departure. Few if any would admit to having confidence in the abilities of the company to do most things to a decent level of quality. EQ2flames is filled with tons of examples and that is the unmoderated community forums for their flagship game.
One last thing, SWG was not stable population wise for the first 2 years. SWG was hemmorahging players 6 months in and a large cause for the holocron grind and the other knee jerk massive game changes. While many games can be labeled as "released early", SWG took that to an entirely different level.
All of this really ties everything together about the issues at hand.
Yeah I agree with this, someone needs to take what made SWG great and expand on it.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Well, I can't speak for everyone, but I have no hard feelings regarding SOE. Flame sites mean little to me, you'll have hordes of people flame as good as all MMO's, that doesn't mean that that vocal group is representative for the whole playerbase. Just look at how WoW has been flamed and trashed on this site and put that next to the reality of 10-12 million WoW gamers during that time.
As for SWG's population, I'll just look at this chart, where you see the number of subs hovering around the 250-300k for 1-1.5 year:
I'll still take it with a grain of salt, but it shows several peaks of 300k in that time with no drops below 250k until EQ2 and WoW arrived. If figures had dropped far lower in that time, then I'm sure there have been (semi) official statements that said otherwise than the chart shows. If you have those source links, feel free to share.
Meh, this offtopic discussion keeps continuing and I'm guilty of continuing it as well. I'm going to stop right here, if you want to continue, feel free to PM me with the information you have or other arguments, as I said to others, I usually reply on them as well.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Couldn't agree more, I was in the SWG beta from very early on...
I will never forget the response on the beta boards when they said they were going to announce a launch date (and it was soon, real soon).. The overwhelming thought was the game was no where near ready.
Its one of the things that really stand out in my MMO memories.
It's dead Jim.
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Ten Golden Rules Of Videogame Fanboyism
"SOE has probably united more gamers in hatred than Blizzard has subs"...daelnor
I can tell you right now being in the hospitality industry in Las Vegas in a major strip hotel not to far from fan faire, that if there was a protest of 5k in a casino here, it wouldnt last long. The hotel would not allow it inside, it would be a major security risk with all the money floating around.
I was at fan faire for about two hours and I can tell you that there isn't 5k people here right now. It's just not gonna happen, its all rumor.
The guy who ran that sight made up numbers. Xfire is a better site than that.
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
I was at Fan Fair in Atlanta in 2006 when they were having the swg summit talks between the dev's and the players. We had one person who actually tried to hit Helios at that time the lead dev working on the project. I can tell you that security was in place, and this person was quickly removed. The rest of the event even though folks were allowed to voice their feelings about the nge, nobody else tried that. After watching the person taken out buy to rather large thugs.
Now mind you this was only one year after the NGE got us, there were only about 340 folks in that meeting including security, 8 devs, and yes even smedley who I personally gave a piece of my mind too.
So when I hear 5 k folks to protest, I laugh at that. Back in 2006 when all this stuff had just went bad and folks were still steaming mad we could not even manage 500 folks in Atlanta to show up.
I would bet they would be hard pressed to get 5k attendance for the entire event.