Sandbox vs Themepark Discussion Thread

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  • ApexTKMApexTKM Starkiller BaseMember UncommonPosts: 334
    I just want to say, I notice people make assumptions whenever I mention I want to PvP in sandbox mainly over themepark.

    They think I want a mostly PvP mmo which is not the case. It baffles me when they mention Darkfall or mention FFA OPvP. In terms of mmorpgs, 90 percent PvP, 10 percent PvE is a recipe for failure.
    The acronym MMORPG use to mean Massive Multiplayer Online Role-Playing Game.

    But the acronym MMMORPG now currently means Microscopic Multiplayer Online Role-Playing Game. Kappa.
  • EldurianEldurian Member RarePosts: 1,076
    I think FFA Open World PvP with loot drop has a reason it's so consistently mentioned. For anyone who has actually gotten over the shock of "I just got killed while out questing, and lost my stuff" and stuck the game out for awhile it's a feature you'll eventually come to love. There are so many ways it fundamentally changes gameplay for the better it would be difficult to describe them in one post.

    However the problem you consistently see is that the majority of the current crowd drawn to these titles loves to flaunt their power and use it to abuse newbs. I don't think it's the gear loss that limits the popularity of these games so much as losing your gear to a player who's been playing for months or years a few minutes after you start playing.

    EVE has managed to be successful despite having Open World FFA PvP with gear loss by zoning the game into areas with different levels of safety. However it's still a half-baked solution. EVE openly encourages scamming, abuse of the mechanics to get newbs to flag themselves without knowing it, and has built in a war mechanic that makes it so safe zones are no longer safe the moment you join a corporation.

    Addressing these concerns and making a game that allows for Open World PvP without being 90% PvP and 10% PvE would be one of the most major things ever pulled off in an MMO.

    I've written multiple topics on the subject in my notes I've taken for my ideal MMO:
    1. Risk vs. Reward and Culture
    2. Why Play an Open World PvP Sandbox for Crafting and PvE?
    3. Alignments

    If you take the time to read through those, I hope you can see the feasible possibility of a Open World Sandbox with PvP that protects players who don't want to be subjected to PvP from abuse starting to form.

    Still a game built and driven by the players, but not a game driven entirely by a small handful of sociopaths.
  • RobokappRobokapp Dublin, OHMember RarePosts: 5,851
    Eldurian said:

    Still a game built and driven by the players, but not a game driven entirely by a small handful of sociopaths.
    wouldn't that more closely replicate the real world?

    See: North Korea, nazi germany, Soviet Russia etc

    image

  • EldurianEldurian Member RarePosts: 1,076
    If anyone wanted 100% the real world they wouldn't be playing a video game. I'm a huge fan of immersion but fun > realism every single time.
  • DMKanoDMKano Gamercentral, AKMember LegendaryPosts: 15,903
    After 24 pages of this thread - one thing is becoming clear - this entire topic grows more pointless each passing day as both sandboxes and themeparks are become less relevant.

    If this thread stays around for a few more years - it will turn into a pager vs blackberry discussion - with people realizing they're discussing things whose time has passed.



  • MalcanisMalcanis LondonMember UncommonPosts: 3,292
    DMKano said:
    After 24 pages of this thread - one thing is becoming clear - this entire topic grows more pointless each passing day as both sandboxes and themeparks are become less relevant.

    If this thread stays around for a few more years - it will turn into a pager vs blackberry discussion - with people realizing they're discussing things whose time has passed.




    EVE was at 50k logged in today.

    We'll still be here.

    Give me liberty or give me lasers

  • Dagon13Dagon13 Member UncommonPosts: 476
    Eldurian said:
    I think FFA Open World PvP with loot drop has a reason it's so consistently mentioned. For anyone who has actually gotten over the shock of "I just got killed while out questing, and lost my stuff" and stuck the game out for awhile it's a feature you'll eventually come to love. There are so many ways it fundamentally changes gameplay for the better it would be difficult to describe them in one post.

    However the problem you consistently see is that the majority of the current crowd drawn to these titles loves to flaunt their power and use it to abuse newbs. I don't think it's the gear loss that limits the popularity of these games so much as losing your gear to a player who's been playing for months or years a few minutes after you start playing.

    EVE has managed to be successful despite having Open World FFA PvP with gear loss by zoning the game into areas with different levels of safety. However it's still a half-baked solution. EVE openly encourages scamming, abuse of the mechanics to get newbs to flag themselves without knowing it, and has built in a war mechanic that makes it so safe zones are no longer safe the moment you join a corporation.

    Addressing these concerns and making a game that allows for Open World PvP without being 90% PvP and 10% PvE would be one of the most major things ever pulled off in an MMO.

    I've written multiple topics on the subject in my notes I've taken for my ideal MMO:
    1. Risk vs. Reward and Culture
    2. Why Play an Open World PvP Sandbox for Crafting and PvE?
    3. Alignments

    If you take the time to read through those, I hope you can see the feasible possibility of a Open World Sandbox with PvP that protects players who don't want to be subjected to PvP from abuse starting to form.

    Still a game built and driven by the players, but not a game driven entirely by a small handful of sociopaths.
    I read through your notes and what stood out most to me was your support for a complex set of rules and mechanics to govern the world.  You seem to recognize that chaos does not make a game.  I am absolutely, 100% behind this concept.

    Stripping all content from an MMO does not make it a sandbox, it makes in an MMO without content.  These rules and mechanics are the tools that will help players create successful game play.
  • SavageHorizonSavageHorizon ParisMember RarePosts: 3,232
    Wurm Online is the pinnacle of what a sandbox  mmo should be, you can't get more sand box than minecrafts daddy.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wurm_Online




  • ApexTKMApexTKM Starkiller BaseMember UncommonPosts: 334
    I just want to put in how I honestly felt like a decade ago in this post because I don't remember ever posting about them but only praising Sandbox MMOs.

    Based on my experience playing a sandbox mmo and switching to play a themepark mmo for the first time felt like switching over to play a dumbed-down game. At the time I've never heard of raids/dungeons before but only of grouping up with people and fighting tough mobs throughout the world. I never understood the concept of it or the enjoyment of doing raids/dungeons.

    SWG was so ahead of its time put in excellent ideas that I liked and couldn't leave that game and stuck with it for so many years. When SWG wanted to be WoW it went down the toilet and some of my friends who switched over from SWG to WoW wanted me to try WoW. Those friends like WoW, its just me now trying the game out for the first time. Playing that just wasn't the same and after playing SWTOR I felt the same way.

    I've been looking for the next SWG ever since and its coming but years away. Even with SWG's flaws it was the greatest MMO I've ever played with the greatest ideas. But now I matured as a gamer over time and enjoy WoW for what it is.

    I can go on forever talking about this topic man.
    The acronym MMORPG use to mean Massive Multiplayer Online Role-Playing Game.

    But the acronym MMMORPG now currently means Microscopic Multiplayer Online Role-Playing Game. Kappa.
  • waynejr2waynejr2 West Toluca Lake, CAMember EpicPosts: 7,441
    DMKano said:
    After 24 pages of this thread - one thing is becoming clear - this entire topic grows more pointless each passing day as both sandboxes and themeparks are become less relevant.

    If this thread stays around for a few more years - it will turn into a pager vs blackberry discussion - with people realizing they're discussing things whose time has passed.




    What if the terms sandbox and themepark are essentially meaningless in an mmoRPG context?  We haven't got a consensus on a definition after all these years.  Perhaps there aren't definition?  I suspect too much of it is based on "feelings".
    http://www.youhaventlived.com/qblog/2010/QBlog190810A.html  

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  • EldurianEldurian Member RarePosts: 1,076
    waynejr2 said:
    DMKano said:
    After 24 pages of this thread - one thing is becoming clear - this entire topic grows more pointless each passing day as both sandboxes and themeparks are become less relevant.

    If this thread stays around for a few more years - it will turn into a pager vs blackberry discussion - with people realizing they're discussing things whose time has passed.




    What if the terms sandbox and themepark are essentially meaningless in an mmoRPG context?  We haven't got a consensus on a definition after all these years.  Perhaps there aren't definition?  I suspect too much of it is based on "feelings".
    You don't need consensus on a definition for there to be a definition. People can be wrong you know. 
  • AnceloAncelo Member CommonPosts: 9

    Haha I was wondering when this would be created. :)

    Venge

    @ VengeSunsoar Hehe right?
  • LemureLemure Member UncommonPosts: 24
    I think there is a comfortable place between a sandbox and theme park 
  • EldurianEldurian Member RarePosts: 1,076
    Lemure said:
    I think there is a comfortable place between a sandbox and theme park 
    I kind of agree but would like to point out that a sandbox and themepark hybrid can take many different forms. So far it's mostly taken the form of sandbox content splashed into a themepark world.

    I think themepark content splashed into a sandbox world would ultimately yield the best results.
  • ApexTKMApexTKM Starkiller BaseMember UncommonPosts: 334
    Eldurian said:

    I think themepark content splashed into a sandbox world would ultimately yield the best results.
    The NGE version of SWG was exactly that but like I said I rather be playing SWG NGE than WoW or those other mmos that are out there.
    The acronym MMORPG use to mean Massive Multiplayer Online Role-Playing Game.

    But the acronym MMMORPG now currently means Microscopic Multiplayer Online Role-Playing Game. Kappa.
  • nerovergilnerovergil klMember UncommonPosts: 570
    sandbox = dev create a world and dynamic events/quest. player create their own story, endless possibilities

    themepark = dev create a story, player just follow the path, perhaps 2,3 different ending
  • OzmodanOzmodan Hilliard, OHMember RarePosts: 8,477
    DMKano said:
    After 24 pages of this thread - one thing is becoming clear - this entire topic grows more pointless each passing day as both sandboxes and themeparks are become less relevant.

    If this thread stays around for a few more years - it will turn into a pager vs blackberry discussion - with people realizing they're discussing things whose time has passed.



    I have to disagree with that.  There is a huge difference between the sub genres and I do not see these sub genres merging anytime in the near future. On one hand you have the strict confines of a themepark and granted some of them at least attempt to give you some flexibility, but you are still basically locked into their design choices.  On the other side of the coin you have freedom of choice in developing your character and potentially it's surroundings.

    I think the problem that people have with these sub genres is that there are no really good sandboxes out there right now to compare to.  They get confused with games like ArchAge with people attempting to call them sandboxes when they clearly are not.  Games like Darkfall confuse people too, that full loot pvp is a necessary part of a sandbox.  It can be, but it really depends how it is implemented.  

    If there is a common ground, noone has found it yet.  Guess we will have to wait to see what the future brings.
  • TheocritusTheocritus Gary, INMember RarePosts: 5,228
    sandbox = dev create a world and dynamic events/quest. player create their own story, endless possibilities

    themepark = dev create a story, player just follow the path, perhaps 2,3 different ending
    I still consider dynamic events mroe theme park than sandbox...Sandbox to me means I can go where I wanna go and do what I wanna do......Problem is in msot of them its boring to do anything......Themeparks are just as bad as all you do is follow some pre written script and go thru the motions to end game.
  • ExcessionExcession NottinghamMember UncommonPosts: 482
    Why is always Themepark v Sandbox?

    Personally, I think it should be the best of both, combined into one.

    A creative person is motivated by the desire to achieve, not the desire to beat others.

  • AztokAztok Member UncommonPosts: 10
    Sandbox will always win over theme park to me. I wish the mmorpg market would of followed the Ultima Online path rather than the EQ path. The mmorpg market would be in a much better state, and not full of wow clones which WoW was just a clone of EQ so there you have it.
  • nerovergilnerovergil klMember UncommonPosts: 570
    sandbox support alternate characters. while themepark make same quest boring
  • VipaahVipaah Member CommonPosts: 6
    Cool beans.
  • WizardryWizardry Ontario, CanadaMember EpicPosts: 12,508
    edited March 26
    Themepark means yellow markers over npc heads and on maps and full of hand holding and VERY linear.

    Sandbox is a mis-used term that is used right now to mean ,less content ,less effort.
    I don't like what either stands for.

    If you claim to be making a mmorpg then  i EXPECT to see ideals and design that support BOTH the MMO and the RPG.That does NOT mean what the normal public has accepted as mmorpg,but instead what is actually MMO and RPG by definition.

    Example rpg does NOT mean level numbers
    MMO does not mean multiple players that LOGIN,you have to actually SUPPORT the structure beyond a login screen.This would be similar to going to a baseball game,just because i passed though the turnstile and handed my ticket in,does not mean i am officially watching a baseball game.Sitting in the seat does no mean i am watching a baseball game,there actually has to be REAL LIVE elements that support an actual baseball game.



    Post edited by Wizardry on

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  • ethanlallaethanlalla Member UncommonPosts: 104
    SWG was the best game ever... I am playing SWTOR for now, I wont lie though it's not the same. Not even close. Granted I find SWTOR to be a solid game and definitely worth your time if you like star wars..
    Playing or interested in playing SWTOR? Use my referral link here and we will both get rewards! Including a week of game time for you, if you are a preferred status player! Click here for more info!
  • dswag22dswag22 Member CommonPosts: 19
    lol been waiting too long for this!
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