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does PvP have to equal Everything can beat everything?

Swollen_BeefSwollen_Beef Tampa, FLPosts: 200Member

Should a cloth wearing healing class be afforded the same chance to beat a chain wearing DPS class?

Or should a developer flat out refuse to allow the everyone can beat everyone mentality?

in EVE you wont see a logistics ship roll up on a HAC and stand toe to toe with one. 

But in WoW.....

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  • JB47394JB47394 Sterling, VAPosts: 409Member

    Originally posted by Swollen_Beef

    Should a cloth wearing healing class be afforded the same chance to beat a chain wearing DPS class?

    Or should a developer flat out refuse to allow the everyone can beat everyone mentality?

    If the game allows only one combat role per character, then the developer would be wise to allow any character to beat any other.  If the game allows characters to change combat role with a change of gear, then the game can easily say that one role easily defeats another in direct combat.

    World of Warcraft is class-based and allows essentially one combat role per character - its class.  EVE Online is gear-based and allows change of combat role by change of ship.

  • A.SerenityA.Serenity LondonPosts: 8Member

    Originally posted by JB47394

    Originally posted by Swollen_Beef

    Should a cloth wearing healing class be afforded the same chance to beat a chain wearing DPS class?

    Or should a developer flat out refuse to allow the everyone can beat everyone mentality?

    If the game allows only one combat role per character, then the developer would be wise to allow any character to beat any other.  If the game allows characters to change combat role with a change of gear, then the game can easily say that one role easily defeats another in direct combat.

    World of Warcraft is class-based and allows essentially one combat role per character - its class.  EVE Online is gear-based and allows change of combat role by change of ship.

    That is true about World of Warcraft, however WoW isn't 'that' limiting.  Within a class you can perform different roles.  Like a Warrior can be a Tank or a Damage Dealer, or the Priest a Healer or a Damage Dealer (Shadow).  Or let's say for the Druid it can perform all 3 roles, Tank, Healer, Damage Dealer.  Though agreed you're limited to the class, but there is a lot you can do with that particular class. :)

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  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Boca Raton, FLPosts: 4,508Member Uncommon

    The quest for PvP "balance" has ruined the vast majority of PvP games.  PvP has turned into an E-Sport.. with scoreboards and timers.  I don't want to play CTF or deathmatch or king of the hill.. if I did I'd do it in a FPS.   I just want any PvP to be a natural part of the world in which I am playing.  With real repercushions.

     

    Balance between classes is not only something that I don't feel has to exist... but it shouldn't even be a development goal.  I don't care if Johnny Fireball can kick my ass one on one.  That just means I should bring a friend.  It adds variety to the game and an element of the unknown instead of everything being cookie-cutter.

     

    Edit to add: If we want balance in a game we shuld just remove levels and skills.. and equipment.  Everyone is even...   doesn't sound like I game that I would personally want to play though.

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  • CactusJackCactusJack South, FLPosts: 393Member

    No. Fill out your role. In regards to EvE..you can fit a logistics ship with damage mods...so technically you could destroy  a dps ship..say one that was fitted only for travel. In DF..back when I played....everyone wore bone armor b/c it gave the best resist vs least intrusive magic fizzle.

    In PnP games...I have seen several mage types destroy armor clad warriors with magic...so I guess your question is "can a cloth wearing healing class be afforded the same chance to beat a chain wearing DPS class in melee combat?? I would say no.

    A. Serenity touched on the different roles that druids, etc can play so I think your question is a bit too broad. I personally have seen a corpmate OWN people in a scimitar in EvE...and up til that point...I think I had only ever seen one in an Alliance Tourney.

     

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  • ThaneThane berlinPosts: 2,232Member Uncommon

    planetside did it propperly, let's hope sony does not screw it for PS Next :)

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  • ReizlaReizla AlkmaarPosts: 3,301Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Swollen_Beef

    Should a cloth wearing healing class be afforded the same chance to beat a chain wearing DPS class?

    Or should a developer flat out refuse to allow the everyone can beat everyone mentality?

    in EVE you wont see a logistics ship roll up on a HAC and stand toe to toe with one. 

    But in WoW.....

    Short answer: NO

    Seen it happen in Aion too where a healer (me)  kicked a tank, only because of the healing... Lame IMO. healer = support and certainly no PvP class.

    Look at Lineage II (odly enough same developer as Aion). I think there they've graped the concept of healers & buffers as they should be - 100% support class. No main PvP but keep the actual PvPers alive.

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  • A.SerenityA.Serenity LondonPosts: 8Member

    Originally posted by Slapshot1188

    The quest for PvP "balance" has ruined the vast majority of PvP games.  PvP has turned into an E-Sport.. with scoreboards and timers.  I don't want to play CTF or deathmatch or king of the hill.. if I did I'd do it in a FPS.   I just want any PvP to be a natural part of the world in which I am playing.  With real repercushions.

     

    Balance between classes is not only something that I don't feel has to exist... but it shouldn't even be a development goal.  I don't care if Johnny Fireball can kick my ass one on one.  That just means I should bring a friend.  It adds variety to the game and an element of the unknown instead of everything being cookie-cutter.

     

    Edit to add: If we want balance in a game we shuld just remove levels and skills.. and equipment.  Everyone is even...   doesn't sound like I game that I would personally want to play though.

    I really agree with you on this.  Personally I didn't think many players thought this way anymore.  So it is nice to know there are others still out there.

    Seems PVP these days is slowly evolving into FPS styled, where there is no open world element and it is all controlled in an instanced enviroment be is 10 vs 10... 40 vs 40...  Would be nice if games went back to when it wasn't a tournament...

    You need that element of fear of walking through the woods and a 'PK' could be lurking nearby...

    image

  • Swollen_BeefSwollen_Beef Tampa, FLPosts: 200Member

    If a mele class closes in on a caster, then the mele should win, but if the caster can nuke down the mele before he gets in range then it makes sense the caster wins out. 

    But with stuns, purges, damage absorb, insta cloak, and more items than an Ikea outlet.

    Someone made a post somewhere on the forum (forget where i read it) that it seems a bit absurd that a non-magic class is allowed an ability that removes all magic. Despite having ZERO understanding of magic and how it works.

  • JB47394JB47394 Sterling, VAPosts: 409Member

    Originally posted by A.Serenity

    That is true about World of Warcraft, however WoW isn't 'that' limiting.  Within a class you can perform different roles.  [...]  Though agreed you're limited to the class, but there is a lot you can do with that particular class. :)

    Yup.  The point is that each class has to have the ability to compete in PvP solo.  In contrast, not every ship in EVE Online has to have the ability to compete in PvP solo.  This gives CCP the freedom to design ships that are utterly useless in solo combat, but are ideal for other activities.  That's the crux of the point.

    I'm of the opinion that gear-based roles are infinitely superior to class-based roles.  That's true for both developers and players.  Everyone goes on about how restrictive the class trinity is in fantasy games.  To open things up, go with gear-based roles.  With that one change, player characters can temporarily adopt extremely niche roles in a group, allowing for all sorts of group dynamics.  All you have to do is change your gear (and have the requisite character skills).  That will give you the abilities of that gear and temporarily gimp your character otherwise.

    Because EVE Online takes place in a science fiction setting, they can restrict gear changes by forcing players to change whole ships.  That's just like changing characters, which is why so many people find EVE Online disasteful.  "I don't want to be a spaceship."  While it alienates players, it makes mutually-exclusive gear changes very easy.  Wholesale gear changes in a fantasy setting are a bit more problematic.

    For example there's the problem of a character wearing plate mail, shield, bow, magical rings, lock picks and sharpening stones.  There's nothing inherent in the fantasy setting that makes it obvious why a character cannot wear the gear for most every activity in the game.  Yet because the goal is to make roles mutually exclusive, something would have to be worked out.  The classic example is that metal interferes with magic, so characters pursuing a magical role would leave their metal at home.

  • CernanCernan Charlotte, NCPosts: 359Member

    Short answer:  Yes.

     

    As another poster said, the question isn't always that simple.  The cloth wearing healer shouldn't be able to beat the chain wearing melee in melee combat.  The healer should also be forced to heal more than damage making the combat long and drawn out.  The melee should ideally just give up because of the length of combat.  Oh how I miss thee DAoC.

    To use DAoC references, I believe they did a lot of things right in this regard.

    Wardens - awesome support class.  They could cast "bubbles" to negate one source of damage every few seconds.  They also had some minor healing.  However, their own damage was extremely weak.  You could literally fight a warden for 3 to 5 minutes.  Do they run out of mana or do you eventually die a slow death to them.  Solution - bring a second person.  The bubble only negates one damage source.  Bring two and the warden goes down.

    Bolt casters - The longest range magic in the game.  Most bolt casters had 2 bolts on long recast timers with some weak DDs.  The bolts could be blocked by shield wearers.  They were extremely damaging.  Most classes would die if hit by both.  However, if you could block the bolts or get into melee range then the caster was dead.

     

    I also miss how DAoC had crowd control classes.  Everyone didn't have stuns, silences, fears, or mezzes.  You had classes that specialized in crowd control.  They weren't much good at anything else, but they were great at controlling entire groups of other people.  Now you have games like in Rift were melee plate wearers have AE fear.  You also have plate wearers with leaps and rogues with teleports to close the distance to casters.  The point is supposed to be that the caster is strong from far away.  You shouldn't be able to instantly close the distance.  Don't get me wrong.  I'm not just blaming Rift.  I still play it.  Other games do this as well. 

     

  • AxehiltAxehilt San Francisco, CAPosts: 8,746Member Uncommon

    In a pure PVP game, skill beats everything.

    MMORPGs aren't pure PVP experiences.

    (Skill being the quality of your team's decisions combined with your ability to execute on those decisions.)

    Chess, Football, and Team Fortress 2 would be ruined if they allowed zerging or progression to influence outcome.  Instead, matches are completely determined by each player/team's skill.

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  • Swollen_BeefSwollen_Beef Tampa, FLPosts: 200Member

    Originally posted by Axehilt

    In a pure PVP game, skill beats everything.

    MMORPGs aren't pure PVP experiences.

    (Skill being the quality of your team's decisions combined with your ability to execute on those decisions.)

    Chess, Football, and Team Fortress 2 would be ruined if they allowed zerging or progression to influence outcome.  Instead, matches are completely determined by each player/team's skill.

    TF2 doesn't have 20 sided dice either. 

    its apples and oranges. You can make a game all day long that promotes zerging, has 20 different classes each with their own uniqe abilites, and instead of playing a game better suited to their desires, you have players that will bitch and try to force the devs to re-make the game in the player's image. 

  • AxehiltAxehilt San Francisco, CAPosts: 8,746Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Swollen_Beef

    Originally posted by Axehilt

    In a pure PVP game, skill beats everything.

    MMORPGs aren't pure PVP experiences.

    (Skill being the quality of your team's decisions combined with your ability to execute on those decisions.)

    Chess, Football, and Team Fortress 2 would be ruined if they allowed zerging or progression to influence outcome.  Instead, matches are completely determined by each player/team's skill.

    TF2 doesn't have 20 sided dice either. 

    its apples and oranges. You can make a game all day long that promotes zerging, has 20 different classes each with their own uniqe abilites, and instead of playing a game better suited to their desires, you have players that will bitch and try to force the devs to re-make the game in the player's image. 

    Technically TF2 does have random elements (critical hits) but they're actually sort of a negative for the game the way they're designed.

    PVP design isn't quite apples and oranges.  Whether it's Chess, an FPS, or whatever, the underlying fundamental design of a good PVP game remains the same.  

    The supporter of MMORPG PVP's best bet in discussions on PVP is to embrace what the PVP is: casual. It's a tough argument to beat, to point out that there's a lot of casual PVPers who want PVP to hinge upon very simple factors ("I brought more friends", "I grinded longer".)

    If you also point out that skilled PVP is only won by the skilled (and most people aren't, so most people don't experience victory) then that further solidifies the argument.  And you begin to see why a significant number of these casual PVP experiences exist.

    It may be a waste of time for players to want devs to re-make the game, but those underlying complaints are valid.  And if a new dev provides a superior solution to those complaints, those players will shift over to the new game.  (Which is why it's an interesting topic to discuss, despite casual PVP being a fundamental shortcoming of MMORPGs.)  Granted, the point of MMORPG PVP is to intentionally be casual.  So who's to say how many casual PVPers you lose by retaining the PVP purists.

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  • ThorqemadaThorqemada BerlinPosts: 1,277Member Uncommon

    FUCK the Balance!

    It destroys any game, any fun, any diversity bcs most time people speak of balance they either mean total equality of every class/skill or total domination for the class/skill they use.

    Dont Balance games any longer, give any class/skill a use that is logical in context to the gameworld and let the player take their choice.

    If the player wants to be a librarian the player will simply not be able to compete in the gladiatorgames but may have knowledge how to translate dragon runes leading to a hidden treasure.

    But since players have been reared to become mass murderer and evrything else is seen as inferior gameplay and mind challenging gameplay is eleminated more and more form any game i only can hope some developers dares to ignore the crybabies and produce a game that is not only about dps...

    A really good game does not care for equality - its goal is to achive diversity!

    And as long Balance means to equal anything, to plane all differences in dps and
    survivability i say again: FUCK IT!
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  • k11keeperk11keeper Kalama, WAPosts: 1,056Member Uncommon

    When I think of good PvP two games come to mind, DAoC and L2. What do both of these games have in common? They had massive PvP battles where there was an emphasis on filling a role more then 1v1. For a game to have good PvP I think this is a necessity. If everyone is so evenly matched where are the tactics? It just becomes mindless zerging which has been beat to death in this topic.

    When you have certain classes that are better suited to take down other classes, and people playing support roles the PvP becomes more like a team sport to me, and more importantly adds to that Massively part of MMORPG.

  • osc8rosc8r SydPosts: 687Member

    They just need to make player skill play a much larger part in MMO's - as it used to. No more autohoming projectiles or spells. No more gear or level's that provide a MASSIVE advantage of others. Make it so gear and level's provide worthwhile benefits, but nothing drastic.

    AC1 had it right. I remember re-rolling on AC1 (had a level 50) and was only level 5, and a level 18 attacked me. After a 2 minute+ fight I won... just. Although he had a clar advantage over me, I managed to make up for the difference by playing smart, and using personal 'skill'. And this was a common theme, a group of skilled tight nit players could take on a group of higher level and better geared players and win.

    In MMO's these days that level 5 probably wouldn't even be able to kill a level 18 character even if he was afk, it would just show 'resist resist, dodge'.

    Less purples, more player skill!

  • EerazerEerazer leicesterPosts: 140Member

    all i know is vanilla wow was the most fun i ever had in pvp with the paper scissors stone mechanic the classes had back then. 

  • BrenelaelBrenelael Warren, MEPosts: 3,996Member

    Well while I do agree with the majority that ballancing a PvP game so everyone has an equal chance in PvP is not the best choice you guys are way off about EVE. In EVE if I spend months training up my skills to be an uber miner I can't just one day decide I want to PvP jump in a battleship and go own people. Without the properly trained skills which would take just as much time to train as the months I speant becoming a top miner I'd be just as effective if I took my mining barge into PvP. No ship is going to make you magically uber if you haven't trained the proper skill set adaquately.

     

    PvP in EVE is more about how you've trained your skills to utilize your ship and it's fittings than the ship itself.

     

    Bren

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  • dreamer05dreamer05 Kansas City, MOPosts: 545Member Uncommon

    I do very strongly believe DAoC had it best when it came to pvp.  Such a variety in classes and specialities made it a wonderful pvp game.  I was a Frostalf Mend/Pac healer which meant I was the main healer but also had the best CC for Midgard.  It was a really fun mix. 

     

    I do believe however that Rift has done many things right.  It is not a pvp game and it is certainly not mind bogglingly amazing pvp but the mix of skills between the classes and souls really makes pvp fun.

     

    I really wish they would do a remake of DAoC.  I would never look at another game.

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  • DeathofsageDeathofsage Winston, PAPosts: 998Member

    For a while, at least, WoW tried to claim the anti-class system. Every class had an anti-class but in one very famous example, Blizzard made a small nerf to warriors that turned Warrior >= Mage to Mage >>> Warrior. Frost mages are, arguabilly for the lack of skill needed to do it dcently, the best kiters in that game. Mage is Blizzard's PVP baby though.

    (I can't help that that sounds like QQ, but it isn't. the only PVP I did was on a priest so mages weren't my concern, it was those damn plate dps).

    I do realize that PVE is easier than PVP (scripted encounters), but I'd truly appreciate a game another PVE-focused game. Glaring OP-ness should always be fixed but I think a game that let PVE abilities be PVE abilitied would be very welcome. Sooo welcome. Maybe we might see some great new encounters and abilities if it didn't matter how well another class could counter the abilities used to counter a boss.

    WoW loves to nerf tanks for pvp balance when tanks, largely, don't PVP. Now my abilitie to take hits for 75% of my health is nerfed because I would never take my tank into an arena? Yeah.. no thanks.

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  • BazharkhanBazharkhan The Pad, VAPosts: 29Member

    The idea of class balance owes its prickliness (yay imaginary vocabulary/spelling) to the baby-daddy of all RPGs, table-top war gaming.  When Gygax and Co. started out, their onus was on the effect that any class would have on a game that lives and breathes utter balance ad nauseum.  For me, RPGs do not have to reflect balance as a mirror-effect... i.e. every class does not and should not need to be utterly equal to the others.  Can anyone argue that Gandalf's class was balanced?  That Emperor Palpatine's was balanced? Was Drizzt *apologies*, Fafhrd, Beowulf, Cu Chulainn, Hercules, The Dad from Good Times, Mike Tyson, Meatloaf or the Cylons balanced? 

    The answer to all of the above (particularly the Dad from Good Times), is no.

    Don't balance abilities, balance play-time, effort and input.  I have no problems with a mage-type destroying a warrior-type, or vice versa.  Make it fit your game mechanics/lore/feel, and stick with it.  General happiness ensues (although we are talking MMOs, so low-intensity forum grumbling, which is the closest thing to happiness, ensues).

    If you don't want everyone playing the over-powered class (be it PvP overpowering or PvE, it doesn't matter), the dev's need to get off their lazy dev-butts and think about it for a change.  T-h-o-u-g-h-t has most of the same letters in it as doughnut, so it shouldn't be a stretch for most of them.  One of the main reasons for class balance/imbalance hate is the lack of forethought, playtesting and early-stage tweaking. 

    WoW had the annoying habit of nerfing the OP class of the week, making it the crappy class for that next month.  Then, they'd reverse it, forgetting to reset all of the other classes that got buffed in response to the original class's supposed OP-ness.  Wash, rinse, repeat.  Most games do, as I feel no particular desire to pick on or single out WoW in this. 

    On a final note, a very large number (I am going to be a percentard and say 65.381%) of class balance issues that make it to forums boil down to the personal preference, minority-complaints and 'grass-is-greener' mentality of their players.

     

  • MumboJumboMumboJumbo LondonPosts: 3,221Member

    If you take TF2 as an example then some classes have "more issues" with other classes and find again others a little easier. So a 1v1 is a case by case with mild bias depending on what context the face off occurs?

    Taking the OP eg Mage vs Warrior

    If the warrior is close to the mage the mage should switch to defense or blocking the warrior and running to a more advantageous situation eg team-mates. Conversely if the mage is up on a high ledge and raining fire down on the warrior they should get their shield/defense up and run for cover or close the distance. Basically they should have options that correspond to finding a solution to the problem they face and that's a different problem depending on different conditions/situations. If you play a weaker armor ranger you know you have to get some cheap hits on the warrior first to take them down otherwise use the "run-away" skill !

  • AxehiltAxehilt San Francisco, CAPosts: 8,746Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Bazharkhan

    The idea of class balance owes its prickliness (yay imaginary vocabulary/spelling) to the baby-daddy of all RPGs, table-top war gaming.  When Gygax and Co. started out, their onus was on the effect that any class would have on a game that lives and breathes utter balance ad nauseum.  For me, RPGs do not have to reflect balance as a mirror-effect... i.e. every class does not and should not need to be utterly equal to the others.  Can anyone argue that Gandalf's class was balanced?  That Emperor Palpatine's was balanced? Was Drizzt *apologies*, Fafhrd, Beowulf, Cu Chulainn, Hercules, The Dad from Good Times, Mike Tyson, Meatloaf or the Cylons balanced? 

    The answer to all of the above (particularly the Dad from Good Times), is no. 

    You're wrong in two ways.

    1. You cite non-interactive media.  When viewers don't interact, balance doesn't matter.  When interaction exists, it should matter -- without balance, it won't matter.

    2. Virtually all the characters you cited were defeated, and therefore balanced against the skill/capabilities of the "good guys".

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  • AxehiltAxehilt San Francisco, CAPosts: 8,746Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by MumboJumbo

    If you take TF2 as an example then some classes have "more issues" with other classes and find again others a little easier. So a 1v1 is a case by case with mild bias depending on what context the face off occurs?

    Taking the OP eg Mage vs Warrior

    If the warrior is close to the mage the mage should switch to defense or blocking the warrior and running to a more advantageous situation eg team-mates. Conversely if the mage is up on a high ledge and raining fire down on the warrior they should get their shield/defense up and run for cover or close the distance. Basically they should have options that correspond to finding a solution to the problem they face and that's a different problem depending on different conditions/situations. If you play a weaker armor ranger you know you have to get some cheap hits on the warrior first to take them down otherwise use the "run-away" skill !

    That's definitely the ideal way for class balance to be implemented, where each class has options for adapting to the others.

    Which is important because the distinction between TF2 and MMORPG classes is that TF2 classes can be changed every death (turning class choice into a mid-match skillful decision to be made) whereas MMORPG classes are set in stone at character creation.

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  • zephermarkuszephermarkus qunatico, MDPosts: 201Member

    Originally posted by JB47394

    Originally posted by Swollen_Beef

    Should a cloth wearing healing class be afforded the same chance to beat a chain wearing DPS class?

    Or should a developer flat out refuse to allow the everyone can beat everyone mentality?

    If the game allows only one combat role per character, then the developer would be wise to allow any character to beat any other.  If the game allows characters to change combat role with a change of gear, then the game can easily say that one role easily defeats another in direct combat.

    World of Warcraft is class-based and allows essentially one combat role per character - its class.  EVE Online is gear-based and allows change of combat role by change of ship.

    Developers should out right refuse to do this look what it did to wow the game hasnt been good since patch 1.12.

    It's this kinda of mentality by the above poster that has ruined pvp games just because u pick a class and pay for a game doesnt mean the developer has to make your class beat everything because u decide u dont want to group up which defeats the purpose of u playing a mmorpg.

    No not every class should be able to kill every class that is  so stupid and the reason i quit wow after bc came out. Dark age of camelot had balance perferct until the solo/casual players starting comin and don't know what teamwork is. A mage should be able to kill a heavy armored person without them being able to catch them that is the the point because your heavy armor is for taking the arrows and the melee and your rogues are for killing the mages and your rangers are for killing rogues and healers. Pvp should be paper rock scissors and never paper can kill rock and all the others because your to lazy to make a friend or be social which is the whole point of an mmo. Most of the people that complain about imbalance are the peole that solo and the mmorpg means massive not smorpg.

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