The problem with FPSs is that they're too easy once you've installed an aimbot.
The problem with books is that when you start by reading the last chapter, you ruin the ending.
The problem with adventure games is you can look online and find out the answers to all the problems, making the game trivial.
The problem with exercising by jogging is that you don't lose weight when you drive your car to the end instead.
The SOLUTION to all these problems, is don't do things the easy way then complain that you don't see the point. :T
Heh, think of the fun when you create an FPS with phantoms that will trigger every aimbot ( by using the same standard player model and skin, but for example floating above the ground so you know it's a phantom while the aimbot doesn't ).
A book that ends in the second last chapter and the last chapter is just a random chapter from a totally diffirent book.
An adventure game that will actively use google to find out what solutions are posted on the internet and then generate diffirent solutions that aren't those posted.
A jogging track that ends in a junk car disposal.
We are the bunny. Resistance is futile. ''/\/\'''''/\/\''''''/\/\ ( o.o) ( o.o) ( o.o) (")("),,(")("),(")(")
With the hidden dynamic events that ArenaNet has placed, I'm wondering if people will say to a group, "Let's go exploring" so they can find the hidden events and such. I think this may replace "Let's go questing."
The whole questing bit was replaced with DE's as a whole right?
Anyway, exploring content is really, really great but sadly always finite and prone to be an easy victim of evil people writing guides and walkthroughs which you need to avoid at all costs if you want the exploring fun to last for a long time. Goes for any game with exploring content of course.
The key to lasting exploring fun in my eyes, (and to have anything more than just 'token exploring', mainly used as another means of marketing a game and adding the minimum of extra 'depth' to an area), is having a shit ton of exploring content, so much that even the prospect of going through it with a walkthrough looks like a huge and daunting task.
This also means investing A LOT of hours into content which you can't be specific about as a developer. It's supposed to be secrut. Making such a developing bet would earn my eternal praise but it isn't such a likely investment.
So if the announced exploring will end up being a pillar of the game in GW2 (as well as in Swtor) remains to be seen. We can be hopeful though.
How could walkthroughs ever affect an evolving world like in GW2?
Evolving world?
You surely mean evolving individual events?
Those aren't hard to describe in a walkthrough once you got their locations, prerequisites and states figured out. I remember WAR had that kind of content: light torches hidden all over the world in the right order and bosses will spawn somewhere else. People got that figured out in the first months. Don't underestimate the devious cunning of a gaming community. ^_^
Surely you can't know that cause dynamic events. are not quests. You certainly make it sound easy tho "prerequisites and states figured out"...
Derp. A simple example:
State A: monsters invade village and set up camp, (prerequisite: an hour passed since last state D completion).
State B: monsters are chased out of the village and take over water mill (prerequisite: mini boss X killed by players in village)
State C: dragon lands infront of mill for final battle (prerequisite: players torch mill)
State players get rewarded, villagers return to village, miller returns to mill and curses players (prerequisite: dragon is slain by players)
This is inacurrate and not indicative of how DE work. Presumably, the majoirty of DEs are chained with one affecting another and in no way is what you gave a valid example.
With the hidden dynamic events that ArenaNet has placed, I'm wondering if people will say to a group, "Let's go exploring" so they can find the hidden events and such. I think this may replace "Let's go questing."
The whole questing bit was replaced with DE's as a whole right?
Anyway, exploring content is really, really great but sadly always finite and prone to be an easy victim of evil people writing guides and walkthroughs which you need to avoid at all costs if you want the exploring fun to last for a long time. Goes for any game with exploring content of course.
The key to lasting exploring fun in my eyes, (and to have anything more than just 'token exploring', mainly used as another means of marketing a game and adding the minimum of extra 'depth' to an area), is having a shit ton of exploring content, so much that even the prospect of going through it with a walkthrough looks like a huge and daunting task.
This also means investing A LOT of hours into content which you can't be specific about as a developer. It's supposed to be secrut. Making such a developing bet would earn my eternal praise but it isn't such a likely investment.
So if the announced exploring will end up being a pillar of the game in GW2 (as well as in Swtor) remains to be seen. We can be hopeful though.
How could walkthroughs ever affect an evolving world like in GW2?
Evolving world?
You surely mean evolving individual events?
Those aren't hard to describe in a walkthrough once you got their locations, prerequisites and states figured out. I remember WAR had that kind of content: light torches hidden all over the world in the right order and bosses will spawn somewhere else. People got that figured out in the first months. Don't underestimate the devious cunning of a gaming community. ^_^
Surely you can't know that cause dynamic events. are not quests. You certainly make it sound easy tho "prerequisites and states figured out"...
Derp. A simple example:
State A: monsters invade village and set up camp, (prerequisite: an hour passed since last state D completion).
State B: monsters are chased out of the village and take over water mill (prerequisite: mini boss X killed by players in village)
State C: dragon lands infront of mill for final battle (prerequisite: players torch mill)
State players get rewarded, villagers return to village, miller returns to mill and curses players (prerequisite: dragon is slain by players)
This is inacurrate and not indicative of how DE work. Presumably, the majoirty of DEs are chained with one affecting another and in no way is what you gave a valid example.
Just add some more prerequisites and states? Thinking that you can not describe or write a walkthrough for DE's is .. kind of naive, (and that is understating it quite a bit). But I understand that arguing with you about this might be pointless. Let's just wait and see what happens after launch.
This is inacurrate and not indicative of how DE work. Presumably, the majoirty of DEs are chained with one affecting another and in no way is what you gave a valid example.
GW2 is a game. A game is a piece of software. A piece of software functions by doing certain things when certain conditions are met.
Events will start and end when certain conditions ( AKA prerequisites ) are met. Most players won't care about these conditions. Some players will care but find out that there's simply way too many conditions for them to follow and will give up and just play the game. Some players will start mapping out all these conditions and post them on the web. Most players won't read these unless they get stuck. Some players will always read them. Some players will never read them.
What he gave is a perfectly valid, although simplified ( hence: simple example ), example of how dynamic events will work.
And it's probably the best MMOs can do with our current level of knowledge and technology. But you shouldn't be under any illusions that it's somehow truly dynamic and emergent when compared to real life. It doesn't have to be, it's just a game.
We are the bunny. Resistance is futile. ''/\/\'''''/\/\''''''/\/\ ( o.o) ( o.o) ( o.o) (")("),,(")("),(")(")
Yes, let's! First waypoint from the right and staright on till morning!
My usual flippant nature aside, I truly hope that this is the case, because I'm more than a little tired of sign-posting and restricted movement in MMOs, even WoW I find incredibly restrictive compared to, say, the first PC Gothic game. Exploration used to be awesome, we did it a lot in games of yore, does anyone remember Ecco the Dolphin or Giants: Citizen Kabuto (in the case of the latter, there were giant maps that allowed you to approach missions in different ways, and even had secrets in them)?
I would be quite happy if I could just go exploring and receive rewards from it. Stuff people had never seen before, new dynamic events, and just generally the fun of the adventurer. They made one post where they explained about jumping on pillar stumps to reach a hidden cave entrance behind some vines, only to drop down into a cave network that was used by some pirates, still occuied by their ghsots. If they had a variety of locations like that then all the better.
Even better if they have traps. For example, an old ruins filled with Indiana Jones tropes. I'd be tickled pink if there were such a thing in Guild Wars 2. That'd be fantastic. I'm not holding my breath for that, but it would be grand. Overall though, I think there will be a lot there for us explorer types. Yes indeed.
This is inacurrate and not indicative of how DE work. Presumably, the majoirty of DEs are chained with one affecting another and in no way is what you gave a valid example.
GW2 is a game. A game is a piece of software. A piece of software functions by doing certain things when certain conditions are met.
Events will start and end when certain conditions ( AKA prerequisites ) are met. Most players won't care about these conditions. Some players will care but find out that there's simply way too many conditions for them to follow and will give up and just play the game. Some players will start mapping out all these conditions and post them on the web. Most players won't read these unless they get stuck. Some players will always read them. Some players will never read them.
What he gave is a perfectly valid, although simplified ( hence: simple example ), example of how dynamic events will work.
And it's probably the best MMOs can do with our current level of knowledge and technology. But you shouldn't be under any illusions that it's somehow truly dynamic and emergent when compared to real life. It doesn't have to be, it's just a game.
Gobla basically sumed it up best. It's just a game and the game will attract different sorts of people. Like those that will map out every DE and put them in a wiki for all to see and those that just want to have fun and explore to their heart's content. All matters is that Arenanet supports the latter, with a variety of hard to find DEs and unpredictable content. It's also good to note that Arenanet plan on adding DEs via free content updates, so the explorers will always find reasons to explore and that's what this thread was originally about.
This is inacurrate and not indicative of how DE work. Presumably, the majoirty of DEs are chained with one affecting another and in no way is what you gave a valid example.
GW2 is a game. A game is a piece of software. A piece of software functions by doing certain things when certain conditions are met.
Events will start and end when certain conditions ( AKA prerequisites ) are met. Most players won't care about these conditions. Some players will care but find out that there's simply way too many conditions for them to follow and will give up and just play the game. Some players will start mapping out all these conditions and post them on the web. Most players won't read these unless they get stuck. Some players will always read them. Some players will never read them.
What he gave is a perfectly valid, although simplified ( hence: simple example ), example of how dynamic events will work.
And it's probably the best MMOs can do with our current level of knowledge and technology. But you shouldn't be under any illusions that it's somehow truly dynamic and emergent when compared to real life. It doesn't have to be, it's just a game.
I never argued about that nor did I say that the game has some sort of AI of its own. I simply said that everything being written on paper and on top of that destroying the exploration is a premature guess at best.
Gobla basically sumed it up best. It's just a game and the game will attract different sorts of people. Like those that will map out every DE and put them in a wiki for all to see and those that just want to have fun and explore to their heart's content. All matters is that Arenanet supports the latter, with a variety of hard to find DEs and unpredictable content. It's also good to note that Arenanet plan on adding DEs via free content updates, so the explorers will always find reasons to explore and that's what this thread was originally about.
Exactly.
Besides, putting the Dynamic Events into a wiki is like making a map of a city. Maps are great and usefull. You'll know exactly where to go and won't take any wrong turns. Map-making itself can be great fun to do, nothing wrong with maps. I love maps.
But just like looking at a map of Berlin doesn't give you any clue as to what Berlin is really like so will looking at a DE wiki give you any idea what it's like to actually experience a DE.
"Big Dragon lands and fights players" is no comparison to this which in turn is no comparison to actually doing it yourself.
And in the end, the best way to experience a city is sometimes to just wander around in it. Just like I'm sure that the best way to experience GW2 will be to sometimes just wander around in it.
Originally posted by chikso
I never argued about that nor did I say that the game has some sort of AI of its own. I simply said that everything being written on paper is a premature guess at best.
It's not a premature guess. I can gaurantee you that it will all be written down on paper. It is in fact already written down on paper. Do you honestly believe that ANet is just winging it? They've got charts and graphs and tables and who knows what explaining exactly in precise detail how all the DEs will work. Those players that want to and put the effort in will be able to approximate these within a few months after release.
Does it matter? No, but it will still happen. There will be a gw2.wikia.com where everything is detailed. Just like there's a wikia for just about everything else. I'm sure you could even find a wikia detailing how exactly you should artificially inseminate wild rabid tigers.
We are the bunny. Resistance is futile. ''/\/\'''''/\/\''''''/\/\ ( o.o) ( o.o) ( o.o) (")("),,(")("),(")(")
Besides, putting the Dynamic Events into a wiki is like making a map of a city. Maps are great and usefull. You'll know exactly where to go and won't take any wrong turns. Map-making itself can be great fun to do, nothing wrong with maps. I love maps.
But just like looking at a map of Berlin doesn't give you any clue as to what Berlin is really like so will looking at a DE wiki give you any idea what it's like to actually experience a DE.
"Big Dragon lands and fights players" is no comparison to this which in turn is no comparison to actually doing it yourself.
And in the end, the best way to experience a city is sometimes to just wander around in it. Just like I'm sure that the best way to experience GW2 will be to sometimes just wander around in it.
I'm pretty sure that is the best way to put it concerning wikis. Usefull to a degree, but they don't give the whole picture.
With the hidden dynamic events that ArenaNet has placed, I'm wondering if people will say to a group, "Let's go exploring" so they can find the hidden events and such. I think this may replace "Let's go questing."
The whole questing bit was replaced with DE's as a whole right?
Anyway, exploring content is really, really great but sadly always finite and prone to be an easy victim of evil people writing guides and walkthroughs which you need to avoid at all costs if you want the exploring fun to last for a long time. Goes for any game with exploring content of course.
The key to lasting exploring fun in my eyes, (and to have anything more than just 'token exploring', mainly used as another means of marketing a game and adding the minimum of extra 'depth' to an area), is having a shit ton of exploring content, so much that even the prospect of going through it with a walkthrough looks like a huge and daunting task.
This also means investing A LOT of hours into content which you can't be specific about as a developer. It's supposed to be secrut. Making such a developing bet would earn my eternal praise but it isn't such a likely investment.
So if the announced exploring will end up being a pillar of the game in GW2 (as well as in Swtor) remains to be seen. We can be hopeful though.
How could walkthroughs ever affect an evolving world like in GW2?
Evolving world?
You surely mean evolving individual events?
Those aren't hard to describe in a walkthrough once you got their locations, prerequisites and states figured out. I remember WAR had that kind of content: light torches hidden all over the world in the right order and bosses will spawn somewhere else. People got that figured out in the first months. Don't underestimate the devious cunning of a gaming community. ^_^
From what i uderstood you are wrong here, its not how they are set up in GW2. A Dynamic event is trigered in this town, you fight centaure, you loose, centaure burn the place, the town is now a ghost town, end of story. From my understanding you will never be able to shop in that town anymore and see the npc fool around or whatever since they will be dead for good, it is mean to change the world and move on. At least thats how i understood it.
I think they gave few exemple of this i remember very well an exemple where in an event the resource node (fish) will get emptied by an event, and they clearly said you will not be able to buy fish at the food store anymore because of the event.
So you won't be able to check your fan page to find the best xp rewards.
From what i uderstood you are wrong here, its not how they are set up in GW2. A Dynamic event is trigered in this town, you fight centaure, you loose, centaure burn the place, the town is now a ghost town, end of story. From my understanding you will never be able to shop in that town anymore and see the npc fool around or whatever since they will be dead for good, it is mean to change the world and move on. At least thats how i understood it.
I think they gave few exemple of this i remember very well an exemple where in an event the resource node (fish) will get emptied by an event, and they clearly said you will not be able to buy fish at the food store anymore because of the event.
So you won't be able to check your fan page to find the best xp rewards.
I don't think that's how it works.....
Centaurs destroy the town will trigger another event to, eventually, rebuild the town. Once the town is rebuild the NPCs will return and there will be peace for a time until another condition is reached and the centaurs attack again.
There may be a chain of 20+ events surrounding this where you first have to kill the centaur chieftain, then protect villagers as they gather supplies for the rebuilding, then go somewhere to save the kidnapped town's mayor, then fight bandits to retrieve the supplies they stole while you rescued the mayor, then protect the villagers while they build the outer wall, then destroy the centaur siege engines that just showed up etc.
Because of the length of these event chains and them sometimes requiring certain hard to predict conditions you'll never know what you're going to find when you arrive in an area. But if you stay in an area long enough you will see events start looping and the same things happening again. Not sure why'd you want to stay in an area that long though without going to see the rest of the world.
We are the bunny. Resistance is futile. ''/\/\'''''/\/\''''''/\/\ ( o.o) ( o.o) ( o.o) (")("),,(")("),(")(")
With the hidden dynamic events that ArenaNet has placed, I'm wondering if people will say to a group, "Let's go exploring" so they can find the hidden events and such. I think this may replace "Let's go questing."
The whole questing bit was replaced with DE's as a whole right?
Anyway, exploring content is really, really great but sadly always finite and prone to be an easy victim of evil people writing guides and walkthroughs which you need to avoid at all costs if you want the exploring fun to last for a long time. Goes for any game with exploring content of course.
The key to lasting exploring fun in my eyes, (and to have anything more than just 'token exploring', mainly used as another means of marketing a game and adding the minimum of extra 'depth' to an area), is having a shit ton of exploring content, so much that even the prospect of going through it with a walkthrough looks like a huge and daunting task.
This also means investing A LOT of hours into content which you can't be specific about as a developer. It's supposed to be secrut. Making such a developing bet would earn my eternal praise but it isn't such a likely investment.
So if the announced exploring will end up being a pillar of the game in GW2 (as well as in Swtor) remains to be seen. We can be hopeful though.
How could walkthroughs ever affect an evolving world like in GW2?
Evolving world?
You surely mean evolving individual events?
Those aren't hard to describe in a walkthrough once you got their locations, prerequisites and states figured out. I remember WAR had that kind of content: light torches hidden all over the world in the right order and bosses will spawn somewhere else. People got that figured out in the first months. Don't underestimate the devious cunning of a gaming community. ^_^
Surely you can't know that cause dynamic events. are not quests. You certainly make it sound easy tho "prerequisites and states figured out"...
Derp. A simple example:
State A: monsters invade village and set up camp, (prerequisite: an hour passed since last state D completion).
State B: monsters are chased out of the village and take over water mill (prerequisite: mini boss X killed by players in village)
State C: dragon lands infront of mill for final battle (prerequisite: players torch mill)
State players get rewarded, villagers return to village, miller returns to mill and curses players (prerequisite: dragon is slain by players)
This is inacurrate and not indicative of how DE work. Presumably, the majoirty of DEs are chained with one affecting another and in no way is what you gave a valid example.
Just add some more prerequisites and states? Thinking that you can not describe or write a walkthrough for DE's is .. kind of naive, (and that is understating it quite a bit). But I understand that arguing with you about this might be pointless. Let's just wait and see what happens after launch.
Yeah, there will be ppl who will write guides that describe the exact prerequisites and states needed for a certain event to trigger. But that doesnt mean you can make that happen on your own. This might depend on what other players chose to do also. Maybe other players trigger some other event that prevents your event from happening. Or just because of the amount of players who are there, the event will become a lot more difficult and you wont succeed because too many players make mistakes (cant make other players play better just like that ).
This is the difference with static events in other games that cycle continuesly.
From what i uderstood you are wrong here, its not how they are set up in GW2. A Dynamic event is trigered in this town, you fight centaure, you loose, centaure burn the place, the town is now a ghost town, end of story. From my understanding you will never be able to shop in that town anymore and see the npc fool around or whatever since they will be dead for good, it is mean to change the world and move on. At least thats how i understood it.
I think they gave few exemple of this i remember very well an exemple where in an event the resource node (fish) will get emptied by an event, and they clearly said you will not be able to buy fish at the food store anymore because of the event.
So you won't be able to check your fan page to find the best xp rewards.
I don't think that's how it works.....
Centaurs destroy the town will trigger another event to, eventually, rebuild the town. Once the town is rebuild the NPCs will return and there will be peace for a time until another condition is reached and the centaurs attack again.
There may be a chain of 20+ events surrounding this where you first have to kill the centaur chieftain, then protect villagers as they gather supplies for the rebuilding, then go somewhere to save the kidnapped town's mayor, then fight bandits to retrieve the supplies they stole while you rescued the mayor, then protect the villagers while they build the outer wall, then destroy the centaur siege engines that just showed up etc.
Because of the length of these event chains and them sometimes requiring certain hard to predict conditions you'll never know what you're going to find when you arrive in an area. But if you stay in an area long enough you will see events start looping and the same things happening again. Not sure why'd you want to stay in an area that long though without going to see the rest of the world.
Ye sure i don't know how they set up their event chain, did they put some loop somewhere, it is very possible and would be logical to not waste all their work on single triger event. But it is not like you will be able to go in that town everyday to fight the centaure and rebuild the town few hours later, at least that's what they seam to say. Also i think they talked about a ridiculous amount of event to substain the richness of the evolving world idea, sometime number mean nothing, i just hope it does in this case.
It will also i beleive depend on the success of the game and how much resource they will be able to develop it after launch, but i guess they put in place a rather thick cushion to the all event chain system.
Just an edit to say that my guess is that they are some main chain that wont loop, and some side chain that will loop often, at least thats how i would design it if i was in charge.
I still remember my exploration days from EQ and DAoC...
Ther where not a lot of quests in these games and people just wandered off intoo the game... to discover what things where hidden behind the next corner... Quests didn't feel necessary at all, espescially in EQ. When finding a new area, people carefully explored it to asset the dangers and possibilities... how did the mobs behave and what kind of patrolls are in the area.
The fact of exploration combined with a system that punished mistakes made exploration in EQ for me very thrilling...
Tough i love the fact that there will be a lot of exploring in GW2, i don't expect to get the same thrill from it as in EQ... Because it is much less dangerous...
But i do think emersive at the same time..... I really hope that the AI of the mobs will be better then what we know, i hope that certain mobs will group up and when powerfull enough( because the PC let them get so powerfull) they will start hunting down the PC's all over the map(trains), somehow they need to make sure that PC's have a reason to run when they are outnumbered... a reason to really want to survive such an encounter...
Anyway..... my point about good exploration is that it requires superb mob AI.....
Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)
There's no point in reading a wiki of DEs when all DEs give the same rewards - Karma and XP. If you read a wiki about a DE, it isn't going to reward you with anything more than a quicker path to finding the DE and enjoying its particular content.
Traditional Quest rewards meant a wiki was essential, because you can browse rewards and go do the content, wether you enjoyed it or not.
With DEs, you only do the content you enjoy, because the reward is the same. You could probaly level you character more easily and just as effectively by grinding the same DE a thousand times, in each level band.
A wiki in GW2 will be like a book review - giving an outline of the conntent and where to get it. You then go enjoy the story and content, having no different reward than the plebs grinding the "kill 12,000 rats" DE. If the wiki is too good, then there's no point in doing the DE, because the only reward is the enjoyment of its unique content: Who would read a 100 page review of a 100 page book before deciding to enjoy it?
"Gamers will no longer buy the argument that every MMO requires a subscription fee to offset server and bandwidth costs. It's not true you know it, and they know it." Jeff Strain, co-founder of ArenaNet, 2007
With the hidden dynamic events that ArenaNet has placed, I'm wondering if people will say to a group, "Let's go exploring" so they can find the hidden events and such. I think this may replace "Let's go questing."
The whole questing bit was replaced with DE's as a whole right?
Anyway, exploring content is really, really great but sadly always finite and prone to be an easy victim of evil people writing guides and walkthroughs which you need to avoid at all costs if you want the exploring fun to last for a long time. Goes for any game with exploring content of course.
The key to lasting exploring fun in my eyes, (and to have anything more than just 'token exploring', mainly used as another means of marketing a game and adding the minimum of extra 'depth' to an area), is having a shit ton of exploring content, so much that even the prospect of going through it with a walkthrough looks like a huge and daunting task.
This also means investing A LOT of hours into content which you can't be specific about as a developer. It's supposed to be secrut. Making such a developing bet would earn my eternal praise but it isn't such a likely investment.
So if the announced exploring will end up being a pillar of the game in GW2 (as well as in Swtor) remains to be seen. We can be hopeful though.
Hmm, i thought this at past when i was playing a nwn1 multiplayer mod d&d narc's blood. Basically the key to enjoy fully adventuring and exploring is to create Random dynamic events that spawn in random locations so there would be no guides and walkthroughts. In that mod also evry mob in the world map was appearing suddenly as encounter ( there were no visible mobs in the world to kill) Evry single mob u fought appeared suddenly by insta spawning when u were passing by areas in the wilds.Also the encounters were randoms u could fight form 1 -3 goblins on an encounter ot various mixes 1 halforc+1 goblin or minotaurs or centaurs,skeletons etc etc.
Hmm i always wondered why big mmorpg's dont walk the random events path..Maybe the after all they profit from the guides and walktrhoughs ?
Hmm, i thought this at past when i was playing a nwn1 multiplayer mod d&d narc's blood. Basically the key to enjoy fully adventuring and exploring is to create Random dynamic events that spawn in random locations so there would be no guides and walkthroughts. In that mod also evry mob in the world map was appearing suddenly as encounter ( there were no visible mobs in the world to kill) Evry single mob u fought appeared suddenly by insta spawning when u were passing by areas in the wilds.Also the encounters were randoms u could fight form 1 -3 goblins on an encounter ot various mixes 1 halforc+1 goblin or minotaurs or centaurs,skeletons etc etc.
Hmm i always wondered why big mmorpg's dont walk the random events path..Maybe the after all they profit from the guides and walktrhoughs ?
I'm not sure if you've realized this but there's an MMO that does this whole random mob spawner thing. It's fairly new so you may not have heard about it. It's called Rift.
There problem is that it doesn't do much to promote exploration since players are all like: "Oh look another Rift. I best go close it/avoid it, before I can hand in these quest." Guild Wars 2's events are in their nature, more geared towards exploration, since you don't have a bunch of questing to worry about. So you're just exploring the world, looking for DEs. Also if GW2 went the route you are hoping for, with nothing but random event spawners; then the game would be nothing but a grind, where you kill mobs for no real purpose. At least in GW2's DEs I can find & participate in scripted puzzle events, to break the monotony of all the killing.
I'm not sure if you've realized this but there's an MMO that does this whole random mob spawner thing. It's fairly new so you may not have heard about it. It's called Rift.
There is nothing really random about Rift, the Rifts pop in the same place and on a very regular basis. There really is nothing different about Rift and Public Quests from WAR. Dynamic Events will be better than either of them I'd assume though.
Asheron's Call had random mob spawns if you want an example of that kind of thing.
There's no point in reading a wiki of DEs when all DEs give the same rewards - Karma and XP. If you read a wiki about a DE, it isn't going to reward you with anything more than a quicker path to finding the DE and enjoying its particular content.
A wiki would tell you what other DE's spawn off of a given DE, they will still be able to spoil the content if you choose to use them. I also doubt they really all give the same reward. They showed an example of opening up a pirate island with a boss pirate, I'd assume he has more of a chance to drop loot or is worth more karma etc. They most likely escalate the rewards somewhat for later events in a DE chain. Also only certain points in a chain open up vendors and I have to assume not every vendor has the same reward options to buy.
It's soulds like exploration system, it actually a quest system lol, but they will make it more attractive by naming it in different ways.
Would you consider say, the content of Fallout: New Vegas as your default MMORPG 'quest system'? What they're trying sounds closer to the dynamism of single-player games rather than traditional MMORPGs.
Hmm, i thought this at past when i was playing a nwn1 multiplayer mod d&d narc's blood. Basically the key to enjoy fully adventuring and exploring is to create Random dynamic events that spawn in random locations so there would be no guides and walkthroughts. In that mod also evry mob in the world map was appearing suddenly as encounter ( there were no visible mobs in the world to kill) Evry single mob u fought appeared suddenly by insta spawning when u were passing by areas in the wilds.Also the encounters were randoms u could fight form 1 -3 goblins on an encounter ot various mixes 1 halforc+1 goblin or minotaurs or centaurs,skeletons etc etc.
Hmm i always wondered why big mmorpg's dont walk the random events path..Maybe the after all they profit from the guides and walktrhoughs ?
I'm not sure if you've realized this but there's an MMO that does this whole random mob spawner thing. It's fairly new so you may not have heard about it. It's called Rift.
There problem is that it doesn't do much to promote exploration since players are all like: "Oh look another Rift. I best go close it/avoid it, before I can hand in these quest." Guild Wars 2's events are in their nature, more geared towards exploration, since you don't have a bunch of questing to worry about. So you're just exploring the world, looking for DEs. Also if GW2 went the route you are hoping for, with nothing but random event spawners; then the game would be nothing but a grind, where you kill mobs for no real purpose. At least in GW2's DEs I can find & participate in scripted puzzle events, to break the monotony of all the killing.
I think this is almost correct....
But you are allways on one big quest..... that makes you travel all over the world (your personal story quest) en exploring the stories and events to be found....
The only thing that worries me..... what will happen at max level? your personal storyline will be over.... I am just hoping that new stories and adventures of the same level as your personal story line will open up at maximum level....
Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)
The only thing that worries me..... what will happen at max level? your personal storyline will be over.... I am just hoping that new stories and adventures of the same level as your personal story line will open up at maximum level....
Hopefully they will do what they did with GW1 here as well. Sure level cap is no longer 20, but they could still have a lot of stuff open up after you get to 80. Plus with the scaling that happens you could go to any area and do DEs that you haven't seen.
We will all just have to wait and see, but I have faith in Anet because they have earned it.
Exploring and random events sounds great to me, especially after the painful questing system I endured in Rift beta.
"Censorship is never over for those who have experienced it. It is a brand on the imagination that affects the individual who has suffered it, forever." - Noam Chomsky
My personal opinion is a wiki listing out all of the Dynamic events in an area with a graph will be as useful as this. Let’s look at the facts; Dynamic events are not like Warhammer online PQs, they are not static in one spot and just repeat the same 4 events over and over again, which made a wiki for PQs useful. Dynamic events can have effects that chain across whole zones, so the graph would look like a huge if-then statement, without no way of knowing what is actually happening without being in the game.
Let’s look for example at the player made event from last year’s PAX west, in that video they talk about 7 events that all chain together to impact the Guaggan event and this in a mid-level area. So as an example let’s say a high level area could have 13 Dynamic events with 10 parts to each chain that can affect each other in different ways. So you would first have to list out the 13 DE with the 10 possible chaining events (for 130 events) then you would have to have a graph that showed how all of this interacts with each other. Then of course on the bottom a disclaimer saying that ANet will patch in DEs into the game so this listing is not 100% accurate, and there is no way of knowing what is happening in the zone without going there (So if you see a DE you want to try you might have to wait around for a long time to get it or actually just play the game).
Then if you factor in the fact that they said all Dynamic Events will have the same Karma, Gold, and XP reward, because they do not want people to force others to lose to get to a good reward. The will to win that all humans have will be the reason to win in a DE not the loot or item you get. In fact the only thing we know that are tied to DEs that are close to itemloot are karma vendors and all of the ones ANet has shown and talked about only sell consumables not equipment. So as long as ANet follows the same philosophy as they did in GW1 consumables will not be a must have for PVE ,and all of the ones I can think of in GW1 were not allowed in PVP. So that makes Karma vendors useful but not a must have for people to be competitive.
Then the last part to bring up for DEs is the loot chest they have shown for killing the elder dragon lieutenant the Shatterer (off of this I think it is safe to assume all of the ED lieutenants will have loot chests that are tied to them). Now ANet has said that the event was speed up in the demo that the battle with the Shatterer will not be an hourly occurrence. I am not sure if that means it will be daily or what, I guess we will have to wait to find out when the game launches. So with that in mind I would say this would really be the only Dynamic Event chain worth listing out for people that want to look at it. Since we will have to do all the perquisites to get the Shatterer to show up it would be useful to know what those are and to know what loot you can get from the chest. But that still is only 1 event out of the 1500 that we know of with a chest, honestly we do not know how many ED lieutenants will be in the game at launch. But for the rest of the Dynamic Events why will it matter when you get the same Karma, Gold, and XP.
But for everyone that thinks this is still a great idea like a Map, I say let’s do a real life dynamic event map and see how useful it is. I want you to go out and buy a ticket to New York for 6 months from now. I will make a map of New York with 100 points of interest, but these points of interest will be like a DE. I will not only list what is at that spot right now but I will list every building that has been there for the last 100 years plus everything I think could be there for the next 100 years. So the list for a spot could include anything from an ice skating ring to a night club, although when you get there it might just be a strip-mall. So just like a DE in GW2 you will not know what is actually there until you travel to the spot. Also since sites like WoWhead make money of advertisement we are going to represent that will a $300 charge for my map. So how does that sound? Does a real life dynamic Event map sound like it would be worth using?
Like I said at the start it is just my personal opinion about a wiki with all 1500 DEs listed is a waste. To me anyone that waste days, weeks, or months of their life creating one will need to be nominated for a Darwin award. And if the universe is kind their kids will be smarter than they are or they are doomed.
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Heh, think of the fun when you create an FPS with phantoms that will trigger every aimbot ( by using the same standard player model and skin, but for example floating above the ground so you know it's a phantom while the aimbot doesn't ).
A book that ends in the second last chapter and the last chapter is just a random chapter from a totally diffirent book.
An adventure game that will actively use google to find out what solutions are posted on the internet and then generate diffirent solutions that aren't those posted.
A jogging track that ends in a junk car disposal.
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This is inacurrate and not indicative of how DE work. Presumably, the majoirty of DEs are chained with one affecting another and in no way is what you gave a valid example.
Just add some more prerequisites and states? Thinking that you can not describe or write a walkthrough for DE's is .. kind of naive, (and that is understating it quite a bit). But I understand that arguing with you about this might be pointless. Let's just wait and see what happens after launch.
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GW2 is a game. A game is a piece of software. A piece of software functions by doing certain things when certain conditions are met.
Events will start and end when certain conditions ( AKA prerequisites ) are met. Most players won't care about these conditions. Some players will care but find out that there's simply way too many conditions for them to follow and will give up and just play the game. Some players will start mapping out all these conditions and post them on the web. Most players won't read these unless they get stuck. Some players will always read them. Some players will never read them.
What he gave is a perfectly valid, although simplified ( hence: simple example ), example of how dynamic events will work.
And it's probably the best MMOs can do with our current level of knowledge and technology. But you shouldn't be under any illusions that it's somehow truly dynamic and emergent when compared to real life. It doesn't have to be, it's just a game.
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"Let's go exploring!"
Yes, let's! First waypoint from the right and staright on till morning!
My usual flippant nature aside, I truly hope that this is the case, because I'm more than a little tired of sign-posting and restricted movement in MMOs, even WoW I find incredibly restrictive compared to, say, the first PC Gothic game. Exploration used to be awesome, we did it a lot in games of yore, does anyone remember Ecco the Dolphin or Giants: Citizen Kabuto (in the case of the latter, there were giant maps that allowed you to approach missions in different ways, and even had secrets in them)?
I would be quite happy if I could just go exploring and receive rewards from it. Stuff people had never seen before, new dynamic events, and just generally the fun of the adventurer. They made one post where they explained about jumping on pillar stumps to reach a hidden cave entrance behind some vines, only to drop down into a cave network that was used by some pirates, still occuied by their ghsots. If they had a variety of locations like that then all the better.
Even better if they have traps. For example, an old ruins filled with Indiana Jones tropes. I'd be tickled pink if there were such a thing in Guild Wars 2. That'd be fantastic. I'm not holding my breath for that, but it would be grand. Overall though, I think there will be a lot there for us explorer types. Yes indeed.
Gobla basically sumed it up best. It's just a game and the game will attract different sorts of people. Like those that will map out every DE and put them in a wiki for all to see and those that just want to have fun and explore to their heart's content. All matters is that Arenanet supports the latter, with a variety of hard to find DEs and unpredictable content. It's also good to note that Arenanet plan on adding DEs via free content updates, so the explorers will always find reasons to explore and that's what this thread was originally about.
I never argued about that nor did I say that the game has some sort of AI of its own. I simply said that everything being written on paper and on top of that destroying the exploration is a premature guess at best.
Exactly.
Besides, putting the Dynamic Events into a wiki is like making a map of a city. Maps are great and usefull. You'll know exactly where to go and won't take any wrong turns. Map-making itself can be great fun to do, nothing wrong with maps. I love maps.
But just like looking at a map of Berlin doesn't give you any clue as to what Berlin is really like so will looking at a DE wiki give you any idea what it's like to actually experience a DE.
"Big Dragon lands and fights players" is no comparison to this which in turn is no comparison to actually doing it yourself.
And in the end, the best way to experience a city is sometimes to just wander around in it. Just like I'm sure that the best way to experience GW2 will be to sometimes just wander around in it.
It's not a premature guess. I can gaurantee you that it will all be written down on paper. It is in fact already written down on paper. Do you honestly believe that ANet is just winging it? They've got charts and graphs and tables and who knows what explaining exactly in precise detail how all the DEs will work. Those players that want to and put the effort in will be able to approximate these within a few months after release.
Does it matter? No, but it will still happen. There will be a gw2.wikia.com where everything is detailed. Just like there's a wikia for just about everything else. I'm sure you could even find a wikia detailing how exactly you should artificially inseminate wild rabid tigers.
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I'm pretty sure that is the best way to put it concerning wikis. Usefull to a degree, but they don't give the whole picture.
Edit: spelling.
From what i uderstood you are wrong here, its not how they are set up in GW2. A Dynamic event is trigered in this town, you fight centaure, you loose, centaure burn the place, the town is now a ghost town, end of story. From my understanding you will never be able to shop in that town anymore and see the npc fool around or whatever since they will be dead for good, it is mean to change the world and move on. At least thats how i understood it.
I think they gave few exemple of this i remember very well an exemple where in an event the resource node (fish) will get emptied by an event, and they clearly said you will not be able to buy fish at the food store anymore because of the event.
So you won't be able to check your fan page to find the best xp rewards.
I don't think that's how it works.....
Centaurs destroy the town will trigger another event to, eventually, rebuild the town. Once the town is rebuild the NPCs will return and there will be peace for a time until another condition is reached and the centaurs attack again.
There may be a chain of 20+ events surrounding this where you first have to kill the centaur chieftain, then protect villagers as they gather supplies for the rebuilding, then go somewhere to save the kidnapped town's mayor, then fight bandits to retrieve the supplies they stole while you rescued the mayor, then protect the villagers while they build the outer wall, then destroy the centaur siege engines that just showed up etc.
Because of the length of these event chains and them sometimes requiring certain hard to predict conditions you'll never know what you're going to find when you arrive in an area. But if you stay in an area long enough you will see events start looping and the same things happening again. Not sure why'd you want to stay in an area that long though without going to see the rest of the world.
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Resistance is futile.
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Yeah, there will be ppl who will write guides that describe the exact prerequisites and states needed for a certain event to trigger. But that doesnt mean you can make that happen on your own. This might depend on what other players chose to do also. Maybe other players trigger some other event that prevents your event from happening. Or just because of the amount of players who are there, the event will become a lot more difficult and you wont succeed because too many players make mistakes (cant make other players play better just like that
).
This is the difference with static events in other games that cycle continuesly.
Ye sure i don't know how they set up their event chain, did they put some loop somewhere, it is very possible and would be logical to not waste all their work on single triger event. But it is not like you will be able to go in that town everyday to fight the centaure and rebuild the town few hours later, at least that's what they seam to say. Also i think they talked about a ridiculous amount of event to substain the richness of the evolving world idea, sometime number mean nothing, i just hope it does in this case.
It will also i beleive depend on the success of the game and how much resource they will be able to develop it after launch, but i guess they put in place a rather thick cushion to the all event chain system.
Just an edit to say that my guess is that they are some main chain that wont loop, and some side chain that will loop often, at least thats how i would design it if i was in charge.
I still remember my exploration days from EQ and DAoC...
Ther where not a lot of quests in these games and people just wandered off intoo the game... to discover what things where hidden behind the next corner... Quests didn't feel necessary at all, espescially in EQ. When finding a new area, people carefully explored it to asset the dangers and possibilities... how did the mobs behave and what kind of patrolls are in the area.
The fact of exploration combined with a system that punished mistakes made exploration in EQ for me very thrilling...
Tough i love the fact that there will be a lot of exploring in GW2, i don't expect to get the same thrill from it as in EQ... Because it is much less dangerous...
But i do think emersive at the same time..... I really hope that the AI of the mobs will be better then what we know, i hope that certain mobs will group up and when powerfull enough( because the PC let them get so powerfull) they will start hunting down the PC's all over the map(trains), somehow they need to make sure that PC's have a reason to run when they are outnumbered... a reason to really want to survive such an encounter...
Anyway..... my point about good exploration is that it requires superb mob AI.....
Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)
There's no point in reading a wiki of DEs when all DEs give the same rewards - Karma and XP. If you read a wiki about a DE, it isn't going to reward you with anything more than a quicker path to finding the DE and enjoying its particular content.
Traditional Quest rewards meant a wiki was essential, because you can browse rewards and go do the content, wether you enjoyed it or not.
With DEs, you only do the content you enjoy, because the reward is the same. You could probaly level you character more easily and just as effectively by grinding the same DE a thousand times, in each level band.
A wiki in GW2 will be like a book review - giving an outline of the conntent and where to get it. You then go enjoy the story and content, having no different reward than the plebs grinding the "kill 12,000 rats" DE. If the wiki is too good, then there's no point in doing the DE, because the only reward is the enjoyment of its unique content: Who would read a 100 page review of a 100 page book before deciding to enjoy it?
I hope you get my point.
It's soulds like exploration system, it actually a quest system lol, but they will make it more attractive by naming it in different ways.
I hope so. I really hope so.
"Gamers will no longer buy the argument that every MMO requires a subscription fee to offset server and bandwidth costs. It's not true you know it, and they know it." Jeff Strain, co-founder of ArenaNet, 2007
WTF? No subscription fee?
Hmm, i thought this at past when i was playing a nwn1 multiplayer mod d&d narc's blood. Basically the key to enjoy fully adventuring and exploring is to create Random dynamic events that spawn in random locations so there would be no guides and walkthroughts. In that mod also evry mob in the world map was appearing suddenly as encounter ( there were no visible mobs in the world to kill) Evry single mob u fought appeared suddenly by insta spawning when u were passing by areas in the wilds.Also the encounters were randoms u could fight form 1 -3 goblins on an encounter ot various mixes 1 halforc+1 goblin or minotaurs or centaurs,skeletons etc etc.
Hmm i always wondered why big mmorpg's dont walk the random events path..Maybe the after all they profit from the guides and walktrhoughs ?
I'm not sure if you've realized this but there's an MMO that does this whole random mob spawner thing. It's fairly new so you may not have heard about it. It's called Rift.
There problem is that it doesn't do much to promote exploration since players are all like: "Oh look another Rift. I best go close it/avoid it, before I can hand in these quest." Guild Wars 2's events are in their nature, more geared towards exploration, since you don't have a bunch of questing to worry about. So you're just exploring the world, looking for DEs. Also if GW2 went the route you are hoping for, with nothing but random event spawners; then the game would be nothing but a grind, where you kill mobs for no real purpose. At least in GW2's DEs I can find & participate in scripted puzzle events, to break the monotony of all the killing.
A wiki would tell you what other DE's spawn off of a given DE, they will still be able to spoil the content if you choose to use them. I also doubt they really all give the same reward. They showed an example of opening up a pirate island with a boss pirate, I'd assume he has more of a chance to drop loot or is worth more karma etc. They most likely escalate the rewards somewhat for later events in a DE chain. Also only certain points in a chain open up vendors and I have to assume not every vendor has the same reward options to buy.
Would you consider say, the content of Fallout: New Vegas as your default MMORPG 'quest system'? What they're trying sounds closer to the dynamism of single-player games rather than traditional MMORPGs.
I think this is almost correct....
But you are allways on one big quest..... that makes you travel all over the world (your personal story quest) en exploring the stories and events to be found....
The only thing that worries me..... what will happen at max level? your personal storyline will be over.... I am just hoping that new stories and adventures of the same level as your personal story line will open up at maximum level....
Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)
Hopefully they will do what they did with GW1 here as well. Sure level cap is no longer 20, but they could still have a lot of stuff open up after you get to 80. Plus with the scaling that happens you could go to any area and do DEs that you haven't seen.
We will all just have to wait and see, but I have faith in Anet because they have earned it.
Exploring and random events sounds great to me, especially after the painful questing system I endured in Rift beta.
"Censorship is never over for those who have experienced it. It is a brand on the imagination that affects the individual who has suffered it, forever." - Noam Chomsky
My personal opinion is a wiki listing out all of the Dynamic events in an area with a graph will be as useful as this. Let’s look at the facts; Dynamic events are not like Warhammer online PQs, they are not static in one spot and just repeat the same 4 events over and over again, which made a wiki for PQs useful. Dynamic events can have effects that chain across whole zones, so the graph would look like a huge if-then statement, without no way of knowing what is actually happening without being in the game.
Let’s look for example at the player made event from last year’s PAX west, in that video they talk about 7 events that all chain together to impact the Guaggan event and this in a mid-level area. So as an example let’s say a high level area could have 13 Dynamic events with 10 parts to each chain that can affect each other in different ways. So you would first have to list out the 13 DE with the 10 possible chaining events (for 130 events) then you would have to have a graph that showed how all of this interacts with each other. Then of course on the bottom a disclaimer saying that ANet will patch in DEs into the game so this listing is not 100% accurate, and there is no way of knowing what is happening in the zone without going there (So if you see a DE you want to try you might have to wait around for a long time to get it or actually just play the game).
Then if you factor in the fact that they said all Dynamic Events will have the same Karma, Gold, and XP reward, because they do not want people to force others to lose to get to a good reward. The will to win that all humans have will be the reason to win in a DE not the loot or item you get. In fact the only thing we know that are tied to DEs that are close to itemloot are karma vendors and all of the ones ANet has shown and talked about only sell consumables not equipment. So as long as ANet follows the same philosophy as they did in GW1 consumables will not be a must have for PVE ,and all of the ones I can think of in GW1 were not allowed in PVP. So that makes Karma vendors useful but not a must have for people to be competitive.
Then the last part to bring up for DEs is the loot chest they have shown for killing the elder dragon lieutenant the Shatterer (off of this I think it is safe to assume all of the ED lieutenants will have loot chests that are tied to them). Now ANet has said that the event was speed up in the demo that the battle with the Shatterer will not be an hourly occurrence. I am not sure if that means it will be daily or what, I guess we will have to wait to find out when the game launches. So with that in mind I would say this would really be the only Dynamic Event chain worth listing out for people that want to look at it. Since we will have to do all the perquisites to get the Shatterer to show up it would be useful to know what those are and to know what loot you can get from the chest. But that still is only 1 event out of the 1500 that we know of with a chest, honestly we do not know how many ED lieutenants will be in the game at launch. But for the rest of the Dynamic Events why will it matter when you get the same Karma, Gold, and XP.
But for everyone that thinks this is still a great idea like a Map, I say let’s do a real life dynamic event map and see how useful it is. I want you to go out and buy a ticket to New York for 6 months from now. I will make a map of New York with 100 points of interest, but these points of interest will be like a DE. I will not only list what is at that spot right now but I will list every building that has been there for the last 100 years plus everything I think could be there for the next 100 years. So the list for a spot could include anything from an ice skating ring to a night club, although when you get there it might just be a strip-mall. So just like a DE in GW2 you will not know what is actually there until you travel to the spot. Also since sites like WoWhead make money of advertisement we are going to represent that will a $300 charge for my map. So how does that sound? Does a real life dynamic Event map sound like it would be worth using?
Like I said at the start it is just my personal opinion about a wiki with all 1500 DEs listed is a waste. To me anyone that waste days, weeks, or months of their life creating one will need to be nominated for a Darwin award. And if the universe is kind their kids will be smarter than they are or they are doomed.