Couldn't agree more with the OP about SWG's crafting.
Having played and crafted in all the games he listed (besides EVE) as well, I think the main difference between SWG and the others would be not only community interdependence, but the fact that what a crafter made was actually VALUABLE.
I wasted a heck of a lot of time and resources in other games learning to craft, only to find out that players could get better equipment from loot drops. In Pre-CU SWG, not only did equipment degrade (necessitating either repairs from crafters or replacement from crafters), but crafters could make casual wear, better armor and weapons than players could pick up, and necessary (note, necessary) food and drink for fights. What a crafter did really mattered--people actually depended on crafters to be able to play well.
I have not encountered that in any other game I have played. I truly do hope some company out there picks up on that bright idea some day; it was one of the things that made the SWG community the great entity that it was.
SWG has the BEST crafting system EVER! Love it but NGE kicked my ass a few years ago Since then i'm lookimg for a mmo with this type of crafting (Eve or PotBS works fine but is not SWG's craft style).
I never played SWG so i obviously can't say anything about crafting system there. But from other games i played, vanguard does have the best crafting system. Sure Darkfall and EvE have a good system as well, mostly because economy is based on crafting, and poeple can craft virtualy anyting, but when it comes to complexity of crafting, and fun element vanguard wins. You can't produce items just from basic materials, you have to transform materials first, and then make final item. And a lot of things can go wrong, a lot of knowledge is needed just to make a basic item.
Eve crafting is also great, because there can be a lot of people involved in big projects, and there is a lot of thinking and planing and logistics involved in producing items. But basic crafting is still gather materials, and click produce. I would not say it is better or worse from Vanguard crafting, it is just different, and still very engaging and fun.
While Fallen earth is realy dependant from crafting, and producing new items is one of the most important aspect, it is not revolutionary, a lot of grinding is involved, but it is nice that you can make practicly anyting, and that items produced are better than those gained through PvE. Maybe it would be even better, if there would be FFA PvP in the game, and you would drop the items.
I would probably add Anarchy Online to the list, where there is a profession which can practicly specialize in crafting. Good crafters are hard to find and very precious. Though crafting is limited just to "combine materials to get item", there is a lot of skill and know-how involved.
Nice list. I would have trouble picking an order, because it kind of depends on what you find most important. The crafting process, how crafting ties into the player economy, how it has to compete with loot etc. None of the listed games (except SWG maybe) that excells in all those areas.
I wouldnt mind if this was a top 8, with Ryzom added. That game has a robust crafting system too.
No idea why (Pre-NGE) was tagged onto SWG crafting, crafting is still as good, if not better than the CU with all new craftables and a ton of bug fixes. Just log in and try it.
Not a good list, I'm afraid. I'm amused by the mindless praise. It seemed to miss both Wurm Online and A Tale in the Desert, both vastly superior and far more complex crafting systems than the mindless gear churning of the EQ and VG games. I also laugh at Eve even being mentioned. It has a fantastic economy and it's great the crafting system plays into it, but dumping a lot of ore into an automated factory and then waiting several days for your item to pop out like an easy-bake-oven is not a good crafting system. Sorry.
Its not just about the crafting process, if this is interactive or passive waiting. How it ties into the economy and world matters too for crafters. Both Fallen Earth and EVE excell in this.
SWG hands down, god sometimes I wonder why they don't just do a Graphics update to the old platform, and then roll it out on the servers, they would instantly increase their subs alot, the solution is right there, but they still seem to think that their current wow wannabe game is better than the original game which was better than anything I've played before or after SWG, despite the obvious bugs.
EQ2's crafting is the only one that didn't bore me to tears, nor feel unrewarding. Wow's crafting suuuuuuucks till max lvls unless it's one of the few profs useful the entire experience such as enchanting. but MAN do i remember SWG's crafting. my pal was so mad cause he did the math an needed to make like 613 palsma rifles to skill up! but its so true that games like it and EVE where everything in the entire game is made by players and thus really makes the game feel more alive. how i miss living a short distance from a player made town (so i didn't have to pay them taxes) and using their weapon shops, etc., to have the most fun i've probably ever had in any mmo pre-combat upgrade. if only there was a total sandbox mmo that i could sink my teeth into once again that also had galaxies impossibly solo-friendly design and jawesome class system. bein a commando with a flamethrower ... good times.
Superb crafting could have been a game by it's self don't think it will ever be bettered for it's ease of use and the complexity of it's formulas, and the interaction and elements needed lot's of practice to perfect none of this generic stuff u get today.
I must admit I haven't played all those games but if any of them are half of the crafting system that SWG had then they deserve to be on that list.
It pains me still today that I will never see the mass people in the starports buying and selling anything from speeders, to houses, to buffs, to entire suits of armour. No game has even come close in my opinion to replicating that level of emersion between the players.
You would have queues of people buying buffs off Master Doctors, you would think most people would complain in the queue, but really nobody seemed to, most people chatted to each other and duelled, heck some guys were even roleplaying without even realising they were doing it cos the atmosphere was so amazing.
Now, although the crafting system is still pretty much the same everything that proped it up has changed. Item decay and loot drops have made crafting a shadow of what it once was. Add the huge decline in player numbers to that and you have an awesome crafting engine without the necessary mechanics to hold it up.
It still baffles me today why SOE didnt reverse what they did. At least bring item decay back and make one of the best elements of the game meaningful again. I heard somewhere that the original code and orginal devs are all gone and that was one of the reasons they cannot go back. Dunno if thats true or not.
IMO Vanguard needs to be placed near the top of the list.
The majority of crafting systems in MMO's require you to thrown large sums of in game cash and resources to progress. In VG all that is needed is time.
The game rewarded you has you progressed with mats, equipment etc through work orders. You used work orders to progress through the sphere. Work orders provide you will the required mats except for some cheap crafting regents to complete the order. The majority of the time the rewards from the work order will cover your costs and make you a small profit. You only needed to buy mats when you wanted to make a useful product to sell, guild or yourself etc. It had it's own quests, gear progression factions separate from the adventuring sphere of the game. Work orders can become a bit of a grind after a while, but most crafting systems I've played become a grind after a while.
This is just the tip of the iceberg regarding VG's crafting system. The above is often overlooked when comparing it to other crafting systems.
As for Istaria, there is a lot of breadth in that system but it has the depth of a pancake and the fun factor of drying paint by holding up a big, bulky, heavy industrial fan in front of it for hours and hours and hours.
----------- In memory of Laura "Taera" Genender. Passed away on August 13, 2008.
I have to quibble with the inclusion of EVE Online.
It definitely has one of the greatest economies of any MMORPG. The "player economy" is not just a quaint euphemism for a flea market - the market actually drives the game and the PvP conflicts.
Crafting, however - the actual process of making something - is like a concentrated distillation of all the worst ideas in MMORPG crafting. Collect materials by poking rocks for dozens of hours. Collect rare parts by grinding mobs for dozens of hours. Place materials in drawer, click a button, and come back in X hours. The only interaction required by the player is the boring stuff.
Project Entropia (now Planet Calypso) and RaceWarKingdoms.com have the best crafting systems I have ever tried in an mmo (in my, not very humble, opinion)
Better than eq2, vanguard and EVE, I haven't tried crafting in the other games on the list
Typically lists like these are frusterating and against my opinion, but this one is pretty spot on. SWG was solid for sure and the others seem to deserve a spot on the list to either from my own experience or from what I have heard others say.
Nice work. I'm glad to see some attention given to a part of MMORPGs that I enjoy more than anything else, crafting and economics.
EQ2 crafting was neat but it was almost useless in the game unless they changed a lot in the past four years. Everything you crafted could be surpassed by some random quest reward just like WoW, but it was still a fun crafting system. Guess for that reason only it passed Ryzom, Istaria, and A Tale In The Desert which all have meaningful crafting.
Hmm, not ture. In Ryzom u dont "need" good gear at all. Only for 1 vs. 1 PvP or small team fights you'll see a little difference between a cheap but good and "high-end" gear.
But the crafting system is amazing. just put any materials together and see whats the result. to search for "real recipe" (and not just buy them from a npc) for yourself is a big plus. a greater sortiment of material and some "random effects" would be nice ...
Agree with #1. I liked that it wasn't hard to have the materials to make something, but to create the BEST of that something required very specific things with very specific properties.
This beats the bejeezus out of most modern systems, where you can't make, say... leather armor unless you have THAT SPECIFIC component. Have Heavy leather? Pristine Leather? Super-duper quality leather? Too bad, the recipe calls for mediocre leather. I know why they do it, I just think it's STILL dumb.
Even if it didn't change the specs, you should still be able to use a similar better quality ingredient to make a lesser item.
Comments
Couldn't agree more with the OP about SWG's crafting.
Having played and crafted in all the games he listed (besides EVE) as well, I think the main difference between SWG and the others would be not only community interdependence, but the fact that what a crafter made was actually VALUABLE.
I wasted a heck of a lot of time and resources in other games learning to craft, only to find out that players could get better equipment from loot drops. In Pre-CU SWG, not only did equipment degrade (necessitating either repairs from crafters or replacement from crafters), but crafters could make casual wear, better armor and weapons than players could pick up, and necessary (note, necessary) food and drink for fights. What a crafter did really mattered--people actually depended on crafters to be able to play well.
I have not encountered that in any other game I have played. I truly do hope some company out there picks up on that bright idea some day; it was one of the things that made the SWG community the great entity that it was.
Hey I thought this was about the systems behind the crafting instead of judging the system only based on what items you can create.
Crafting in FallenEarth is cool, but the system is rather simpel.
Also, why would you list Darkfall and at the same time completly forget about the extensive crafting system in MortalOnline?
Free-Realms has the best crafting in it... if you combine that with SWG's preNGE crafting, it would be my absolut favourite.
SWG has the BEST crafting system EVER! Love it but NGE kicked my ass a few years ago
Since then i'm lookimg for a mmo with this type of crafting (Eve or PotBS works fine but is not SWG's craft style).
I never played SWG so i obviously can't say anything about crafting system there. But from other games i played, vanguard does have the best crafting system. Sure Darkfall and EvE have a good system as well, mostly because economy is based on crafting, and poeple can craft virtualy anyting, but when it comes to complexity of crafting, and fun element vanguard wins. You can't produce items just from basic materials, you have to transform materials first, and then make final item. And a lot of things can go wrong, a lot of knowledge is needed just to make a basic item.
Eve crafting is also great, because there can be a lot of people involved in big projects, and there is a lot of thinking and planing and logistics involved in producing items. But basic crafting is still gather materials, and click produce. I would not say it is better or worse from Vanguard crafting, it is just different, and still very engaging and fun.
While Fallen earth is realy dependant from crafting, and producing new items is one of the most important aspect, it is not revolutionary, a lot of grinding is involved, but it is nice that you can make practicly anyting, and that items produced are better than those gained through PvE. Maybe it would be even better, if there would be FFA PvP in the game, and you would drop the items.
I would probably add Anarchy Online to the list, where there is a profession which can practicly specialize in crafting. Good crafters are hard to find and very precious. Though crafting is limited just to "combine materials to get item", there is a lot of skill and know-how involved.
Nice list. I would have trouble picking an order, because it kind of depends on what you find most important. The crafting process, how crafting ties into the player economy, how it has to compete with loot etc. None of the listed games (except SWG maybe) that excells in all those areas.
I wouldnt mind if this was a top 8, with Ryzom added. That game has a robust crafting system too.
No idea why (Pre-NGE) was tagged onto SWG crafting, crafting is still as good, if not better than the CU with all new craftables and a ton of bug fixes. Just log in and try it.
Lol @ no Ryzom.
Its not just about the crafting process, if this is interactive or passive waiting. How it ties into the economy and world matters too for crafters. Both Fallen Earth and EVE excell in this.
SWG hands down, god sometimes I wonder why they don't just do a Graphics update to the old platform, and then roll it out on the servers, they would instantly increase their subs alot, the solution is right there, but they still seem to think that their current wow wannabe game is better than the original game which was better than anything I've played before or after SWG, despite the obvious bugs.
EQ2's crafting is the only one that didn't bore me to tears, nor feel unrewarding. Wow's crafting suuuuuuucks till max lvls unless it's one of the few profs useful the entire experience such as enchanting. but MAN do i remember SWG's crafting. my pal was so mad cause he did the math an needed to make like 613 palsma rifles to skill up! but its so true that games like it and EVE where everything in the entire game is made by players and thus really makes the game feel more alive. how i miss living a short distance from a player made town (so i didn't have to pay them taxes) and using their weapon shops, etc., to have the most fun i've probably ever had in any mmo pre-combat upgrade. if only there was a total sandbox mmo that i could sink my teeth into once again that also had galaxies impossibly solo-friendly design and jawesome class system. bein a commando with a flamethrower ... good times.
Vanguard wins hand's down for me.
Superb crafting could have been a game by it's self don't think it will ever be bettered for it's ease of use and the complexity of it's formulas, and the interaction and elements needed lot's of practice to perfect none of this generic stuff u get today.
Honourable mentions
Horizons,Eve,POTBS
Cool, I'll have to check that out
Godspeed my fellow gamer
I must admit I haven't played all those games but if any of them are half of the crafting system that SWG had then they deserve to be on that list.
It pains me still today that I will never see the mass people in the starports buying and selling anything from speeders, to houses, to buffs, to entire suits of armour. No game has even come close in my opinion to replicating that level of emersion between the players.
You would have queues of people buying buffs off Master Doctors, you would think most people would complain in the queue, but really nobody seemed to, most people chatted to each other and duelled, heck some guys were even roleplaying without even realising they were doing it cos the atmosphere was so amazing.
Now, although the crafting system is still pretty much the same everything that proped it up has changed. Item decay and loot drops have made crafting a shadow of what it once was. Add the huge decline in player numbers to that and you have an awesome crafting engine without the necessary mechanics to hold it up.
It still baffles me today why SOE didnt reverse what they did. At least bring item decay back and make one of the best elements of the game meaningful again. I heard somewhere that the original code and orginal devs are all gone and that was one of the reasons they cannot go back. Dunno if thats true or not.
IMO Vanguard needs to be placed near the top of the list.
The majority of crafting systems in MMO's require you to thrown large sums of in game cash and resources to progress. In VG all that is needed is time.
The game rewarded you has you progressed with mats, equipment etc through work orders. You used work orders to progress through the sphere. Work orders provide you will the required mats except for some cheap crafting regents to complete the order. The majority of the time the rewards from the work order will cover your costs and make you a small profit. You only needed to buy mats when you wanted to make a useful product to sell, guild or yourself etc. It had it's own quests, gear progression factions separate from the adventuring sphere of the game. Work orders can become a bit of a grind after a while, but most crafting systems I've played become a grind after a while.
This is just the tip of the iceberg regarding VG's crafting system. The above is often overlooked when comparing it to other crafting systems.
You forgot Ryzom.
As for Istaria, there is a lot of breadth in that system but it has the depth of a pancake and the fun factor of drying paint by holding up a big, bulky, heavy industrial fan in front of it for hours and hours and hours.
-----------
In memory of Laura "Taera" Genender. Passed away on August 13, 2008.
Nice observation. I reckon the author has a Sony Station pass.
The only non-SOE titles on the list are Eve, Darkfall and Fallen Earth.
I also reckon the author never played any of the older or more Indie titles like Wurm, Ryzom, Horizons or Tale in the Desert.
I maintain this List of Sandbox MMORPGs. Please post or send PM for corrections and suggestions.
I'm surprised Horizons/Istaria did not make the list...crafting was really all the game had going for it back when I played it.
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I have to quibble with the inclusion of EVE Online.
It definitely has one of the greatest economies of any MMORPG. The "player economy" is not just a quaint euphemism for a flea market - the market actually drives the game and the PvP conflicts.
Crafting, however - the actual process of making something - is like a concentrated distillation of all the worst ideas in MMORPG crafting. Collect materials by poking rocks for dozens of hours. Collect rare parts by grinding mobs for dozens of hours. Place materials in drawer, click a button, and come back in X hours. The only interaction required by the player is the boring stuff.
Project Entropia (now Planet Calypso) and RaceWarKingdoms.com have the best crafting systems I have ever tried in an mmo (in my, not very humble, opinion)
Better than eq2, vanguard and EVE, I haven't tried crafting in the other games on the list
Typically lists like these are frusterating and against my opinion, but this one is pretty spot on. SWG was solid for sure and the others seem to deserve a spot on the list to either from my own experience or from what I have heard others say.
Nice work. I'm glad to see some attention given to a part of MMORPGs that I enjoy more than anything else, crafting and economics.
EQ2 crafting was neat but it was almost useless in the game unless they changed a lot in the past four years. Everything you crafted could be surpassed by some random quest reward just like WoW, but it was still a fun crafting system. Guess for that reason only it passed Ryzom, Istaria, and A Tale In The Desert which all have meaningful crafting.
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Hmm, not ture. In Ryzom u dont "need" good gear at all. Only for 1 vs. 1 PvP or small team fights you'll see a little difference between a cheap but good and "high-end" gear.
But the crafting system is amazing. just put any materials together and see whats the result. to search for "real recipe" (and not just buy them from a npc) for yourself is a big plus. a greater sortiment of material and some "random effects" would be nice ...
what some crap article again, jeez, it should be mortal online up there.
Agree with #1. I liked that it wasn't hard to have the materials to make something, but to create the BEST of that something required very specific things with very specific properties.
This beats the bejeezus out of most modern systems, where you can't make, say... leather armor unless you have THAT SPECIFIC component. Have Heavy leather? Pristine Leather? Super-duper quality leather? Too bad, the recipe calls for mediocre leather. I know why they do it, I just think it's STILL dumb.
Even if it didn't change the specs, you should still be able to use a similar better quality ingredient to make a lesser item.