All true... but one thing needs to be of note... The crafting system of SWG today is THE SAME as it was 7 years ago. Its more geared the way you descibed today then in the past. For instance... back in the day crafters were less dependant on other crafters then they are now.
Absolutely NOT, not even close! SOE has made large changes in the SWG crafting systems, namely removing deterioration from equipment. They have also added significant enhancement of equipment to the menu. Don't make ridiculous comments on this forum unless you are aware of what you are talking about.
Good list by the way although I found the EQII crafting to be overly complex and not fun. Ryzom and Istaria also have decent ones. Funny the most fun I have had crafting was UO. My equipment was always in high demand there.
The core foundation of SWG's crafting system is the same. Resource spawns/shifts/random stats, experimentation during crafting, factory schematics...those basic componets are the same.
Yes there have been changes to match the updates in the combat systems and overall game systems. You mention, specifically, the loss of durability as part of the crafting process. When they took item decay out of the game, the durability line became useless so it was removed.
Huh? seems to me that decay and durabilitiy are exactly the same thing and no the core is not the same, you did not craft in pre-nge swg if you even think that. Crafting was a major part of the game prior to nge, it became a secondary skill after NGE hence most crafters quit because nothing ever wore out anymore. Even today there are few crafters, finding a crafting vendor is a real stretch any more.
The only two games of those that I've played are Vanguard and PotBS. Both had crafting systems that were decent but not great. PotBS had crafting as nice side feature that you could spend a bit of time on every week, but not really something to build the game around. Now, a nice side feature is far better than most crafting systems.
Vanguard had a crafting system that was really, really grindy. There was exactly one crafting puzzle, and not that much depth to the system. It was still a considerable upgrade over crafting systems that have all of the grind and none of the depth, as seems to be common.
That either Vanguard or PotBS would go on a list like this, and that some people are arguing that Vanguard should be higher on the list, is really just indicative of how awful crafting in most MMORPGs is. Games that don't have crafting at all manage to have an above-average crafting system, because at least it's not a nuisance.
It's kind of like giving a game where the servers "only" crash once a week an award for exceptional server stability, on the basis that most of the competitors crash every day.
First I want to thank the author for the article.I love to read and talk about crafting in games(yes I have 5 crafters in Vanguard).I invite the author to listen to the comments here..and revisit the subject in 9-12 months.
You missed Istaria, easily one of the better (although Grindy) systems out there. Dozens of different craft trades to learn, and for plots literally hundreds of different things to add to your plot from snowmen and plants, to shops, to houses. Not to mention the hundreds of rooms and halls and murals and lairs to carve out of the mountains for dragon lairs.
Everything, litererally every good peice of armor, weapon, spell, cargo... peice in the game is player made.
Venge Sunsoar
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
thats not true crafters were way more important pre nge than they ever were afterwards. CU and NGE brought minimum and maximum damage on weapons and armor and made super weapons and armor generic. Crafting those items cost hundreds of millions on my server and the day CU hit i got them turned into something i wouldnt of paid 10k for.
Personally, I feel that UO and DAOC top all of these, and that's even considering that I don't play either of those games. Their crafting systems were still the best, in my view.
I could argue the order of the list,but in reality ,it doesn't matter.I cannot say crafting is a make it or break it,because NONE of the game do it topnotch the way i would like to see it.Crafting is still considered a weak part of the games,a non factor.
I know it is a VERY hard problem to fix,because if you make crafting the top thing in the game to do,it removes the need for the rest of the game.I also do not like anything related to FORCED Raiding to get the drops you need for the best crafts,this alienates a huge portion of the player base.
Personally i liked EQ2's from day 1,i find it has actually gone backwards.I liked the idea of TIERS,the problem was it was done a little too simple.This again leaves me stumped as to how to make it better,as the PARTS system favored bot crafters,and too easy means a less valuable market,and nothing is earned nor rare.
I do not see any indications that games are going to take crafting anymore serious,it seems they are spending all their time making 2000+ boring useless quests,just because it is easy to do.IMO IF and WHEN crafting makes a bigger impact on MMORPG's ,i would say it is going to be from SOE.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
1) SWG, pre NGE - The crafting system is in-depth, but now that durability has been removed and bots roam the galaxy, it's become more mundane. Leave it to SOE to ruin a good thing.
2) Eve Online - there are like 8 different crafting techniques, each requiring specific skills and giving specific products (T1 gear, T2, T3, rigs, boosters, PI, Capitals, Outposts, etc). That and the fact that you can sell what you harvest and make means it takes high honors, even if not as deep as SWG. The depth of PI reactions is impressive too.
3) Fallen Earth - the crafting here is top notch, but the bugs in the game design and the poorly designed missions drops it's value on this list.
4) ATITD and Wurm - The crafting systems are pretty similar, and the lack of established trade (aside from barter) means it's hard to sell what you have. Not impossible by far, but if the economy was improved, these games would be a competitor to SWG for top honors.
Haven't played any others, so I can't honestly comment on them. Even still, there are some nice crafting games out there.
"The civilized man is rude, as he knows there are laws that protect him from recompense; The savage is not, for his actions can meet a bloody end." - Robert E. Howard
I agree with #1 being SWG. Pre-NGE or current state.
The key was the resource system. Each resource has several stats, and they varied from spawn to spawn. There was some resources that didn't respawn again for years. This affected EVERYTHING. Because of this, you could actually have a server's best crafter in a specific area. Along with different stats of the resources, you could actually shift specific stats to create unique items based off demand. Need a longer buff from food? Put all your experimentation points into duration. Always fighting enemies with heat-based weapons? Shift the stats around to give armor extra heat protection. I've played majority of the games on this list, and none came close to the uniqueness of SWG.
On a side note, before I stopped playing a couple of years back (played pre-NGE and post), I still had one suit of composite armor that was max stats and sliced (got missed in conversion). I had so many people try to buy that suit from me that it wasn't even funny. It was impossible to craft at those stats. I want to say the base stats was 6400. I can't remember what the two stats were that varied were off the top of my head. I loved that armor....
Regarding to Horizon/Istaria which i left after the first month bcs it was so broken the crafting was the one thing that made it shine. But i also remeber to have read that they did a big crafting overhaul months later so i really doubt that the crafting today is the same as it was back at release.
"Torquemada... do not implore him for compassion. Torquemada... do not beg him for forgiveness. Torquemada... do not ask him for mercy. Let's face it, you can't Torquemada anything!"
4) ATITD and Wurm - The crafting systems are pretty similar, and the lack of established trade (aside from barter) means it's hard to sell what you have. Not impossible by far, but if the economy was improved, these games would be a competitor to SWG for top honors.
I made hundreds of trades in ATITD. The main reason why people didn't trade more in that game is that they didn't want to, but preferred to build everything themselves. The next most important reason was that travel was a pain.
But this thread was about crafting systems, not trading systems. Whether you wanted to craft things to sell or craft for personal use, there was plenty to do in ATITD, and of considerable variety. That's simply untrue of the crafting in nearly all MMORPGs on the market--probably including most of the games on the list that started this thread.
Not a good list, I'm afraid. I'm amused by the mindless praise. It seemed to miss both Wurm Online and A Tale in the Desert, both vastly superior and far more complex crafting systems than the mindless gear churning of the EQ and VG games. I also laugh at Eve even being mentioned. It has a fantastic economy and it's great the crafting system plays into it, but dumping a lot of ore into an automated factory and then waiting several days for your item to pop out like an easy-bake-oven is not a good crafting system. Sorry.
The morning sun has vanquished the horrible night.
Played all these games, EVE's crafting is by far the best. It has an entire hacking/researching/inventing/manufacturing as all parts of it. Research done is different places, owned by yourself/corp/alliance or NPC station, and that has to do with either rep, or getting the money to build the structure yourself for research and such. There is nothing more robust. Especially considering most things valuable in EVE, are created by the people, and ONLY by the people.
Not a good list, I'm afraid. I'm amused by the mindless praise. It seemed to miss both Wurm Online and A Tale in the Desert, both vastly superior and far more complex crafting systems than the mindless gear churning of the EQ and VG games. I also laugh at Eve even being mentioned. It has a fantastic economy and it's great the crafting system plays into it, but dumping a lot of ore into an automated factory and then waiting several days for your item to pop out like an easy-bake-oven is not a good crafting system. Sorry.
Dunno bout the placement of all the others. Personally I always thought that SWG had the single best crafting system. It actually seemed to be so complex and so well designed that it took on a life of its own that went way beyond what they had ever envisioned. The buffs that let one person walk into Tuskan Fort and walk out without a scratch, duoing the Corellian Corvette.... none of that (I believe) was intentional lol. How about the mind poisons roflmao.
Then take out drop weapons and gear then you get an entire economy which in turn added an entire meta game that I think was far more consuming to many players than the developers ever envisioned. One thing that was proven with the SWG crafting and general sand box game: players are a great deal more intelligent than developers give them credit for
Comments
Very accurate listing. The only thing I would have added was SWG NGE as well. NGE is still light years ahead of most games.
Huh? seems to me that decay and durabilitiy are exactly the same thing and no the core is not the same, you did not craft in pre-nge swg if you even think that. Crafting was a major part of the game prior to nge, it became a secondary skill after NGE hence most crafters quit because nothing ever wore out anymore. Even today there are few crafters, finding a crafting vendor is a real stretch any more.
Horizons (Istaria) IMO has the best crafting systems. Sure its a dated game but from day one the game is built around the crafting system.
The only two games of those that I've played are Vanguard and PotBS. Both had crafting systems that were decent but not great. PotBS had crafting as nice side feature that you could spend a bit of time on every week, but not really something to build the game around. Now, a nice side feature is far better than most crafting systems.
Vanguard had a crafting system that was really, really grindy. There was exactly one crafting puzzle, and not that much depth to the system. It was still a considerable upgrade over crafting systems that have all of the grind and none of the depth, as seems to be common.
That either Vanguard or PotBS would go on a list like this, and that some people are arguing that Vanguard should be higher on the list, is really just indicative of how awful crafting in most MMORPGs is. Games that don't have crafting at all manage to have an above-average crafting system, because at least it's not a nuisance.
It's kind of like giving a game where the servers "only" crash once a week an award for exceptional server stability, on the basis that most of the competitors crash every day.
First I want to thank the author for the article.I love to read and talk about crafting in games(yes I have 5 crafters in Vanguard).I invite the author to listen to the comments here..and revisit the subject in 9-12 months.
Crafting part maybe...but I'm not going to pay 15/month to craft with no one to buy my goods and nothing else to do.
You missed Istaria, easily one of the better (although Grindy) systems out there. Dozens of different craft trades to learn, and for plots literally hundreds of different things to add to your plot from snowmen and plants, to shops, to houses. Not to mention the hundreds of rooms and halls and murals and lairs to carve out of the mountains for dragon lairs.
Everything, litererally every good peice of armor, weapon, spell, cargo... peice in the game is player made.
Venge Sunsoar
Solid picks. Darkfall is great as well as Vanguard and Eve. Spot on for #1, for sure.
Having experienced the crafting in allthose listed , and currently testing Xyson .. it may move rapidly up that list when it releases imo..
thats not true crafters were way more important pre nge than they ever were afterwards. CU and NGE brought minimum and maximum damage on weapons and armor and made super weapons and armor generic. Crafting those items cost hundreds of millions on my server and the day CU hit i got them turned into something i wouldnt of paid 10k for.
4 out of the 7 were SOE titles.
Lacks Ryzom, Wurm and ATitD. Three games that should be damn near at the top of the list, but obviously before SWG.
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I wonder how UO isn't on this list...
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Personally, I feel that UO and DAOC top all of these, and that's even considering that I don't play either of those games. Their crafting systems were still the best, in my view.
I agree with this list . I think it is spot on. I miss my Master Droid Engineer. Well back to PI/
I could argue the order of the list,but in reality ,it doesn't matter.I cannot say crafting is a make it or break it,because NONE of the game do it topnotch the way i would like to see it.Crafting is still considered a weak part of the games,a non factor.
I know it is a VERY hard problem to fix,because if you make crafting the top thing in the game to do,it removes the need for the rest of the game.I also do not like anything related to FORCED Raiding to get the drops you need for the best crafts,this alienates a huge portion of the player base.
Personally i liked EQ2's from day 1,i find it has actually gone backwards.I liked the idea of TIERS,the problem was it was done a little too simple.This again leaves me stumped as to how to make it better,as the PARTS system favored bot crafters,and too easy means a less valuable market,and nothing is earned nor rare.
I do not see any indications that games are going to take crafting anymore serious,it seems they are spending all their time making 2000+ boring useless quests,just because it is easy to do.IMO IF and WHEN crafting makes a bigger impact on MMORPG's ,i would say it is going to be from SOE.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Of the games I've played, here's my list:
1) SWG, pre NGE - The crafting system is in-depth, but now that durability has been removed and bots roam the galaxy, it's become more mundane. Leave it to SOE to ruin a good thing.
2) Eve Online - there are like 8 different crafting techniques, each requiring specific skills and giving specific products (T1 gear, T2, T3, rigs, boosters, PI, Capitals, Outposts, etc). That and the fact that you can sell what you harvest and make means it takes high honors, even if not as deep as SWG. The depth of PI reactions is impressive too.
3) Fallen Earth - the crafting here is top notch, but the bugs in the game design and the poorly designed missions drops it's value on this list.
4) ATITD and Wurm - The crafting systems are pretty similar, and the lack of established trade (aside from barter) means it's hard to sell what you have. Not impossible by far, but if the economy was improved, these games would be a competitor to SWG for top honors.
Haven't played any others, so I can't honestly comment on them. Even still, there are some nice crafting games out there.
"The civilized man is rude, as he knows there are laws that protect him from recompense; The savage is not, for his actions can meet a bloody end."
- Robert E. Howard
been said a few times, worth saying again.
I agree with #1 being SWG. Pre-NGE or current state.
The key was the resource system. Each resource has several stats, and they varied from spawn to spawn. There was some resources that didn't respawn again for years. This affected EVERYTHING. Because of this, you could actually have a server's best crafter in a specific area. Along with different stats of the resources, you could actually shift specific stats to create unique items based off demand. Need a longer buff from food? Put all your experimentation points into duration. Always fighting enemies with heat-based weapons? Shift the stats around to give armor extra heat protection. I've played majority of the games on this list, and none came close to the uniqueness of SWG.
On a side note, before I stopped playing a couple of years back (played pre-NGE and post), I still had one suit of composite armor that was max stats and sliced (got missed in conversion). I had so many people try to buy that suit from me that it wasn't even funny. It was impossible to craft at those stats. I want to say the base stats was 6400. I can't remember what the two stats were that varied were off the top of my head. I loved that armor....
Regarding to Horizon/Istaria which i left after the first month bcs it was so broken the crafting was the one thing that made it shine.
But i also remeber to have read that they did a big crafting overhaul months later so i really doubt that the crafting today is the same as it was back at release.
"Torquemada... do not implore him for compassion. Torquemada... do not beg him for forgiveness. Torquemada... do not ask him for mercy. Let's face it, you can't Torquemada anything!"
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I made hundreds of trades in ATITD. The main reason why people didn't trade more in that game is that they didn't want to, but preferred to build everything themselves. The next most important reason was that travel was a pain.
But this thread was about crafting systems, not trading systems. Whether you wanted to craft things to sell or craft for personal use, there was plenty to do in ATITD, and of considerable variety. That's simply untrue of the crafting in nearly all MMORPGs on the market--probably including most of the games on the list that started this thread.
Not a good list, I'm afraid. I'm amused by the mindless praise. It seemed to miss both Wurm Online and A Tale in the Desert, both vastly superior and far more complex crafting systems than the mindless gear churning of the EQ and VG games. I also laugh at Eve even being mentioned. It has a fantastic economy and it's great the crafting system plays into it, but dumping a lot of ore into an automated factory and then waiting several days for your item to pop out like an easy-bake-oven is not a good crafting system. Sorry.
The morning sun has vanquished the horrible night.
Played all these games, EVE's crafting is by far the best. It has an entire hacking/researching/inventing/manufacturing as all parts of it. Research done is different places, owned by yourself/corp/alliance or NPC station, and that has to do with either rep, or getting the money to build the structure yourself for research and such. There is nothing more robust. Especially considering most things valuable in EVE, are created by the people, and ONLY by the people.
Someone who has no idea what he's talking about
Dunno bout the placement of all the others. Personally I always thought that SWG had the single best crafting system. It actually seemed to be so complex and so well designed that it took on a life of its own that went way beyond what they had ever envisioned. The buffs that let one person walk into Tuskan Fort and walk out without a scratch, duoing the Corellian Corvette.... none of that (I believe) was intentional lol. How about the mind poisons roflmao.
Then take out drop weapons and gear then you get an entire economy which in turn added an entire meta game that I think was far more consuming to many players than the developers ever envisioned. One thing that was proven with the SWG crafting and general sand box game: players are a great deal more intelligent than developers give them credit for
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