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Crowd Control? A thing of the past?

Big.Daddy.SamediBig.Daddy.Samedi Edmonton, ABPosts: 148Member Uncommon

Good Day,

    I have noticed that very few games have crowd control anymore..... my favorite class in EQ1 was the enchanter.... EQ2 the Coercer, hell even CoX I LOVED Controllers. What has happened to this in games. I enjoyed this mechanic for the strategy of groups. Now it is simply Healer, Tank, DPS. Does anyone else miss this type of mechanic?

If you know of a newer game (Other than EQ2) that has crowd control, please list it here. I would be happy to find a game again that has the CC classes! 

 

Thanks

Averros

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Comments

  • rastamolerastamole Las Vegas, NVPosts: 7Member

    Aion has CC with rangers and sorcs and also spiritmaster fear(EQ1 fear!)

  • OriousOrious O''Fallon, ILPosts: 548Member

    DC has CC... lots of it.

    image

  • zaylinzaylin Olympia, WAPosts: 789Member
    I personally think its a time thing, tactics that required/require CC toke a bit more time. and these days it seems people don't want to take the time to have the fun CC element/aspect in combat.
  • ParadoxyParadoxy New York, ALPosts: 786Member

    Warhammer is king of CC and the worst one you can find in any PVP MMORPG.

    Who could have thought that WOW could bring super power like USA to its knees?


    Originally posted by Arcken

    To put it in a nutshell, our society is about to hit the fan, grades are dropping, obesity is going up,childhood the USA is going to lose its super power status before too long, but hey, as long as we have a cheap method to babysit our kids, all will be well no?
    Im picking on WoW btw because its the beast that made all of this possible

  • Big.Daddy.SamediBig.Daddy.Samedi Edmonton, ABPosts: 148Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by rastamole

    Aion has CC with rangers and sorcs and also spiritmaster fear(EQ1 fear!)

    I found the CC in Aion to be minimal.... I am refering the AoE CC.... Like mesmerizing adds to make the fight more bareable... charms... all the things that made the Enchanter and Coercer so much fun.

  • WolfenprideWolfenpride San''doria, WIPosts: 3,988Member

    It's still around kind of, like in Aion as others have said

    But yes, the need for CC is being dumbed down to make mmo's easier. Usually not an essental part of a group anymore.

  • mmogawdmmogawd some city, CAPosts: 732Member

    Actually, I think the opposite is true.

    With the efforts of GW2 and SW:TOR to destroy the Holy Trinity,  I think Crowd Control will become even more viable as they try to give us Support classes with real value.

  • NcrediblebulkNcrediblebulk San Marcos, TXPosts: 137Member

    I miss the days of Daoc sitting watching your group die while you stood mezzed/rooted/stunned but it was so much fun when you were on the other side.

    You have a point in my opinion. However you can't really deny they still exists Warhammer has knockdowns, roots, and knockbacks. WoW has roots and stuns. Aoins has Asians? Even Eve has electronic weaponry.

     

    Developers seem to be moving towards less fight changing CC (shorter durations unlike 1 min single target mezzes of Daoc). Especially in PvP. I always liked how single target spells lasted tons longer than AoE ones in Dark Age and that you could also spend points into ways to offest the time it lasted on you.

    I think the biggest problem facing crowd controll is immunity timers. Finding the right length of time so someone can't stunlock you is at the front of the list. Gone are the days when you could keep someone locked down for more than 20 seconds but with it went being interupted if a melee looked at you when you were casting. Pre-kiting and combat kiting was an artform. Nothing was more frustrating than being locked down not being able to cast except once every 30 seconds as a caster. When WoW came out and you only got set back a half second or less when being swung at I thought it was overpowered as Warlocks.

     

    The point is you are correct in the fact that CC classes no longer exist. Healers have to be able to do damage or they are gimp and everyone needs to have a self heal these days.

    "Rather than love, than money, than fame, give me truth."

  • WizardryWizardry Ontario, CanadaPosts: 8,451Member Uncommon

    I have to ask why so many like crowd control?If i was a puller and made a bad pull,shoudl i be rewarded with having skills that can make my bad skills mute?Personally i never liked the massive mob scenario,i prefer 1-3 at most with controlled combat,any more is unrealistic ,your tank should be dead fast if fighting 6+ strong mobs.

    If you make a bad pull or draw unwanted aggro,then it should be up to your groups fast thinking skills to help you survive,it shouldn't be a mez everything and your safe routine.IDK maybe it is just me ,but i like the challenge of a skillful game,i don't like easy out mechanics.

    Thing of the past?I doubt it ,there is always some old school dev out there ,from Eq days ,thinks it should be in there.IMO i would rather not see it at all.


    Samoan Diamond

  • NcrediblebulkNcrediblebulk San Marcos, TXPosts: 137Member

    Originally posted by Paradoxy

    Warhammer is king of CC and the worst one you can find in any PVP MMORPG.

    Warhammer's CC isn't that bad now that they put in RAs to counter act it, but yes before they put in immunity timers for the four types of CC in the game it was rather frustrating. The same with Dark Age of Camlot though.

    "Rather than love, than money, than fame, give me truth."

  • mmogawdmmogawd some city, CAPosts: 732Member

    Originally posted by Wizardry

    I have to ask why so many like crowd control?If i was a puller and made a bad pull,shoudl i be rewarded with having skills that can make my bad skills mute?Personally i never liked the massive mob scenario,i prefer 1-3 at most with controlled combat,any more is unrealistic ,your tank should be dead fast if fighting 6+ strong mobs.

    If you make a bad pull or draw unwanted aggro,then it should be up to your groups fast thinking skills to help you survive,it shouldn't be a mez everything and your safe routine.IDK maybe it is just me ,but i like the challenge of a skillful game,i don't like easy out mechanics.

    Thing of the past?I doubt it ,there is always some old school dev out there ,from Eq days ,thinks it should be in there.IMO i would rather not see it at all.

    You reply makes me think you have no idea what Crowd Control is...

    Requiring crowd control can be an amazing challenge, much more than your tank 'n spank scenarios.

  • Chile267Chile267 Huntington Beach, CAPosts: 140Member

    I loved my Controller in COH. He was an Earth controller with Wind as his secondary. I would place a rock formation AOE around all mobs in a certain radius as a hold. Then I would put Volcanic Gases AOE in center of them which was a choke+Dmg. I would add in an Earthquack AOE for knockdown. The boss I would keep held with a Fossel hold. While the tank tanked and everyone else blasted away. I also had a Hurrican around myself (secondary Wind powers) which I buffed with Target + ToHit Debuffs so any mob held in place that fired ranged at me would miss most of the time, and if they broke out and ran to me the Hurrican would push back and then do knockback.

    Controllers are fun and part of any good MMO. I do wish they had more controllers like COH style, unfortunalty the end game and repeated mission of COH wore on me after a bit and I left. I still think COH had the best controllers.

  • Ralphie2449Ralphie2449 Athens-PetroupoliPosts: 403Member

    I agree, cc is an important mechanic

    What i disagree with is to have a character that is only based on that, i hate rock paper scissors games when you play 1 class you can only do one think and in pvp you either 100 win or 100% lose. Classes should work with different playstyles not different roles that force you only into 1 path. A healer should have the best heals but it shouldnt be defensless against an archer and lose 100%

    image
  • brostynbrostyn Louisville, KYPosts: 3,092Member

    Originally posted by Wolfenpride

    But yes, the need for CC is being dumbed down to make mmo's easier. Usually not an essental part of a group anymore.

    Really? How is CC not considered dumbed down?



    "Oh, let's mez this mob, so he sits there." Yea, that's not easy mode, is it?

     

    CC was/is just a terrible idea, imo.

  • NcrediblebulkNcrediblebulk San Marcos, TXPosts: 137Member

    Originally posted by brostyn

    Originally posted by Wolfenpride

    But yes, the need for CC is being dumbed down to make mmo's easier. Usually not an essental part of a group anymore.

    Really? How is CC not considered dumbed down?



    "Oh, let's mez this mob, so he sits there." Yea, that's not easy mode, is it?

     

    CC was/is just a terrible idea, imo.

    Because a game with no CC is merely just you hitting buttons (sometimes in a sequence) that do damage with the occasional reactive or defensive lifesaving ability. Or just spamming healing spells.

     

    Sounds like a winner to me. Point me to where I can bot beta keys please!

    "Rather than love, than money, than fame, give me truth."

  • rounnerrounner CanberraPosts: 603Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by brostyn

    Originally posted by Wolfenpride

    But yes, the need for CC is being dumbed down to make mmo's easier. Usually not an essental part of a group anymore.

    Really? How is CC not considered dumbed down?



    "Oh, let's mez this mob, so he sits there." Yea, that's not easy mode, is it?

     

    CC was/is just a terrible idea, imo.

    He's talking about speeding up fights where you dont have to lay cc before pulls. In other ways cc essential fights are more demanding, for example trying to not break cc means you need to split pull to avoid aoeing them etc. It doesnt sound like youve really played a cc centric game.

  • brostynbrostyn Louisville, KYPosts: 3,092Member

    Originally posted by rounner

    Originally posted by brostyn


    Originally posted by Wolfenpride

    But yes, the need for CC is being dumbed down to make mmo's easier. Usually not an essental part of a group anymore.

    Really? How is CC not considered dumbed down?



    "Oh, let's mez this mob, so he sits there." Yea, that's not easy mode, is it?

     

    CC was/is just a terrible idea, imo.

    He's talking about speeding up fights where you dont have to lay cc before pulls. In other ways cc essential fights are more demanding, for example trying to not break cc means you need to split pull to avoid aoeing them etc. It doesnt sound like youve really played a cc centric game.

    If you think EQ and DAOC were not CC centric, then you are certainly clueless.

    That is how I know CC was easy mode. Every time we had CC we destroyed everything easily. I would say that having no CC is far more challenging. Yes, I did play an Enchanter in EQ, so I know a thing or two.

  • NcrediblebulkNcrediblebulk San Marcos, TXPosts: 137Member

    CC in Daoc didn't ensure a win unless your enemies had none. In which case yes you are right CC was easy mode. Yes bombs groups depended on CC but zerg vs zerg people used AoE like they were trying to nuke Hibernia off the planet (edit: so it's not like it stuck for long) and 8v8 CC was used but if your group was good enough you could counter act it.

     

    I never played EQ but if you take CC out then like I stated before all you basically have is a player spamming dmg/taunting/healing skills until a mob is dead. There's no real strategy used in that. Yes enounters may require movent and such but it still boils down to "press 1 if x, press 2 if y, press 3 if z, repeat."

    "Rather than love, than money, than fame, give me truth."

  • swing848swing848 Marion, OHPosts: 274Member

    I am not so sure about Warhammer being the king of CC.

    Dark Age of Camelot still has CC that works very well on mobs.  Human players are another matter, as one of the first things a player does is put points [many only put one point] in the RA that will break CC, but those people can still be hit with CC again.

    There are classes in DAoC that are able to break CC for their entire group.  If you still have time, cast CC again.  CC seems to work much better in battlegrounds [pre-level 50 New Frontiers, where many people have lots of RAs].

    However, CC still exists.  It just may not any longer lock down a group [ah, good ol' Mids] for a full minute while 3 guys kill 10.

    Again, for PvE, CC is awesome.

     

    EDIT:

    I forgot to add, DAoC and all expansions is free to download.  Free to play for 10  to 14 days, depending upon what Mythic is offering at the time.  $14.95 a month after that.

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  • brostynbrostyn Louisville, KYPosts: 3,092Member

    Originally posted by ajrock622

    I never played EQ but if you take CC out then like I stated before all you basically have is a player spamming dmg/taunting/healing skills until a mob is dead. There's no real strategy used in that. Yes enounters may require movent and such but it still boils down to "press 1 if x, press 2 if y, press 3 if z, repeat."

    Yet, you are insinuating that there is strategy by pressing a spell gem that puts mobs to sleep. I fail to see how making a mob totally harmless by pressing your mez key is more strategic than pressing taunt hotkeys. I think it actually makes it easier, because the mob isn't even causing damage. So, basically you are healing less with mez than without. Less resources are being used, and the chance of dying is significantly reduced.  There is absolutely no player strategy involved when all I have to do is hit the mez key. Mez is far more powerful than taunt, as a mez basically takes that creature out of the fight, where as taunt just makes them attack a particular person. Yea, not seeing how putting a mob to sleep is easier than having to control that mobs aggro.

  • NcrediblebulkNcrediblebulk San Marcos, TXPosts: 137Member

    Originally posted by brostyn

    Originally posted by ajrock622



    I never played EQ but if you take CC out then like I stated before all you basically have is a player spamming dmg/taunting/healing skills until a mob is dead. There's no real strategy used in that. Yes enounters may require movent and such but it still boils down to "press 1 if x, press 2 if y, press 3 if z, repeat."

    Yet, you are insinuating that there is strategy by pressing a spell gem that puts mobs to sleep. I fail to see how making a mob totally harmless by pressing your mez key is more strategic than pressing taunt hotkeys. I think it actually makes it easier, because the mob isn't even causing damage. So, basically you are healing less with mez than without. Less resources are being used, and the chance of dying is significantly reduced.  There is absolutely no player strategy involved when all I have to do is hit the mez key. Mez is far more powerful than taunt, as a mez basically takes that creature out of the fight, where as taunt just makes them attack a particular person. Yea, not seeing how putting a mob to sleep is easier than having to control that mobs aggro.

    Well you are strictly talking about mezz. I'm going to assume we are talking about DAOC type mezzes. If that is the case yes you are right for the most part. Even mezz however has some strategy behind it. Choosing who to mezz and when is vital but it's like that with any CC. Taunt is much more of a reactive skill where CC can be both.

    I am however talking about CC in general (root/stun/knockdown/knockback/disarm/silence/mana drain/etc.) Knowing when to use an ability that puts stress on your enemy is strategic.

     

    I.E. DPS Warrior archtype with an spell casting interupt vs a Hybrid dps/healer

     

    Without the interupt a warrior has to rely on either getting the RNG to favor him/her and get lucky crits to burst the caster down before they can offset the warriors high damage with the casters heals or hope that the caster runs out of mana before the warrior runs out of health.

     

    With the interupt the warrior has to choose between interupting a dps spell to save himeself from incomming damage or interupt a heal and continue to burn the caster down until dead. We all know which is more important. Timing on the second is everything as anyone who has played a class that like knows.

    "Rather than love, than money, than fame, give me truth."

  • SpasticolonSpasticolon MelbournePosts: 178Member

    Originally posted by ajrock622

    I miss the days of Daoc sitting watching your group die while you stood mezzed/rooted/stunned but it was so much fun when you were on the other side.

    You have a point in my opinion. However you can't really deny they still exists Warhammer has knockdowns, roots, and knockbacks. WoW has roots and stuns. Aoins has Asians? Even Eve has electronic weaponry.

    I rarely got locked down in Aion as a Cleric which made me sad, but the times that I was CC'ed (CC'd?) by a smart sorc and then my group blown up was a nice reaffirmation that some people know who to target first.

    Developers seem to be moving towards less fight changing CC (shorter durations unlike 1 min single target mezzes of Daoc). Especially in PvP. I always liked how single target spells lasted tons longer than AoE ones in Dark Age and that you could also spend points into ways to offest the time it lasted on you.

    I think the biggest problem facing crowd controll is immunity timers. Finding the right length of time so someone can't stunlock you is at the front of the list. Gone are the days when you could keep someone locked down for more than 20 seconds but with it went being interupted if a melee looked at you when you were casting. Pre-kiting and combat kiting was an artform. Nothing was more frustrating than being locked down not being able to cast except once every 30 seconds as a caster. When WoW came out and you only got set back a half second or less when being swung at I thought it was overpowered as Warlocks.

    Try a Sorc in Aion, you can lockdown for nearly as long as you have mana. You have to farm/buy the Tree stigma, but you can chain up CC and keep one Mob out of the fight, or two if you have a little help. I played a Cleric, with the most broken CC available. A root, that lasts for 6 seconds, and has a 10 second cooldown, made PvP so much easier for me when hunting down runners. When in dungeons I would keep an eye on the Sorc's CC target if it was a PuG and if the sorc was slow on the CC id drop my root on it and buy him a little more time.

    But I will agree that Warhammers Immunity was a bit of a ballsup, I ran Aura mod just so that I knew when my CC would not work on a mob because some tanks were spam happy with their punt, but not smart enough to punt them to our MDPS stack, instead sending them to their own healers for a top up.

    The point is you are correct in the fact that CC classes no longer exist. Healers have to be able to do damage or they are gimp and everyone needs to have a self heal these days.

    Yeah, the reduction of CC classes means that Healers have to do more work, or everyone has to have some ability to heal themselves to alleviate the great big clustercuck of herp derp AoE. Such is the way of streamlining, very soon MMO's will play like Diablo 2, No heal class, No tank class, all DPS and potions.

  • NcrediblebulkNcrediblebulk San Marcos, TXPosts: 137Member

    It sounds like Aion has no immunity timers placed into the game yet. So I'll take your word on the lockdown stuff and chain rooting cleric.

     

    I hope you are wrong in your prediction. I would love a current gen MMO to come out with clearly defined roles for each class.

     

    And trifaction pvp of course.

    "Rather than love, than money, than fame, give me truth."

  • Big.Daddy.SamediBig.Daddy.Samedi Edmonton, ABPosts: 148Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Spasticolon

    Originally posted by ajrock622

    I miss the days of Daoc sitting watching your group die while you stood mezzed/rooted/stunned but it was so much fun when you were on the other side.

    You have a point in my opinion. However you can't really deny they still exists Warhammer has knockdowns, roots, and knockbacks. WoW has roots and stuns. Aoins has Asians? Even Eve has electronic weaponry.

    I rarely got locked down in Aion as a Cleric which made me sad, but the times that I was CC'ed (CC'd?) by a smart sorc and then my group blown up was a nice reaffirmation that some people know who to target first.

    Developers seem to be moving towards less fight changing CC (shorter durations unlike 1 min single target mezzes of Daoc). Especially in PvP. I always liked how single target spells lasted tons longer than AoE ones in Dark Age and that you could also spend points into ways to offest the time it lasted on you.

    I think the biggest problem facing crowd controll is immunity timers. Finding the right length of time so someone can't stunlock you is at the front of the list. Gone are the days when you could keep someone locked down for more than 20 seconds but with it went being interupted if a melee looked at you when you were casting. Pre-kiting and combat kiting was an artform. Nothing was more frustrating than being locked down not being able to cast except once every 30 seconds as a caster. When WoW came out and you only got set back a half second or less when being swung at I thought it was overpowered as Warlocks.

    Try a Sorc in Aion, you can lockdown for nearly as long as you have mana. You have to farm/buy the Tree stigma, but you can chain up CC and keep one Mob out of the fight, or two if you have a little help. I played a Cleric, with the most broken CC available. A root, that lasts for 6 seconds, and has a 10 second cooldown, made PvP so much easier for me when hunting down runners. When in dungeons I would keep an eye on the Sorc's CC target if it was a PuG and if the sorc was slow on the CC id drop my root on it and buy him a little more time.

    But I will agree that Warhammers Immunity was a bit of a ballsup, I ran Aura mod just so that I knew when my CC would not work on a mob because some tanks were spam happy with their punt, but not smart enough to punt them to our MDPS stack, instead sending them to their own healers for a top up.

    The point is you are correct in the fact that CC classes no longer exist. Healers have to be able to do damage or they are gimp and everyone needs to have a self heal these days.

    Yeah, the reduction of CC classes means that Healers have to do more work, or everyone has to have some ability to heal themselves to alleviate the great big clustercuck of herp derp AoE. Such is the way of streamlining, very soon MMO's will play like Diablo 2, No heal class, No tank class, all DPS and potions.

    I wish I could try Aion but the damnable game will not install on my machine for some reason... the patcher continually restarts... I might just go back to EQ2 since I really want to go back to playing a crowd control class....

  • tikitiki montpelier, VTPosts: 395Member

    Originally posted by Paradoxy

    Warhammer is king of CC and the worst one you can find in any PVP MMORPG.

    Not true at all, DAOC was the king of CC before WAR released, and is still the king of CC after WAR released.  Also it is the king of PVP.

    East Carolina University, Computer Science BS, 2011
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