Endgame - What would you do?

dnarrisdnarris Jonesboro, ARMember Posts: 267

I've realized this seems to be a real problem for every MMO that gets released.

Developers seem to underestimate how fast gamers can advance in their games. So, with many new mmos players blow through the content and find there's nothing to keep them busy when they reach max level. The consequence of this is that many players get bored of the game before it has time to mature.

So, what I'm asking here is what kind of system would you put in place as the released "endgame" in a new MMO. It should be something that is not only interesting and fun, but something that is worth repeating to keep high level players active while new content is being released.

Remember that there is a limit on development time and resources, so what you suggest has to be reasonable in terms of time and cost.

What kind of ideas can you guys come up with?

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Comments

  • Rockgod99Rockgod99 Manhatten, NYMember Posts: 4,640
    I prefer not to have one at all.

    image

    Playing: Rift, LotRO
    Waiting on: GW2, BP

  • FreddyNoNoseFreddyNoNose LosAngeles, CAMember Posts: 1,558

    Originally posted by Rockgod99

    I prefer not to have one at all.

     I'd have to go with this one.

  • VirusDancerVirusDancer Brandon, FLMember UncommonPosts: 3,649

    You outline the actual issue but then ignore it in looking at the wrong issue.  Players level too quickly.  MMORPGs used to be more about the journey than reaching an endgame where you could do the game lobby thing.

    Face it, that is what an endgame is - it is a game lobby.  You may as well be playing a FPS/RTS.  For many people though, this is what they want.  They do not want to be bothered with the leveling aspect - they just want the game lobby.  For these people then, you will basically want to design the game as that FPS/RTS game lobby.  These people keep playing.  They can do their repetitive stuff and socialize.  You can toss out a new map with a new carrot and they are golden..

    For those that enjoy the journey... well, you would not be addressing an endgame for them would you?

    I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?

    Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%

  • dnarrisdnarris Jonesboro, ARMember Posts: 267

    Originally posted by VirusDancer

    You outline the actual issue but then ignore it in looking at the wrong issue.  Players level too quickly.  MMORPGs used to be more about the journey than reaching an endgame where you could do the game lobby thing.
    Face it, that is what an endgame is - it is a game lobby.  You may as well be playing a FPS/RTS.  For many people though, this is what they want.  They do not want to be bothered with the leveling aspect - they just want the game lobby.  For these people then, you will basically want to design the game as that FPS/RTS game lobby.  These people keep playing.  They can do their repetitive stuff and socialize.  You can toss out a new map with a new carrot and they are golden..
    For those that enjoy the journey... well, you would not be addressing an endgame for them would you?

     You have a point.

    However, you seemingly just have a differing option on the matter. I don't think that just, because you have a different opinion on that matter, makes exploring an idea from this proposed view wrong or incorrect in some fashion.

  • VirusDancerVirusDancer Brandon, FLMember UncommonPosts: 3,649

    Originally posted by dnarris


    Originally posted by VirusDancer


    You outline the actual issue but then ignore it in looking at the wrong issue.  Players level too quickly.  MMORPGs used to be more about the journey than reaching an endgame where you could do the game lobby thing.
    Face it, that is what an endgame is - it is a game lobby.  You may as well be playing a FPS/RTS.  For many people though, this is what they want.  They do not want to be bothered with the leveling aspect - they just want the game lobby.  For these people then, you will basically want to design the game as that FPS/RTS game lobby.  These people keep playing.  They can do their repetitive stuff and socialize.  You can toss out a new map with a new carrot and they are golden..
    For those that enjoy the journey... well, you would not be addressing an endgame for them would you?

     You have a point.

    However, you seemingly just have a differing option on the matter. I don't think that just, because you have a different opinion on that matter, makes exploring an idea from this proposed view wrong or incorrect in some fashion.

    Was not saying it was wrong to discuss it.  While I was not specific, I did say in designing an endgame that I would look more at how FPS/RTS games handle it.  How do those games keep their players?  That is how you would work on endgame....

    I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?

    Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%

  • djazzydjazzy louisville, COMember Posts: 3,578

    Originally posted by Rockgod99

    I prefer not to have one at all.

     This.

    Really, it should be player driven. EVE has the right idea in this regard (even though I can't really stand the spaceship only thing).

  • ButtermilchButtermilch FlensburgMember Posts: 208

    There are two issues with this topic:

    1. The definition of endgame only exists because of the typical level-based system. In an ideal game, "endgame" starts right from the beginning. There is no separation of the two phases "leveling" and "endgame".

     

    2. I think one of the reasons why people want to hit endgame in most common MMOs is because of this:

    When you meet someone at level 20 (for example) and you become friends... you might not be able to play together again in a week or so. Why? One of you advanced faster and the level-based system prohibits you from playing together any longer.

     

    At endgame... you won't have to deal with this. Everyone is at a similar power level and there is always something you could do with your social contacts.

  • Brone87Brone87 DeBary, FLMember Posts: 244

    I am definietly a PVP focused gamer so I would have a 3 faction MMO that uses your typical EQ/WoW fighting system but revolves around a seamless world with lots of Castles/Bases/Forts/Cities whatever and basically sort of be like Planetside but also with your normal quests, dungeons and leveling.

    For instance have a city that starts off neutral and have some smaller outposts within view of the city. Your Faction would attack the outpost as a forward spawn to attack the City held by whoever is in control NPC/Enemy Faction... and then after taking the outpost you take the city over.

    There would be many cities all throughout the world and eventually the player factions would own them all and it would become a global PVP slugfest fighting to get the outposts outside of the city your Faction would be trying to take while battling the other factions and trying to defend your own territorys.

    I never played DAoC or Shadowbane so im not familiar how their systems worked but if there could be some way of making these territories worthwhile to occupy this would make for a great game... like WAR should have been.

    The big thing however is everything would have to be non-instanced and a seamless world would create the atmosphere for a super immersive experience.

    Anyhow just my thoughts.

  • EnerzealEnerzeal WarringtonMember Posts: 326

    Originally posted by Rockgod99

    I prefer not to have one at all.
  • MMOExposedMMOExposed lalal land, DCMember UncommonPosts: 6,591

    End game is just a term!!!

    Its a term for once a player reachs the end of the physical lvls. Progressions still are there, just its no longer the number next to "Levels".

     

    The problem is, the player that play MMORPG, expect a never ending progression, but that want to be told what to do, and how the progress.

     

    it has nothing to do with Endgame, since both before max lvl, and at max lvl, you will still be progressing your character.

    image

  • rejadrejad Yeahrightville, AZMember Posts: 346

    I guess I'm "pro-endgame" but the reason for that is I don't want restrictions between me and other players.  A level system seperates the player base from each other.  To me this is antithetical to the whole reason for even playing an online game.  I want to be able to play with a player who just created his toon yesterday or one who has been playing for a year.  I don't like the divisions that exist because sometimes it can be hard enough to find people to play with even if you are all on the same page so to speak.

    To find some way to facilitate this while having some means of advancement, well I guess therein lies the rub.

  • WarmakerWarmaker San Diego, CAMember UncommonPosts: 2,234

    Originally posted by arenasb


    Originally posted by Rockgod99

    I prefer not to have one at all.

     This.

    Really, it should be player driven. EVE has the right idea in this regard (even though I can't really stand the spaceship only thing).

    I agree.

    This is where a Sandbox-centered game has a chance to shine over Themepark driven one.  Give players the open gameplay, the tools, the open game world, etc., and they will make their own.

    With a Themepark-driven game, you're depending on leading through the players and telling them a quest story, a dungeon, and specific NPCs and rewards for going through it.  Quest by quest, dungeon by dungeon.

    I think of it like this.  It's like giving your kids the backyard and a sh*tload of toys and saying, "Have fun" while you go off and watch TV or prepare lunch.  They'll figure something out.  The other way is entertaining them primarily with telling a story and showing pictures.  You're not giving them many toys and you're not going to let them venture outside, so you have to keep leading them through story time image

    "I have only two out of my company and 20 out of some other company. We need support, but it is almost suicide to try to get it here as we are swept by machine gun fire and a constant barrage is on us. I have no one on my left and only a few on my right. I will hold." (First Lieutenant Clifton B. Cates, US Marine Corps, Soissons, 19 July 1918)

  • grimfallgrimfall Missouri City, TXMember UncommonPosts: 1,153

    Originally posted by Warmaker


    Originally posted by arenasb



    Originally posted by Rockgod99

    I prefer not to have one at all.

     This.

    Really, it should be player driven. EVE has the right idea in this regard (even though I can't really stand the spaceship only thing).

    I agree.

    This is where a Sandbox-centered game has a chance to shine over Themepark driven one.  Give players the open gameplay, the tools, the open game world, etc., and they will make their own.

    With a Themepark-driven game, you're depending on leading through the players and telling them a quest story, a dungeon, and specific NPCs and rewards for going through it.  Quest by quest, dungeon by dungeon.

    I think of it like this.  It's like giving your kids the backyard and a sh*tload of toys and saying, "Have fun" while you go off and watch TV or prepare lunch.  They'll figure something out.  The other way is entertaining them primarily with telling a story and showing pictures.  You're not giving them many toys and you're not going to let them venture outside, so you have to keep leading them through story time image

    Ok, good idea, but what are you going to do for the other 85% of the kids, that don't like the neighbors kids climbing over the fence, stealing the toys and being beaten over the head with them?

    It's been proven over and over again and again that the vast majority of the market doesn't enjoy FFA PVP as "end game" content.

    Think of something else.

  • RobokappRobokapp Dublin, OHMember RarePosts: 5,903

    raiding.

    image

  • MMOExposedMMOExposed lalal land, DCMember UncommonPosts: 6,591

    Originally posted by rejad

    I guess I'm "pro-endgame" but the reason for that is I don't want restrictions between me and other players.  A level system seperates the player base from each other.  To me this is antithetical to the whole reason for even playing an online game.  I want to be able to play with a player who just created his toon yesterday or one who has been playing for a year.  I don't like the divisions that exist because sometimes it can be hard enough to find people to play with even if you are all on the same page so to speak.
    To find some way to facilitate this while having some means of advancement, well I guess therein lies the rub.

    there isnt a gap.

     

    the gap that we know of, is actually PLAYER MADE.

     

    Just think about it.

    using wow for my example,,,,

    1----lvling---79   <--not endgame contents, but is still a form of progression.

    @80 Now endgame STARTS, but is still a form of progression.

    the only difference is that we now longer have the levels to count our physical progression.

     

    Its the same thing. Thats what I am trying to get people to realise, thats We the players created the gap.

    image

  • KyleranKyleran Paradise City, FLMember LegendaryPosts: 26,665

    See DAOC back in its glory days..... End game problem was solved many years ago....

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    On hiatus from EVE Online since Dec 2016 - CCP continues to wander aimlessly

    In my day MMORPG's were so hard we fought our way through dungeons in the snow, uphill both ways.

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon




  • Garvon3Garvon3 Worcester, MAMember Posts: 2,898

    Originally posted by Kyleran

    See DAOC back in its glory days..... End game problem was solved many years ago....

    Bingo. 

     

    Player generated content/dynamic expansive PvP is the way to go for end game. Or, design a game that doesn't end at all, like Darkfall. 

     

    The only MMOs struggling with "end game" are those based on the flawed EQ (and now WoW) model. 

  • tazarconantazarconan athensMember Posts: 1,013

    A game that launched is supposely full of intresting activities for players of all tiers. If u get to lvl Cap and u sit bored in a major city just reading trading channels,thats indeed boring and leads to the conclusion there is not much endgame intresting activities which means the developer ate your money and u r a great sucker for paying them.

  • MMOExposedMMOExposed lalal land, DCMember UncommonPosts: 6,591

    Originally posted by tazarconan

    A game that launched is supposely full of intresting activities for players of all tiers. If u get to lvl Cap and u sit bored in a major city just reading trading channels,thats indeed boring and leads to the conclusion there is not much endgame intresting activities which means the developer ate your money and u r a great sucker for paying them.

    No you should go back and do the same stuff you were doing while lvling, since you found that interesting to lvl doing it.

    image

  • VirusDancerVirusDancer Brandon, FLMember UncommonPosts: 3,649

    Originally posted by MMOExposed


    Originally posted by tazarconan


    A game that launched is supposely full of intresting activities for players of all tiers. If u get to lvl Cap and u sit bored in a major city just reading trading channels,thats indeed boring and leads to the conclusion there is not much endgame intresting activities which means the developer ate your money and u r a great sucker for paying them.

    No you should go back and do the same stuff you were doing while lvling, since you found that interesting to lvl doing it.

    So you are offering players two choices:


    1. Repeating the same thing at "endgame"...

    2. Repeating the same thing up to "endgame"...

    Can you see where people might get bored?

    I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?

    Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%

  • FastTxFastTx PTBO, ONMember UncommonPosts: 756

    A system where you can join or create your own clan.

    That clan can either build a fortress/city to defend or capture an already developed one.

    The clan can take/create more than one fortress/city but would have to simultaneously defend them all and create a kingdom.

    The ability to have different roles within a clan, being a crafter, miner, warrior, politician or whatever you choose (sandbox).

    An ever expanding land that generates and suites the needs of the playerbase.

    A market akin to EvE.

    The ability to kill anyone you want anywhere. If you have a license to kill (military of the territory) you won't be punished but your territory might face reprecussions (political and economical). If you kill someone without reason you might be flagged as a wanted outlaw.

     

    Pretty much a mixture of EvE, Darkfall and Lineage 2.

  • Garvon3Garvon3 Worcester, MAMember Posts: 2,898

    Originally posted by FastTx

    A system where you can join or create your own clan.
    That clan can either build a fortress/city to defend or capture an already developed one.
    The clan can take/create more than one fortress/city but would have to simultaneously defend them all and create a kingdom.
    The ability to have different roles within a clan, being a crafter, miner, warrior, politician or whatever you choose (sandbox).
    An ever expanding land that generates and suites the needs of the playerbase.
    A market akin to EvE.
    The ability to kill anyone you want anywhere. If you have a license to kill (military of the territory) you won't be punished but your territory might face reprecussions (political and economical). If you kill someone without reason you might be flagged as a wanted outlaw.
     
    Pretty much a mixture of EvE, Darkfall and Lineage 2.

    Aside from the expanding land and local banking, you described Darkfall

  • rejadrejad Yeahrightville, AZMember Posts: 346

    Originally posted by MMOExposed


    Originally posted by rejad


    I guess I'm "pro-endgame" but the reason for that is I don't want restrictions between me and other players.  A level system seperates the player base from each other.  To me this is antithetical to the whole reason for even playing an online game.  I want to be able to play with a player who just created his toon yesterday or one who has been playing for a year.  I don't like the divisions that exist because sometimes it can be hard enough to find people to play with even if you are all on the same page so to speak.
    To find some way to facilitate this while having some means of advancement, well I guess therein lies the rub.

    there isnt a gap.

     

    the gap that we know of, is actually PLAYER MADE.

     

    Just think about it.

    using wow for my example,,,,

    1----lvling---79   <--not endgame contents, but is still a form of progression.

    @80 Now endgame STARTS, but is still a form of progression.

    the only difference is that we now longer have the levels to count our physical progression.

     

    Its the same thing. Thats what I am trying to get people to realise, thats We the players created the gap.

    I'm not sure I'm following what you're saying so excuse me if I'm wrong about it.  But it seems that you say that the gap between players isn't created by game mechanics.  That's silly.  A level 20 player in WoW is absolutely worthless in every way, shape, or form to a level 80 character.  There is no reason, by the game mechanics alone, for a level 80 player to be at all interested in hanging around a level 20 character.  The level 20 cannot help a level 80 at all, per game mechanics.  Sure there are social reasons, by I might as well use Skype or IM and not pay for some game.  Or post on a forum like this, which is pretty much what I do because I certainly don't play any MMO's right now.

    Darkfall sounds interesting but it's derisively called Gankall for a reason.  Using a statistical advantage to lord your might over other players who literally have no chance to put up a real contest is of no interest to me.  Plus the game looks like butt.

  • VirusDancerVirusDancer Brandon, FLMember UncommonPosts: 3,649

    Originally posted by rejad


    Originally posted by MMOExposed



    Originally posted by rejad


    I guess I'm "pro-endgame" but the reason for that is I don't want restrictions between me and other players.  A level system seperates the player base from each other.  To me this is antithetical to the whole reason for even playing an online game.  I want to be able to play with a player who just created his toon yesterday or one who has been playing for a year.  I don't like the divisions that exist because sometimes it can be hard enough to find people to play with even if you are all on the same page so to speak.
    To find some way to facilitate this while having some means of advancement, well I guess therein lies the rub.

    there isnt a gap.

     

    the gap that we know of, is actually PLAYER MADE.

     

    Just think about it.

    using wow for my example,,,,

    1----lvling---79   <--not endgame contents, but is still a form of progression.

    @80 Now endgame STARTS, but is still a form of progression.

    the only difference is that we now longer have the levels to count our physical progression.

     

    Its the same thing. Thats what I am trying to get people to realise, thats We the players created the gap.

    I'm not sure I'm following what you're saying so excuse me if I'm wrong about it.  But it seems that you say that the gap between players isn't created by game mechanics.  That's silly.  A level 20 player in WoW is absolutely worthless in every way, shape, or form to a level 80 character.  There is no reason, by the game mechanics alone, for a level 80 player to be at all interested in hanging around a level 20 character.  The level 20 cannot help a level 80 at all, per game mechanics.  Sure there are social reasons, by I might as well use Skype or IM and not pay for some game.  Or post on a forum like this, which is pretty much what I do because I certainly don't play any MMO's right now.

    Darkfall sounds interesting but it's derisively called Gankall for a reason.  Using a statistical advantage to lord your might over other players who literally have no chance to put up a real contest is of no interest to me.  Plus the game looks like butt.

    To an extent, to an ICC/RS geared level 80... a fresh 80 might as well be level 1-79:  this may have been his point.  Not sure.

    It is a gear progression instead of a level progression.  From a fresh 80 to a geared 80, you are likely to double your stats.

    A key offering here would be: GearScore.  Bam!  Massive gap...

    I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?

    Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%

  • AcvivmAcvivm Austin, TXMember UncommonPosts: 323

    Originally posted by Garvon3


    Originally posted by Kyleran


    See DAOC back in its glory days..... End game problem was solved many years ago....

    Bingo. 

     

    Player generated content/dynamic expansive PvP is the way to go for end game. Or, design a game that doesn't end at all, like Darkfall. 

     

    The only MMOs struggling with "end game" are those based on the flawed EQ (and now WoW) model. 

    What these guys are stating works for me :).

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