What do you guys think about static bosses?

2

Comments

  • AmazingAveryAmazingAvery Age of Conan Advocate Member UncommonPosts: 7,039

    Originally posted by RobertDinh


    Originally posted by Rockgod99

    I honestly couldn't care less. As long as the encounter is fun why should I care if the damn thing stays in one place or zips around like a tornado?

    Well a lot of people like a more dynamic feel is all.  Also movement can be key to designing good encounters, if you eliminate the movement aspect you have essentially dumbed down the fight.

     Did you not see the spawns in what we have seen so far? Hardly Dumbed down..

    Like you said in the first post   "some" your basing conclusions off what a level 13 boss and the Shatter? way to judge whole game.



  • n3verendRn3verendR Ashland City, TNMember UncommonPosts: 452

    While I have no desire to carry out this discussion past this post I will tell you why your line of thought is wrong, in my opinion.

     

    All of the bosses you listed were broken, they were unbeatable without resorting to exploits as per the verdict of all the guys that were actually there doing it, hence blizzard nerfing the encounters so yes, technically they were unbeatable. Anyone who says otherwise is trolling, or penis sizing.

     

    However Yogg 0 was defeated by the fewest number of guilds of any boss pre-tournament (in this arguement, pre-patch actually) simply because the raid stacking had to be set a certain way with all gear inclusive. It was almost impossible to beat it before the enrage timer yet certain guilds like STARS were able to do so simply due to mathing out the encounter. The skill required to do so was not on as high a level as certain other bosses but the flawlessness required in the rotation was indeed the highest pinnacle in WoW to date. After the patch however, the gear became readily available and was doable without having to stack your raid a certain way.

    Yogg was a unique situation where no amount of gear, and no amount of add-ons could assist you in the defeat of the boss unless everyone was borderline perfect. An arguement no boss prior can make, especially in 40 man days where up to 10 people could perform average and still have success against bosses like yes, C'thun and Onyxia. I am definitely not talking about the Shadowpriest tanking days on Onyxia either.

     

    I'm going to act like you didn't suggest a guy you do not know wasn't around for "Vanilla raider days" and for that matter the period after it. With that in mind, please don't fixate an entire post in the topic "Static Bosses" on telling me how it was harder back in the old days...

    I was a VP raider in EQ before I quit the game (Pre-luclin) and was the second SK on my server to get my epic, on top of which was a part of a top tier raiding guild in WoW from BC on out. The guild I was a part of described in detail about encounters in Vanilla, and they held various world firsts at the time. So right now it's your word over theirs, and I am going to without question take theirs.

     

    Back to the topic, static bosses are fine - World bosses have historically been easy any ways (The Shatterer), if they can increase their fun factor by making them static for at least 9/10 people which seems to be the case at least in this post then they are absolutely doing the right thing.

     

    Good day to you sir.

    And the bottom line is concerning raid encounters, difficulty is in the eye of the beholder when it comes to variance concerning individual raid members against certain raid bosses. Just because someone was indeed part of a raid encounter, doesn't mean they were one of the carrys.

    People think it's fun to pretend your a monster. Me I spend my life pretending I'm not. - Dexter Morgan

  • djazzydjazzy louisville, COMember Posts: 3,578

    Originally posted by RobertDinh


    Originally posted by arenasb


    Originally posted by RobertDinh


    Originally posted by arenasb

    The big bosses like the Shatterer don't move much that is true. The broodmother moved around quite a bit though. Anyway, static bosses is pretty much the norm for mmos though.

    I don't know how that is possible when WoW and EQ1 probably the most impactful MMOs in the history of MMOs both had no such limitations. 

     I can't answer for EQ1 but I can for WoW (up to ICC anyway). The bosses there were very static, you are kidding yourself. Now there were gimics part of the raids that required movement from the players but that is not what you are refering to. Almost all of the bosses there looked the same as the Shatterer in regards to boss movement.

     

    This is simply incorrect, a lot of boss fights in WoW from vanilla on involve moving the boss around and positioning it certain ways. 

     

    Um, I played wow for over 5 years and have raided all pre ICC content. Positioning a boss is not the same thing as you are talking about. The bosses have limited movement, while not immobile as the shatterer appeared to be it was pretty darn static. Unless you mixing player movement in there. Yes, it has a lot of player movement as you to stay out of the fire, pretty elementary stuff.

    When I think of a non static fight I think of the boss constantly moving to different targets, doing different things such as flying up and such. Other than different phases of fights where you have to learn the gimmick, please point out a fight in WoW where the boss actually moved on its own.

  • djazzydjazzy louisville, COMember Posts: 3,578

    Originally posted by AmazingAvery


    Originally posted by RobertDinh


    Originally posted by Rockgod99

    I honestly couldn't care less. As long as the encounter is fun why should I care if the damn thing stays in one place or zips around like a tornado?

    Well a lot of people like a more dynamic feel is all.  Also movement can be key to designing good encounters, if you eliminate the movement aspect you have essentially dumbed down the fight.

     Did you not see the spawns in what we have seen so far? Hardly Dumbed down..

    Like you said in the first post   "some" your basing conclusions off what a level 13 boss and the Shatter? way to judge whole game.

     Welcome to Roberts world.

  • AmazingAveryAmazingAvery Age of Conan Advocate Member UncommonPosts: 7,039

    Originally posted by arenasb


    Originally posted by AmazingAvery



    Originally posted by RobertDinh



    Originally posted by Rockgod99

    I honestly couldn't care less. As long as the encounter is fun why should I care if the damn thing stays in one place or zips around like a tornado?

    Well a lot of people like a more dynamic feel is all.  Also movement can be key to designing good encounters, if you eliminate the movement aspect you have essentially dumbed down the fight.

     Did you not see the spawns in what we have seen so far? Hardly Dumbed down..

    Like you said in the first post   "some" your basing conclusions off what a level 13 boss and the Shatter? way to judge whole game.

     Welcome to Roberts world.

     Oh look:  http://www.guildwars2guru.com/forum/gigantic-but-static-what-weve-t10435.html



  • Garvon3Garvon3 Worcester, MAMember Posts: 2,898

    Originally posted by KillHurt

    Let's see, they already take up the entire screen.  It would be incredibly hard to have them moving around and going crazy with the type of game they are trying to make available to different types of computers seeing as something that large moving around all the time would just slow down the game, probably tremendously.  If I was a giant dragon the size of a small city, I wouldn't worry about flying around too much. 

    That's not very accurate. It takes just as much computational power to render a big mob as a small one, server side. And player side, if the computer can run with the monster in one place, it'll run just as well with the mob moving in another place. 

     

    The truth of the matter? Why can games like EQ have roaming mobs and modern ones can't? Same reason why DAoC can have 500 man battles with naval combat, castles, every siege weapon imaginable, and modern MMOs can't handle 20 people together. The genre is moving backwards. 

  • HepisodicHepisodic Tuckahoe, NYMember Posts: 328

    Originally posted by Rockgod99

    I honestly couldn't care less. As long as the encounter is fun why should I care if the damn thing stays in one place or zips around like a tornado?

    Exactly... all that matters is if the encounter is fun and can be repeated without speedy boredom. I've raided many bosses that just stood in one place and others that moved all over the zone. In my experience, most of the hardest raid bosses were the ones that never moved.

    Veritas Vos Liberabit- The truth will set you free.

  • PreponerancePreponerance Houston, TXMember Posts: 295

    Atleast with it being static I don't have to face a wall or pull it in some corner where I have to stare at the lovely textures on the wall, or it's 3d innards while the rest of the group looks at it's ass.

  • greenbow54greenbow54 Omaha, NEMember UncommonPosts: 127

    yogg-0 was static and it was easily the most challenging and rewarding boss that I've done so far in my time playing MMOs. A static boss done well is better than a dynamic boss done averagely.

    That being said, I'm pretty sure GW2s devs will have put dynamic bosses in the game, this was just one instance that we saw where the boss was static. Regardless, the fight looked freaking sweet and I can't wait for this game to come out. The amount of polish that is already in the game is astounding.

    image

  • ZarkanarZarkanar Cleveland, OHMember Posts: 55

    Oh no, a boss that can't move during the encounter! Seriously, most people probably wouldn't have even noticed if this guy didn't point it out; I know I certainly didn't notice The Shatterer not being mobile.

    Some of you people are making it seem like NO ENEMIES WILL EVER MOVE, and that's not true at all, it's just an encounter on an epic scale, with a boss that big, he can't just jump around everywhere and have things look the way they should. Sounds like the trolls are trying to find ways at the game already, despite the fact other hugely popular MMOs have some static bosses, even with advanced physics/kinetics.

    Find something that actually affects the game if you're gonna complain.

    ------------------------
    Everyone on this site:
    1: MMORPGs are DOOMED, and I have the answers to save them!
    2: THIS game's gonna kill WoW!
    3: I wish things would go back to the Golden Age of MMORPGs, which only existed in my mind...

  • MMO.MaverickMMO.Maverick WonderlandMember CommonPosts: 7,619

    Originally posted by Garvon3



     The truth of the matter? Why can games like EQ have roaming mobs and modern ones can't? Same reason why DAoC can have 500 man battles with naval combat, castles, every siege weapon imaginable, and modern MMOs can't handle 20 people together. The genre is moving backwards. 

    Bit of a delusion.

    GW2 has roaming mobs. What the Shatterer dragon did, flying entrance, flying up again, hovering, was certainly not in EQ.

    Besides that, GW2 will have massive battles in its world vs world pvp, and if you find dynamic content a move backwards then maybe MMORPG's just aren't your genre or taste anymore. 

    The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's

    The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
    Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."

  • ZarkanarZarkanar Cleveland, OHMember Posts: 55

    Originally posted by Garvon3

     
    The truth of the matter? Why can games like EQ have roaming mobs and modern ones can't? Same reason why DAoC can have 500 man battles with naval combat, castles, every siege weapon imaginable, and modern MMOs can't handle 20 people together. The genre is moving backwards. 

    No, the genre is deciding what's necessary for a good game and a fun experience, and that differs from person to person. If every game had siege weapons I would hate it, because once WoW added them it seemed like I was NEVER my character anymore. If every game tried to have everything the other one had, nothing would be quality, it would just be quantity. Some realism HAS to be sacrificed for an engaging experience, reality does NOT make for good fantasy, that's why it's fantasy.

    Seriously, most people probably wouldn't have even noticed if this guy didn't point it out; I know I certainly didn't notice The Shatterer not being mobile. Some of you people are making it seem like NO ENEMIES WILL EVER MOVE, and that's not true at all, it's just an encounter on an epic scale, with a boss that big, he can't just jump around everywhere and have things look the way they should.

    Sounds like the trolls are trying to find ways at the game already, despite the fact other hugely popular MMOs have some static bosses, even with advanced physics/kinetics. Find something that actually affects the game if you're gonna complain.

    ------------------------
    Everyone on this site:
    1: MMORPGs are DOOMED, and I have the answers to save them!
    2: THIS game's gonna kill WoW!
    3: I wish things would go back to the Golden Age of MMORPGs, which only existed in my mind...

  • tddavistddavis Murray, UTMember Posts: 159

    Originally posted by cyphers

    There has already been mention of large boss type creatures moving around. I think it was in the examples of a player finding some treasure in a distant spot causing to release a boss creature that starts roaming and terrorizing the area.
     
    I doubt whether those moving boss creatures will be as large as the Shatterer dragon, although it's hard to say for sure right now. The Shatterer dragon was without a doubt though the most impressive dragon performance to be seen in a MMORPG, and I'm counting EQ, EQ2 and WOW among them. Definitely something that you didn't see happen in the older MMORPG's, the way the dragon made its entrance and left.

    than you will like the fact that shatter is not even an elder dragon. comparing shatter to an elder dragon they said is like comparing the size of a mouse to a lion. the dragons get MUCH bigger time you get to endgame and fight elders supposedly.

    I am sure the first time we see an elder dragon everyone is going to say "WTF?"

  • RobertDinhRobertDinh bothell, WAMember Posts: 647

    Originally posted by Reizlanzer

    While I have no desire to carry out this discussion past this post I will tell you why your line of thought is wrong, in my opinion.
     
    All of the bosses you listed were broken, they were unbeatable without resorting to exploits as per the verdict of all the guys that were actually there doing it, hence blizzard nerfing the encounters so yes, technically they were unbeatable. Anyone who says otherwise is trolling, or penis sizing.
     
    However Yogg 0 was defeated by the fewest number of guilds of any boss pre-tournament (in this arguement, pre-patch actually) simply because the raid stacking had to be set a certain way with all gear inclusive. It was almost impossible to beat it before the enrage timer yet certain guilds like STARS were able to do so simply due to mathing out the encounter. The skill required to do so was not on as high a level as certain other bosses but the flawlessness required in the rotation was indeed the highest pinnacle in WoW to date. After the patch however, the gear became readily available and was doable without having to stack your raid a certain way.
    Yogg was a unique situation where no amount of gear, and no amount of add-ons could assist you in the defeat of the boss unless everyone was borderline perfect. An arguement no boss prior can make, especially in 40 man days where up to 10 people could perform average and still have success against bosses like yes, C'thun and Onyxia. I am definitely not talking about the Shadowpriest tanking days on Onyxia either.
     
    I'm going to act like you didn't suggest a guy you do not know wasn't around for "Vanilla raider days" and for that matter the period after it. With that in mind, please don't fixate an entire post in the topic "Static Bosses" on telling me how it was harder back in the old days...
    I was a VP raider in EQ before I quit the game (Pre-luclin) and was the second SK on my server to get my epic, on top of which was a part of a top tier raiding guild in WoW from BC on out. The guild I was a part of described in detail about encounters in Vanilla, and they held various world firsts at the time. So right now it's your word over theirs, and I am going to without question take theirs.
     
    Back to the topic, static bosses are fine - World bosses have historically been easy any ways (The Shatterer), if they can increase their fun factor by making them static for at least 9/10 people which seems to be the case at least in this post then they are absolutely doing the right thing.
     
    Good day to you sir.
    And the bottom line is concerning raid encounters, difficulty is in the eye of the beholder when it comes to variance concerning individual raid members against certain raid bosses. Just because someone was indeed part of a raid encounter, doesn't mean they were one of the carrys.

    I wish you didn't just conjure up inaccurate information about yogg+0.

    I also wish your vanilla raiding experience was actually your own instead of "omg descriptions from my guildmates", that way you might have some credibility. 

    You also misrepresent the yogg+0 fight, the guilds that played 8hours a day farmed up ulduar faster, and prepared themselves for yogg+0. 

    The guilds that raided significantly less were still catching up in gear when TOTC was announced.  Once this is announced guilds stop trying to raid because they know they can 1.  Get better gear in the next raid instance, 2.  They can farm anything they hadn't completed in old raid instances once they get better gear.  That's the only reason you didn't see yogg+0 down by more people pre-totc, because totc came out too quickly for the guilds that didn't raid every day.  Now you can say gear didn't matter, but gear always matters in WOW for progression raiding.  Some guilds can down content faster than others with less gear, because they are a better raiding guild, but generally all content in the game is pretty trivial if you've farmed all the possible gear before the encounter.  Every bit of gear in wow is efficiency.  It's more TPS, HPS, DPS, avoidance, regen, etc.  An experienced raider with a good grasp on raid mechanics would understand this easily.

    The fact that you are so misinformed about wow, and have no hardcore raiding experience in vanilla yourself, leads me to believe you weren't a hardcore EQ raider.  An EQ raider that was in a top progression raiding guild would not misunderstand the dynamics of WOW as grossly as you have, because WOW compared to EQ is like child's play and easy to grasp. 

     


    Originally posted by cyphers


    Originally posted by Garvon3




     The truth of the matter? Why can games like EQ have roaming mobs and modern ones can't? Same reason why DAoC can have 500 man battles with naval combat, castles, every siege weapon imaginable, and modern MMOs can't handle 20 people together. The genre is moving backwards. 

    Bit of a delusion.

    GW2 has roaming mobs. What the Shatterer dragon did, flying entrance, flying up again, hovering, was certainly not in EQ.

    Besides that, GW2 will have massive battles in its world vs world pvp, and if you find dynamic content a move backwards then maybe MMORPG's just aren't your genre or taste anymore. 

    His statements are slightly exaggerated but the bottom line is this.  Anet has basically perpetuated the concept that they are that mmo dev that will go the extra mile, and won't cut corners at the cost of being less innovative.  Yet here they are with stationary world boss encounters, and no raid instances.

    The game has neat features, but sometimes they just blatantly contradict what they state and the fans just gobble it up regardless.  I have a feeling a lot of that is because of being biased + because they don't have a lot of mmorpg experience so they don't understand that yes there are games out there (the most popular mmos of their time) that do not just have static boss fights just because the boss is large in size. 

     


    Originally posted by AmazingAvery


    Originally posted by arenasb



    Originally posted by AmazingAvery



    Originally posted by RobertDinh



    Originally posted by Rockgod99

    I honestly couldn't care less. As long as the encounter is fun why should I care if the damn thing stays in one place or zips around like a tornado?

    Well a lot of people like a more dynamic feel is all.  Also movement can be key to designing good encounters, if you eliminate the movement aspect you have essentially dumbed down the fight.

     Did you not see the spawns in what we have seen so far? Hardly Dumbed down..

    Like you said in the first post   "some" your basing conclusions off what a level 13 boss and the Shatter? way to judge whole game.

     Welcome to Roberts world.

     Oh look:  http://www.guildwars2guru.com/forum/gigantic-but-static-what-weve-t10435.html

    GW2guru isn't the best place to go for objective discussion about GW2.  It's also not safe because the admins go on tilt and stalk you via private information. 

  • MMO.MaverickMMO.Maverick WonderlandMember CommonPosts: 7,619

    Originally posted by RobertDinh



    His statements are slightly exaggerated but the bottom line is this.  Anet has basically perpetuated the concept that they are that mmo dev that will go the extra mile, and won't cut corners at the cost of being less innovative.  Yet here they are with stationary world boss encounters, and no raid instances.

    There are several flaws in your line of reasoning, namely the following:

    - the fact that they've stated their intent to go the extra mile, doesn't mean that this will be the case for all the features and aspects that an MMORPG has. Compared with other MMORPG's one can certainly say that for a number of features they have gone the extra mile, farther than those other MMORPG's went.

    - you mention the Shatterer dragon as an example, seeing a horse for the 1st time and it being a black horse, doesn't mean that horses are black. As in, no conclusion can be drawn that all boss encounters will be like you state 'static', in fact their statements about roaming bosses already point towards the contrary.

    - other older MMORPG's definitely had a lot of static bosses. The fact that some MMORPG's had some dynamic boss mobs, didn't mean that this was the case for the majority.

    - if you want to talk innovative, opting for no raidsize instances is a clear break with the recent MMO past.

    The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's

    The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
    Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."

  • therez0therez0 Ridgecrest, CAMember Posts: 379



    Originally posted by RobertDinh
    ...Snip
    His statements are slightly exaggerated but the bottom line is this.  Anet has basically perpetuated the concept that they are that mmo dev that will go the extra mile, and won't cut corners at the cost of being less innovative.  Yet here they are with stationary world boss encounters, and no raid instances.
    The game has neat features, but sometimes they just blatantly contradict what they state and the fans just gobble it up regardless.  I have a feeling a lot of that is because of being biased + because they don't have a lot of mmorpg experience so they don't understand that yes there are games out there (the most popular mmos of their time) that do not just have static boss fights just because the boss is large in size. 

    You are perpetuating misinformation, and I would like you to please stop.


    You point to the Shatterer example and are misrepresenting a quote about the limitations of the movement of that boss. The phrase "are limited by the game engine for the range of movement" is the quote I believe you are referring to. You have misconstrued this into 'bosses don't move'--that is not what it means. It means, in this particular instance, that moving this particular boss interferes with some other portion of the game engine. Probably, having the boss move would break subsequent and linked dynamic events--particularly an event where you escort workers to build turrets to assist in defeating the Shatterer; such event would require the boss to be in a semi-fixed location in order for the event to have any meaning.

    Further, Anet has said that there are events that spawn roaming bosses, the area the boss roams is limited to a particular map, but as we learned from an interview, maps are quite large.

    Now I'm just nit-picking this, but the Shatterer is not a 'world boss', but is a dynamic event boss spawned in a particular map in the world. The world boss is Zhaitan.


    Unless you can factually back up your claims of Anet 'blatantly contradicting themselves' with actual quotes and sources--and not some construction of the quote out of context, or loose interpretation--I would suggest you refrain from making conclusions about the company and spreading them as if fact. You can make conclusions and you can state an opinion, but don't masquerade you opinions as facts--that constitutes libel in some states.



    Originally posted by RobertDinh GW2guru isn't the best place to go for objective discussion about GW2.  It's also not safe because the admins go on tilt and stalk you via private information. 


    This I can actually agree with... The folks at guru have been very flippant with private information, in my experience. Early on with the original GWGuru, the owners sold my email info to Ad companies--and I know it was them for a fact since I used a particular disposable email address/account name combo. And when I posted about their breach of privacy policy, my account got banned.

  • n3verendRn3verendR Ashland City, TNMember UncommonPosts: 452

    The guy obviously looks for any way to stir the pot. I just tested it with my last post in fact, theory confirmed.

    If I knew my words were going to be so violently taken out of context, I never would have began a conversation with you. You obviously are unable to be objective in any way except to your own means, any thing that challenges your line of thought is a big no no I suppose.

    Let Dinh live in his world. He is the kind of guy that will exclaim that if he was there, you couldn't have possibly been there and all information you have regarding the subject is null. If you don't agree with him, you are likely closed minded and rather simple. It doesn't matter that you are a better gamer than he, because in fact - he needs that kind of mental reinforcement to live vicariously through his avatars. At this point, I no longer care that RobertDinh is going to be playing GW2.

    Before, I was looking forward to competing with him but am now convinced that I will be severely dissappointed. Fact is, we are all speaking to a guy that allegedly went and played the demo in seattle and thought it was mediocre and mostly uninteresting yet still trolls these forums looking for a way to patch his mysteriously broken ego.

     

    It was such a good topic too.

    People think it's fun to pretend your a monster. Me I spend my life pretending I'm not. - Dexter Morgan

  • MumboJumboMumboJumbo LondonMember UncommonPosts: 3,219

    I'm a little concerned the bosses feel a touch static, if I'm be honest. So I agree, the topic raised is interesting, however I'd not throw the baby out with the bathwater, either on this particular detail, either!

    1. We only have a small sample of Earth Elemental, Brood Mother, Shadow Behemoth and The Shatterer. The Brood Mother does move around and looks super fun to play against too. The Earth Elemental is a level 1 boss and huge and static and that makes sense for that one. So we are only talking about the Shadow Behemoth and The Shatterer and the "Shatner" does do a sort of hovering thing doesn't it as well as looking very cool and scaling some interesting attacks (all on easy mode).

    2. ArenaNet are keeping some promising: Awesome bosses from the start eg Earth Elemental; Awesome visuals; Mass player combat; final links in the Dynamic Events chains, Environmental weapons etc etc.

    These details are not to be an apologist for ArenaNet, the criticism or concern is valid up to a point and more variety of bosses big and small etc and that applies to not all being static, either is needed. I'm more concerned the challenge of these big bosses will be satisfying and enjoyable to repeat a good number of times. To say anything more is extrapolating that the Engine cannot handle large bosses moving = no large bosses will move. I am wondering if I also heard that quote about the engine limitations also? Can't remember... and will we see less static bosses too?

  • Garvon3Garvon3 Worcester, MAMember Posts: 2,898

    Originally posted by Zarkanar


    Originally posted by Garvon3


     
    The truth of the matter? Why can games like EQ have roaming mobs and modern ones can't? Same reason why DAoC can have 500 man battles with naval combat, castles, every siege weapon imaginable, and modern MMOs can't handle 20 people together. The genre is moving backwards. 

    No, the genre is deciding what's necessary for a good game and a fun experience, and that differs from person to person. If every game had siege weapons I would hate it, because once WoW added them it seemed like I was NEVER my character anymore. That's because WoW did them poorly, like they do most things. If every game tried to have everything the other one had, nothing would be quality, it would just be quantity but as of now, we get neither quality or quantity, if a dev group of 30 people can make something like DAoC then the 100 man dev groups nowadays should be able to at least reach its shadow . Some realism HAS to be sacrificed for an engaging experience, reality does NOT make for good fantasy, that's why it's fantasy where did that come from?.

     

  • QuirhidQuirhid TampereMember UncommonPosts: 6,230

    Originally posted by Garvon3


    Originally posted by Zarkanar



    Originally posted by Garvon3


     
    The truth of the matter? Why can games like EQ have roaming mobs and modern ones can't? Same reason why DAoC can have 500 man battles with naval combat, castles, every siege weapon imaginable, and modern MMOs can't handle 20 people together. The genre is moving backwards. 

    No, the genre is deciding what's necessary for a good game and a fun experience, and that differs from person to person. If every game had siege weapons I would hate it, because once WoW added them it seemed like I was NEVER my character anymore. That's because WoW did them poorly, like they do most things. If every game tried to have everything the other one had, nothing would be quality, it would just be quantity but as of now, we get neither quality or quantity, if a dev group of 30 people can make something like DAoC then the 100 man dev groups nowadays should be able to at least reach its shadow . Some realism HAS to be sacrificed for an engaging experience, reality does NOT make for good fantasy, that's why it's fantasy where did that come from?.

     

    500 man battles are anything but tactical and Anet was all for tacical combat when making Guild Wars 1. Sure, their target audience is larger this time around but I don't think they'd want to move too far from what made GW1 so succesful (tactical combat). You have to make sure that everyone participating in the battle feel that they are contributing. You want to make sure that every one has a fun and fulfilling experience.

    I've seen plenty of big battles in Eve and WAR to say this. More is not better. In the case of WAR: the scenarios were vastly more fun than the RvR. In Eve, the bigger the battle gets, the less fun you'll have. A single player loses his meaningfulness.

    I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  • Elox1Elox1 Kamloops, BCMember Posts: 211

    I think a mix of static and non-static bosses would be ideal.  I can see with the shatterer why he was static given the linked missions regarding the siege equipment and such.  I'm not sure I saw the Brood Mother that was mentioned, but it sounds like that encounter was not static.

    At the end of day as long as the encounters are engaging and fun then I leave the implementation to the devs.

  • MorcotulconMorcotulcon LisbonMember UncommonPosts: 262

    There's an interview with Martin Kerstein. Here: http://guildwars-forum.onlinewelten....86&postcount=2

     

    In this interview, translated to English in GuildWars2Guru.com, There's a question about this concern:

    4) Are all bosses static? The shatterer did not move a single inch.

    A: In a previous part of the event the shatterer is flying, but for the demo we wanted players to see the ground-fight. We will look into how much he can move while on the ground, but the engine has its restrictions.

     

    My understanding: they know about that issue and will try to get more movement while fighting on the ground. And I got the feeling that there might have more other kinds of fighting, like when the Shaterer is flying from a low height, they might just don't have that ready for the demo and just showed how to fight him when he's on the ground in that place.

  • RobertDinhRobertDinh bothell, WAMember Posts: 647

    Originally posted by therez0

     




    Originally posted by RobertDinh

    ...Snip

    His statements are slightly exaggerated but the bottom line is this.  Anet has basically perpetuated the concept that they are that mmo dev that will go the extra mile, and won't cut corners at the cost of being less innovative.  Yet here they are with stationary world boss encounters, and no raid instances.

    The game has neat features, but sometimes they just blatantly contradict what they state and the fans just gobble it up regardless.  I have a feeling a lot of that is because of being biased + because they don't have a lot of mmorpg experience so they don't understand that yes there are games out there (the most popular mmos of their time) that do not just have static boss fights just because the boss is large in size. 


    You are perpetuating misinformation, and I would like you to please stop.



    You point to the Shatterer example and are misrepresenting a quote about the limitations of the movement of that boss. The phrase "are limited by the game engine for the range of movement" is the quote I believe you are referring to. You have misconstrued this into 'bosses don't move'--that is not what it means. It means, in this particular instance, that moving this particular boss interferes with some other portion of the game engine. Probably, having the boss move would break subsequent and linked dynamic events--particularly an event where you escort workers to build turrets to assist in defeating the Shatterer; such event would require the boss to be in a semi-fixed location in order for the event to have any meaning.

    Further, Anet has said that there are events that spawn roaming bosses, the area the boss roams is limited to a particular map, but as we learned from an interview, maps are quite large.

    Now I'm just nit-picking this, but the Shatterer is not a 'world boss', but is a dynamic event boss spawned in a particular map in the world. The world boss is Zhaitan.



    Unless you can factually back up your claims of Anet 'blatantly contradicting themselves' with actual quotes and sources--and not some construction of the quote out of context, or loose interpretation--I would suggest you refrain from making conclusions about the company and spreading them as if fact. You can make conclusions and you can state an opinion, but don't masquerade you opinions as facts--that constitutes libel in some states.

     

     






    Originally posted by RobertDinh
    GW2guru isn't the best place to go for objective discussion about GW2.  It's also not safe because the admins go on tilt and stalk you via private information. 



    This I can actually agree with... The folks at guru have been very flippant with private information, in my experience. Early on with the original GWGuru, the owners sold my email info to Ad companies--and I know it was them for a fact since I used a particular disposable email address/account name combo. And when I posted about their breach of privacy policy, my account got banned.

    To your first block... the most apparent example of them contradicting themselves is the manifesto. 

    Remember that part where they talk about how other games have centaurs or ogres or w/e sitting in a field when the quest giver claims they are ravaging a village?  Well what did the manifesto show you, they showed you centaurs running past random buildings and those buildings just magically exploding.  That is not going the extra mile, you aren't seeing the centaurs set up a way to blow up or chop down a bridge, they just run past a scripted tripwire and the bridge just blows up. 

    A company that is motivated on going the extra mile would take the time and effort to script those centaurs to go actually destroy things, not just magically have things blow up when they run nearby.

     

    To your second block, yea MMORPG.com has been around longer and is much more trusted than gwguru.  On mmorpg.com you can trust the admins to never use your private information for personal vendettas or personal gain.

  • Rockgod99Rockgod99 Manhatten, NYMember Posts: 4,640
    Originally posted by Preponerance

    Atleast with it being static I don't have to face a wall or pull it in some corner where I have to stare at the lovely textures on the wall, or it's 3d innards while the rest of the group looks at it's ass.

     

    LOL!!!!! To this very day I don't know what ony looks like during battle. I remember a wall and a big freaking toe nail lol!!!!!

    image

    Playing: Rift, LotRO
    Waiting on: GW2, BP

  • bazakbazak Warner robins, GAMember UncommonPosts: 283

    Originally posted by RobertDinh


    Originally posted by therez0


     




    Originally posted by RobertDinh

    ...Snip

    His statements are slightly exaggerated but the bottom line is this.  Anet has basically perpetuated the concept that they are that mmo dev that will go the extra mile, and won't cut corners at the cost of being less innovative.  Yet here they are with stationary world boss encounters, and no raid instances.

    The game has neat features, but sometimes they just blatantly contradict what they state and the fans just gobble it up regardless.  I have a feeling a lot of that is because of being biased + because they don't have a lot of mmorpg experience so they don't understand that yes there are games out there (the most popular mmos of their time) that do not just have static boss fights just because the boss is large in size. 


    You are perpetuating misinformation, and I would like you to please stop.



    You point to the Shatterer example and are misrepresenting a quote about the limitations of the movement of that boss. The phrase "are limited by the game engine for the range of movement" is the quote I believe you are referring to. You have misconstrued this into 'bosses don't move'--that is not what it means. It means, in this particular instance, that moving this particular boss interferes with some other portion of the game engine. Probably, having the boss move would break subsequent and linked dynamic events--particularly an event where you escort workers to build turrets to assist in defeating the Shatterer; such event would require the boss to be in a semi-fixed location in order for the event to have any meaning.

    Further, Anet has said that there are events that spawn roaming bosses, the area the boss roams is limited to a particular map, but as we learned from an interview, maps are quite large.

    Now I'm just nit-picking this, but the Shatterer is not a 'world boss', but is a dynamic event boss spawned in a particular map in the world. The world boss is Zhaitan.



    Unless you can factually back up your claims of Anet 'blatantly contradicting themselves' with actual quotes and sources--and not some construction of the quote out of context, or loose interpretation--I would suggest you refrain from making conclusions about the company and spreading them as if fact. You can make conclusions and you can state an opinion, but don't masquerade you opinions as facts--that constitutes libel in some states.

     

     






    Originally posted by RobertDinh
    GW2guru isn't the best place to go for objective discussion about GW2.  It's also not safe because the admins go on tilt and stalk you via private information. 



    This I can actually agree with... The folks at guru have been very flippant with private information, in my experience. Early on with the original GWGuru, the owners sold my email info to Ad companies--and I know it was them for a fact since I used a particular disposable email address/account name combo. And when I posted about their breach of privacy policy, my account got banned.

    To your first block... the most apparent example of them contradicting themselves is the manifesto. 

    Remember that part where they talk about how other games have centaurs or ogres or w/e sitting in a field when the quest giver claims they are ravaging a village?  Well what did the manifesto show you, they showed you centaurs running past random buildings and those buildings just magically exploding.  That is not going the extra mile, you aren't seeing the centaurs set up a way to blow up or chop down a bridge, they just run past a scripted tripwire and the bridge just blows up. 

    A company that is motivated on going the extra mile would take the time and effort to script those centaurs to go actually destroy things, not just magically have things blow up when they run nearby.

     

    To your second block, yea MMORPG.com has been around longer and is much more trusted than gwguru.  On mmorpg.com you can trust the admins to never use your private information for personal vendettas or personal gain.

    bit of a problem with this i went and checked a lot of the time during the second explosions (first explosions are already happening when video starts and the centaurs are already past it) and a good 3 or so centaurs are blocked enough that you cant realy tell if they are doing anything (not saying that you definatly arent right but im gonna wait till the game comes out and i can see for myself without anything blocking my view if your opinion is indeed the correct one) *could be explosive arrows from the centaur with a bow but is just an idea and not remotely fact*

     

    aside from that if the centaurs werent there there wouldnt be explosions so even if they are just passing a scripted trigger its still being caused by their presence and therefore they are ravaging those water pipes pretty badly (aside from that using the word magically exploding in your argument isnt a good idea considering the magical sort of setting in this game world who knows what is off screen).

    (and if you are right lets not argue semantics about whether or not the centaurs are actualy ravaging a village because by your own admittance they tripped a script which caused the destruction of those pipes. combine all that together and assumeing im somehow magicly wrong and my logic is flawed its still a whole hell of a lot better than current mmo standards for this sort of thing)

     

    *is now ready for the objectivity bomb to get dropped in its usual dud like puff of smoke*

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