What do you guys think about static bosses?

RobertDinhRobertDinh bothell, WAMember Posts: 647

What do you guys think about the fact that some of the big outdoor bosses can't seem to move? 

 

I think for a game that is supposed to be innovative and push the envelope it is a pretty silly limitation for a game coming out in 2012. 

 

I don't understand why games like EQ1 from a decade ago can have big bosses that can move around, but GW2 can't? 

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Comments

  • KillHurtKillHurt Dallas, CAMember Posts: 347

    Let's see, they already take up the entire screen.  It would be incredibly hard to have them moving around and going crazy with the type of game they are trying to make available to different types of computers seeing as something that large moving around all the time would just slow down the game, probably tremendously.  If I was a giant dragon the size of a small city, I wouldn't worry about flying around too much. 

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  • KillHurtKillHurt Dallas, CAMember Posts: 347

    Originally posted by RobertDinh

     
     
    coming out in 2012. 
     
     

    And I doubt it will be 2012, but it certainly won't be for awhile judging by the profession reveal rate.

    image

  • OmgZombiesOmgZombies Collegeville, PAMember Posts: 141

    Originally posted by RobertDinh

    What do you guys think about the fact that some of the big outdoor bosses can't seem to move? 
     
    I think for a game that is supposed to be innovative and push the envelope it is a pretty silly limitation for a game coming out in 2012. 
     
    I don't understand why games like EQ1 from a decade ago can have big bosses that can move around, but GW2 can't? 

    If you're referring to the shatterer, it's there because you need to the surrounding environment to take it out, like mortars and such.  Making it move around might not even be worth it, since bosses as big as the shatterer are only around for like 15-30 minutes, as they're spawned by preceding events, instead of just roaming world bosses.  There'll be many large bosses that move around and chase players, also.

  • RobertDinhRobertDinh bothell, WAMember Posts: 647

    Originally posted by OmgZombies


    Originally posted by RobertDinh


    What do you guys think about the fact that some of the big outdoor bosses can't seem to move? 
     
    I think for a game that is supposed to be innovative and push the envelope it is a pretty silly limitation for a game coming out in 2012. 
     
    I don't understand why games like EQ1 from a decade ago can have big bosses that can move around, but GW2 can't? 

    If you're referring to the shatterer, it's there because you need to the surrounding environment to take it out, like mortars and such.  Making it move around might not even be worth it, since bosses as big as the shatterer are only around for like 15-30 minutes, as they're spawned by preceding events, instead of just roaming world bosses.  There'll be many large bosses that move around and chase players, also.

    That is incorrect they have already stated it is because of engine limitations.

  • dinamsdinams Muriae, VAMember Posts: 1,362

    Originally posted by RobertDinh

    What do you guys think about the fact that some of the big outdoor bosses can't seem to move? 
     
    I think for a game that is supposed to be innovative and push the envelope it is a pretty silly limitation for a game coming out in 2012. 
     
    I don't understand why games like EQ1 from a decade ago can have big bosses that can move around, but GW2 can't? 

    first its not coming out in 2012, not coming out soon, but heck, not 2012

    Second, the mechanics of that boss fight (including the behemoth) are not the usual thing you see (aggro in a single player), those bosses attack everything in their front not just one target, so how do you propose a boss that is not focusing in a single target to move around?

     

    PS: RobertDinh is here, objectiveness bombardment incoming!

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  • OmgZombiesOmgZombies Collegeville, PAMember Posts: 141

    Originally posted by RobertDinh


    Originally posted by OmgZombies



    Originally posted by RobertDinh


    What do you guys think about the fact that some of the big outdoor bosses can't seem to move? 
     
    I think for a game that is supposed to be innovative and push the envelope it is a pretty silly limitation for a game coming out in 2012. 
     
    I don't understand why games like EQ1 from a decade ago can have big bosses that can move around, but GW2 can't? 

    If you're referring to the shatterer, it's there because you need to the surrounding environment to take it out, like mortars and such.  Making it move around might not even be worth it, since bosses as big as the shatterer are only around for like 15-30 minutes, as they're spawned by preceding events, instead of just roaming world bosses.  There'll be many large bosses that move around and chase players, also.

    That is incorrect they have already stated it is because of engine limitations.

    My mistake then.  It'd probably be better to have it static anyway :P

  • djazzydjazzy louisville, COMember Posts: 3,578

    The big bosses like the Shatterer don't move much that is true. The broodmother moved around quite a bit though. Anyway, static bosses is pretty much the norm for mmos though.

  • RobertDinhRobertDinh bothell, WAMember Posts: 647

    Originally posted by arenasb

    The big bosses like the Shatterer don't move much that is true. The broodmother moved around quite a bit though. Anyway, static bosses is pretty much the norm for mmos though.

    I don't know how that is possible when WoW and EQ1 probably the most impactful MMOs in the history of MMOs both had no such limitations. 

  • MumboJumboMumboJumbo LondonMember UncommonPosts: 3,219

    I think some variation in the movement of bosses would be a good thing. Eg I always enjoyed working out the pattern of bosses in 2D platformer games or mario 3D eg. So MMOs that have static bosses are limiting themselves a fair bit in this way.

    However, more than this, I'd like big bosses to really be capable of wiping players! Bosses should strike fear/terror into people and be hard(er) to achieve/a serious threshold to advancement, is more important consideration for me however.

    As to GW2 bosses, specifically, I love the designs - they are incredibly imaginative and aesthetically awesome imo. This makes up for the above short-coming slightly as big bosses are also showpiece events sorta like a live action cinematic climax with lots of players creating a battle royale spectacle; if that's achieved that's satisfying too.

    Personally I've always preferred the crafy small boss to the big monster, who is full of tricks and troops!!

  • MMO.MaverickMMO.Maverick WonderlandMember CommonPosts: 7,619

    There has already been mention of large boss type creatures moving around. I think it was in the examples of a player finding some treasure in a distant spot causing to release a boss creature that starts roaming and terrorizing the area.

     

    I doubt whether those moving boss creatures will be as large as the Shatterer dragon, although it's hard to say for sure right now. The Shatterer dragon was without a doubt though the most impressive dragon performance to be seen in a MMORPG, and I'm counting EQ, EQ2 and WOW among them. Definitely something that you didn't see happen in the older MMORPG's, the way the dragon made its entrance and left.

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  • RobertDinhRobertDinh bothell, WAMember Posts: 647

    Originally posted by cyphers

    There has already been mention of large boss type creatures moving around. I think it was in the examples of a player finding some treasure in a distant spot causing to release a boss creature that starts roaming and terrorizing the area.
     
    I doubt whether those moving boss creatures will be as large as the Shatterer dragon, although it's hard to say for sure right now. The Shatterer dragon was without a doubt though the most impressive dragon performance to be seen in a MMORPG, and I'm counting EQ, EQ2 and WOW among them. Definitely something that you didn't see happen in the older MMORPG's, the way the dragon made its entrance and left.

    The difference is that the other games had some encounters that allowed for grand entrances, but also allowed for bosses that weren't static. 

    I personally feel like bosses that make grand entrances and can move around are better than bosses that can't move around. 

    When games become static the script starts to feel much more apparent.

  • Rockgod99Rockgod99 Manhatten, NYMember Posts: 4,640
    I honestly couldn't care less. As long as the encounter is fun why should I care if the damn thing stays in one place or zips around like a tornado?

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  • RobertDinhRobertDinh bothell, WAMember Posts: 647

    Originally posted by Rockgod99

    I honestly couldn't care less. As long as the encounter is fun why should I care if the damn thing stays in one place or zips around like a tornado?

    Well a lot of people like a more dynamic feel is all.  Also movement can be key to designing good encounters, if you eliminate the movement aspect you have essentially dumbed down the fight.

  • whilanwhilan Everett, WAMember UncommonPosts: 3,472

    Myself it depends on the boss.

    If it's a dragon, it should move.

    If it's a ground bound entity then it shouldn't.

    As long as it makes sense for it not to move then i'm okay with it. But if it should be moving and it's not merely because it decides not to move will bring down my feeling of that encounter.  So final thought if it makes sense for it to stand still then i'm okay with it. If it' suppose to move then i think it should move mechanics or no.

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  • Rockgod99Rockgod99 Manhatten, NYMember Posts: 4,640
    Originally posted by RobertDinh


    Originally posted by Rockgod99

    I honestly couldn't care less. As long as the encounter is fun why should I care if the damn thing stays in one place or zips around like a tornado?

    Well a lot of people like a more dynamic feel is all.  Also movement can be key to designing good encounters, if you eliminate the movement aspect you have essentially dumbed down the fight.

     

    Did you see that boss fight though? It's freaking awesome looking.

    image

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  • RobertDinhRobertDinh bothell, WAMember Posts: 647

    Originally posted by Rockgod99


    Originally posted by RobertDinh


    Originally posted by Rockgod99

    I honestly couldn't care less. As long as the encounter is fun why should I care if the damn thing stays in one place or zips around like a tornado?

    Well a lot of people like a more dynamic feel is all.  Also movement can be key to designing good encounters, if you eliminate the movement aspect you have essentially dumbed down the fight.

     

    Did you see that boss fight though? It's freaking awesome looking.

    Playing it felt too static and scripted.

  • djazzydjazzy louisville, COMember Posts: 3,578

    Originally posted by RobertDinh


    Originally posted by arenasb

    The big bosses like the Shatterer don't move much that is true. The broodmother moved around quite a bit though. Anyway, static bosses is pretty much the norm for mmos though.

    I don't know how that is possible when WoW and EQ1 probably the most impactful MMOs in the history of MMOs both had no such limitations. 

     I can't answer for EQ1 but I can for WoW (up to ICC anyway). The bosses there were very static, you are kidding yourself. Now there were gimics part of the raids that required movement from the players but that is not what you are refering to. Almost all of the bosses there looked the same as the Shatterer in regards to boss movement.

  • jfk35824jfk35824 Erie, PAMember Posts: 81

    The Shatterer does look pretty static.  Im ok with it, but i'd be happier if it would move around more.  Is this something that could happen eventually? Hell, if the technology can't handle it, then it can't.  I'd be happy to wait for some kool update say a year or two down the road where the flies up and lands more than once and moves around more...imagine...he flies in, lands, fights, then hops up and down periodically and *lands* on people with feet and tail, and *also* does all of the kool stuff we saw....

    Would such a thing be eventually possible?

  • n3verendRn3verendR Ashland City, TNMember UncommonPosts: 452

    Three things:

     

    1. Bosses in WoW are technically static, or at least in a best case scenario static. Yogg 0 was the hardest boss to date (if you are fighting it from a pre-tournament scenario) and he was completely static, the players were the ones moving and not Yogg. There are various other expamples of these same issues too. World bosses in WoW are (were...) also Static when you consider that the best way to tank them is where they spawn.

    2. There are no tanks, instead they open up things like PvE stunts I.E. evading attacks, "Tanking" with reflexive skill rather than armor and rotations. In this case, technically Static bosses are an upgrade over... let's say the Sleeper from EQ who was best tanked in the middle of the room and... Illidan who barely moved anyways after phase 1, oh and was also static during phase 2 (might I add, one of the most fun parts of the fight - as was the end boss of Sunwell)

    3. Who cares about the demo boss, he is a mid level boss encounter that is absolutely a blast for most people that is also based on official statement largely nerfed for the demo.

     

     

    So basically, no I don't think it's a bad thing in my opinion its been done for years with tanks - and I hate tanks.

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  • bazakbazak Warner robins, GAMember UncommonPosts: 283

    personaly as long as it doesnt break immersion too much im fine with it the dragon after having watched the video realy didnt have much of a need to move considering he was big enough to fill that valley they were in at least from side to side and could probably just walk over and lay down on the players to kill them anyways, so the dragon i think considering its static and is a moveable creature (unlike the shadow behemoth which is obviously bound to the ground in some way so that one makes sense) im fine with it. now i might have a bit of a problem if say they didnt have any bosses that moved around but they do so not so bad.

  • EvilGeekEvilGeek londonMember UncommonPosts: 1,243


    Originally posted by RobertDinh

    Originally posted by OmgZombies

    Originally posted by RobertDinh

    What do you guys think about the fact that some of the big outdoor bosses can't seem to move? 
     
    I think for a game that is supposed to be innovative and push the envelope it is a pretty silly limitation for a game coming out in 2012. 
     
    I don't understand why games like EQ1 from a decade ago can have big bosses that can move around, but GW2 can't? 
    If you're referring to the shatterer, it's there because you need to the surrounding environment to take it out, like mortars and such.  Making it move around might not even be worth it, since bosses as big as the shatterer are only around for like 15-30 minutes, as they're spawned by preceding events, instead of just roaming world bosses.  There'll be many large bosses that move around and chase players, also.


    That is incorrect they have already stated it is because of engine limitations.

    Can you provide a link about this info I haven't seen them talk about engine limitations?

    image
  • MMO.MaverickMMO.Maverick WonderlandMember CommonPosts: 7,619

    Originally posted by jfk35824

      I'd be happy to wait for some kool update say a year or two down the road where the flies up and lands more than once and moves around more...imagine...he flies in, lands, fights, then hops up and down periodically and *lands* on people with feet and tail, and *also* does all of the kool stuff we saw....
    Would such a thing be eventually possible?

    That already happened in the demo. In one of the videos you see him land, fight, fly up and hover, and land again to continue fighting. I didn't see an AoE knockdown effect but that isn't that hard to realise.

    The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's

    The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
    Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."

  • RobertDinhRobertDinh bothell, WAMember Posts: 647

    Originally posted by arenasb


    Originally posted by RobertDinh



    Originally posted by arenasb


    The big bosses like the Shatterer don't move much that is true. The broodmother moved around quite a bit though. Anyway, static bosses is pretty much the norm for mmos though.

    I don't know how that is possible when WoW and EQ1 probably the most impactful MMOs in the history of MMOs both had no such limitations. 

     I can't answer for EQ1 but I can for WoW (up to ICC anyway). The bosses there were very static, you are kidding yourself. Now there were gimics part of the raids that required movement from the players but that is not what you are refering to. Almost all of the bosses there looked the same as the Shatterer in regards to boss movement.

     

    This is simply incorrect, a lot of boss fights in WoW from vanilla on involve moving the boss around and positioning it certain ways. 

     


    Originally posted by Reizlanzer

    Three things:
     
    1. Bosses in WoW are technically static, or at least in a best case scenario static. Yogg 0 was the hardest boss to date (if you are fighting it from a pre-tournament scenario) and he was completely static, the players were the ones moving and not Yogg. There are various other expamples of these same issues too. World bosses in WoW are (were...) also Static when you consider that the best way to tank them is where they spawn.
    2. There are no tanks, instead they open up things like PvE stunts I.E. evading attacks, "Tanking" with reflexive skill rather than armor and rotations. In this case, technically Static bosses are an upgrade over... let's say the Sleeper from EQ who was best tanked in the middle of the room and... Illidan who barely moved anyways after phase 1, oh and was also static during phase 2 (might I add, one of the most fun parts of the fight - as was the end boss of Sunwell)
    3. Who cares about the demo boss, he is a mid level boss encounter that is absolutely a blast for most people that is also based on official statement largely nerfed for the demo.
     
     
    So basically, no I don't think it's a bad thing in my opinion its been done for years with tanks - and I hate tanks.

    This is inaccurate, there are some boss fights in WoW that are static, as in the boss comes out from the ground and doesn't move, but saying yogg + 0 was the hardest fight to date is an exaggeration.  It may have been the hardest in WoTLK up through ulduar, but it simply can not compare to certain vanilla fights in difficulty, like c'thun and onyxia pre-nerf for example. 

    Onyxia prenerf was probably the single hardest encounter to date, and I am not talking about the second nerf months after the first nerf, I am talking about the first nerf where she was at EQ level difficulty initially and then they realized only a handful of guilds could ever be capable of downing her like that. 

    Yogg+0 is way easier for many reasons, 1.  Addons have become more effective, 2. The game itself has become easier with less concern on mana conservation and overhealing because healing is way stronger than it should be in tbc and wotlk.  3.  Itemization was too lenient towards players in WoTLK relative to Vanilla. 

     

    People that were not in top level raiding guilds in eq and then onto wow, then tbc, then wotlk, can't really understand how easy the game has become, even the "hard modes" in wotlk are a breeze relative to top level progression raiding in vanilla.

  • FreeBooteRFreeBooteR Surrey, BCMember Posts: 333

    I could just imagine the level of griefing if these bosses could be kited around. I think they are fine the way they are. Most bosses in MMO's if not made static, have a limited area to move in and generally can't be used for griefing.

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  • RobertDinhRobertDinh bothell, WAMember Posts: 647

    Originally posted by FreeBooteR

    I could just imagine the level of griefing if these bosses could be kited around. I think they are fine the way they are. Most bosses in MMO's if not made static, have a limited area to move in and generally can't be used for griefing.

    Ya, I'm just used to games that can provide big epic bosses in the persistent world that aren't anchored to a location when you fight them.

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