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There is no true PvP

StizzledStizzled Springfield, MOPosts: 1,264Member Uncommon

I've seen it stated, again and again, that LotRO  has no 'true' pvp. Having played PvMP on both creeps and freeps i'm curious just what this means? How is pvp in LotRO really any different than say... Warhammer, or Aion, WoW, or any other themepark game?

 

I guess you could argue that Monster characters aren't full fledged toons, but there are people who have spent just as much time on their Monster toons as I have on my LM. They put up a damn good fight aswell, someone who is willing to spend the time on a Monster character is in no way gimped, not like they used to be.

 

Explain...


Comments

  • SgtFrogSgtFrog LondonPosts: 5,001Member

    Only 1 zone and has very little affect to the game.

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  • StizzledStizzled Springfield, MOPosts: 1,264Member Uncommon

    True, but it is a rather large zone, with many keeps, camps and several other points of interrest. It can also have an affect on the game, depending how you look at it. Through PvMP you can complete deeds, earn titles and ranks, and get gear.


  • trancejeremytrancejeremy St. Louis, MOPosts: 1,222Member

    Duh, they can't gank newbies.

     

    Like it or not, that's a pretty big component in PvP games. And while a newly made creep probably isn't that tough, it's more effort to kill than a level 6 hobbit would be

    R.I.P. City of Heroes and my 17 characters there

  • choujiofkonochoujiofkono no, OHPosts: 852Member

      PvP in most games is fun for about 15 minutes anyway.  I play AArma2, TF2, and those kinds of games for my gibfests.  I don't really see the point in PvP in MMO's to be honest.  They all boil down to the build of the month club or the "who's got the shiniest weapon" club.  There is no real skill in that kind of gameplay in my opinion.  It's like playing chess and telling the black side they can move an extra square every round.  Either way it's perpetually unbalanced.  PvP is only fun when you have the same amount of options as your opponent and you both have to choose what you do with them.  PvP rebalancing pretty much destroys the fun and immersion of an MMO by making the PvE experience suck with nerfs.  I like a godlike healer, a magic nuke of doom, a warrior that can stand and fight 15 enemies, and a sneaky rouge that can fire off arrows while hidden.  You don't really see any cool stuff like that because of PvP balance issues. 

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  • sadeyxsadeyx leicesterPosts: 1,553Member

    Originally posted by trancejeremy

    Duh, they can't gank newbies.

    I think you got your argument arse over tit, lol

    If you cant 'gank' then it means your in a reasonably level playing field.   Which, in terms of any player vs player sport means that its True PvP.  an Enclosed envoiroment.  Thats why you have leagues and divisions in football, its why you seperate men and women at the olympics.

    For example,  if your a murderer who takes someone by suprise...  thats not a fight, nor a battle nor is it war.. its just opportunistic. 

    So ganking isnt pvp either, its just opportunistic.   Thats why you dont consider Pirates in Eve to be pvpers, they are cowards who have little pvp skill but take pleasure in influicting pain and discomfort on others.   They activly avoid any kind of challenge.

    A true pvper seeks challenge, balance, an envoiroment in which human wit, fast thinking, cunning and skill are the measures of victory.. not the tools of war.

    Saying "you cant gank" actually implies that its a challenging pvp envoiroment.

  • MackehMackeh LondonPosts: 164Member



    Originally posted by choujiofkono
      PvP in most games is fun for about 15 minutes anyway.  I play AArma2, TF2, and those kinds of games for my gibfests.  I don't really see the point in PvP in MMO's to be honest.  They all boil down to the build of the month club or the "who's got the shiniest weapon" club.  There is no real skill in that kind of gameplay in my opinion.  It's like playing chess and telling the black side they can move an extra square every round.  Either way it's perpetually unbalanced.  PvP is only fun when you have the same amount of options as your opponent and you both have to choose what you do with them.  PvP rebalancing pretty much destroys the fun and immersion of an MMO by making the PvE experience suck with nerfs.  I like a godlike healer, a magic nuke of doom, a warrior that can stand and fight 15 enemies, and a sneaky rouge that can fire off arrows while hidden.  You don't really see any cool stuff like that because of PvP balance issues. 

    See thats where ya wrong!

    As a 60's child I grew up in a world where kids did not run to the tissue cupboard as soon as things became "Unfair", we just adapted to the situation. PvP in say WOW is brilliant as you know that while out questing the chances are you are going to run tinot a PvP fight that may be totally unfair, it is this sense of worry that adds atmosphere to the game, this is why I hate BG's or Arena, it's all staged and setup....ready, steady, GO! You know how many enemy, where they are and it's all nice and even...bah how boring.

    I like nothing more than being attacked in STV by 2 or 3 guys a few levels or the same level as me and being totally ganked, then finding a few other guys on my faction and hunting them down for revenge. Thats PvP! LOTRO has no PvP imo, world PvP is the only PvP worth playing.

  • RocketeerRocketeer NachrodtPosts: 1,304Member

    Originally posted by Mackeh

     

    See thats where ya wrong!

    As a 60's child I grew up in a world where kids did not run to the tissue cupboard as soon as things became "Unfair", we just adapted to the situation. PvP in say WOW is brilliant as you know that while out questing the chances are you are going to run tinot a PvP fight that may be totally unfair, it is this sense of worry that adds atmosphere to the game, this is why I hate BG's or Arena, it's all staged and setup....ready, steady, GO! You know how many enemy, where they are and it's all nice and even...bah how boring.

    I like nothing more than being attacked in STV by 2 or 3 guys a few levels or the same level as me and being totally ganked, then finding a few other guys on my faction and hunting them down for revenge. Thats PvP! LOTRO has no PvP imo, world PvP is the only PvP worth playing.

    Oh please is this the Sesame Street crowd speaking? As a 80's child i grew up in a world where kids lived with the consequences of their actions, instead of being stupid, we adapted to the situation. PvP in say EvE is brilliant as you know that while your out exploring chances are your going to run into hostile players, a PvP fight that is most likely going to be totally unfair and will have noticeable consequences if you stumble into it unwary. It is this sense of consequences and thinking ahead that adds atmosphere to the game. This is why i hate meaningless world PvP where you just run back to your corpse and revive ... ready, steady, GO!

    Imho PvP with consequences is the only PvP worth playing.

     

    See what i did there? Claiming only one kind of PvP is worth having is just arrogant, WoWs open world PvP is utterly boring to me, it just does not give me any adrenalin kick. However only having 200 mil in your wallet and getting stuck in a wormhole with hostile probes on scan in your pimped T3 and having to claw your way out through a bubbled WH leading most likely into 0.0 space. YIEHAAA baby. You can't even log out to be safe or port back home, talk about angst. Oh and the public humiliation of killboards, your corpmates are never going to let you live down getting slaughtered in your T3 by a couple t1 cruisers.

     

    You either have PvP with consequences, or you have PvP without. If loosing does not matter then winning doesn't either. If im not getting the shakes in PvP im more likely than not bored.

  • PapadamPapadam Tampa bay, FLPosts: 2,102Member

    PvP in LotrO is not competetive in the same sense as other games/MMOs which makes competetive people hate it. PvMP should be played just for the fun of killing :)

    If WoW = The Beatles
    and WAR = Led Zeppelin
    Then LotrO = Pink Floyd

  • CeridithCeridith Toronto, ONPosts: 2,980Member

    For the few months I did play LOTRO, I found LOTRO's PvP system more enjoyable than most other MMOs I've played. Despite the limitations and a few balance issues, I generally found it more balanced and well, just plain more fun.

    After reaching level 10 I think it was, I was able to create a creep and jump into the PvP. I didn't have to worry about grinding gear, levels, etc. Just created a character, and jumped into the fray. Of course there is the grind of infamy I believe it was, but your best gains were from just participating and having fun.

    The concept of a PvPM system has a lot more potential as well. Because the Creep characters are just a fixed level, and are made explicitly for PvP, it's much easier (in theory) for developers to balance PvP. Rather than full characters vs full characters, who need a whole range of abilities that span several levels, gear, abilities etc, the developers can focus on designing creep characters to be a specific power level and give them a pool of abilities tailored to counter regular characters, without having to worry overly too much about PvE viability or level/gear scaling.

  • warmaster670warmaster670 Simcoe, ONPosts: 1,384Member

    So it has fake pvp? huh, here i thought i played it.

     

    Newsflash, pvp is pvp, there is no such thing as "true" pvp, seeing as pvp stands for player vs player, and it really doesnt get anymore basic than that.

    Apparently stating the truth in my sig is "trolling"
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  • MurashuMurashu Ft Rucker, ALPosts: 1,394Member

    Is the PvMP really that fun? I've played LotRO off and on several times and never could get high enough to PvP due to the boring PvE quest grind. I never have figured out why games require you to PvE before becoming eligible to PvP.

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  • RobsolfRobsolf Grand Rapids, MIPosts: 4,249Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by warmaster670

    So it has fake pvp? huh, here i thought i played it.

     

    Newsflash, pvp is pvp, there is no such thing as "true" pvp, seeing as pvp stands for player vs player, and it really doesnt get anymore basic than that.

    The only "true" PvP is 2 people actually in a room beating the crap out of each other.

    Until they're ready to do that, they should StFU about what's true PvP and what isn't.

  • KyleranKyleran Tampa, FLPosts: 20,004Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by sadeyx

    Originally posted by trancejeremy

    Duh, they can't gank newbies.

    I think you got your argument arse over tit, lol

    If you cant 'gank' then it means your in a reasonably level playing field.   Which, in terms of any player vs player sport means that its True PvP.  an Enclosed envoiroment.  Thats why you have leagues and divisions in football, its why you seperate men and women at the olympics.

    For example,  if your a murderer who takes someone by suprise...  thats not a fight, nor a battle nor is it war.. its just opportunistic. 

    So ganking isnt pvp either, its just opportunistic.   Thats why you dont consider Pirates in Eve to be pvpers, they are cowards who have little pvp skill but take pleasure in influicting pain and discomfort on others.   They activly avoid any kind of challenge.

    A true pvper seeks challenge, balance, an envoiroment in which human wit, fast thinking, cunning and skill are the measures of victory.. not the tools of war.

    Saying "you cant gank" actually implies that its a challenging pvp envoiroment.

    Depend on the game.  In EVE "true pvper's" win at all costs, since there are stakes and consequences for losing on the line.

    While I'm not a fan of "ganking" newbies or the helpless, no one said all PVP games have to provide a fair and balanced environment, half the challenge can be to make sure you win and always win, no matter what.

     

    In my day MMORPG's were so hard we fought our way through dungeons in the snow, uphill both ways.
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  • Rockgod99Rockgod99 Manhatten, NYPosts: 4,640Member

    Lotro is a Pve focused game.

    The monster play mechanic is just something else to do.

    You get to mess with a monster class and gain destiny points these points can be spent on Skills, traits and buffs.

    The zone ( a rather big freaking zone) that you have access to is filled with quests and little pvp objectives.

    So yeah OP, there is no true pvp (a total pvp focus) in Lotro but does there need to be? The Pve is rather good imo.

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    Playing: Rift, LotRO
    Waiting on: GW2, BP

  • Cik_AsalinCik_Asalin SoCal, CAPosts: 3,033Member

    Originally posted by Unreal024

    I've seen it stated, again and again, that LotRO  has no 'true' pvp. Having played PvMP on both creeps and freeps i'm curious just what this means? How is pvp in LotRO really any different than say... Warhammer, or Aion, WoW, or any other themepark game?

     

    I guess you could argue that Monster characters aren't full fledged toons, but there are people who have spent just as much time on their Monster toons as I have on my LM. They put up a damn good fight aswell, someone who is willing to spend the time on a Monster character is in no way gimped, not like they used to be.

     

    Explain...

    PvP as a term is much more expansive then then a simple cage-match in a confined area between a few players that has no content or game-play meaning.  PvP involves merchandising, resource management, control and gathering, trades, combat for bragging rights, control for game-play purposes, clan contribution to game-play and personal rank.  Not one mmorpg in the last 6 years has done it as well as CCP, and not one development studio has been able to sustain as active an audience compared to most AAA titles than EVE.

  • Rockgod99Rockgod99 Manhatten, NYPosts: 4,640Member

    Originally posted by Cik_Asalin

    Originally posted by Unreal024

    I've seen it stated, again and again, that LotRO  has no 'true' pvp. Having played PvMP on both creeps and freeps i'm curious just what this means? How is pvp in LotRO really any different than say... Warhammer, or Aion, WoW, or any other themepark game?

     

    I guess you could argue that Monster characters aren't full fledged toons, but there are people who have spent just as much time on their Monster toons as I have on my LM. They put up a damn good fight aswell, someone who is willing to spend the time on a Monster character is in no way gimped, not like they used to be.

     

    Explain...

    PvP as a term is much more expansive then then a simple cage-match in a confined area between a few players that has no content or game-play meaning.  PvP involves merchandising, resource management, control and gathering, trades, combat for bragging rights, control for game-play purposes, clan contribution to game-play and personal rank.  Not one mmorpg in the last 6 years has done it as well as CCP, and not one development studio has been able to sustain as active an audience compared to most AAA titles than EVE.

    So only EvE has real pvp? awesome.

    Some people like Monster play dude and consider it pvp.

    Because it doesnt fit that absurd definition of "real pvp" doesnt mean it doesnt have pvp on some level.

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    Playing: Rift, LotRO
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  • k44cv9k44cv9 KarlskronaPosts: 33Member

    One thing is important there was no plan from the beginning to have pvp in lotro. But they changed it and made the mecanics off pvmp. 

    Its really hard work to get to rank 15 on both creep and freep side. You really need to be addicted to get that high rank. 

    There is also DoF (delving of Fror) under ettenmors where there is pve but still you can run into creeps and freeps while you are fighthing a pve boss or mob.

     

    And as someone said earlier in this thread lotro is a game with focus on pve, not like warhammer online where the focus is rvr (pvp).

  • WickedjellyWickedjelly Yahoo, COPosts: 4,990Member

    Turbine simply doesn't oput any effort into it and still after all this time it is only one zone and has very little overall effect on anything outside of that zone 'cept maybe bragging rights.  That and dealing with the occasional butthurt player that gets po'd and decides tio make a toon on the opposite side so they can share with other players how they were slighted so we can all feel their pain.

    It isn't that there isn't any PvP it 's just that compared to some other games it's fairly weak.  Which is fine.  They've made it rather obvious that isn't one of their focal points for the game.  Which when you consider how some games fare when they try to offer both elements in their game may not be such a bad thing.

    1. For god's sake mmo gamers, enough with the analogies. They're unnecessary and your comparisons are terrible, dissimilar, and illogical.

    2. To posters feeling the need to state how f2p really isn't f2p: Players understand the concept. You aren't privy to some secret the rest are missing. You're embarrassing yourself.

    3. Yes, Cpt. Obvious, we're not industry experts. Now run along and let the big people use the forums for their purpose.

  • RocketeerRocketeer NachrodtPosts: 1,304Member

    Originally posted by Wickedjelly

    Turbine simply doesn't oput any effort into it and still after all this time it is only one zone and has very little overall effect on anything outside of that zone 'cept maybe bragging rights.  That and dealing with the occasional butthurt player that gets po'd and decides tio make a toon on the opposite side so they can share with other players how they were slighted so we can all feel their pain.

    It isn't that there isn't any PvP it 's just that compared to some other games it's fairly weak.  Which is fine.  They've made it rather obvious that isn't one of their focal points for the game.  Which when you consider how some games fare when they try to offer both elements in their game may not be such a bad thing.

     

    Spreading the population around 3 different zones per levelrange did not work so well for warhammer. More is not better with PvP, if we had 10 PvP zones the size of ettenmoors it would ruin the PvP because you would never encounter another player.

    Ettenmoors is frickin huge, they should work on content there, not include even more dead space that only serves to delay your arrival at some POI by several minutes. But anyway, Turbine is going to focus on PvP early next year i think. First is the November update, then new raids early next year, PvP update and inclusion of premiums, and then the next expansion around june which will be Isengard.


  • WickedjellyWickedjelly Yahoo, COPosts: 4,990Member

    Originally posted by Rocketeer.

     

    Spreading the population around 3 different zones per levelrange did not work so well for warhammer. More is not better with PvP, if we had 10 PvP zones the size of ettenmoors it would ruin the PvP because you would never encounter another player.

     That isn't why Warhammer didn't fair well.  The reason is because there wasn't enough content outside of PvP, T3/4 PvP gameplay became a convoluted mess, scenarios offered way better payouts xp/pvp wise than RvR, the RvR system was jacked - hence the merry go round play observed in fort taking, etc.

    The game was an absoutle mess in the later tiers and that is why many ended up quitting Warhammer.  Eventually that led to population problems that created issues with people being in different zones but that is not the reason the game failed initially.  If anything, games like Warhammer proved that the majority of players are fairweather PvPers.  In other words, while many enjoy PvP you have to have more to your game than just that or it won't have a high retention rate.  Granted,they may not be the best example because even when it came to the PvP aspect of the game it fell to pieces at the higher tiers.

    1. For god's sake mmo gamers, enough with the analogies. They're unnecessary and your comparisons are terrible, dissimilar, and illogical.

    2. To posters feeling the need to state how f2p really isn't f2p: Players understand the concept. You aren't privy to some secret the rest are missing. You're embarrassing yourself.

    3. Yes, Cpt. Obvious, we're not industry experts. Now run along and let the big people use the forums for their purpose.

  • RocketeerRocketeer NachrodtPosts: 1,304Member

    Originally posted by Wickedjelly

    Originally posted by Rocketeer.

     

    Spreading the population around 3 different zones per levelrange did not work so well for warhammer. More is not better with PvP, if we had 10 PvP zones the size of ettenmoors it would ruin the PvP because you would never encounter another player.

     That isn't why Warhammer didn't fair well.  The reason is because there wasn't enough content outside of PvP, T3/4 PvP gameplay became a convoluted mess, scenarios offered way better payouts xp/pvp wise than RvR, the RvR system was jacked - hence the merry go round play observed in fort taking, etc.

    The game was an absoutle mess in the later tiers and that is why many ended up quitting Warhammer.  Eventually that led to population problems that created issues with people being in different zones but that is not the reason the game failed initially.  If anything, games like Warhammer proved that the majority of players are fairweather PvPers.  In other words, while many enjoy PvP you have to have more to your game than just that or it won't have a high retention rate.  Granted,they may not be the best example because even when it came to the PvP aspect of the game it fell to pieces at the higher tiers.

    I was actually talking about the converging of starting zones. At the beginning every race had its own starting zone, nowadays they all start in empire/chaos zones because there are just not enough players to supply all those public quests/RvR zones with people.

    So what i was trying to say was that you need a critical mass of players in close vicinity in order to do fun group based stuff. For example on a busy day there are maybe 50 people in ettens average over the day(random number). This works out to some nice PvP action, zergs, small groups, 1on1 it would probably all happen. If you spread the same 50 people over lets say 3 zones the size of ettens each you would radically change the PvP, you would either have a zerg in one zone and two dead zones, or you would have 3 zones with only small scale PvP.

    And that doesn't even get into the problem of tiering. If you make a second zone, how will it be different? Will it offer better rewards? That would kill the current zone. Will it have cooler quests? Again the same happens. Maybe lower gear levels ibn one and higher in the other? You would get top heavy in a zone as the server ages, and Ettens is far to big for small player numbers.

     

    So yeah, lets forget adding new zones to pvp in LotRO without some really good concept of how it would work out. Its just not an improvement on its own, infact it more likely than not will be bad for the game.

  • WickedjellyWickedjelly Yahoo, COPosts: 4,990Member

    Originally posted by Rocketeer

    So yeah, lets forget adding new zones to pvp in LotRO without some really good concept of how it would work out. Its just not an improvement on its own, infact it more likely than not will be bad for the game.

     Of course not, my point wasn't that for them to solidify the PvP they need to simply have more zones.  That would be one of a multitude of steps Turbine would need to take that they clearly aren't vested in doing.

    Which is fine, that isn't one of the focal points of this game.  It isn't ever going to be. It's a great PvE game with some PvP to meddle around with on occasion.  Certanly not something the majority of players out there are going to focus on or something that is going to be worthwhile for most that focus on PvP gameplay.

    Does this mean no one enjoys it or finds it fun? Certainly not.  However it isn't one of the strengths of this game nor is it something I would highlight to a new player or suggest to a player looking for a game that says one of their favorite elements in a game is PvP gameplay.

    1. For god's sake mmo gamers, enough with the analogies. They're unnecessary and your comparisons are terrible, dissimilar, and illogical.

    2. To posters feeling the need to state how f2p really isn't f2p: Players understand the concept. You aren't privy to some secret the rest are missing. You're embarrassing yourself.

    3. Yes, Cpt. Obvious, we're not industry experts. Now run along and let the big people use the forums for their purpose.

  • Rockgod99Rockgod99 Manhatten, NYPosts: 4,640Member
    You don't come to Lotro to pvp. The entire Monster play feature was a gift from turbine something to shut the guys up that felt Lotro should have been faction based and pvp focused (a dreadful idea I'n the first place).

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    Playing: Rift, LotRO
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