As for the length of the contract and it being resigned, prove it. Do you have a link with a press release about the renewed contract? I highly doubt soe signed a contract that only lasted a few years and risked millions building a game in such a manner.
Prove what? That the industry standard is 3 years on average? IP licenses aren't something their owners give out on a long term basis. Hell, Lucas only gives Hasbro a max license period of 10 years for actual physical products. LucasArts may not be a publicly traded corporation, but they could certainly be held accountable to the shareholders of their partners if it were ever revealed that it was them that was responsible for the loss of revenue. The fact that they weren't is certainly suspect.
Don't be so naive. LucasArts bound SOE by NDA as part of their license contract. And they'd have been fools not to. And you can bet they afforded themselves that same luxury with BioWare. So if/when THAT game goes tits-up, it won't have any effect on the next piece of crap they shovel into the market through their next partnership.
Oh, and the name I couldn't remember earlier was Julio Torres. He was LucasArts executive producer for SWG prior to, and during the NGE planning and implementation stages. (he started working on SWG with JTL)
You should read the interview he did with GameSpy back in Nov. '05, which CLEARLY shows that the NGE changes to SWG were AT LEAST as much the responsibility of LucasArts, as it was SOE (yeah, I know, you yourself aren't claiming otherwise... so that bit isn't directed at you specifically). Most notable though, is this comment:
JT: Our goal is to make Star Wars Galaxies as fun, exciting, and accessible to all current, new, and prospective players as possible. When developing these new enhancements, our focus was on making the game more fun for everyone, including our veteran/current players.
Its pretty clear that he was neck deep in the whole thing, AS it was being developed and implemented. So who really proposed and initiated the NGE may never really be known. I tend to believe it was LucasArts, mainly because mmo studios don't normally make massive changes like that to an already live game. Especially when it was obviously performing reasonably in the mmo market.
You can bet LucasArts will have a whole team of Julio Torres' sticking their hands into SW:TOR. Just hope those that buy and sub to it don't have to experience their own NGE if its suddenly decided that it needs to be "more fun" for everyone a year or more after its release.
Whats done is done, and nothing can change it. So enough of this. It certainly doesn't hold any comparison in severity to what Activision/Blizzard tried to pull on their subscribers with RealID. At least SOE never tried to offer my personal information to the general public to make money.
I'm sure that both parties have their interests covered in the contract and for all we know soe has a 10 year deal. We don't know, because there is no proof of what the contract says. Likewise we don't know whos discretion it was that the contract gets renewed, if it was even renewed! For all you and I know soe could have options they exercise to extend and lucas is powerless to do anything about it or the original contract is still in effect right now. The point is we don't know what the contract is or isn't and everything presented about it has been nothing more than rumor. Not that this would prove anything related to the discussion anyhow.
As for lucas art shareholders, perhaps nothing had to be explained to them, because there wasn't a net loss to the company? Even if there was, that is something you and I would not know if it did or didn't happen, because it is a privately held company. Maybe it was explained and people were fired over it, we will never know.
Either way I'm sure Lucas Arts lost money like soe did, but that was from potential revenues lost as players cancelled. SOE lost money in the form of all the time they spent developing the game which is a direct out of pocket expense. Lucas arts was still going to collect their licensing fees from soe, they just were not going to make as much profit. SOE invested in the license they purchased from lucas arts and if lucas arts FORCED soe to make a change that resulted in massive decline in profits, then lucas arts would be held responsible. So yes I think if Lucas Arts forced soe to make this change against their will and the result was the loss of somewhere around 36 million in revenue a year, then a lawsuit would be a forgone conclusion. Lucas arts has no one to hold legally responsible but themselves, because they have final authority on what goes into the game.
As for the NDA I agree. I'm sure soe is held in their comments by an NDA, but at the same time I bet you anything lucas arts is held by the same conditions. Again I'm not sure what you think this is proving or how it relates to the issue of lucas arts forcing soe to make these changes as you claimed.
You are also right that Julio Torres talked about how both companies went forward with the changes which is something I never denied. I'll do you one better that John Smedley was giving the same handjob message during some press releaeses after the nge hit. All of this was done AFTER the changes were in motion and went live. You do recognize this as a press release in an effort to calm users down right? These are not responses to the question of "who created the NGE and did Lucas Arts force soe into this change"? These statements are damage control by both companies trying to sell a new product to a new demographic while trying to calm down their existing users.
As for me taking off my blinders, we have the developers at soe saying first hand that they were tasked with writing a tutorial to go along with a new marketing push. Those same developers took it upon themselves to go beyond their assignment and create something so drastically different that it turned into the NGE. Something so different that they warned the producers they would lose 200,000 players if they pushed it live. Something that was presented to the producers and not handed down as an assignment BY the producers. Can you see the difference in how this happened?
I don't know what more you need to read in order to see that lucas arts didn't force soe to make these changes. That soe conceived them and sold the idea to lucas arts. You tell me to take my blinders off, but right there you have soe developers admitting they made the nge from their own inspiration and not as a mandate to completely revamp the game. Yes I understand that lucas arts approved the changes that soe designed and they share the responsibility for this, but the idea of the nge was born at soe. It wasn't something soe was forced into doing. It was something soe wanted to do and convinced lucas arts to get on board with. In the end both companies are equally at fault for screwing their customers over, but soe was not held at gunpoint to do. It is something they initiated and lucas arts agreed with.
Those same developers took it upon themselves to go beyond their assignment and create something so drastically different that it turned into the NGE. Something so different that they warned the producers they would lose 200,000 players if they pushed it live. Something that was presented to the producers and not handed down as an assignment BY the producers. Can you see the difference in how this happened?
The problem with this line of thinking, and the main reason this will go round and round forever, is thats theres no clear line of accountability. Which is what should have been sought out by every disgruntled SWG subscriber right from the start. Look at your own statement here:
that they warned the producers
Who were "they" and who were the "producers"? If by "they" you mean the developers (SOE), and if by "producers" you mean LucasArts, you're saying that those responsible for creating the NGE content and pitching it to the producers, were the very same people warning them NOT to implement it.
Wait. What? How does that possibly make any sense at all? Why would SOE developers pitch something to LucasArts that they themselves didn't want to see implemented, because of their own suspected risk to subscriptions?
So, until a clear line of accountability surfaces, theres really no telling who's idea the NGE actually was. So your claim of "the idea of the nge was born at soe" is utter nonsense. You say you don't solely blame SOE, yet you near completely exhonorate LucasArts by claiming SOE should have known better, and should never have pitched the changes (which they themselves didn't want to see implemented, and would require the near complete rebuild of an already live game). As I said earlier, I hold no great love for SOE, but no great animosity either. At least not enough to trash them every chance I get.
As others have said, its time to get over it and move on. And hope history doesn't repeat itself with SW:TOR. One thing is for certain: no one will be able to blame SOE if it does.
You keep putting words into my mouth as if I have no blame for Lucas Arts in this matter when I have repeatedly stated that I hold lucas arts just as much to blame. They had the ultimate authority to say no and regardless of who or what was created they could have stopped it. Honestly I am not trying to absolve them of any blame. Is that clear enough?
As for the line of accountability, it is right there if you chose to read it and not ignore what was said. I really think you are playing semantic games here in order to pretend we just can't determine who said what and who did what.
"They" are the soe developers who created the concept of the nge. We know this, because it was the designers who said this. This isn't some ambigious statement from a friend of a friend. It came straight from the horses mouth. It is the game designers admitting the created something that they thought was so awesome their boss must see it even though they knew it could be problematic. They showed it to the producer, because that is their job and it is the job of the producer to decide what is and isn't a good idea.
We know that the designers said producer (singular) and not executive producer. Since they were soe employees they answer directly to SOE and not lucas arts. The producer would then decide if this surprise idea was something that warrented further review and if it was even worthy of the executive producer seeing. This isn't something designers run to the executive producer with and cut out their superiors.
Also the designers did not pitch something they didn't want to do. If you even read the posts you would know the designers didn't like the current version of star wars and especially disliked the combat upgrade. They loved the idea of drastically changing the game. They just didn't know how to do it without losing the current players. That is something the producers would have to work out and as it turns out the producers really didn't care about the current subscribers. Both lucas arts and soe.
It is easy to understand why the idea was pitched. The designers were excited about making drastic changes and the leadership thought this would bring in the world of warcraft crowd. They all thought this would net more subscribers than it lost, because they were greedy, don't respect their customers and lost touch with the market.
You could have read all of this and not pretend we don't know who said what. It is all there for the reading... Instead you want to defend this notion that soe was somehow an unwilling partner in this,because they were forced to make these changes by lucas arts. So far you have not given any supporting information to make your claim believable and every bit of information speaks to the contrary of your claims. Honestly if you have something to back up your claims then please share it. I'd love to hear it.
For the record, the NGE didn't burn me. I was long gone from SWG before the nge hit. Actually I was playing EQ2 at the time which was undergoing its own special brand of soe disdain for its players with its own version of a combat upgrade that upset the playerbase and the station exchange fiasco. At this point it really became it really was difficult to ignore how little respect soe has for its players and realize that with so many major revamps to their game that they just don't how to design games anymore.
Some day I really hope they clean house and get back to making kickass games and listening to their players again. So far that really hasn't happened.
those who say its lucas arts to blame for the nge haven't read the jeff freeman revelation archive.
again, the idea to drop the nge came from soe's developers and cheered by soe's executives.
lucas arts just gave the green light for it all - but we can't really blame them since for the past 5-10 years or so lucas has been approving everything and anything that comes their way - from undead soldiers in EU novels to inaccurate content in video games.
Sorry but I don't see reason to praise blizzard for "listening" to the whiners and changing their minds on RealID for their forums. The change would have cut back on so much of the shit you find on the internet and really the only people who appose the change are those who are afraid they wouldn't be able to make an ass of themselves online anymore.
I suggest you all go watch a video on gametrailers.com where they talk about this and pretty well come to the conclusion that the most vocal of us online are the douches who would suffer from the change because they'd no longer have an alias to hide behind... so who do you think really put up a big stink about RealID? Yeah, that's right. The trolls.
I still haven't re-activated my WoW account and frankly don't intend to. I know companies like Activision don't give up their plans because mere customers demand it.
I think the new change to the Real ID and blizzard forums is going to display the posters Unique ID number that can be used to view all of your characters. This should get rid of people posting on level 1 alts and such, but I think you are right. BlizzardActivision is going to keep pushing this idea on the players.
those who say its lucas arts to blame for the nge haven't read the jeff freeman revelation archive.
again, the idea to drop the nge came from soe's developers and cheered by soe's executives.
lucas arts just gave the green light for it all - but we can't really blame them since for the past 5-10 years or so lucas has been approving everything and anything that comes their way - from undead soldiers in EU novels to inaccurate content in video games.
Yes, Jeff's statements and the whole Nom Nom rant by Rubenfeld (edited to death on his site btw) lay a lot of blame at the feet of SOE. That being said, it reminds me of Murder on the Orient Express - everyone had their hands in this bloody mess.
AS for being back on topic - Blizzard reacted to their fanbase's demands. Not out of the graciousness of their hearts but rather the fear of revenue loss AND bad PR (having learned a thing or two form the SOE debacle - see numerous articles, forums, rants and chides for details). I give them credit for taking a step back for the moment. I expect another attempt down the road but as long as the media chooses to cover it and people spread the word - such acts are very difficult to get away with. SOE just happened to have a bit more control on the outlets due to advertising dollars and future dealings back then.
I think you are right Kefkah. To add to that, I suspect companies announce these wild controversal changes in order to get players to feel they won a victory when it gets scaled down.
Blizzard announces real names and players get upset. They retract that change and say they will just link something else that identifies players and everyone feels they won. Perhaps a bit tinfoil hat of me, but I just can't figure out this mess just yet.
Blizzard obviously has an agenda and I think you are right, they are going to keep pressing it.
What makes Blizzard different from Sony? They actually listen to their players.
I think you are comparing Apples to Oranges.
One is a topic that will affect all players, both curent and new.
The other is a game change that they knew would piss off players but they were willing to lose some for the possibility to gain more.
It would be a moot point to listen to players in the Sony scenario because they knew there would be dissent. They knew they would lose players. That was part of the equation.
But Blizzard's change was something that was more fundamental to all players involved.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
those who say its lucas arts to blame for the nge haven't read the jeff freeman revelation archive.
again, the idea to drop the nge came from soe's developers and cheered by soe's executives.
lucas arts just gave the green light for it all - but we can't really blame them since for the past 5-10 years or so lucas has been approving everything and anything that comes their way - from undead soldiers in EU novels to inaccurate content in video games.
Yes, Jeff's statements and the whole Nom Nom rant by Rubenfeld (edited to death on his site btw) lay a lot of blame at the feet of SOE. That being said, it reminds me of Murder on the Orient Express - everyone had their hands in this bloody mess.
Jeff Freeman (on this forum), Dan Rubenfeld (in his original blog post, where he told everyone to eat a dick if they didn't think the NGE was a great idea and only fialed because of a lack of marketing), and Alan Crosby (Brenlo, on the oboard, answering a question directly asking if LEC forced SOE to develop and implement the NGE) all outright stated they the NGE changes were not mandated by LEC and were concieved at SOE. LEC shares responsibility for the NGE being released, but they weren't the genesis of it, or the ones who pushed for it to happen.
Sorry but I don't see reason to praise blizzard for "listening" to the whiners and changing their minds on RealID for their forums. The change would have cut back on so much of the shit you find on the internet and really the only people who appose the change are those who are afraid they wouldn't be able to make an ass of themselves online anymore.
I suggest you all go watch a video on gametrailers.com where they talk about this and pretty well come to the conclusion that the most vocal of us online are the douches who would suffer from the change because they'd no longer have an alias to hide behind... so who do you think really put up a big stink about RealID? Yeah, that's right. The trolls.
Sorry mate...I totally disagree with you on this one. Yes - it would have cut down on the spam and trolls and douchebags...but that's not the right way to do it. Ban them or block IP addresses.
I think:
1) Blizzard was afraid of "cracking down" because, like most MMOs, the forums are infinitely more fun than some of the games we pay for and they KNEW that if they banned some of the more involved players, they'd lose them as customers.
2) This was about getting more money out of the customers...indirectly. Nobody will pay for your forum name, but companies will pay for your real name. They were trying to make RealID the next Facebook.
Face it - online forums are here to stay. Internet d-bags will only increase so companies need to learn to deal with them the proper way. My ID Online will never be given away "freely" for a f'king video game as there is simply no justification for them to use it to identify me to the "masses". TurboTax, Online banking, Travel...those are the places I'll use my true ID...not to play some stupid game. Also...no chance in hell I'd let my children give out their RL IDs to play some f'ing game.
The forum users may be some of the more passionate and vocal, but they're also the same d-bags who write player guides, FAQ's, Hints, tricks, performance tweaks, upcoming events etc etc etc!!!! For all the "negative" they may bring, the amount of good they do far outweighs it IMO.
Some people in this forum will start to give SOE a break when:
1. Smed resigns or is fired.
2. SWG-NGE closes. -or-
3. SWG classic servers are launched.
To be honest, as Daff said, it is more than just one game, it is the corporate culture of a bad gaming company that is still around, with the same management in place. And they continue to to try to do new shady stuff to customers and they think people won't remember the previous bad stuff they did, or give them a pass on it? Not bloody likely. There is a master list of all the things SOE lied or other shady things they did about around here somewhere.... read some of the stuff in there and decide how forgiving people should be.
As a company, you can do whatever you want with the products and IPs you control, but a company must also accept the consequences of those decisions. Especially in an industry where reputations stick with a company more than usual, SOE has reaped precisely what they have sown.
Some people in this forum will start to give SOE a break when:
1. Smed resigns or is fired.
2. SWG-NGE closes. -or-
3. SWG classic servers are launched.
To be honest, as Daff said, it is more than just one game, it is the corporate culture of a bad gaming company that is still around, with the same management in place. And they continue to to try to do new shady stuff to customers and they think people won't remember the previous bad stuff they did, or give them a pass on it? Not bloody likely. There is a master of list of all the things SOE lied or other shady things they did about around here somewhere.... read some of the stuff in there and decide how forgiving people should be.
As a company, you can do whatever you want with the products and IPs you control, but a company must also accept the consequences of those decisions. Especially in an industry where reputations stick with a company more than usual, SOE has reaped precisely what they have sown.
I bought a new Chevy pick up. It was a piece of shit. I no longer buy GM products. Does GM make good products? Maybe but they had their chance with me and I moved on. Do I care what they build or how well they do? Not in the least.
WOW isnt great because it has 12 million players. WOW has 12 million players because its great.
Some people in this forum will start to give SOE a break when:
2. SWG-NGE closes. -or-
3. SWG classic servers are launched.
This annoys me. It is one thing to say that you dont like the current implementation of whatever game. But its another thing to want it to shut down purely out of spite. Which will be at the cost of the players who are currently enjoying it. Buy a moral compass please.
Some people in this forum will start to give SOE a break when:
1. Smed resigns or is fired.
2. SWG-NGE closes. -or-
3. SWG classic servers are launched.
To be honest, as Daff said, it is more than just one game, it is the corporate culture of a bad gaming company that is still around, with the same management in place. And they continue to to try to do new shady stuff to customers and they think people won't remember the previous bad stuff they did, or give them a pass on it? Not bloody likely. There is a master of list of all the things SOE lied or other shady things they did about around here somewhere.... read some of the stuff in there and decide how forgiving people should be.
As a company, you can do whatever you want with the products and IPs you control, but a company must also accept the consequences of those decisions. Especially in an industry where reputations stick with a company more than usual, SOE has reaped precisely what they have sown.
I bought a new Chevy pick up. It was a piece of shit. I no longer buy GM products. Does GM make good products? Maybe but they had their chance with me and I moved on. Do I care what they build or how well they do? Not in the least.
You are perhaps more willing to "move on" than others. And that is a personal choice.
However, It does not, in fact make them wrong for not doing so.
Some people in this forum will start to give SOE a break when:
2. SWG-NGE closes. -or-
3. SWG classic servers are launched.
This annoys me. It is one thing to say that you dont like the current implementation of whatever game. But its another thing to want it to shut down purely out of spite. Which will be at the cost of the players who are currently enjoying it. Buy a moral compass please.
Did I say that my personal opinion? No. I am long gone from SWG and never going back. And from SOE as well.
As for people playing the current game, they are part of the problem, in my opinion, for NOT holding SOE accountable for all the crappy stuff they have ever done, and the poor way they treat customers. They play a barely functional, ruined game, take all the half lousy, buggy "new content" that is put in, and keep paying. Enabling SOE's bad behavior, by continuing to pay, only make SOE more likely to try the next cash grab. What was it called in another thread? "Battered Gamers Syndrome?" "Virtual Stockholme Syndrome?"
Fortunately, those few players still willing to pay for a far sub par MMO, SWG-NGE are getting fewer by the day. Something on the order of 98% of people that have EVER played SWG have cancelled, and all things considered, that is a good thing.
As for starting classic servers, what would that cost current players? Not a damn thing. It would even help them out by bringing more revenue into the game, but I guess you missed that one eh?
My moral compass is fine. Along with all the other people that have quit SWG/SOE game X after some unwanted change, outright lie or money grab.
The decision to use Real ID on the forums sparked a massive outrage from the players. Many were disappointed or angry that Blizzard would choose to risk the privacy of other players. Over the next few days, we raged and begged for Blizzard to change their minds. That particular forum posts soon generated almost 2500 (50000 posts) pages of mostly negative comments.
A great victory for the community! It just goes to show you, when the community united as one and voiced their feedback to Blizzard, they listened to us and reverted this change. They made the wrong decision and they admitted it up front: we were wrong, the community was right. This is why I respect Blizzard over so many other companies.
I symphatize with the veterans who got a once great game stolen away by Sony. You guys united and voiced your hate for the NGE but unlike Blizzard, Sony did not listened and went ahead with that change. What did that earned them: a severely watered-down game that is now a mere shadow of its former self.
This had got me thinking: Why can't Sony be like Blizzard? Had Sony listened to its players and did not implemented the NGE, SWG would still be a great game today. Maybe it was because they thought they would get more subscribers. Well, that certainly did not worked.
They will do anything to keep the community loyal. Know why? I do.
I'm not sure how discussing the history, present and future of the genre means someone did not move on. I enjoy discussing mmos and soe frequently finds their way into headlines and topics.
On the flip side, soe has no problems spamming me with "hey come back, see what we have changed", so I do and I keep finding out nothing has changed. Someday they might change their practices. Until that day I can only keep informed and be realisitic about current situations.
One does not need to turn a blind eye to move on or whatever it is you are trying to say.
I never said SWG was SOE's only screwup, it just seems to be the only one people refuse to get over.
As for EQ, SOE is not changing the regular subscription servers. Free trials are pointless with free play servers. Station Cash has been in the game for a while now. "Game changing" items are not going to be on the subsciption servers. I don't see the issue here, if anything this is the first time SOE has done something right...
Perhaps it was a bit misleading (my misunderstanding or poor wording?) when you said that you have seen people who never played swg, but they hate soe. It sort of reads that in order to have a negative opinion of soe you must have played swg. Still my comment was meant for more than just yourself, so I said "you guys".
That being said, just go to eq2flames.com if you think the nge is the only thing people have long memories about with soe. As I said earlier, the nge is just so massive it dwarfs everything else and people tend to focus on it and miss everything else soe does.
As for EQ2, you can try to rationalize it all you want, but there is change already happening on the live servers.
To begin with, removing the free trials is just a shitty thing to do. The live servers are already suffering population decline and removing anything that might help, not matter how slight, is a terrible thing to do to players. Especially when it is in reponse to hearing the desires of your customers! Players said no (for like the 1934031725th time) to full blown cash shops, so this was how soe repaid the customers for being honest. I don't think they players knew it was an either or option being presented by soe.
Now if you really think that EQ2 has not or will not change, just look at the current game update. Soe has already changed away from making more high level content to focusing on new player experience (the NPE if you will). Soe is making changes to EQ2X that are flowing over into the live game. Such as massively scaling down particle effects, chaning animations, redoing the UI, planning to revamp the classes (again), adding station cash directly to the ingame NPC vendors (something they said would never be done), etc. This is all being done to ramp up for the EQ2X service.
Players are begging for itemizaion, lag, pvp fixes, content, etc. See topic of the thread for relevance.
Again, this is in direct response to players saying no to full blown cash shops on the live servers. SOEs answer was to remove development time (paid for by their subscription dollars) and use it to create something they said they did not want. Think about that for a second. EQ2 players are losing content so that soe can make something they clearly said they do not want.
So yes, it is having an effect on the live game. Just like balancing raids and encounters will be affected by the F2P self rez potions and self cure potions. Both games are going to share one identical code base so whatever effects one will effect that other.
All of this is in direct support of the thread title.
SOE gets so much poor word of mouth references, because they give players so many reasons to.
Comments
I'm sure that both parties have their interests covered in the contract and for all we know soe has a 10 year deal. We don't know, because there is no proof of what the contract says. Likewise we don't know whos discretion it was that the contract gets renewed, if it was even renewed! For all you and I know soe could have options they exercise to extend and lucas is powerless to do anything about it or the original contract is still in effect right now. The point is we don't know what the contract is or isn't and everything presented about it has been nothing more than rumor. Not that this would prove anything related to the discussion anyhow.
As for lucas art shareholders, perhaps nothing had to be explained to them, because there wasn't a net loss to the company? Even if there was, that is something you and I would not know if it did or didn't happen, because it is a privately held company. Maybe it was explained and people were fired over it, we will never know.
Either way I'm sure Lucas Arts lost money like soe did, but that was from potential revenues lost as players cancelled. SOE lost money in the form of all the time they spent developing the game which is a direct out of pocket expense. Lucas arts was still going to collect their licensing fees from soe, they just were not going to make as much profit. SOE invested in the license they purchased from lucas arts and if lucas arts FORCED soe to make a change that resulted in massive decline in profits, then lucas arts would be held responsible. So yes I think if Lucas Arts forced soe to make this change against their will and the result was the loss of somewhere around 36 million in revenue a year, then a lawsuit would be a forgone conclusion. Lucas arts has no one to hold legally responsible but themselves, because they have final authority on what goes into the game.
As for the NDA I agree. I'm sure soe is held in their comments by an NDA, but at the same time I bet you anything lucas arts is held by the same conditions. Again I'm not sure what you think this is proving or how it relates to the issue of lucas arts forcing soe to make these changes as you claimed.
You are also right that Julio Torres talked about how both companies went forward with the changes which is something I never denied. I'll do you one better that John Smedley was giving the same handjob message during some press releaeses after the nge hit. All of this was done AFTER the changes were in motion and went live. You do recognize this as a press release in an effort to calm users down right? These are not responses to the question of "who created the NGE and did Lucas Arts force soe into this change"? These statements are damage control by both companies trying to sell a new product to a new demographic while trying to calm down their existing users.
As for me taking off my blinders, we have the developers at soe saying first hand that they were tasked with writing a tutorial to go along with a new marketing push. Those same developers took it upon themselves to go beyond their assignment and create something so drastically different that it turned into the NGE. Something so different that they warned the producers they would lose 200,000 players if they pushed it live. Something that was presented to the producers and not handed down as an assignment BY the producers. Can you see the difference in how this happened?
I don't know what more you need to read in order to see that lucas arts didn't force soe to make these changes. That soe conceived them and sold the idea to lucas arts. You tell me to take my blinders off, but right there you have soe developers admitting they made the nge from their own inspiration and not as a mandate to completely revamp the game. Yes I understand that lucas arts approved the changes that soe designed and they share the responsibility for this, but the idea of the nge was born at soe. It wasn't something soe was forced into doing. It was something soe wanted to do and convinced lucas arts to get on board with. In the end both companies are equally at fault for screwing their customers over, but soe was not held at gunpoint to do. It is something they initiated and lucas arts agreed with.
I cant someone stole my account and blizzard wont give it back. They keep me running back and foward to different phone services
The problem with this line of thinking, and the main reason this will go round and round forever, is thats theres no clear line of accountability. Which is what should have been sought out by every disgruntled SWG subscriber right from the start. Look at your own statement here:
that they warned the producers
Who were "they" and who were the "producers"? If by "they" you mean the developers (SOE), and if by "producers" you mean LucasArts, you're saying that those responsible for creating the NGE content and pitching it to the producers, were the very same people warning them NOT to implement it.
Wait. What? How does that possibly make any sense at all? Why would SOE developers pitch something to LucasArts that they themselves didn't want to see implemented, because of their own suspected risk to subscriptions?
So, until a clear line of accountability surfaces, theres really no telling who's idea the NGE actually was. So your claim of "the idea of the nge was born at soe" is utter nonsense. You say you don't solely blame SOE, yet you near completely exhonorate LucasArts by claiming SOE should have known better, and should never have pitched the changes (which they themselves didn't want to see implemented, and would require the near complete rebuild of an already live game). As I said earlier, I hold no great love for SOE, but no great animosity either. At least not enough to trash them every chance I get.
As others have said, its time to get over it and move on. And hope history doesn't repeat itself with SW:TOR. One thing is for certain: no one will be able to blame SOE if it does.
You keep putting words into my mouth as if I have no blame for Lucas Arts in this matter when I have repeatedly stated that I hold lucas arts just as much to blame. They had the ultimate authority to say no and regardless of who or what was created they could have stopped it. Honestly I am not trying to absolve them of any blame. Is that clear enough?
As for the line of accountability, it is right there if you chose to read it and not ignore what was said. I really think you are playing semantic games here in order to pretend we just can't determine who said what and who did what.
"They" are the soe developers who created the concept of the nge. We know this, because it was the designers who said this. This isn't some ambigious statement from a friend of a friend. It came straight from the horses mouth. It is the game designers admitting the created something that they thought was so awesome their boss must see it even though they knew it could be problematic. They showed it to the producer, because that is their job and it is the job of the producer to decide what is and isn't a good idea.
We know that the designers said producer (singular) and not executive producer. Since they were soe employees they answer directly to SOE and not lucas arts. The producer would then decide if this surprise idea was something that warrented further review and if it was even worthy of the executive producer seeing. This isn't something designers run to the executive producer with and cut out their superiors.
Also the designers did not pitch something they didn't want to do. If you even read the posts you would know the designers didn't like the current version of star wars and especially disliked the combat upgrade. They loved the idea of drastically changing the game. They just didn't know how to do it without losing the current players. That is something the producers would have to work out and as it turns out the producers really didn't care about the current subscribers. Both lucas arts and soe.
It is easy to understand why the idea was pitched. The designers were excited about making drastic changes and the leadership thought this would bring in the world of warcraft crowd. They all thought this would net more subscribers than it lost, because they were greedy, don't respect their customers and lost touch with the market.
You could have read all of this and not pretend we don't know who said what. It is all there for the reading... Instead you want to defend this notion that soe was somehow an unwilling partner in this,because they were forced to make these changes by lucas arts. So far you have not given any supporting information to make your claim believable and every bit of information speaks to the contrary of your claims. Honestly if you have something to back up your claims then please share it. I'd love to hear it.
For the record, the NGE didn't burn me. I was long gone from SWG before the nge hit. Actually I was playing EQ2 at the time which was undergoing its own special brand of soe disdain for its players with its own version of a combat upgrade that upset the playerbase and the station exchange fiasco. At this point it really became it really was difficult to ignore how little respect soe has for its players and realize that with so many major revamps to their game that they just don't how to design games anymore.
Some day I really hope they clean house and get back to making kickass games and listening to their players again. So far that really hasn't happened.
those who say its lucas arts to blame for the nge haven't read the jeff freeman revelation archive.
again, the idea to drop the nge came from soe's developers and cheered by soe's executives.
lucas arts just gave the green light for it all - but we can't really blame them since for the past 5-10 years or so lucas has been approving everything and anything that comes their way - from undead soldiers in EU novels to inaccurate content in video games.
Sorry but I don't see reason to praise blizzard for "listening" to the whiners and changing their minds on RealID for their forums. The change would have cut back on so much of the shit you find on the internet and really the only people who appose the change are those who are afraid they wouldn't be able to make an ass of themselves online anymore.
I suggest you all go watch a video on gametrailers.com where they talk about this and pretty well come to the conclusion that the most vocal of us online are the douches who would suffer from the change because they'd no longer have an alias to hide behind... so who do you think really put up a big stink about RealID? Yeah, that's right. The trolls.
Full Sail University - Game Design
I still haven't re-activated my WoW account and frankly don't intend to. I know companies like Activision don't give up their plans because mere customers demand it.
Archlinux ftw
@Brainwalker
I think the new change to the Real ID and blizzard forums is going to display the posters Unique ID number that can be used to view all of your characters. This should get rid of people posting on level 1 alts and such, but I think you are right. BlizzardActivision is going to keep pushing this idea on the players.
Yes, Jeff's statements and the whole Nom Nom rant by Rubenfeld (edited to death on his site btw) lay a lot of blame at the feet of SOE. That being said, it reminds me of Murder on the Orient Express - everyone had their hands in this bloody mess.
AS for being back on topic - Blizzard reacted to their fanbase's demands. Not out of the graciousness of their hearts but rather the fear of revenue loss AND bad PR (having learned a thing or two form the SOE debacle - see numerous articles, forums, rants and chides for details). I give them credit for taking a step back for the moment. I expect another attempt down the road but as long as the media chooses to cover it and people spread the word - such acts are very difficult to get away with. SOE just happened to have a bit more control on the outlets due to advertising dollars and future dealings back then.
I think you are right Kefkah. To add to that, I suspect companies announce these wild controversal changes in order to get players to feel they won a victory when it gets scaled down.
Blizzard announces real names and players get upset. They retract that change and say they will just link something else that identifies players and everyone feels they won. Perhaps a bit tinfoil hat of me, but I just can't figure out this mess just yet.
Blizzard obviously has an agenda and I think you are right, they are going to keep pressing it.
I think you are comparing Apples to Oranges.
One is a topic that will affect all players, both curent and new.
The other is a game change that they knew would piss off players but they were willing to lose some for the possibility to gain more.
It would be a moot point to listen to players in the Sony scenario because they knew there would be dissent. They knew they would lose players. That was part of the equation.
But Blizzard's change was something that was more fundamental to all players involved.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Jeff Freeman (on this forum), Dan Rubenfeld (in his original blog post, where he told everyone to eat a dick if they didn't think the NGE was a great idea and only fialed because of a lack of marketing), and Alan Crosby (Brenlo, on the oboard, answering a question directly asking if LEC forced SOE to develop and implement the NGE) all outright stated they the NGE changes were not mandated by LEC and were concieved at SOE. LEC shares responsibility for the NGE being released, but they weren't the genesis of it, or the ones who pushed for it to happen.
Sorry mate...I totally disagree with you on this one. Yes - it would have cut down on the spam and trolls and douchebags...but that's not the right way to do it. Ban them or block IP addresses.
I think:
1) Blizzard was afraid of "cracking down" because, like most MMOs, the forums are infinitely more fun than some of the games we pay for and they KNEW that if they banned some of the more involved players, they'd lose them as customers.
2) This was about getting more money out of the customers...indirectly. Nobody will pay for your forum name, but companies will pay for your real name. They were trying to make RealID the next Facebook.
Face it - online forums are here to stay. Internet d-bags will only increase so companies need to learn to deal with them the proper way. My ID Online will never be given away "freely" for a f'king video game as there is simply no justification for them to use it to identify me to the "masses". TurboTax, Online banking, Travel...those are the places I'll use my true ID...not to play some stupid game. Also...no chance in hell I'd let my children give out their RL IDs to play some f'ing game.
The forum users may be some of the more passionate and vocal, but they're also the same d-bags who write player guides, FAQ's, Hints, tricks, performance tweaks, upcoming events etc etc etc!!!! For all the "negative" they may bring, the amount of good they do far outweighs it IMO.
No.
"Do not fret! Your captain is about to enter Valhalla!" - General Beatrix of Alexandria
"The acquisition of knowledge is of use to the intellect, for nothing can be loved or hated without first being known." - Leo da Vinci
Blizzard devs are sell-outs, while SOE devs are not.
However, Blizzard devs are better at doing their job than SOE devs are.
Good devs know what's up.
/Sigh. There are other things to talk about in an SWG forum...maybe SWG? By SWG I mean the game, not the patches from 5 years ago.
I can see there is no getting through, I'll just walk away slowly.
Total MMOs played: 274|Enjoyed: 9. >:|
So just moving on isnt an option?
WOW isnt great because it has 12 million players. WOW has 12 million players because its great.
Some people in this forum will start to give SOE a break when:
1. Smed resigns or is fired.
2. SWG-NGE closes. -or-
3. SWG classic servers are launched.
To be honest, as Daff said, it is more than just one game, it is the corporate culture of a bad gaming company that is still around, with the same management in place. And they continue to to try to do new shady stuff to customers and they think people won't remember the previous bad stuff they did, or give them a pass on it? Not bloody likely. There is a master list of all the things SOE lied or other shady things they did about around here somewhere.... read some of the stuff in there and decide how forgiving people should be.
As a company, you can do whatever you want with the products and IPs you control, but a company must also accept the consequences of those decisions. Especially in an industry where reputations stick with a company more than usual, SOE has reaped precisely what they have sown.
I bought a new Chevy pick up. It was a piece of shit. I no longer buy GM products. Does GM make good products? Maybe but they had their chance with me and I moved on. Do I care what they build or how well they do? Not in the least.
WOW isnt great because it has 12 million players. WOW has 12 million players because its great.
This annoys me. It is one thing to say that you dont like the current implementation of whatever game. But its another thing to want it to shut down purely out of spite. Which will be at the cost of the players who are currently enjoying it. Buy a moral compass please.
You are perhaps more willing to "move on" than others. And that is a personal choice.
However, It does not, in fact make them wrong for not doing so.
Did I say that my personal opinion? No. I am long gone from SWG and never going back. And from SOE as well.
As for people playing the current game, they are part of the problem, in my opinion, for NOT holding SOE accountable for all the crappy stuff they have ever done, and the poor way they treat customers. They play a barely functional, ruined game, take all the half lousy, buggy "new content" that is put in, and keep paying. Enabling SOE's bad behavior, by continuing to pay, only make SOE more likely to try the next cash grab. What was it called in another thread? "Battered Gamers Syndrome?" "Virtual Stockholme Syndrome?"
Fortunately, those few players still willing to pay for a far sub par MMO, SWG-NGE are getting fewer by the day. Something on the order of 98% of people that have EVER played SWG have cancelled, and all things considered, that is a good thing.
As for starting classic servers, what would that cost current players? Not a damn thing. It would even help them out by bringing more revenue into the game, but I guess you missed that one eh?
My moral compass is fine. Along with all the other people that have quit SWG/SOE game X after some unwanted change, outright lie or money grab.
SOE are the ones who should find one.
They will do anything to keep the community loyal. Know why? I do.
More players = more money
LAWL
End. =D
I'm not sure how discussing the history, present and future of the genre means someone did not move on. I enjoy discussing mmos and soe frequently finds their way into headlines and topics.
On the flip side, soe has no problems spamming me with "hey come back, see what we have changed", so I do and I keep finding out nothing has changed. Someday they might change their practices. Until that day I can only keep informed and be realisitic about current situations.
One does not need to turn a blind eye to move on or whatever it is you are trying to say.
Perhaps it was a bit misleading (my misunderstanding or poor wording?) when you said that you have seen people who never played swg, but they hate soe. It sort of reads that in order to have a negative opinion of soe you must have played swg. Still my comment was meant for more than just yourself, so I said "you guys".
That being said, just go to eq2flames.com if you think the nge is the only thing people have long memories about with soe. As I said earlier, the nge is just so massive it dwarfs everything else and people tend to focus on it and miss everything else soe does.
As for EQ2, you can try to rationalize it all you want, but there is change already happening on the live servers.
To begin with, removing the free trials is just a shitty thing to do. The live servers are already suffering population decline and removing anything that might help, not matter how slight, is a terrible thing to do to players. Especially when it is in reponse to hearing the desires of your customers! Players said no (for like the 1934031725th time) to full blown cash shops, so this was how soe repaid the customers for being honest. I don't think they players knew it was an either or option being presented by soe.
Now if you really think that EQ2 has not or will not change, just look at the current game update. Soe has already changed away from making more high level content to focusing on new player experience (the NPE if you will). Soe is making changes to EQ2X that are flowing over into the live game. Such as massively scaling down particle effects, chaning animations, redoing the UI, planning to revamp the classes (again), adding station cash directly to the ingame NPC vendors (something they said would never be done), etc. This is all being done to ramp up for the EQ2X service.
Players are begging for itemizaion, lag, pvp fixes, content, etc. See topic of the thread for relevance.
Again, this is in direct response to players saying no to full blown cash shops on the live servers. SOEs answer was to remove development time (paid for by their subscription dollars) and use it to create something they said they did not want. Think about that for a second. EQ2 players are losing content so that soe can make something they clearly said they do not want.
So yes, it is having an effect on the live game. Just like balancing raids and encounters will be affected by the F2P self rez potions and self cure potions. Both games are going to share one identical code base so whatever effects one will effect that other.
All of this is in direct support of the thread title.
SOE gets so much poor word of mouth references, because they give players so many reasons to.