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Is PvP going downhill in MMO's??

Evolution8Evolution8 Lancaster, CAPosts: 128Member

I've been trying to find a good game with fun PvP, Darkfall was ok at the beginning but got boring real quick, Mortal online is just laughable and not considered a real mmo to me and about 95% of it's subscribers, played Vanguard for 3 years on the PvP server and had a friggin blast tell SOE did what they do best and screwed the game over, I love FFA PvP and RvR, never tried Warhammer as the reviews and friends said it's terrible,AoC was fun tell level 80 bottlenecked, still thinking of trying it now with the new expansion,any of you have a suggestion for a good PvP game, All Points Bulletin will keep me going for awhile but im into the fantasy mmo pvp type, It just seems MMO game makers can't get it together and make a good PvP game, it very well could just be me but most games don't last long anymore, any suggestions would be appreciated

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Comments

  • EunuchmakerEunuchmaker Harlingen, TXPosts: 204Member

    Originally posted by Evolution8

    I've been trying to find a good game with fun PvP, Darkfall was ok at the beginning but got boring real quick, Mortal online is just laughable and not considered a real mmo to me and about 95% of it's subscribers, played Vanguard for 3 years on the PvP server and had a friggin blast tell SOE did what they do best and screwed the game over, I love FFA PvP and RvR, never tried Warhammer as the reviews and friends said it's terrible,AoC was fun tell level 80 bottlenecked, still thinking of trying it now with the new expansion,any of you have a suggestion for a good PvP game, All Points Bulletin will keep me going for awhile but im into the fantasy mmo pvp type, It just seems MMO game makers can't get it together and make a good PvP game, it very well could just be me but most games don't last long anymore, any suggestions would be appreciated

     I am not a fan of free-for-all, PVP anywhere you like games.

     

    Most new mmo games now have "battlegrounds" type PVP.

     

    As a result, I'd say PVP is going uphill.  All depends on who you ask. 

  • Evolution8Evolution8 Lancaster, CAPosts: 128Member

    Originally posted by Eunuchmaker

    Originally posted by Evolution8

    I've been trying to find a good game with fun PvP, Darkfall was ok at the beginning but got boring real quick, Mortal online is just laughable and not considered a real mmo to me and about 95% of it's subscribers, played Vanguard for 3 years on the PvP server and had a friggin blast tell SOE did what they do best and screwed the game over, I love FFA PvP and RvR, never tried Warhammer as the reviews and friends said it's terrible,AoC was fun tell level 80 bottlenecked, still thinking of trying it now with the new expansion,any of you have a suggestion for a good PvP game, All Points Bulletin will keep me going for awhile but im into the fantasy mmo pvp type, It just seems MMO game makers can't get it together and make a good PvP game, it very well could just be me but most games don't last long anymore, any suggestions would be appreciated

     I am not a fan of free-for-all, PVP anywhere you like games.

     

    Most new mmo games now have "battlegrounds" type PVP.

     

    As a result, I'd say PVP is going uphill.  All depends on who you ask. 

    Yea the battlegroup PvP games i try to avoid, not into that

  • CallsignVegaCallsignVega Chicago, ILPosts: 235Member Uncommon

    Sadly, PvP in MMORPG's is in a very sad state these days. No, I do not consider little playgrounds like instances and battlegrounds as "PvP". If you can hide away from PvP 100% of the time like you can in 99% of so called games that feature PvP, I don't even consider them having PvP.

    If you think about it the last few games that had decent open world PvP where at the beginning of the genre. Games like EQ and Shadowbane. Some of my favorite gaming times were back then when you had decent PvE yet could fight PvP and get attacked ANYWHERE. Made for great teamwork and kept you on your toes = exciting gameplay. Something incredibly lacking in current titles that people just don't understand. 

    Open world PvP games today like Darkfall and Mortal Online have great concepts but very poor execution. As a matter of fact, going down the future games list, I don't think there is a single MMORPG that has open world PvP. If they claim PvP, it is some watered down crap like arenas, instances or battlegrounds. I never understood why the vast majority of people would rather stand around in a circle jerk holding hands fighting only computer opponents. I guess a large part of that you can rack up to laziness, a lack of intelligence and a fear of confrontation.

    Right now I am playing EvE. Although a decent game, can get pretty boring considering once again most hide from PvP. Although you technically can attack and kill someone anywhere, you suicide in the process if it is high-sec. I think the game would be much better if there was no CONCORD or security status. Then again CCP would most likely lose a ton of carebear subscribers.

     

  • AgtSmithAgtSmith Sarasota, FLPosts: 1,498Member

    Originally posted by Evolution8

    Is PvP going downhill in MMO's??

     

    Was MMO PvP ever uphill?

     

    I contend that MMO PvP has pretty much always sucked, and probably always will suck, because of the natural imbalance of a game where level, classes, and gear are so important.  The fact of the matter is that in MMOs most every fight is far more about what you had (gear) and what you where (level, class) when the fight started rather than what you do during the fight.

    --------------------------------
    Achiever 60.00%, Socializer 53.00%, Killer 47.00%, Explorer 40.00%
    Intel Core i7 Quad, Intel X58 SLi, 6G Corsair XMS DDR3, Intel X-25 SSD, 3 WD Velociraptor SATA SuperTrak SAS EX8650 Array, OCZ 1250W PS, GTX 295, xFi, 32" 1080p LCD

  • Evolution8Evolution8 Lancaster, CAPosts: 128Member

    Good points all, the only other game I am currently looking at is Rift" Planes of Telara but currently there is not enough information regarding "If"  Rift will have an Open world PvP system, we can only hope so as the game looks allot like EQ and Vanguard, only time will tell i guess, really sucks we don't have anything to look forward to

  • ComplicationComplication Bonsall, CAPosts: 209Member

    mmo pvp is already downhill and hitting near the bottom. 

    people now a days are giant pussies.  they are scared to play a game where open world pvp is promoted.  they always argue, its just gank squads!!! you cant do anything!!!!

     

    bullshit..

     

    aoc has open world pvp.  yeah white sands and underhalls are slaugtherhouses because a minority of the ffa pvp players are douches and hang out in newbie areas. get past that shit and you find that there are people playing the game, grouping together, or attacking each other if they run into each other. 

    some guilds get together and ride around owning faces but what can you do? and not to mention its fun as fuck. 

    FOR EXAMPLE:

       i was on my necro killin mobs for a quest and this DT was doin the same thing. we kinda left each other alone and did what we had to do and once we both finished we destroyed each other. i won of course, nightfall ftw, but it makes mmo's a semblance of what they used to be.

     

    OH BUT BG'S ARE PVP! no they fuckin arent.  most of the damn mini games involve you killing a totem, capturing a flag/skull/bear ass/ or some other form of crap.  and maybe you will fight 1 or 2 people along the way or not at all.

    BEST PVP EVER!!!  and guess what, do that 9999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 times in a row to get some armor

    i had hope for sw:tor pvp wise but that looks like they are steering it directly into WoW territory

  • WarjinWarjin Harrisburg, PAPosts: 1,215Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Evolution8

    I've been trying to find a good game with fun PvP, Darkfall was ok at the beginning but got boring real quick, Mortal online is just laughable and not considered a real mmo to me and about 95% of it's subscribers, played Vanguard for 3 years on the PvP server and had a friggin blast tell SOE did what they do best and screwed the game over, I love FFA PvP and RvR, never tried Warhammer as the reviews and friends said it's terrible,AoC was fun tell level 80 bottlenecked, still thinking of trying it now with the new expansion,any of you have a suggestion for a good PvP game, All Points Bulletin will keep me going for awhile but im into the fantasy mmo pvp type, It just seems MMO game makers can't get it together and make a good PvP game, it very well could just be me but most games don't last long anymore, any suggestions would be appreciated

    I don't think so, I think pvp is getting better, sure not  as hardcore but more Fun IMO, FFA pvp is fun but to time cumbersome ,I like the way pvp is going,better polish and control over skills, less auto attack and more twitch play.

     

    Also i love world pvp but the problem with that is finding it, somedays i just want to attck players not spend 2 hours looking for it,  with Battleground pvp you get your pvp fix on demand, fast.

  • TweFojuTweFoju Saitama & Jakarta ( current )Posts: 1,013Member Uncommon

    infact i think FFA PVP is what most people are looking for, only to the dissapointment, so far, there are none of the FFA PVP MMO that have the right execution yet

     

    FFA PVP can be so much fun with the right execution and of course with the mind set of the community itself

    So What Now?

  • ChessackChessack Lynnwood, WAPosts: 978Member

    Originally posted by TweFoju

    infact i think FFA PVP is what most people are looking for, only to the dissapointment, so far, there are none of the FFA PVP MMO that have the right execution yet

    I will agree that few MMOs if any have good execution of the PVP element, especially those that allow FFA PVP.

     

    However, I do NOT agree that "most people" in the MMO audience are looking for FFA PVP.  If you read scientific surveys such as the ones that used to be done by Project Daedalus (by Nick Yee), you will see that the slight majority of MMO players don't like PVP at all, and the VAST majority of them absolutely depsies free-for-all settings.

     

    It's only the majority of FFA PVP lovers that are looking for FFA PVP.... which is a recursive criterion.

     

    C

  • Garvon3Garvon3 Worcester, MAPosts: 2,898Member

    Originally posted by Eunuchmaker

    Originally posted by Evolution8

    I've been trying to find a good game with fun PvP, Darkfall was ok at the beginning but got boring real quick, Mortal online is just laughable and not considered a real mmo to me and about 95% of it's subscribers, played Vanguard for 3 years on the PvP server and had a friggin blast tell SOE did what they do best and screwed the game over, I love FFA PvP and RvR, never tried Warhammer as the reviews and friends said it's terrible,AoC was fun tell level 80 bottlenecked, still thinking of trying it now with the new expansion,any of you have a suggestion for a good PvP game, All Points Bulletin will keep me going for awhile but im into the fantasy mmo pvp type, It just seems MMO game makers can't get it together and make a good PvP game, it very well could just be me but most games don't last long anymore, any suggestions would be appreciated

     I am not a fan of free-for-all, PVP anywhere you like games.

     

    Most new mmo games now have "battlegrounds" type PVP.

     

    As a result, I'd say PVP is going uphill.  All depends on who you ask. 

     

    There is no argument, PvP has gone way downhill, even battleground PvP. 

    Now, I don't mind FFA PvP combat, but I prefer the DAoC RvR model. Currently the only game to do RvR right (figures, they invented it). 

    DAoC had battlegrounds, but they weren't FPS rounds about getting the most points, they weren't silly pointless objectives where players would run past eachother on the way to eachothers castle instead of fighting.

    The battlegrounds were a persistant uninstanced zone where lower level players could compete against eachother for control of a central keep in the center. Owning this keep would give realm point and leveling bonuses to all players in the battleground's level gap throughout the game, so there was a good reason to have it. If you captured it, it stayed captured even if the battlegrounds were empty, until someone took it from you by force. Serious tactics came into play, or you could go rogue and form your own roving band of players, occasionally helping your own side, but mostly just looking for kills. The scale was pretty large too. 

     

    Now battlegrounds are just a laugh riot joke. 

    And RvR? How can a game from 2001 handle 500 man relic keep battles with naval combat and at least 8 kinds of siege engine, but modern games cap off at around 40?

     

    Darkfall was a breath of fresh air in the dying PvP market, but it wasn't enough. We need a DAoC 2. 

     

     

    And for the guy saying "PvP MMOs were never uphill and were never about skill" then you clearly didn't play DAoC. It was the second most popular MMO at its time, behind EverQuest. 

  • djazzydjazzy louisville, COPosts: 3,578Member

    MMO PvP, lol

    thanks for the laughs

  • KalafaxKalafax Gainesville, FLPosts: 521Member Uncommon

    God I wish, Im just praying all the pvp idiots will eventually burn themselves out of the genre and screw off and stop ruining MMORPGs

    If your gonna have PVP, it should be in a sandbox game where theres real consequences for you being a dick murderer, people complain about harsh penaltys, but if you do, your not really in it for pvpin, your in it for greifing and thats a sad way to get your rocks off.

    A real pvp game has pkers, and then the PLAYER base makes organizations and stop shte PKs from doing what they do, no Dev intervention, no balanacing because scrubs cant hold there own, and when you die that shit has penaltys

    Mess with the best, Die like the rest

  • ChessackChessack Lynnwood, WAPosts: 978Member

    Originally posted by Dalgor

    God I wish, Im just praying all the pvp idiots will eventually burn themselves out of the genre and screw off and stop ruining MMORPGs

    You would really think with all the awesome PVP games out there like Call of Duty and Left4Dead and various others, both on the console and the PC, that have exactly what these guys are looking for (balance, reliance on player "skill", etc), people who want to PVP hardcore would just play those. I'm constantly amazed that they keep trying to change a whole entire genre that's ill-suited to the kind of game they want to play, into their preference, when their preference already exists in so many other forms.  It's an odd kind of behavior, IMO.

     

    C

  • BallistaBallista Roseville, CAPosts: 117Member

    Play all the FFA pvp MMOs.

     

    If you don't find what your looking for, design your own game and gtfo of the other games qq'ing about how they don't fit the pvp you want. Also, try some FPS. Geezus pvp qq theory crafters and bloggers are so annoying.

  • Garvon3Garvon3 Worcester, MAPosts: 2,898Member

    Originally posted by Chessack

    Originally posted by Dalgor

    God I wish, Im just praying all the pvp idiots will eventually burn themselves out of the genre and screw off and stop ruining MMORPGs

    You would really think with all the awesome PVP games out there like Call of Duty and Left4Dead and various others, both on the console and the PC, that have exactly what these guys are looking for (balance, reliance on player "skill", etc), people who want to PVP hardcore would just play those. I'm constantly amazed that they keep trying to change a whole entire genre that's ill-suited to the kind of game they want to play, into their preference, when their preference already exists in so many other forms.  It's an odd kind of behavior, IMO.

     

    C

    You two do realize that the first two ever MMORPGs were PvP MMOs, right?

    You two do realize that PvP and PvE can exist without detracting from one another at all, right?

    You two do realize that you're acting like elitist morons?

    You two do realize that an FPS and an RPG are not even remotely the same, right?

    You two do realize that having a PvP portion to an MMO not only increases the lifespan and freshness of said MMO, but if interlaced with the PvE content, provides more content and "purpose" for everyone, right?

  • MarLMarL akron, OHPosts: 606Member

    Originally posted by AgtSmith

    Originally posted by Evolution8

    Is PvP going downhill in MMO's??

     

    Was MMO PvP ever uphill?

     

    I contend that MMO PvP has pretty much always sucked, and probably always will suck, because of the natural imbalance of a game where level, classes, and gear are so important.  The fact of the matter is that in MMOs most every fight is far more about what you had (gear) and what you where (level, class) when the fight started rather than what you do during the fight.

     I agree, but at least old mmos tried to include real pvp. Seems nowadays they will try to avoid having any paying customer "lose" at anything. If you cant lose whats the fun of winning?

    I will add that i believe pvp makes the game, but im not a fan of standard rpgs where levels determine who wins. ( im more of a mmofps/rts type of a guy)

    Own, Mine, Defend, Attack, 24/7

  • MMOrUSMMOrUS great yarmouthPosts: 414Member

    Originally posted by Evolution8

    I've been trying to find a good game with fun PvP, Darkfall was ok at the beginning but got boring real quick, Mortal online is just laughable and not considered a real mmo to me and about 95% of it's subscribers, played Vanguard for 3 years on the PvP server and had a friggin blast tell SOE did what they do best and screwed the game over, I love FFA PvP and RvR, never tried Warhammer as the reviews and friends said it's terrible,AoC was fun tell level 80 bottlenecked, still thinking of trying it now with the new expansion,any of you have a suggestion for a good PvP game, All Points Bulletin will keep me going for awhile but im into the fantasy mmo pvp type, It just seems MMO game makers can't get it together and make a good PvP game, it very well could just be me but most games don't last long anymore, any suggestions would be appreciated

     Just 1 point to raise, if you enjoyed Vanguards PvP for 3 yrs but then SoE screwed it up, can you tell us HOW? because I thought, and I believe alot of other ppl thought that SoE haven't done anything at all in Vanguard for years anyway, thus leaving your PvP experiences the same as it's always been.

    Edit. ok found out what SoE changed, a few typo's in the EULA, definately game breaking stuff =).

     

  • EmhsterEmhster MontrPosts: 916Member

    Originally posted by TweFoju

    infact i think FFA PVP is what most people are looking for, only to the dissapointment, so far, there are none of the FFA PVP MMO that have the right execution yet

     

    FFA PVP can be so much fun with the right execution and of course with the mind set of the community itself

    What is 'the right execution' when discussing of a FFA PVP ?

  • DKWFirstbornDKWFirstborn VantaaPosts: 32Member

    Yeah pvp has definetly gone downhill now that i am taking a break from pwning you all!

     

    But honestly, naah they haven't gone downhill their a bit lacking in imagination and poor in balance, poor in settings but not downhill. The people nowadays give old pvp dog like me a run for my money. Despite the gearfactor, abover all maters skill factor, many new dogs on the hill have tons of natural skill, which infact makes me feel a bit more competiting person aswell. However the poor choices, no ladder style pvp lists is something i hate. I might not be the best around nor the worst, but i'd like to see just how good i am! Anyway, I love pvp it's one of the best mmorpg factors ever, I am a roleplayer but I'm also one damn bloodhungry rper. What good is power if you can't hurt anybody's feelings or characters?

     

    Edit: Somebody mentioned that pvp should have high penalites and so on forth, I don't mind having large penalties and high costs on dying. I'd still pvp, i'd still break people, I'd still kill the most favoured group of victims: Grievers. How I love smacking grievers with ten ton hammer when they pick people who can't fight against em.  Like kicking somebody who just kicked a dog or a child. High pvp penalties on sandbox are heavens for grievers, whom usually ruins somebody's day and mood.

     

    Peace out!

    Kindest regards,

    DKW

  • IzureIzure Palm Bay, FLPosts: 518Member

    I heard someone say PVP idiots, so i am going to respond like this,

     

    All you carebearing, Old farts, RP'ing, Pve'ing Idiots need to stop thinking that PVP ruin MMO's.

     

    Sure some MMO's do not fit with PVP, but that does not mean there is no niche, in fact there is a big big niche for PVP'ing.

     

    And yes I do agree, PVP should be in sandboxes.

     

    Darkfall has wonderful PVP, best I have ever played, because it has RPG, and FPS elements and it is a sandbox.

    Warhammer 40k, looks fun as well, EVE has great PVP, hell even Pre-CU SWG had great PVP, taking over bases with a 80 vs 80(even tho it was a slideshow, it was fun as hell).

     

    Either way, you people who "hate" PVP in mmo's should not be saying PVP ruin MMO's or it belong it the FPS genre, that is just selfish and retarded on so many levels.

     

    Is this elementary or what? grow the fuck up, we all got different tastes.

    I like full loot PVP, because I LIKE A CHALLENGE in games, I know a lot of people want MMO's to be all warm and loving and easy, I DONT and a lot of others DO NOT, If football/basket was unchallenging and Easy and warm,loving, would you think millions of people watch in weekly? Hell fcking NO, and its a game, no different then a MMO GAME.

    Not all games need to be challenging, some people like easy walk through games,  that really never put them to the test.

    All they have to do is be like, O i got this level, I can do that!

    In a PVP game Like darkfall, a newb, If skilled can own a Vet now(with the magic nerf)

     

    I would say your best bet is Darkfall, the population recently just skyrocketed IMO, I can not going anywhere without finding PVP, and it sucks because my bank is full of loots, so I need to sit at my bank and clean it everytime I kill someone :(

     

    /rant OFF

    Fact is, People love PVP, EVE is the best game that fits PVP and PVE and Crafting in ONE, I wish Darkfall would be that, but like others said, PVP should involve consquences, especially in a FULL LOOT GAME like darkfall, not much consquences in Darkfall at the moment, but I am a vet and I do not kill newbs, and I know the MAIN Vet alliances do not.

     

    The darkfall community matured so much from launch, and people who think it is still the worse, are the same idiots who troll and hate the game and yet to play it most likely(the childish retards I was talking about)!

  • KalafaxKalafax Gainesville, FLPosts: 521Member Uncommon

    Dont try to group me with that guy, or anyone else for that matter  you chode. Yea I do sound like an elitist asshole because I am, but dont try to twist my words, its not that I dont want PvP cause I do, but games dont even do near pvp anymore.

    Todays games have areas for you to fight in, rankings, no death penaltys, and its mainly just a gear grind. None of that is real player versus player shit.

    Oh and no, the first MMO's wernt pvp MMO, you kno that term that doesnt even exist? the first MMOs had PvP yes, because every MMO should have PvP, but its not supposed to be a seperate feature and the thing Devs and a whole demographic focus on, PvP is just something that happens in a static existing world where shit changes, factions rival, and resources can be gained, instead people have turned it into a fucking arcade game of pvp and thats pathetic to do to our Genre

    Mess with the best, Die like the rest

  • djazzydjazzy louisville, COPosts: 3,578Member

    The biggest problem with mmo pvp is that it is unbalanced at its core. If you like unbalanced pvp, which a lot of people do, then it isn't a bad thing.

  • corpusccorpusc Chattanooga, TNPosts: 1,330Member

    Originally posted by AgtSmith

    Originally posted by Evolution8

    Is PvP going downhill in MMO's??

     

    Was MMO PvP ever uphill?

     

    I contend that MMO PvP has pretty much always sucked, and probably always will suck, because of the natural imbalance of a game where level, classes, and gear are so important.  The fact of the matter is that in MMOs most every fight is far more about what you had (gear) and what you where (level, class) when the fight started rather than what you do during the fight.

     

    that's the truth.  its just a fundamentally extremely flawed concept to begin with.

    The End
    ---------------------------
    i don't expect to like Darkfall, altho i may like it MORE than other MMOs. i know it is gonna have a very frustrating level of grind to it, even if its significantly less than most. waiting for a pure FAST action virtual world. dice rolling & character levels (even "skills") IN COMBAT should have never carried over from pencil & paper to a computer that can reasonably model 3D spaces and objects

  • Garvon3Garvon3 Worcester, MAPosts: 2,898Member

    Originally posted by corpusc

    Originally posted by AgtSmith


    Originally posted by Evolution8

    Is PvP going downhill in MMO's??

     

    Was MMO PvP ever uphill?

     

    I contend that MMO PvP has pretty much always sucked, and probably always will suck, because of the natural imbalance of a game where level, classes, and gear are so important.  The fact of the matter is that in MMOs most every fight is far more about what you had (gear) and what you where (level, class) when the fight started rather than what you do during the fight.

     

    that's the truth.  its just a fundamentally extremely flawed concept to begin with.

    Fighting other players is a findamentally flawed concept in an RPG... ok then. Guess half the RPGs out there are just flat out wrong then. And those MMORPGs that invented this genre, guess they were wrong too. 

    Why do all you PvE snobs try to comment about PvP when its likely you've never even played more than one game with PvP in it, and it was probably a PvE game with PvP tacked on as an afterthought. (Only a PvE game would be gear based to that extent) 

  • godzilr1godzilr1 scottsdale, AZPosts: 550Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Izure

    I like full loot PVP, because I LIKE A CHALLENGE in games, I know a lot of people want MMO's to be all warm and loving and easy, I DONT and a lot of others DO NOT, If football/basket was unchallenging and Easy and warm,loving, would you think millions of people watch in weekly? Hell fcking NO, and its a game, no different then a MMO GAME.

     

     I think what a lot of people may have a problem with is the Full loot part the hardcore PVP-ers always try and push.  I personally like PVP, i like the open battlefields and the strategic base capture stuff, but if i loose or die i don't want my gear taken.

    Now back to your quote and the above idea, your saying people watch these sporting events because of the competition, which i agreed,  BUT when the losing team is bested, they do not have their uniforms taken and forced to walk out of the staduim nude and broke.  PVP is fun when it's a challenge it agreed, i just dont feel you need to take everything they own to make yourself feel better in an online video game.  This is a time investment ant attachment to people and their characters, if you make the time investment easy or the connection to the character easy to loose, people just don't care to stay.

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