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Anyone else not going to be satisfied with MMOs until "skill" is added into the gameplay?

BioNutBioNut College Station, TXPosts: 414Member

I have been playing MMOs for a long time (Aceron's Call was my first) and I have never really been satisfied by the gameplay.  Well, why play them you ask? To be honest, I play them mostly to relax and have have some nice casual multiplayer with friends. I also play them for story and roleplaying purposes. But this said I would really like an MMO to come out that is not for casual gamers but for hardcore gamers.

 

But wait, wait!!!??!!! WoW has plenty Hardcore gamerzzz doesn't it?

Short answer= No, mmo hardcore people are NOT hardcore gamers. That thought is laughable.

Long answer= Hardcore gamers are people who enjoy games that require skill, not time commitment. (think street fighter, Call of Duty, japanese top down shooters).

This is really the crux of my issue with MMOs. They require absolutely no skill at all. I mean, there isnt a single open world MMO thats PvP or PvE  doesn't boil down to who has better gear, higher levels, better traits, etc.

I want to see a guy tank the biggest boss in the game wearing nothing at all because he is just that FREAKING good. I wanna see an underdog win because he has a flawless fight against a better geared character. I want to get ganked by three other people and end up killing them all because I am just that freaking good. I want skill to matter and gear to be a bonus.

That way players can truely become legendary not for being "first to" but for being epic. For fighting against all odds and winning. Until then MMOs will continue to be casual "side attractions" and stuck in the stone ages they find themselves in now.

I will keep playing though. Its nice to have some carebear games to play too. :)

 

Before the flaming starts this is a thought piece, I am primarily a twitch gamer, and I wonder how many like minded people are out there like me.

Playing: Tera, BF3, ME3

Waiting on: Guild Wars 2

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Comments

  • aleosaleos na, INPosts: 1,863Member Uncommon
  • uquipuuquipu Roma, PAPosts: 1,516Member

    On youtube, there are dozens of WoW pvp videos of people who are so good that they fight naked, eg, without equipment against fully geared opponents. And they win.
    .
    What is skill exactly? Is pushing a button at the right time a skill?

    Well shave my back and call me an elf! -- Oghren

  • SinellaSinella BudapestPosts: 340Member Uncommon

    Most of the MMOs out there are MMORPGs, and your concept doesn't fit the RPG part. Playing an MMORPG means that people can be something they are not in real...even a 70 years old man can play a young, strong, fast warrior. Adding real life skills into MMORPGs would ruin the original concept of these games.

    MMOs without RPG are different questions, real life skills can work there.

  • AthcearAthcear Washington, DCPosts: 420Member

    What do you mean by skill, and how does it differ from "practice"?  Most arguments I see about skill are about how pepople who don't play very often should win over those who do, without having to put in time.  You know, without practice.

    Important facts:
    1. Free to Play games are poorly made.
    2. Casuals are not all idiots, but idiots call themselves casuals.
    3. Great solo and group content are not mutually exclusive, but they suffer when one is shoved into the mold of the other. The same is true of PvP and PvE.
    4. Community is more important than you think.

  • ThomasN7ThomasN7 87.18.7.148 1, NJPosts: 6,690Member

    If you want skill then tell developers to stop making mmos with premade skills.

    30
  • ThorkuneThorkune Eastern, KYPosts: 1,828Member Uncommon

    Look up the youtube video where a wow rogue solos patchwerk. It took him hours, but he used tactics and skill to do it.

  • SovrathSovrath Boston Area, MAPosts: 18,453Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by BioNut

    Before the flaming starts this is a thought piece, I am primarily a twitch gamer, and I wonder how many like minded people are out there like me.

     

    I think that's where the rift starts. "Twitch" players over other types of players.

    I'll admit I like a more visceral combat experience but I'm not sure if I want my mmo's to become fps games.

    It seems that mmos' have become attractive to players who like fps type of combat and they chafe because of how mmo's usually run.

    Even though there is a closing gap of technical difficulties due to latency I know there are players out there who just don't have the fps mindset and will not be interested in stripping away the skills and gear for what essentially will be quake but in an open world.

  • VirusDancerVirusDancer Brandon, FLPosts: 3,649Member

    Two things...

    1)  GearScore in WoW proves the point that "gear" is not skill and a lesser geared person can outperform a better geared person.  Gear is the potential to perform - not the guarantee of performance.

    2)  There have been countless discussions and arguments in regard to twitch gaming, the different types of skill - some twitch, some not - and how saying that MMORPGs do not require "skill" is off base.

    It usually ends up in a battle of semantics, with the winner being the one most skilled in the English language... not skilled in typing.

    I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?

    Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%

  • BioNutBioNut College Station, TXPosts: 414Member

    Originally posted by uquipu

    On youtube, there are dozens of WoW pvp videos of people who are so good that they fight naked, eg, without equipment against fully geared opponents. And they win.

    .

    What is skill exactly? Is pushing a button at the right time a skill?

    are those toons op classes? Above the level of others? I will search them out.

     

    Skill is twitch, strategy and spacial understanding all at once. For gaming you throw in hand eye coordination (twitch)

     

    Much like any sport, take the best Call of Duty, Halo players or the best Streetfighter players and you will have some of the most skilled gamers in the world. Id even say starcraft (stategy players) because those games require quick thinking.

    MMOs are getting pretty good at the strategy part and even some with the spacial (sp?) understanding (realizing where mobs are ccing n such) but the twitch element is missing.  You know you suck at call of duty because you are at the bottom of the scoreboard. In every mmo ive played the outcome of the battle between two identical classes has nothing to do with actual skill and everything to do with item build and luck (ie dice roll).

    Playing: Tera, BF3, ME3

    Waiting on: Guild Wars 2

  • SuperXero89SuperXero89 Amory, MSPosts: 2,544Member Uncommon

    I think it's safe to say that modern MMORPGs do not follow this model, but I've always felt that mmorpgs originated as social experiments, where player interaction is valued over player skill.  Even today, mmorpgs are a type of video game which requires a retention rate of a critical mass of players, and devs see fit to maintain that retention rate as best as they can by making a game which can, in some form, be accesibile to all players.  If an mmorpg is released which requires as much skill to play as online Starcraft, Quake III, or Tekken, then I can't see that game attracting a very large playerbase.

  • deniterdeniter LappeenrantaPosts: 804Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Sinella

    Most of the MMOs out there are MMORPGs, and your concept doesn't fit the RPG part. Playing an MMORPG means that people can be something they are not in real...even a 70 years old man can play a young, strong, fast warrior. Adding real life skills into MMORPGs would ruin the original concept of these games.

    MMOs without RPG are different questions, real life skills can work there.

    I agree. IMO, MMORPG's should be all about a time spent in your character. There shouldn't be limits in your characters power, skills, levels, etc.. All this PvP crap ruins the whole RPG part of a game when everyone should be equally powerful for smashing each others faces. There is already a different genre for that and it's called FPS.

  • BioNutBioNut College Station, TXPosts: 414Member

    Originally posted by Sovrath

    Originally posted by BioNut



    Before the flaming starts this is a thought piece, I am primarily a twitch gamer, and I wonder how many like minded people are out there like me.

     

    I think that's where the rift starts. "Twitch" players over other types of players.

    I'll admit I like a more visceral combat experience but I'm not sure if I want my mmo's to become fps games.

    It seems that mmos' have become attractive to players who like fps type of combat and they chafe because of how mmo's usually run.

    Even though there is a closing gap of technical difficulties due to latency I know there are players out there who just don't have the fps mindset and will not be interested in stripping away the skills and gear for what essentially will be quake but in an open world.

     

    We are a ways away from being able to have action oriented combat yes. Doesnt mean I dont want it :P.  Also not all games should be "twitch" just like not all MMOs should be theme park :) .

     

    When you can tank a raid boss, drink a coke, eat spaghetti and look at pron online I'd say the game doesnt require skill.

    Playing: Tera, BF3, ME3

    Waiting on: Guild Wars 2

  • maltosmaltos Marstons Mills, MAPosts: 94Member

    Isn't the "skill" in any RPG to optimize your character as you see fit?

    So I duno using gear and skills to achieve this?

    I understand your point to an extent, except that this is what mmoRPGs are. It is creating a character, outfitting him with gear, building his/her skills and utilizing them at the right time. As much as I hate to admit it, even WoW takes "skill" because you have to know the strengths and weaknesses of the respective class. You need to know when to strike and what abilities to use. So you concept of "skill" might result in more posts if you state more clearly what you mean by "skill".

    I agree 100% that there is a lack in "creativity" amongst gamers as they find a build that works and run with it. In diablo 2 days you had control over your characters stats AND skills AND gear. This results in more "skill" to ensure you balanced mana, with your skills and gear. 

    In the end class based games result in rock, paper, scissors. An MMO requiring "skill" will take some time to make, as it would have to be a classless game. Which may also result in the same outcome.

    Depending on the FPS it takes skill, however to be fair most FPS are twitch anyways. It is the same concept. Unlock your guns until you have the strongest, then go pillage. It is like this in CoD, BFBC even the days of CS. And just like you get the people who can't think for themselves and just choose the winning build in MMOs, you get the same with FPS players using grenade launchers and 1 shot sniper rifles. :)

    -Maltos-

  • BioNutBioNut College Station, TXPosts: 414Member

    Originally posted by Sinella

    Most of the MMOs out there are MMORPGs, and your concept doesn't fit the RPG part. Playing an MMORPG means that people can be something they are not in real...even a 70 years old man can play a young, strong, fast warrior. Adding real life skills into MMORPGs would ruin the original concept of these games.

    MMOs without RPG are different questions, real life skills can work there.

    You sir are correct :).

    I meant to mean MMOs in general. What I am imagining are true MMOfps or MMOgod of warish games.

     

     

     

     

    ps. What about Mass Effect 2 though? Is it not an RPG since it has twich shooting?

    Playing: Tera, BF3, ME3

    Waiting on: Guild Wars 2

  • BioNutBioNut College Station, TXPosts: 414Member

    Originally posted by bigsmiff

    Look up the youtube video where a wow rogue solos patchwerk. It took him hours, but he used tactics and skill to do it.

     

    I need to watch this.

    Playing: Tera, BF3, ME3

    Waiting on: Guild Wars 2

  • NytakitoNytakito Westminster, COPosts: 381Member

    There are MMO's out there that are starting to incorportate player skill into the standard MMO formula.  Problem is, once you add any kind of character progression, you wind up with a situation where player skill gets a "boost" from character stats.

    Not to mention that most people who cry for these hardcore skill games, generally play them, only to realize that they suck, so then the come to these forums complaining the game is infact not skill based, but gear based etc. hoping that people will reply agreeing with them so they don't feel so bad about sucking.  That's just my opinion though.

    "If I'd asked my customers what they wanted, they'd have said a faster horse." - Henry Ford

  • project8sixproject8six Bellevue, WAPosts: 271Member

    RPG or character building goes against skill completely. the more time invest makes your char more powerful right so that takes away the majority of the skill. level playing fields like counter strike or starcraft is where skill comes into play. time investment = win mmo

    die. <3

  • BioNutBioNut College Station, TXPosts: 414Member

    Originally posted by SuperXero89

    I think it's safe to say that modern MMORPGs do not follow this model, but I've always felt that mmorpgs originated as social experiments, where player interaction is valued over player skill.  Even today, mmorpgs are a type of video game which requires a retention rate of a critical mass of players, and devs see fit to maintain that retention rate as best as they can by making a game which can, in some form, be accesibile to all players.  If an mmorpg is released which requires as much skill to play as online Starcraft, Quake III, or Tekken, then I can't see that game attracting a very large playerbase.

     

    I agree and with network limitations they have stayed as such. But, what about the future? We are getting faster internet connections and maybe an open world "borderlands" MMOFPS could suck in some of the 8million halo players or 7million CoD players?

     

    It really is the MMORPG combat that is keeping those players away fro massively multiplayer games.

    Playing: Tera, BF3, ME3

    Waiting on: Guild Wars 2

  • jdreamjdream KabinburiPosts: 80Member

    Originally posted by Athcear

    What do you mean by skill, and how does it differ from "practice"?  Most arguments I see about skill are about how pepople who don't play very often should win over those who do, without having to put in time.  You know, without practice.

          ^

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  • deniterdeniter LappeenrantaPosts: 804Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by project8six

    RPG or character building goes against skill completely. the more time invest makes your char more powerful right so that takes away the majority of the skill. level playing fields like counter strike or starcraft is where skill comes into play. time investment = win mmo

    If only we could make developers to realise that. :/

  • KyleranKyleran Tampa, FLPosts: 19,981Member Uncommon

    OP is looking for an MMOFPS which is a genre largely unexplored by developers (outside of a few games like Planetside) largely because if a player really wants to test their "twitch" skills they normally play FPS games.

    Combat is a secondary goal for most players of MMORPG's, they appeal to people interested in interacting socially and not necessarily just to kill each other.

    Could the genre use a few games like the OP wants? Sure, but its just one of the many unfilled niches that doesn't really appeal to large development houses who want their games to appeal to the broadest possible audience.

    In my day MMORPG's were so hard we fought our way through dungeons in the snow, uphill both ways.
    "I don't have one life, I have many lives" - Grunty
    Still currently "subscribed" to EVE, and only EVE!!!
    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon

  • BioNutBioNut College Station, TXPosts: 414Member

    Originally posted by deniter

    Originally posted by Sinella

    Most of the MMOs out there are MMORPGs, and your concept doesn't fit the RPG part. Playing an MMORPG means that people can be something they are not in real...even a 70 years old man can play a young, strong, fast warrior. Adding real life skills into MMORPGs would ruin the original concept of these games.

    MMOs without RPG are different questions, real life skills can work there.

    I agree. IMO, MMORPG's should be all about a time spent in your character. There shouldn't be limits in your characters power, skills, levels, etc.. All this PvP crap ruins the whole RPG part of a game when everyone should be equally powerful for smashing each others faces. There is already a different genre for that and it's called FPS.

     

    You could still roleplay in a world dominated by skill. There would be a pecking order though and you would need to practice. I dont think this would be a bad situation because it mirrors how life is for most human beings and we still have people who are sports superstars and people who still enjoy playing sports even thought they suck

     

    IE. Tiger Woods playing golf = really good,  Me playing golf = horrible :P

    Playing: Tera, BF3, ME3

    Waiting on: Guild Wars 2

  • NeanderthalNeanderthal Posts: 1,606Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by uquipu

    What is skill exactly? Is pushing a button at the right time a skill?

     That's a very good question.

    Personally I don't think "skill" has to mean twitchy shooter skills and I wouldn't particularly want that in a MMORPG.  But there is that other type of skill which mostly involves situational awarness and doing the right things at the right times.  So far I don't think any game has fully explored the possibilities of that type of skill. 

    There really could be a lot more intricacy to it.  There could be a system with a lot of reactionary give and take between opponents.  You see that your opponent is preparing to perform a certain move and have one second to decide how you will react or attack before both of your moves execute.  The results of that flurry of combat could create advantages or vulnerabilities which might make certain other moves potentially more effective and so on.  Not twitchy but it would require you to really pay attention to what's happening and make quick decisions based on the changing circumstances.

    So far as I know MMORPGs have only just barely scratched the surface of what could be done along those lines.

  • GrayGhost79GrayGhost79 Webster, MAPosts: 4,813Member

    Originally posted by BioNut

    Originally posted by Sovrath


    Originally posted by BioNut



    Before the flaming starts this is a thought piece, I am primarily a twitch gamer, and I wonder how many like minded people are out there like me.

     

    I think that's where the rift starts. "Twitch" players over other types of players.

    I'll admit I like a more visceral combat experience but I'm not sure if I want my mmo's to become fps games.

    It seems that mmos' have become attractive to players who like fps type of combat and they chafe because of how mmo's usually run.

    Even though there is a closing gap of technical difficulties due to latency I know there are players out there who just don't have the fps mindset and will not be interested in stripping away the skills and gear for what essentially will be quake but in an open world.

     

    We are a ways away from being able to have action oriented combat yes. Doesnt mean I dont want it :P.  Also not all games should be "twitch" just like not all MMOs should be theme park :) .

     

    When you can tank a raid boss, drink a coke, eat spaghetti and look at pron online I'd say the game doesnt require skill.

    ? you realize action oriented combat is already coming right? 

    APB

    DFO 

    MO are just some that are out now or about to come out with more action oriented combat systems. 

    More are on there way, some at the end of the year and some coming out next year or the year after. 

     

    The days of watching hulu while you play every MMO on the market looks to be ending soon thankfully lol. 

  • MardyMardy hollywood, CAPosts: 2,213Member

    You won't see a lot of MMO"s with twitch fps gameplay because companies want to make money, and not to cater to a small niche playerbase.  A lot of the so called "hardcore PvPers" aren't even good at twitch gameplay, so you are really looking at a small sector of the playerbase that may or may not even embrace a MMO with twitch fps.

     

    I played AC1 darktide back during the early 2000's and it was great fun.  Turbine didn't design the game to be twtich but it turned out that way.  Through a glitch or two in the game, people were able to twitch play.  Now while that was fun for me, it wasn't for a lot of the people.  As you could see, AC1 catered to a very small niche playerbase, awhile games like EQ and DAOC went on to capture a large percentage of the MMO playerbase....both PvE and PvP.

     

    So for you to see more twitch MMO's, you need to either somehow be able to convince companies to create games for a small niche playerbase, or you need to have a lot of money to fund your own game.

     

    I think all MMO's have some sort of skills attached to it.  But perhaps OP should've replaced "skill" in the subject with "twitch" because that's what he's looking for.  Being able to twtich doesn't make you more "skilled" than the other, it simply makes you be able to twitch better than the average keyboard turner.  I've seen plenty of twitch fps players absolutely suck at RTS strategy games. 

    EQ1-AC1-DAOC-FFXI-L2-EQ2-WoW-DDO-GW-LoTR-VG-WAR-GW2-ESO

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