POLL: 'Emphasized' Grouping

Hyanmen

Now we have the other thread already, but this isn't the same thing.

Basically, would you play a game where progression via grouping would be significantly faster than soloing (that everyone would choose to do it if they could), but soloing would still be an option and you would never be required to group to progress?

To add to this, the grouping in this game would be considered 'casual' in a way that it doesn't demand so much from you, like forcing you to play for large chunks of time at once, and there wouldn't be unacceptable LFG times. It would also have mechanics that support grouping, such as co-operative skills, and it wouldn't be just about having 2-20 individuals hacking on a same monster, but actual group working together to take said monster down. 

twrule

I doubt there are too many out there who wouldn't play a game that encouraged grouping over soloing.  Most mmos ever realeased do to some degree.  You might want to be careful how you define this though.  If grouping is really "significantly faster" than soloing, at what point does that become "forced" grouping?  The solo game would have to be a brisk enough pace that someone would reasonably want to play the entire way through like that - which means the grouping game would have to be very fast to the point where people might run out of content quickly.  

Maybe "noticeably" faster would be a better word?  Same basic meaning perhaps, better frame?

Venger

I would but the only issue I could see is making group maneuvers overly complicated.  LOTRO does good with it's fellowship maneuvers.  If you go to crazy then the leet nerds would kill grouping with their piss poor "OMFG UZ NOOB U DON'T HAVE ALL 300 MANEUVERS MEMORIZED" attitudes.

Ihmotepp

Originally posted by twrule

 If grouping is really "significantly faster" than soloing, at what point does that become "forced" grouping? 

 

This will always be subjective. For some, if you gain 1 xp point more in a group, and it takes you one less second of play time to gain a level in a group  versus solo, that will be "forced grouping". 

 

Hyanmen

Originally posted by twrule

I doubt there are too many out there who wouldn't play a game that encouraged grouping over soloing.  Most mmos ever realeased do to some degree.  You might want to be careful how you define this though.  If grouping is really "significantly faster" than soloing, at what point does that become "forced" grouping?  The solo game would have to be a brisk enough pace that someone would reasonably want to play the entire way through like that - which means the grouping game would have to be very fast to the point where people might run out of content quickly.  

Maybe "noticeably" faster would be a better word?  Same basic meaning perhaps, better frame?

I don't see a difference with the two. 

There's a point when soloing will become so slow that most people don't consider it to be "worth it" though. 

You make a good point though- the game must be made with grouper's terms, because they will be the ones to hit the cap first.

Dibdabs

When I tried out Warhammer I was impressed with the 'Public Quest' concept, where simply by virtue of being in the right area the game treated everyone in it as being part of a sort of virtual group.  Everyone joined in, everybody got credit for the quest completion and no actual group was needed.  As a habitual soloer I loved it, because you could stay as long as you wished, repeating the event if you wanted to but sometimes just being there as a slightly higher level player to give a smallish 'group' a hand.  Brilliant concept.

deviliscious

This is exactly how it should be, Emphasized grouping isn't forced grouping.  That is how it was from the beginining, except people back then grouped in order to stay alive in PVP zones, now that there are so many PVER's they long for the days of a " needed group " to survive much of the time in order to make it not feel so lonely.  So yes giving a benefit to grouping but  allowing it to also be soloed and take longer is the solution.

 For me though.. I could care less about PVE, everyone ALREADY groups in PVP zones. I  am content playing a game where I never have to hit an NPC ever and can train only on other players. But to each their own. Whatever floats your boat. For me it is competition, the challenge of the battle,  unpredictability and taking risks.. I just do not get that feeling from AI.

Phry

I can understand why some players do solo, for short periods of time or whatever, but given that MMO's are not single player games, i dont see why people would play an MMO and not expect to be playing with other people, the challenge really is to create group orientated content in the game that is fun. whether you get xp faster or not, imo, is just icing on the cake..

nariusseldon

I like this idea. I like grouping .. but solo needs to be there so i can play 15 min when i want to.

And there needs to be a tool like WOW dungeon finder so you can find a group with no pain. I found taht i enjoy leveling by group in dungeons more than soloing quests.

Hyanmen

Originally posted by Dibdabs

When I tried out Warhammer I was impressed with the 'Public Quest' concept, where simply by virtue of being in the right area the game treated everyone in it as being part of a sort of virtual group.  Everyone joined in, everybody got credit for the quest completion and no actual group was needed.  As a habitual soloer I loved it, because you could stay as long as you wished, repeating the event if you wanted to but sometimes just being there as a slightly higher level player to give a smallish 'group' a hand.  Brilliant concept.

Yes. When I think of soloing content in an MMO like this, I think of public quests and FFXI's campaign system. Both offer a solution for soloers without taking away the "grouping" factor, so it would fit a game like this very well.

Murashu

I'm all for anything that encourages grouping in an MMO. I am sick of all the 'forced soloing' games that we have on the market today and had to subscribe to a subpar quality game (VG) just to enjoy challenging group content again.

Quirhid

Why can't it be just normal grouping? The added XP gain from grouping comes naturally since usually the sum is greater than the characters themselves. There's no need for any kind of "boost" grouping up or discouragement for solo players.

 

For a powergamer like myself (or whatever you want to call it), any boost for grouping means it is a must. The less efficient way is not even an option. So it feels the same as forced grouping.

gauge2k3

I still can't understand why people want to play multiplayer games by themselves, so yes.

Hyanmen

Originally posted by Quirhid

 For a powergamer like myself (or whatever you want to call it), any boost for grouping means it is a must. The less efficient way is not even an option. So it feels the same as forced grouping.

The efficient way is always the best one. But it goes much further than "exp/hour". "Normal" grouping in the way you mean it can also be considered 'emphasizing' soloing. 

Which is fine and all, and what I'm proposing is not a end-all solution and should not be. It is an option. A choice, as with "normal" grouping games too. You choose, everyone wins.

Kenaoshi

You pretty much described what Guild Wars 2 MAY BE

Hyanmen

Originally posted by Kenaoshi

You pretty much described what Guild Wars 2 MAY BE

Kinda, but what I consider "soloing" in this case in a 'emphasized grouping' game is what GW2's "grouping" would be like. They're taking it to right direction at least, +rep for that.

Sovrath

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

Originally posted by twrule

 If grouping is really "significantly faster" than soloing, at what point does that become "forced" grouping? 

 

This will always be subjective. For some, if you gain 1 xp point more in a group, and it takes you one less second of play time to gain a level in a group  versus solo, that will be "forced grouping". 

 

Well, here's a thought,

I've been doing a bit more grouping lately and you know what? "me" the soloer groups for the sake of doing a run with players. But the "groupers" complain about not getting enough experience.

So let's play that one again shall we?

"I" the soloer who prefers to solo but when grouped doesn't have to get experience or rewards but is happy to group for the sake of grouping listened to "pro-groupers" who kvetched about too little experience or not getting any experience.

Maybe we need to start another topic solely about groupers because it seems to me that the solo players group for the fun of it and that the groupers are more concerend over rewards and progression. They just want everyone to be concerned together.

As far as the other gentleman's comment about "why people play multi-player games alone" I believe this has been answered enough times that if I had a dime for every time it has been answered I'd be rich.

Which leads me to believe that:

A, they haven't seen the explanations in millions of threads or

B, they put their hands over their eyes and refuse to accept the reason because it's just beyond the pale and unpossible.

So in the spirit of the thread, it is possible to have a game where people can group or solo. Lineage 2 did it quite well. Some areas are group related and have a chance of nice drops and some areas one can solo.

All drops can be sold so if a soloer doesn't get the nice drop he can buy it off of someone who wants to sell it.

And everyone is happy.

MMO_Doubter

Okay. Time to be perfectly clear.

Emphasizing grouping won't be enough to improve the community or the quality of the groups.

As long as there are players in the game who prefer to solo (grouping only because of better rewards) they will drag down the gaming experience for those who prefer to group.

I am not talking people who solo when they can't get a decent group or even a buddy to quest with. We all have that happen at times.

I am talking about people who want to solo most - if not all of the time. I do not want those people in the game I am playing, and the only way to keep them out is to have a game which punishes soloing harshly.

Yoottos'Horg

Originally posted by Hyanmen

Now we have the other thread already, but this isn't the same thing.

Basically, would you play a game where progression via grouping would be significantly faster than soloing (that everyone would choose to do it if they could), but soloing would still be an option and you would never be required to group to progress?

To add to this, the grouping in this game would be considered 'casual' in a way that it doesn't demand so much from you, like forcing you to play for large chunks of time at once, and there wouldn't be unacceptable LFG times. It would also have mechanics that support grouping, such as co-operative skills, and it wouldn't be just about having 2-20 individuals hacking on a same monster, but actual group working together to take said monster down. 

 

My opinion?

 

It's called WoW. I'm just saying...

Sovrath

Originally posted by MMO_Doubter

Okay. Time to be perfectly clear.

Emphasizing grouping won't be enough to improve the community or the quality of the groups.

As long as there are players in the game who prefer to solo (grouping only because of better rewards) they will drag down the gaming experience for those who prefer to group.

I am not talking people who solo when they can't get a decent group or even a buddy to quest with. We all have that happen at times.

I am talking about people who want to solo most - if not all of the time. I do not want those people in the game I am playing, and the only way to keep them out is to have a game which punishes soloing harshly.

I think that plenty of solo players are more than willing to group for the sake of grouping and not to get better rewards. As I just said my experience is the exact opposite. Gruopers are more concerned over getting xp and rewards and aren't willing to forgo them to be in a group and soloers are just happey to be in a group and have a good joint experience.

MMO_Doubter

Originally posted by Sovrath

Well, here's a thought,

I've been doing a bit more grouping lately and you know what? "me" the soloer groups for the sake of doing a run with players. But the "groupers" complain about not getting enough experience.

What makes you think they are groupers?

So let's play that one again shall we?

"I" the soloer who prefers to solo but when grouped doesn't have to get experience or rewards but is happy to group for the sake of grouping listened to "pro-groupers" who kvetched about too little experience or not getting any experience.

Maybe we need to start another topic solely about groupers because it seems to me that the solo players group

Told you before, Sov - you're not a soloer. You group for fun? That's not a soloer.

for the fun of it and that the groupers are more concerend over rewards and progression. They just want everyone to be concerned together.

As far as the other gentleman's comment about "why people play multi-player games alone" I believe this has been answered enough times that if I had a dime for every time it has been answered I'd be rich.

It's never been answered well, that I have seen.

Which leads me to believe that:

A, they haven't seen the explanations in millions of threads or

B, they put their hands over their eyes and refuse to accept the reason because it's just beyond the pale and unpossible.

C. It's a BS excuse.

So in the spirit of the thread, it is possible to have a game where people can group or solo. Lineage 2 did it quite well. Some areas are group related and have a chance of nice drops and some areas one can solo.

All drops can be sold so if a soloer doesn't get the nice drop he can buy it off of someone who wants to sell it.

And everyone is happy.

Until they can't get a group, because 1/2 the players are soloing.

BadSpock

1. The big problem with "that" game is that quests are the fastest way to level.

2. Also, you don't get any additional bonuses to XP gain for doing quests in a group.

3. Finally, many quests require you to gather items, and with more players you have to find and wait for more re-spawns or kill more enemies to get the items because the loot for these quests is not shared.

4. Additionally, grouping can make straight up kill quests go much faster, but generally speaking the added time of #3 is NOT made up for by #4 here.

5. Really finally, the +XP bonus for being in a group is NOT enough to equal out XP per kill if you were soloing. 

 

 

Simply solutions? 

a. Fix #5 so that if you are solo, with one additional player, or a full group you get normalized XP gain; enough to not make soloing the most efficient method nor make grouping too mandatory. The reward for grouping would be a decrease in downtime and thus leveling speed and efficiency but not straight up XP gain per kill.

b. Fix #3 so that if you are in a group and on a Collect quest if you loot something you need everyone in your group get's it. Again, the reward for grouping would be a decrease in downtime and thus a leveling speed increase and efficiency raise.

*edit*

c. In order to prevent this from being "forced grouping" so you can be the most efficient and fastest, systems like Rest XP only apply when soloing. So you'll always be a little faster and more efficient if play with others, but you'll be able to play "catch up" solo with the use of Rest XP.

Sovrath

Originally posted by MMO_Doubter

Originally posted by Sovrath

Well, here's a thought,

I've been doing a bit more grouping lately and you know what? "me" the soloer groups for the sake of doing a run with players. But the "groupers" complain about not getting enough experience.

What makes you think they are groupers?

So let's play that one again shall we?

"I" the soloer who prefers to solo but when grouped doesn't have to get experience or rewards but is happy to group for the sake of grouping listened to "pro-groupers" who kvetched about too little experience or not getting any experience.

Maybe we need to start another topic solely about groupers because it seems to me that the solo players group

Told you before, Sov - you're not a soloer. You group for fun? That's not a soloer.

for the fun of it and that the groupers are more concerend over rewards and progression. They just want everyone to be concerned together.

As far as the other gentleman's comment about "why people play multi-player games alone" I believe this has been answered enough times that if I had a dime for every time it has been answered I'd be rich.

It's never been answered well, that I have seen.

Which leads me to believe that:

A, they haven't seen the explanations in millions of threads or

B, they put their hands over their eyes and refuse to accept the reason because it's just beyond the pale and unpossible.

C. It's a BS excuse.

So in the spirit of the thread, it is possible to have a game where people can group or solo. Lineage 2 did it quite well. Some areas are group related and have a chance of nice drops and some areas one can solo.

All drops can be sold so if a soloer doesn't get the nice drop he can buy it off of someone who wants to sell it.

And everyone is happy.

Until they can't get a group, because 1/2 the players are soloing.

1, Well, they are groupers because groupers are always asking for a group and soloers just get in the game to have fun

2, The devil you say!!!????

3, I've answered it trillions of times and I'm not a liare or a fabricator of tales (well, not a liar at least )

4, Whether one says it's a BS excuse or not if one answers truthfuly it's truthful. In a world with many personalities all with varying needs it's not about getting everyone to agree it's about everyone agreeing to acknowledge the differences.

5, they can group with the other half then.

Hyanmen

Originally posted by heerobya

1. The big problem with "that" game is that quests are the fastest way to level.

2. Also, you don't get any additional bonuses to XP gain for doing quests in a group.

3. Finally, many quests require you to gather items, and with more players you have to find and wait for more re-spawns or kill more enemies to get the items because the loot for these quests is not shared.

4. Additionally, grouping can make straight up kill quests go much faster, but generally speaking the added time of #3 is NOT made up for by #4 here.

5. Really finally, the +XP bonus for being in a group is NOT enough to equal out XP per kill if you were soloing. 

I'd also like to add 6., which is that soloing is already so efficient, that even if grouping would give more exp, it would only make the already fast leveling into even faster, which isn't really necessary for most. It's already "fast enough" that when you'd have to go through the hassle of looking for members, dealing with bad players and random disconnects that would ruin the experience, it's not worth it. Soloing does the job.

As you need more and more exp to level, the problem ceases to exist though- but that doesn't happen until very late.

Hyanmen

Anyway, I am pleased to see the results of the poll. There is definitely a market out there, but developers need to make something worthwhile for us to play. In my opinion we still don't have a game that meets those standards. GW2 is coming, and FFXIV as well- so it's not looking too bad right now.

mmoguy43

Imo grouping should always be the faster route for progession. Whether it is when killing lots of monsters or doing a bunch of quests.

 

Call me crazy but I think classes need to have more in the way as grouping abilities and skills that offer little or no help when soloing but greatly benefit everyone when in a group. Like a theif class that increase the luck of better loot per # of group members. Or certain class that is only able to transmute the monter into gems but if he were in a group, everyone would get some.

idk bleh