I would like to see something done with jedi/sith apprentice/paduwan relation. It would be cool if that is part of the storyline but also available at the guild level where some roleplay is involved but things could be done.
For example leader of guild assigns Player B to be Player A's apprentice. Player A can activate trials for Player B along with completing ceremonies, etc. I know role play can cover all this usually but would be cool if something could be organized along with quests. This then could tie in with harder and harder trials allowing maybe some attribute bonuses for those who complete it. It could be some good endgame content for the force users.
I definitely love the IP and Bioware has my respect unlike some other companies. They will receive my pre-order and a subscription. No game deserves a lifetime sub though.
If they create seamless worlds that make me feel like I'm living in the Star Wars Universe then I'll be happy. However the character models are fugly and need to be remade because they just don't look right. The rest of the game looks great and the droids all look kool and the mobs, just the playable character models look retarded.
Fans of SWG tend to foam at the mouth for no reason at all. OMG you mean they aren't going to make it just like SWG pre-CU? The sky is falling!
They're looking for a bit larger of an audience than those 50 or 60 SWG vets who've been holding their breath for that SWGemu, which, by the way, is no big secret.
I'm sick of the hate toward SWG vets, I'm an SWG vet I really haven't played an MMO since, as none have filled the void. Yet I'm not foaming at the mouth over anything, even the NGE...
There's a few posters who are bitter who have stuck to their ways of bashing anything and everything SOE or star wars, that didn't have the words Pre-cu roll-back following it. Stop associating these posters with the rest of us. They're nothing more than an anomally, just like the tram hating UO vets everyone used to see all over.
Most SWG vets are nothing more than gamers who enjoy multiple games and styles of them. I'm very much looking forward to TOR, as I'm sure many other SWG vets are. As we played SWG because it was Star Wars, not because it was a sandbox, or Koster designed it. That was irrelevant to a lot of us.
If you had read what the poster before me had said you'd see that 'Foaming at the mouth' were his words and not mine, so I was refering to him, rather than you.
My good friend Shakespeare would say, 'The lady doth protest too much, methinks.' as you responded to my post with a defensive rant that only manages to scream the exact opposite of what you are trying to say.
I didn't mouth off or rant at all, just stated how I felt about what you two were discussing. As it's a common theme when ever SWG is brought up. All I'm saying is the average SWG vet is as sick as everyone else of hearing the 'It's not SWG crowd".
I didn't even take a defensive stance as much as a separating one. Me thinks you're reading what you want to read rather than what I actually wrote. What would your good friend have to say about that?
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
I wasn't really aware this game only had 4 classes per side until i read this since I haven't been following along as closely as some others. Regardless, 4 classes per sides strikes me as extremely weak as a first impression.
I wasn't really aware this game only had 4 classes per side until i read this since I haven't been following along as closely as some others. Regardless, 4 classes per sides strikes me as extremely weak as a first impression.
I agree. The moment I reads that Eric was calling the decision to limit faction players not even to eight but to four classes as 'solid', I thought 'Uh-oh. This is not going to be an impartial review'.
The vast majority of the time, the forum fanbois and hype-masters are incredibly wrong about their game once it's released - it never lives up to the hype and isn't, in fact, the second coming of Christ.
I propose -
Is it possible that the forum trolls and nay-sayers could be as equally wrong for once?
I dunno, I have faith in Bioware.
They have far too much money and experience and talent to just rehash the same mechanics and systems of other games, especially WoW.
Will it have similarities? Of course! And it's good that it will as certain things are now "standards."
But it'll be the differences that make it great... or not.
I wasn't really aware this game only had 4 classes per side until i read this since I haven't been following along as closely as some others. Regardless, 4 classes per sides strikes me as extremely weak as a first impression.
I agree. The moment I reads that Eric was calling the decision to limit faction players not even to eight but to four classes as 'solid', I thought 'Uh-oh. This is not going to be an impartial review'.
I'd rather have 8 balanced, fun, and entertaining classes at launch then 16 or 24 broken ones like some recent releases...
And it doesn't make sense to have some classes on both factions - like the jedi ones are an obvious NO and different enough where they have to be faction specific.
Things like bounty hunter, infiltrator, trooper, and smuggler could go both ways I guess.. but even still a few of them like the Infiltrator and Bounty Hunter make more sense being on one side versus the other.
Fans of SWG tend to foam at the mouth for no reason at all. OMG you mean they aren't going to make it just like SWG pre-CU? The sky is falling!
They're looking for a bit larger of an audience than those 50 or 60 SWG vets who've been holding their breath for that SWGemu, which, by the way, is no big secret.
I'm sick of the hate toward SWG vets, I'm an SWG vet I really haven't played an MMO since, as none have filled the void. Yet I'm not foaming at the mouth over anything, even the NGE...
There's a few posters who are bitter who have stuck to their ways of bashing anything and everything SOE or star wars, that didn't have the words Pre-cu roll-back following it. Stop associating these posters with the rest of us. They're nothing more than an anomally, just like the tram hating UO vets everyone used to see all over.
Most SWG vets are nothing more than gamers who enjoy multiple games and styles of them. I'm very much looking forward to TOR, as I'm sure many other SWG vets are. As we played SWG because it was Star Wars, not because it was a sandbox, or Koster designed it. That was irrelevant to a lot of us.
If you had read what the poster before me had said you'd see that 'Foaming at the mouth' were his words and not mine, so I was refering to him, rather than you.
My good friend Shakespeare would say, 'The lady doth protest too much, methinks.' as you responded to my post with a defensive rant that only manages to scream the exact opposite of what you are trying to say.
I didn't mouth off or rant at all, just stated how I felt about what you two were discussing. As it's a common theme when ever SWG is brought up. All I'm saying is the average SWG vet is as sick as everyone else of hearing the 'It's not SWG crowd".
I didn't even take a defensive stance as much as a separating one. Me thinks you're reading what you want to read rather than what I actually wrote. What would your good friend have to say about that?
lol... Well just to ease your woes I'm a SWG vet myself, though I only played from beta for about two months, so when I refer to SWG vets you can be assured I am only speaking of that vocal percentage that do nothing but compare every game that comes out to SWG and have been trolling the site heavily as of late with their anti-ToR rhetoric.
I think we're pretty much in the same boat as far as that is concerned, es-tu d'accord?
Ok first off, there are 4 base classes on each side, that later in the game make a choice that become 1 of 2 possible branches....the choice is PERMANENT. Thus realistically there are 8 classes on each side.
2nd, Bioware has NEVER put out a bad game no matter what endeavor they broke into. I personally have faith in them.
3rd and most IMPORTANTLY.....Blizzard made WoW by following 1 Simple Rule: TAKE WHAT WORKS AND LEAVE IT THAT WAY, THEN ADD WHAT YOU THINK WILL MAKE IT BETTER.
all you people judge Bioware for following the same suit, but it was ok for Blizzard to do it?
ANY truly smart MMO dev especially when breaking into the market just like blizz did all those years ago, would keep what works and expand on it. Bioware is known for being secretive, just because you havent seen anything posted about how they are doing a billion things different doesnt mean they arent. Bioware doesnt provide info until they are confident that it is in the game and working as they want it to.
Cut them some slack and dont judge the game before youve tested it or played its release version because until then all you can do is whine with no proof or reason to whine about.
Ok first off, there are 4 base classes on each side, that later in the game make a choice that become 1 of 2 possible branches....the choice is PERMANENT. Thus realistically there are 8 classes on each side.
2nd, Bioware has NEVER put out a bad game no matter what endeavor they broke into. I personally have faith in them.
3rd and most IMPORTANTLY.....Blizzard made WoW by following 1 Simple Rule: TAKE WHAT WORKS AND LEAVE IT THAT WAY, THEN ADD WHAT YOU THINK WILL MAKE IT BETTER.
all you people judge Bioware for following the same suit, but it was ok for Blizzard to do it?
ANY truly smart MMO dev especially when breaking into the market just like blizz did all those years ago, would keep what works and expand on it. Bioware is known for being secretive, just because you havent seen anything posted about how they are doing a billion things different doesnt mean they arent. Bioware doesnt provide info until they are confident that it is in the game and working as they want it to.
Cut them some slack and dont judge the game before youve tested it or played its release version because until then all you can do is whine with no proof or reason to whine about.
Please stop reminding me how badly I miss pre NGE/CU SWG)
P.S. most likely will get this game and throw it away after a month, but would love to be proven wrong... the throwing away part that is..)
I really would like to think SWTOR is going to be more of an MMORPG, but it just screams out glorified RPG. Definatly not a day 1 buy for me I will have to wait and see what people are saying about it, when its released.
Waiting for:EQ-Next, ArcheAge (not so much anymore) Now Playing: N/A Worst MMO: FFXIV Favorite MMO: FFXI
The problem I see is that everyone wants it to be what they want it to be. Cool your jets and let it be what it is to be. Sure, I got burned by SWG, but I love the Star Wars universe and I'm going to give it an honest go. Sure, there may be problems with it when it first comes out but I plan on overlooking the minor issues for quite some time. Then if they don't get any better, then I'll give up on it. But so many people put so much hype into Warhammer Online then the very day it came out people started complaining. It's a new game, treat it as such. I even played NGE for quite some time after most of my friends whined and complained about how it wasn't like Pre and left. They went off to start playing random other games. They still had to learn new commands, new movement, new everything, just as they would have had to had they stayed with NGE-SWG. I hope TOR is good too, but I'm not going to try to compare it with SWG. Nor am I going to start complaining about it before it's even out yet. And then, when it does come out, I'm still not going to go all cry baby on it because hey, guess what, it just came out. There's going to be bugs and things they couldn't forsee. Then I'll put in my 2 cents in a constructive fashion, not go all whiny-baby like like some people will. And those that do, need to really re-evaluate what they're doing. It's a game. How about go outside for a change and stop having your life stop because a game isn't what you want it to be.
Ok first off, there are 4 base classes on each side, that later in the game make a choice that become 1 of 2 possible branches....the choice is PERMANENT. Thus realistically there are 8 classes on each side.
Although there are indeed 2 specialization branches for each class that take it in quite a different direction, this choice is not permanent: there are respec options.
The Smuggler for example, can choose to evolve into a Scoundrel, who specializes in stealth and has some healing or into a Gunslinger, which is more about perfecting dual wield blasters and fancy combat.
I am not bothered at all by the relatively low amount of classes, if they are balanced.
You also have to realise that every class will have a completely unique storyline, with voice acting etc etc....
This in itself limits the amount of classes that are feasible without destroying the initial premise of high quality storytelling.
Feel free to use my referral link for SW:TOR if you want to test out the game. You'll get some special unlocks!
Then I'll put in my 2 cents in a constructive fashion, not go all whiny-baby like like some people will.
See, now, that doesn't seem very constructive.
And those that do, need to really re-evaluate what they're doing. It's a game. How about go outside for a change and stop having your life stop because a game isn't what you want it to be.
Nice long post telling others not to post. Irony.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
This game to me screams wait till after 3-6 month before deciding to buy this game and get some accurate reviews and some player opinions, I would like to believe this would be a hybrid MMORPG (themepark/sandbox) but all information at this point has been sketchy and not very reliable and there is too much speculation on how this game will turn out in release, if they got a beta which I did sign up for and get my hands on it I'll be able to make that determination to buy the game or not, until then I'll just wait for the info like everyone else.
dont care. this game is looking worse and worse with every preview. too dated to compete. while a lot of star wars fans will play, most MMO veterans wont be payin for WoW in space. especially with GW2 coming
The vast majority of the time, the forum fanbois and hype-masters are incredibly wrong about their game once it's released - it never lives up to the hype and isn't, in fact, the second coming of Christ.
I propose -
Is it possible that the forum trolls and nay-sayers could be as equally wrong for once?
The reality is that neither trolls nor fans influence directly whether a game fails or succeeds, the games that didn't live up to the hype were either badly designed or promised things they didn't deliver.
Trolls simply get through their time bashing this game as being a co-op RPG, or not going to have this or that, or not going to be like SWG, or the art style being unlikelable, or the eternal complaint on any game that came after WoW: it's a wow clone!!!
Then in the case that this game 'fails', they can tell all the rest of us: "I told you so!!!" and have some sort of fulfilling feeling I guess.
Thing is, almost any game will fail in their eyes, even if this game gets 1-2 million subs there will still be those guys who say it failed.
So no matter what happens, they'll still 'win'; which is of course, why they are called trolls in the first place.
Feel free to use my referral link for SW:TOR if you want to test out the game. You'll get some special unlocks!
Then I'll put in my 2 cents in a constructive fashion, not go all whiny-baby like like some people will.
See, now, that doesn't seem very constructive.
And those that do, need to really re-evaluate what they're doing. It's a game. How about go outside for a change and stop having your life stop because a game isn't what you want it to be.
Nice long post telling others not to post. Irony.
And how many times have you posted in this thread already?
I just think people are getting to spazzed out over basic info. We didn't even have the combat video until just a few days ago.
And I'm not telling people not to post, I hope for things in this game as well, such as space eventually. But I'm not complaining about not hearing anything about it. If Bioware can do better than SWG (won't be that hard) then I really look forward to it.
The vast majority of the time, the forum fanbois and hype-masters are incredibly wrong about their game once it's released - it never lives up to the hype and isn't, in fact, the second coming of Christ.
I propose -
Is it possible that the forum trolls and nay-sayers could be as equally wrong for once?
The reality is that neither trolls nor fans influence directly whether a game fails or succeeds, the games that didn't live up to the hype were either badly designed or promised things they didn't deliver.
Trolls simply get through their time bashing this game as being a co-op RPG, or not going to have this or that, or not going to be like SWG, or the art style being unlikelable, or the eternal complaint on any game that came after WoW: it's a wow clone!!!
Then in the case that this game 'fails', they can tell all the rest of us: "I told you so!!!" and have some sort of fulfilling feeling I guess.
Thing is, almost any game will fail in their eyes, even if this game gets 1-2 million subs there will still be those guys who say it failed.
So no matter what happens, they'll still 'win'; which is of course, why they are called trolls in the first place.
A very great article and a good read indeed. No doubt the writer is excited about the coming of this release, as am I, and it did shine through.
However, I find his subjectiveness to take offset, from what we have been promised, and what is in the cards of Tarot with a sound, witty, and yet on the dot approach to many of the aspects versus what has faltered for other developers. It did shed some more light on some things for me, and put things into perspective.
Would read again, hence I do. Thanks Eric Barnett, you did good.
When the enemy is driven back, we have failed, and when he is cut off, encircled and dispersed, we have succeeded.
Prior to WoW's release, Blizzard had 0 MMO experience, and was known exclusively as a provider of RTS games.
Personally, I think you all are getting way to emo over this game and Bioware (well, any future MMO actually, I find it funny how absurdly immature the MMO comminity as a whole has become over the last decade).
As long as they release a stable and playable game and give the IP the respect it has earned in it's 40 year existence, I'm sure the game will do fine, if not exceptional.
I'm also sure everybody complaining about cartoony models will shut their pie holes the moment they start playing the game and become immersed. All of a sudden, you won't care wether or not it is ultra-realistic or not, because you'll be too busy playing the game and adventuring to give a crap.
Justy my .02... I doubt I will be proven wrong, and for those of limited intelligence, it is impossible to prove me wrong until after release.
"If I'd asked my customers what they wanted, they'd have said a faster horse." - Henry Ford
Comments
To comment on the OP,
I would like to see something done with jedi/sith apprentice/paduwan relation. It would be cool if that is part of the storyline but also available at the guild level where some roleplay is involved but things could be done.
For example leader of guild assigns Player B to be Player A's apprentice. Player A can activate trials for Player B along with completing ceremonies, etc. I know role play can cover all this usually but would be cool if something could be organized along with quests. This then could tie in with harder and harder trials allowing maybe some attribute bonuses for those who complete it. It could be some good endgame content for the force users.
I definitely love the IP and Bioware has my respect unlike some other companies. They will receive my pre-order and a subscription. No game deserves a lifetime sub though.
If they create seamless worlds that make me feel like I'm living in the Star Wars Universe then I'll be happy. However the character models are fugly and need to be remade because they just don't look right. The rest of the game looks great and the droids all look kool and the mobs, just the playable character models look retarded.
I didn't mouth off or rant at all, just stated how I felt about what you two were discussing. As it's a common theme when ever SWG is brought up. All I'm saying is the average SWG vet is as sick as everyone else of hearing the 'It's not SWG crowd".
I didn't even take a defensive stance as much as a separating one. Me thinks you're reading what you want to read rather than what I actually wrote. What would your good friend have to say about that?
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
I wasn't really aware this game only had 4 classes per side until i read this since I haven't been following along as closely as some others. Regardless, 4 classes per sides strikes me as extremely weak as a first impression.
TwitchTV Partnered Streamer
MMORPG.com Spotlight Blog Writer
Co-Leader of Inquisition
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I agree. The moment I reads that Eric was calling the decision to limit faction players not even to eight but to four classes as 'solid', I thought 'Uh-oh. This is not going to be an impartial review'.
I find it funny...
The vast majority of the time, the forum fanbois and hype-masters are incredibly wrong about their game once it's released - it never lives up to the hype and isn't, in fact, the second coming of Christ.
I propose -
Is it possible that the forum trolls and nay-sayers could be as equally wrong for once?
I dunno, I have faith in Bioware.
They have far too much money and experience and talent to just rehash the same mechanics and systems of other games, especially WoW.
Will it have similarities? Of course! And it's good that it will as certain things are now "standards."
But it'll be the differences that make it great... or not.
I'd rather have 8 balanced, fun, and entertaining classes at launch then 16 or 24 broken ones like some recent releases...
And it doesn't make sense to have some classes on both factions - like the jedi ones are an obvious NO and different enough where they have to be faction specific.
Things like bounty hunter, infiltrator, trooper, and smuggler could go both ways I guess.. but even still a few of them like the Infiltrator and Bounty Hunter make more sense being on one side versus the other.
lol... Well just to ease your woes I'm a SWG vet myself, though I only played from beta for about two months, so when I refer to SWG vets you can be assured I am only speaking of that vocal percentage that do nothing but compare every game that comes out to SWG and have been trolling the site heavily as of late with their anti-ToR rhetoric.
I think we're pretty much in the same boat as far as that is concerned, es-tu d'accord?
Ok first off, there are 4 base classes on each side, that later in the game make a choice that become 1 of 2 possible branches....the choice is PERMANENT. Thus realistically there are 8 classes on each side.
2nd, Bioware has NEVER put out a bad game no matter what endeavor they broke into. I personally have faith in them.
3rd and most IMPORTANTLY.....Blizzard made WoW by following 1 Simple Rule: TAKE WHAT WORKS AND LEAVE IT THAT WAY, THEN ADD WHAT YOU THINK WILL MAKE IT BETTER.
all you people judge Bioware for following the same suit, but it was ok for Blizzard to do it?
ANY truly smart MMO dev especially when breaking into the market just like blizz did all those years ago, would keep what works and expand on it. Bioware is known for being secretive, just because you havent seen anything posted about how they are doing a billion things different doesnt mean they arent. Bioware doesnt provide info until they are confident that it is in the game and working as they want it to.
Cut them some slack and dont judge the game before youve tested it or played its release version because until then all you can do is whine with no proof or reason to whine about.
Please stop reminding me how badly I miss pre NGE/CU SWG)
P.S. most likely will get this game and throw it away after a month, but would love to be proven wrong... the throwing away part that is..)
I really would like to think SWTOR is going to be more of an MMORPG, but it just screams out glorified RPG. Definatly not a day 1 buy for me I will have to wait and see what people are saying about it, when its released.
Waiting for:EQ-Next, ArcheAge (not so much anymore)
Now Playing: N/A
Worst MMO: FFXIV
Favorite MMO: FFXI
Can we wait until the game at least reaches external testing phase before we declare it a single player RPG with co-op mode?
The problem I see is that everyone wants it to be what they want it to be. Cool your jets and let it be what it is to be. Sure, I got burned by SWG, but I love the Star Wars universe and I'm going to give it an honest go. Sure, there may be problems with it when it first comes out but I plan on overlooking the minor issues for quite some time. Then if they don't get any better, then I'll give up on it. But so many people put so much hype into Warhammer Online then the very day it came out people started complaining. It's a new game, treat it as such. I even played NGE for quite some time after most of my friends whined and complained about how it wasn't like Pre and left. They went off to start playing random other games. They still had to learn new commands, new movement, new everything, just as they would have had to had they stayed with NGE-SWG. I hope TOR is good too, but I'm not going to try to compare it with SWG. Nor am I going to start complaining about it before it's even out yet. And then, when it does come out, I'm still not going to go all cry baby on it because hey, guess what, it just came out. There's going to be bugs and things they couldn't forsee. Then I'll put in my 2 cents in a constructive fashion, not go all whiny-baby like like some people will. And those that do, need to really re-evaluate what they're doing. It's a game. How about go outside for a change and stop having your life stop because a game isn't what you want it to be.
I am not clear on why it matters to you.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
Although there are indeed 2 specialization branches for each class that take it in quite a different direction, this choice is not permanent: there are respec options.
The Smuggler for example, can choose to evolve into a Scoundrel, who specializes in stealth and has some healing or into a Gunslinger, which is more about perfecting dual wield blasters and fancy combat.
I am not bothered at all by the relatively low amount of classes, if they are balanced.
You also have to realise that every class will have a completely unique storyline, with voice acting etc etc....
This in itself limits the amount of classes that are feasible without destroying the initial premise of high quality storytelling.
Feel free to use my referral link for SW:TOR if you want to test out the game. You'll get some special unlocks!
Why do that when we are all clearly omniscient?
I'm not here to complete my forum PVP dailies.
Nice long post telling others not to post. Irony.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
This game to me screams wait till after 3-6 month before deciding to buy this game and get some accurate reviews and some player opinions, I would like to believe this would be a hybrid MMORPG (themepark/sandbox) but all information at this point has been sketchy and not very reliable and there is too much speculation on how this game will turn out in release, if they got a beta which I did sign up for and get my hands on it I'll be able to make that determination to buy the game or not, until then I'll just wait for the info like everyone else.
dont care. this game is looking worse and worse with every preview. too dated to compete. while a lot of star wars fans will play, most MMO veterans wont be payin for WoW in space. especially with GW2 coming
Because no one here has actually played it yet.
The reality is that neither trolls nor fans influence directly whether a game fails or succeeds, the games that didn't live up to the hype were either badly designed or promised things they didn't deliver.
Trolls simply get through their time bashing this game as being a co-op RPG, or not going to have this or that, or not going to be like SWG, or the art style being unlikelable, or the eternal complaint on any game that came after WoW: it's a wow clone!!!
Then in the case that this game 'fails', they can tell all the rest of us: "I told you so!!!" and have some sort of fulfilling feeling I guess.
Thing is, almost any game will fail in their eyes, even if this game gets 1-2 million subs there will still be those guys who say it failed.
So no matter what happens, they'll still 'win'; which is of course, why they are called trolls in the first place.
Feel free to use my referral link for SW:TOR if you want to test out the game. You'll get some special unlocks!
And how many times have you posted in this thread already?
I just think people are getting to spazzed out over basic info. We didn't even have the combat video until just a few days ago.
And I'm not telling people not to post, I hope for things in this game as well, such as space eventually. But I'm not complaining about not hearing anything about it. If Bioware can do better than SWG (won't be that hard) then I really look forward to it.
I agree completely.
A very great article and a good read indeed. No doubt the writer is excited about the coming of this release, as am I, and it did shine through.
However, I find his subjectiveness to take offset, from what we have been promised, and what is in the cards of Tarot with a sound, witty, and yet on the dot approach to many of the aspects versus what has faltered for other developers. It did shed some more light on some things for me, and put things into perspective.
Would read again, hence I do. Thanks Eric Barnett, you did good.
When the enemy is driven back, we have failed, and when he is cut off,
encircled and dispersed, we have succeeded.
Prior to WoW's release, Blizzard had 0 MMO experience, and was known exclusively as a provider of RTS games.
Personally, I think you all are getting way to emo over this game and Bioware (well, any future MMO actually, I find it funny how absurdly immature the MMO comminity as a whole has become over the last decade).
As long as they release a stable and playable game and give the IP the respect it has earned in it's 40 year existence, I'm sure the game will do fine, if not exceptional.
I'm also sure everybody complaining about cartoony models will shut their pie holes the moment they start playing the game and become immersed. All of a sudden, you won't care wether or not it is ultra-realistic or not, because you'll be too busy playing the game and adventuring to give a crap.
Justy my .02... I doubt I will be proven wrong, and for those of limited intelligence, it is impossible to prove me wrong until after release.
"If I'd asked my customers what they wanted, they'd have said a faster horse." - Henry Ford