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Have you ever felt heroic fighting off lots of NPCs?

VarnyVarny ggghPosts: 765Member

The new combat video goes on about swinging around your Lightsaber or whatever right away. It goes on about the game being action packed and somehow that makes it Star Warsy. It goes on about how fighting in large groups with your friends isn't Heroic but, fighting alone against large enemies is. 

There has never been a point where I felt Heroic for killing lots of NPCs in an MMO. For one the AI is really dumb so you get no satisfaction out of that. Usually the Raids are where you feel the most badass because they are so hard and require so much teamwork. Once you start mindlessly killing lots of enemies, it just becomes generic and has no meaning. Frigging watch the new Star Wars movies where you have hundreds of clones and Jedi on the screen killing eachother. That had no impact, it felt souless and boring and most importantly it wasn't Star Warsy. What was heroic was Luke Skywalker standing up against the Emperor and saying he wouldn't kill his dad. He went on a journey that made us care for him because all the heroic things he did before weren't about swinging his lightsaber about all over the place. Yet when we watch the new movies that is what they are about, so all the characters are just bland and generic and you can't remember anything about them other than the bad acting.

To me it just feels like Bioware don't understand what makes Star Wars anymore. They keep saying how they wanted to make their own MMO and not copy the others, however they're just copying what is out there. So far you're killing lots of people to level up and they're trying to pack in lots of action to get you through them levels. However being a Jedi for example isn't about combat in the original movies. It was about using your whit and trying to keep the peace, only in the new movies they couldn't wait to start swinging their lightsabers about. When they were forced to combat in the originals, it was meaningful and a last resort. In the new movies it was all over the place cause Lucas wanted to go nuts with generic CGI. 

You know when I felt the most heroic in an MMO? When I was helping out other people and when I was grouped with other people. Nothing else made you feel more heroic than saving someone's life in the Dead Mines in WoW. As a crafter in SWG and you'd make perfect goods that pleased other people and they'd keep coming back to you for the best in the galaxy. When you ran past someone in Everquest and they were being chased, so you saved their life by taking their aggro. When you'd just have a nice event with the guild and everyone is around talking. There is nothing worse in an MMO than being alone because it makes you bored and makes the game feel dead.

The more I see of this game, the less it feels like Star Wars. Sure it looks like it apart from those horrible character models but, the new movies looked like Star Wars and well they didn't feel like it. It's such a shame because Bioware did so well with the original Kotor and you had to earn the ranks of Jedi, you didn't just start out as one. Didn't that make you feel heroic when you spent months trying to unlock Jedi in SWG and you finally did it? Yet for some reason to Bioware now it'll make us feel more heroic to start swinging around a lightsaber straight away.

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Comments

  • MechanicusMechanicus LetchworthPosts: 77Member

    I know exactly what you mean, but for me it was not about the jedi, but more the troopers/soldiers.

    They talk about a single player going up against lots of enemies, but when, in all 6 SW films, has a single Storm Trooper faced off against loads of opponents? At the very least, he would be in a squad.

    Current MMO: None
    Previous MMOs: WoW, Guild Wars, SWG, EQ2, LotrO, Vanguard, Matrix Online, AoC, Ultima Online, Fallen Earth, D&D Online, Champions Online, Aion, Rift.

  • WilliacWilliac AarhusPosts: 212Member

    And you think that hitting the same Boss for 10 mins. with a group of people or more is heroic? I don't. It's actually a little sad that you need a group of 6 or more, to take down a girl with a wand. It's not heroic.

    Heroic is when you're outnumbered and still win!

  • HyanmenHyanmen KolkkalaPosts: 5,354Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Williac

    Heroic is when you're outnumbered and still win!

    And that doesn't mean "lots of mobs that are however so easy to beat that you never even have any sense of danger".

    Just because there are more mobs than you doesn't make it heroic.

    Hopefully Bioware knows this.

    That would mean they'd actually have to make the game difficult though... 

    "Housing is standard in most mmo's."
    - yolteotl79

  • ElectriceyeElectriceye BPosts: 1,171Member

    While I get your point and agree with it, you can be sure that Bioware is going to make you believe that you are a hero and are doing all kinds of heroic things. They did it in all their previous games, they are going to do it again. If there's one thing they won't fail at it's storytelling and making you feel important and heroic.

    As far as TOR the MMO goes however, it's a different story. There's no guarantee. I miss stories like the examples you gave, they are one of the reasons I play MMOs, to have an identity. I like people to go "Hey it's *player's name*, great he's going help us", rather than "Hey its a trooper, he's useful".

    image

  • DameonkDameonk Ewa Beach, HIPosts: 1,914Member

    Originally posted by Electriceye

    I like people to go "Hey it's *player's name*, great he's going help us", rather than "Hey its a trooper, he's useful".

     

    Sagely words, my friend.

    Too bad all of the current and future MMO games seem to be focusing on single character progression rather than community building and/or group progression.

    "There is as yet insufficient data for a meaningful answer."

  • AmorienAmorien Sin City, NVPosts: 142Member

    i remember playing EQ for the first time and there was this orc encampment i fought in there for hours untill i made it up to the last boss in this building. It was fun it got the blood pumping.

    In my opinion i dont think people know what they want from an mmo anymore.

    image

  • HyanmenHyanmen KolkkalaPosts: 5,354Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Amorien

    In my opinion i dont think people know what they want from an mmo anymore.

    Exactly.

    It's the developers job to make a game we want to play.

    But if they listen to the fans and do what they want, that will never happen.

    "Housing is standard in most mmo's."
    - yolteotl79

  • DerWotanDerWotan NorrathPosts: 1,012Member

    They're making a huge mistake here how is fighting masses of braindead mobs heroic? Jugding from my personal experience the most heroic/epic feeling came from grouping up with others and fighting bad ass encounters such as Lady Vash, Quarm and Quanun.

    Becoming a Jedi or Sith right from the get go is  ridiculous, this is not heroic. I can guarantee you almost everyone will end up as a Jedi or Sith. Didn't they learn from the NGE mess? Jedi, Sith is something you should have to earn - work for. As someone mentioned over me SW isn't pure war its about politics, might and controlling the dark side of life. Right now Bioware hasn't covered the epic factor of this IP. Still can't believe they made it a themepark instead of a sandbox.

    They animations are nice but seriously  more looking like a big zergfest than heroic combat. Whats happening in group, raid combat  beating up 10 mobs instead of an epic encounter?

    Hopefully BW isn't trying to be too creative here, like Mythic they have everything in place just take KOTOR and turn it into a mmoRPG, shouldn't be too hard with that huge money background. Looks to me they're aiming for Wow in space if so its destinated for a fail.

     

    We need a MMORPG Cataclysm asap, finish the dark age of MMORPGS now!

    "Everything you're bitching about is wrong. People don't have the time to invest in corpse runs, impossible zones, or long winded quests. Sometimes, they just want to pop on and play."
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  • GrungiGrungi ClevelandPosts: 86Member

    Originally posted by Varny

    The new combat video goes on about swinging around your Lightsaber or whatever right away. It goes on about the game being action packed and somehow that makes it Star Warsy. It goes on about how fighting in large groups with your friends isn't Heroic but, fighting alone against large enemies is.

    It was commented that multiple players attacking the same enemy (many-vs-one, i.e. group/raid vs boss) isn't heroic, but that facing overwhelming odds (one-vs-many) is. I agree with this. I wouldn't want to see two Jedi beating on Darth Lewtbag, a Trooper and Smuggler stood back shooting him while a third Jedi blasted him with lightning and Force Healed everyone.

    From recent comments, I inferred that PVE group combat would focus on few-vs-many battles. A group of 5 Rebels battling a few dozen Stormtroopers sounds VERY Star Wars to me. Moving away from the many-vs-one PvE boss fight is certainly a considerable change in comparison to modern MMO's. Has it been confirmed yet whether TOR's combat will be based on the traditional Tank/DPS/Healer trinity? If not, that would also be a big change.

    There is a lot of talk (especially in the Combat videos) about how early combat will be action packed, but I think you're drawing hasty conclusions from that. You say that "you're killing lots of people to level up" but we don't know that. All we've seen are small and isolated combat examples and we've no indication how they fit into the game as a whole. My guess is that TOR will have a lot of combat like KOTOR did, but that the storyline will be the games backbone. Not a bad thing at all.

    Regarding SWG and feeling heroic when you finally unlocked Jedi, absolutely agree but there is one thing to consider.. I would be willing to bet that you didn't feel particularly heroic while grinding the Entertainer profession 'cos that's what the Holocron told you to do. :)

    These forums often talk about how games aren't fun at early levels, and how characters don't feel powerful when they're dressed in rags with a rusty sword and being given menial tasks like delivering pies or killing rabbits. Bioware isn't doing that. It's another departure from MMO tradition and I'm very interested to see how well it works.

  • JacobinJacobin Toronto, ONPosts: 697Member Uncommon

    I think Bioware is trying to get away from the idea of a group pulling 1 or 2 mobs at a time then tank and spank over and over like a lot of mmos.

     

    Say a group of 4 level 20s is going through a dungeon or zone and pulling like 1 or 2 level 25 clone troopers or droids at a time. That is pretty lame and not Star Wars at all.

     

    On the other hand being attacked by large groups of enemies tends to be a little more exciting as long as they are not pure fodder.

  • SwampRobSwampRob Halifax, NSPosts: 1,008Member

    I have felt heroic, many times.    In City of Heroes, when I jump into a group of 10-20 mobs and start tossing bodies around as a tanker, or when my blaster runs in and uses his nuke power to send them flying in all directions.    I remember an instance in Wow, around level 43ish(?), where there is a section that requires you to defeat waves upon waves of mobs coming up some stairs.   

    Also, while it is common in many games, there are lots of others where the AI is significantly smarter than 'really dumb'. 

    Obviously, you need a heavy pvp-based game to feel heroic.   Nothing wrong with that, but not everyone feels the same.

  • Methos12Methos12 Maladis 46Posts: 1,234Member Uncommon

    Only thing that's heroic about that is that I'll need a new heroic PC to run all them models and particles effects at once. :(

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    Nature without Magic is without wonder or miracle.
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  • MMO_DoubterMMO_Doubter Bedford, NSPosts: 5,056Member

    Originally posted by SwampRob

    I have felt heroic, many times.    In City of Heroes, when I jump into a group of 10-20 mobs and start tossing bodies around as a tanker, or when my blaster runs in and uses his nuke power to send them flying in all directions.    I remember an instance in Wow, around level 43ish(?), where there is a section that requires you to defeat waves upon waves of mobs coming up some stairs.   

     

     

    Zul Farrak - the open air instance in Tanaris. Yup, that was exciting the first time I experienced it.

    "" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2

  • Jimmy562Jimmy562 FlimwellPosts: 1,099Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Mechanicus

    I know exactly what you mean, but for me it was not about the jedi, but more the troopers/soldiers.

    They talk about a single player going up against lots of enemies, but when, in all 6 SW films, has a single Storm Trooper faced off against loads of opponents? At the very least, he would be in a squad.

    Because a stormtrooper isn't a hero...

  • stayontargetstayontarget Tacoma, WAPosts: 6,068Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Amorien

    i remember playing EQ for the first time and there was this orc encampment i fought in there for hours untill i made it up to the last boss in this building. It was fun it got the blood pumping.

    In my opinion i dont think people know what they want from an mmo anymore.

    +1 

    Depends on the player I guess but there have been plenty of times I have come away from NPC fighting saying "Whoo that was cool".

    Velika: City of Wheels: Among the mortal races, the humans were the only one that never built cities or great empires; a curse laid upon them by their creator, Gidd, forced them to wander as nomads for twenty centuries...

  • safetysafety NY, NYPosts: 219Member

    I felt pretty heroic as a fully trained and equipped MLS/MDef/4xx4 Jedi soloing the Geonosian Cave on Yavin IV with a PC BH following close behind. I am sure that SWTOR is going to give me that kind of intense experience. Especially that chilling moment when I ran out of force power and the BH dot on my minimap suddenly turned from gold to red.

  • MMO_DoubterMMO_Doubter Bedford, NSPosts: 5,056Member

    Originally posted by Grungi

    Originally posted by Varny

    The new combat video goes on about swinging around your Lightsaber or whatever right away. It goes on about the game being action packed and somehow that makes it Star Warsy. It goes on about how fighting in large groups with your friends isn't Heroic but, fighting alone against large enemies is.

    It was commented that multiple players attacking the same enemy (many-vs-one, i.e. group/raid vs boss) isn't heroic, but that facing overwhelming odds (one-vs-many) is. I agree with this. I wouldn't want to see two Jedi beating on Darth Lewtbag, a Trooper and Smuggler stood back shooting him while a third Jedi blasted him with lightning and Force Healed everyone.

    I agree that facing and defeating huge numbers can be very heroic. Facing a single tough opponent can be as well - as long as that opponent is a varied and challenging adversary. If it's just a case of a shedload of HP to whittle down before a timer elapses (like some WoW bosses) then that won't feel heroic.

     

    From recent comments, I inferred that PVE group combat would focus on few-vs-many battles. A group of 5 Rebels battling a few dozen Stormtroopers sounds VERY Star Wars to me. Moving away from the many-vs-one PvE boss fight is certainly a considerable change in comparison to modern MMO's. Has it been confirmed yet whether TOR's combat will be based on the traditional Tank/DPS/Healer trinity? If not, that would also be a big change.

    There is a lot of talk (especially in the Combat videos) about how early combat will be action packed, but I think you're drawing hasty conclusions from that. You say that "you're killing lots of people to level up" but we don't know that. All we've seen are small and isolated combat examples and we've no indication how they fit into the game as a whole. My guess is that TOR will have a lot of combat like KOTOR did, but that the storyline will be the games backbone. Not a bad thing at all.

    It's bad for an MMO, because players progress through a story at different rates (just like leveling and gearing up), and your storyline will isolate you from that of your friends.

    I think the individual storylines will result in the same problems as quest chains in other MMOs - everyone is at a different stage.

    Regarding SWG and feeling heroic when you finally unlocked Jedi, absolutely agree but there is one thing to consider.. I would be willing to bet that you didn't feel particularly heroic while grinding the Entertainer profession 'cos that's what the Holocron told you to do. :)

    These forums often talk about how games aren't fun at early levels, and how characters don't feel powerful when they're dressed in rags with a rusty sword and being given menial tasks like delivering pies or killing rabbits. Bioware isn't doing that. It's another departure from MMO tradition and I'm very interested to see how well it works.

    On what are you basing the claim that there won't be pie delivery and rabbit killing quests? I'm willing to bet there will be. Not that those are bad - in limited number.

    STO had you feeling powerful right at the start - you were fighting Borg in the tutorial. Which trivialized them as a threat.

    "" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2

  • mulcebarmulcebar AdelaidePosts: 24Member

    I would be the first to agree whole heartedly that George lucas screwed up the new films in a big way. Or perhaps more accurately back when he made the first three he let all the other awesome talent involved have more of a say.

    I dont know. I just watched the original unlaltered trilogy again and its just so damn good. even most of the effects hold up well really.

    but, this is bioware and they have really earned the benefit of the doubt here. What they did with mass effect 1 and 2 is seriously on par with stawars for me. I mean starwars was iconic and it is the father of many sci fi ideas but the depth and complexity of story and character in mass effect is just so enjoyable If this game even has half of that artistic integrity the game will be worth playing.

    Whatever this game turns out like even if its a single player game disguised as an MMO, if I have fun and theres a good story it will be worth a few months of subscriptions.

    I say keep an open mind until its launched and try not to get too hyped. god knows I had a game in my head while waiting for star trek online, I saw an elegant mixture of eve online and mass effect with limitles freedom to explore a realisticly depicted galaxy, and look what we got instead. I wish I had just ignored it and not invested so much energy following the development.

  • Dragon71UKDragon71UK BournemouthPosts: 86Member

    Many real life heroes were part of a squad, company, i.e team, yet they did something alone, that defined them., set them apart from the rest.

    Doing something in the face of adversity, like a guy charging a gun placement, and killing them all.

    There is ofc the other side, were someone thows themselves on a grenade, and saves the rest of his squad.

     

    The difference I think in game is that it isn`t real, with no real threat. It doesn`t matter if you live or die. It doesn`t affect anyone else either.

    But personally, killing some huge mob in a team doesn`t feel heroic.  Doing it alone yes.

    Too me them kinda fights are dull and boring. Me going against larger groups is much more exciting.

    Played WOW (5 years), AOC, AO, EQ2,AC2, Horizons, Saga of Ryzom, SWG, CO, STO(Beta),ROM, Allods, and many other F2P titles. Asl been in beta for many of the main titles and played countless SP games. I have been gaming for 15+ years!

  • McGamerMcGamer Fairfield Bay, ARPosts: 1,012Member

    In the end, I feel it is in the community itself that can end up allowing a gamer to have the opportunity to feel heroic or not. If you have a good community that is a friendly and sociable community, you are able to help someone with their agro or offer to help with a quest you don't even need. After which would usually to lead to a sense of feeling heroic. But, if you have a bad community full of individuals who play an mmo like a single-player console game, who complain if you help their agro, and there isn't any socializing among the players, it all just leads to no chance for allowing your character to feel heroic or even wanting to be apart of that community.

    Sadly, the days of good communities in mmo's are fading I believe and the current  devs seem to lack the ability to fix this with each new IP that comes out. Recently, I tried Lotro again because of the solid RP community my server used to have during beta and at launch. It was troubling to me within the first day back of how isolated and unhelpful everyone had become. I wasn't even able to ask one simple question about the current state of the recent expansion without receiving grief. It's ironic I feel because it was viewed at one time that Lotro would become a great source of RP and surely would also have a great community for the IP to build on. It would seem those who thought that were also wrong.

  • peacekraftpeacekraft BirminghamPosts: 189Member

    So long as the numerous NPC's are actually dangerous and have a high chance of killing me. If they are just the power of one normal NPC split to make them appear more dangerous then it is really not going to work. Give players the ability to change the game world - that could be heroic.

  • MMO_DoubterMMO_Doubter Bedford, NSPosts: 5,056Member

    Originally posted by peacekraft

    Give players the ability to change the game world - that could be heroic.

    Quoted for absolute truthiness.

    "" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2

  • GrungiGrungi ClevelandPosts: 86Member

    Originally posted by MMO_Doubter

    I agree that facing and defeating huge numbers can be very heroic. Facing a single tough opponent can be as well - as long as that opponent is a varied and challenging adversary. If it's just a case of a shedload of HP to whittle down before a timer elapses (like some WoW bosses) then that won't feel heroic.

    It's bad for an MMO, because players progress through a story at different rates (just like leveling and gearing up), and your storyline will isolate you from that of your friends.

    I think the individual storylines will result in the same problems as quest chains in other MMOs - everyone is at a different stage.

    On what are you basing the claim that there won't be pie delivery and rabbit killing quests? I'm willing to bet there will be. Not that those are bad - in limited number.

    STO had you feeling powerful right at the start - you were fighting Borg in the tutorial. Which trivialized them as a threat.

    A many-vs-one fight CAN be heroic, but not always. 5 Jedi vs one Sith isn't heroic. 5 Jedi vs a big honking war machine such as a 20m+ tall AT-AT is considerably more so.

    As I understand the TOR concept, it's a personal storyline that is unique to each class and (can be) unique to each player as it changes due to choices made. If that's true, you'll never end up at a different stage to your friends because the vast majority of them won't have the same quest chain.

    My objection to pie-delivery rabbit-killing quests isn't in their mechanics. I agree that TOR will likely have "take x to y" and "kill x enemies" quests but given the emphasis that Bioware is placing on the story aspect of the game, I anticipate that they will be meaningfully integrated into the backbone of the story instead of being disconnected chores that give you XP.

    Could be completely wrong, but at this stage pretty much everything is speculation. :)

    I understand the concern about trivialising enemy threats. I guess it depends on how they're presented. I think that LOTRO did quite well with this, I remember having run-ins with Ringwraiths in the tutorial and they were handled in a way that didn't detract from their menace.

  • HyanmenHyanmen KolkkalaPosts: 5,354Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Grungi

    A many-vs-one fight CAN be heroic, but not always. 5 Jedi vs one Sith isn't heroic. 5 Jedi vs a big honking war machine such as a 20m+ tall AT-AT is considerably more so.

    As I understand the TOR concept, it's a personal storyline that is unique to each class and (can be) unique to each player as it changes due to choices made. If that's true, you'll never end up at a different stage to your friends because the vast majority of them won't have the same quest chain.

    My objection to pie-delivery rabbit-killing quests isn't in their mechanics. I agree that TOR will likely have "take x to y" and "kill x enemies" quests but given the emphasis that Bioware is placing on the story aspect of the game, I anticipate that they will be meaningfully integrated into the backbone of the story instead of being disconnected chores that give you XP.

    Could be completely wrong, but at this stage pretty much everything is speculation. :)

    I understand the concern about trivialising enemy threats. I guess it depends on how they're presented. I think that LOTRO did quite well with this, I remember having run-ins with Ringwraiths in the tutorial and they were handled in a way that didn't detract from their menace.

    It's just a hunch, but I am willing to bet the quest system in this game will be more like PSO/PSU where you go from point A to B while killing mobs or doing other tasks common for MMO's. 

    Not so much "get quest, go to place X, kill # mobs there, go back to NPC", but "get quest, go from point A to B killing mobs along the way, get a cs or two, fight boss(?), get teleported back to NPC".

    Of course it's just a hunch. But so far it sounds like this would fit very well with the story segments of the game. It depends if this kind of progression is the main way of progression and not just side content. 

    To be honest, I've always liked the way PSO/PSU did it. It's one of the things that actually makes me want to play.

    "Housing is standard in most mmo's."
    - yolteotl79

  • SoludeSolude Ottawa, ONPosts: 691Member Uncommon

    Current model of 6v1 isn't heroic.  Even tough fights are just continuing what worked for the first 10s over and over.  AE fights are harder just by pure chaos factors.

    1v6 or 6v30 is much more interesting since you are tracking lots of mobs and not just one on a looping script.  Or to put it in SW terms... Vader soloing imperial captains one at a time for errors wasn't terribly heroic for him =P  Making Luke's entire team look like noobs... more so.

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