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SOE producer's defense of cash shops
ArcAngel3
Member Posts: 2,931
I was recently reading an interview with EQ2's producer, Dave Georgeson and he had this to say:
"If you look at it the right way you're not paying for pixels you're paying for entertainment. It's kind of like when you go to a movie you don't own the movie when you come out of the movie. Does that make sense?"
Well yes Dave, it makes sense...if you're talking about movies...but you aren't, and you neglect to mention (or perhaps even notice) some important differences. I'll point them out for you.
-When you pay to see a movie, the theatre does not reserve the right to switch films in the middle of the show. Last time I checked, SOE reserved the right to sell items at their cash shops and then change them any way they see fit, after the transaction. That's not cool Dave.
-Also, notice the language used in the transaction. When I go see a movie, I'm not told that I'm "purchasing" anything at an "item shop." I'm paying for admission to a show. This is like paying for a subscription to your video games. It gets me in the door. Your items shops are more like the snack shop in the lobby. Except, I may order and pay for popcorn, but you can give me spinach puffs, or take my (oops sorry, your) popcorn back anytime you like and throw it in the trash--which brings me to my next point.
-The theatre does not reserve the right to cancel the show part way through, and refuse me a refund. Again, last time I checked SOE reserved the right to delete items purchased at the cash shop at any time, at their sole discretion.
When I look at all of these difference Dave, I don't think you're selling entertainment at all. I think you're trying to code yourself easy access to my Visa card. I don't find that very entertaining.
Comments
To SOE.....HAHAHAHAHAHA Cash shops...where you purchace an item...but wait a minute it's not an item you purchased but entertainment.
Would anybody buy anything buy anything in a cash shop if it wat advertised as entertainment you do not own...I do think many wont.
It's just pure greed. You buy something but they still own it and you are not allowed to sell it and to make it worse they even can take it away. Is this even legal? Cause in theory they could sell you something and the second they got the money take it back.
Just one more confirmation why I do not believe in such a thing as a cash shop.
No different then your subscription, you pay to access these characters every month but you dont own anything.
Apparently stating the truth in my sig is "trolling"
Sig typo fixed thanks to an observant stragen001.
Sounds like a problem you should take up with your elected officials so they can modify your consumer protection laws if necessary to ensure you are treated properly.
LOL .. may be you should close you eyes and wish very hard and see if it will go away.
The people in charge of MMOs are not gamers.
That explains their motives and behaviour.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
I do not need to wish anything, I just do not buy or sub to games with a cash shop.
It's just boggle the mind seeing so many people fall into them.
That quote really scares me a lot, because it shows a light on the unsploken concept behind cash shops.
For example, this whole time I though subscription fees were paying for access to entertainment. Now subscription fees are slowing being enterence fees to shops that then subdivide, repackage and resell the same content that used to be rewards for actually playing the game under a subscription fee.
Call me crazy, but I find it more enjoyable to adventure with a group of friends to complete an objective and earn a reward than to go to a website and click purchase, even if that reward is purely cosmetic. I'm not even sure that a cash shop item could be called a reward at all. Somehow the idea of "playing" a game at the checkout screen of an item mall just doens't sound exciting or entertaining when I could be in the actual game and actually playing the game.
i hope the same thing will make them go bankrupt
BestSigEver :P
Then you need to HOPE very hard. There is research (article posted on this forum a while back) pointing out that virtual goods are growing and a majority of MMORPG players do NOT pay.
Thus, cash shop is a growing trend.
That... Doesn't make sense.
Alas, I never involve myself in a game where cash shops affect gameplay. Cosmetics are fine but once you can alter stats then its no place for me. I dont have the cash to spend on items, especially if I have a sub. And I dont have the time to make up for the difference in stats just buying the items gives.
Here is the report:
http://news.mmosite.com/content/2010-03-10/americans_spent_3800000000_on_mmo_games_in_2009.shtml
And I quote:
"The majority of the American MMO players do not pay to play but still a significant share of 46% does" .. 54% pay nothing.
"Many free-to-play MMOs rely on selling in-game virtual items using direct micro-transactions or a virtual currency approach, grossing another $1B in revenues."
Let me help you out.
There's this article, which shows substantial growth in the subscription market. The researchers also remark that subscription mmo'ers don't care for microtransactions. Oh wait, that doesn't show cash shops as a growing trend :P
http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=23003
It's possible the article you're thinking of is this one:
http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/4046/what_are_the_rewards_of_.php
It's one of the few articles I've come across which openly discusses real statistics of cash shops. Only a teensy, tiny minority of players in free-to-play MMOs actually spend any money. But when they spend, they spend really big.
But as per the first article I cited, subscription MMO'ers generally don't like microtransactions - especially on top of a subscription!
What has been the biggest, most successful MMO to be launched in recent years? Well that would be Aion, with their straight-up subscription model.
Even SOE's DCUO has backed away from their earlier plans to rely on cash shops, after they said they'd see how they worked out for CO. They're now talking about something more like a GW model.
And how many staff did SOE lay off, hot on the heels of the release of Free Realms?
So fail to see the "growing trend" that you do.
Both markets currently operate quite independently. Trying to mix them is precisely like trying to have your cake and eat it too.
I would gladly pay for actual content in AION.
Too bad they're not even offering that.
.... said the spider to the fly.
If we look at it "the right way"?? Of course what he means is look at it the way that will best boost his profits. But instead he's opted for trying to instruct us in the "right way" to think.
Gee, thanks Dave!
A SOE producer defending cash shops? LOL no kidding, of course they would. SOE practically invented cash shops in pay-to-play MMO's and went full blown with them.
EQ1-AC1-DAOC-FFXI-L2-EQ2-WoW-DDO-GW-LoTR-VG-WAR-GW2-ESO
hehe - yes I didn't care for it much either. It was clearly finished - a refreshing change for an mmo at release - and looked to be well designed etc. etc., but it was a bit too similar to every other EQ clone I've played. I could appreciate it, but not enjoy it.
They have inarguably been successful though. It's currently in second position and it's the first MMO released after WoW (5 years ago) to top a million subscriptions.
It is a good example of how the straight subscription model is popular and functional.
cash shops is the future of mmos
gw2 will be the same
its ok ppl makes money from less smart ppl
thats the life
definition of Western?
Let me know down the road. I'm completely and utterly interested in the game at this point. If by finished you mean a bare apartment should be described as fully furnished and move-in ready over one where they haven't even put the floor in...yeah, I still wouldn't call that accurate.
And I'd say AION is an example of how the "Hype it till it's in everybody's face" model is popular and functional, not that it's subscription matters.
No, I think he's correct.
You are paying for entertainment. That entertainment comes with stipulations which players agree to when they hit "I Accept".
I imagine the movie theaters that play movies also have an agreement that they accept responsibility for. Because of this they make sure the movie is offered subject to the terms of their agreement. We the viewer just have to pay the entry fee.
As far as the whole cash shop thing, you are paying for access to additional content.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
I'm a bit confused by what you've said.
Why does it matter that I personally didn't enjoy Aion? It was offered as an example of a very successful MMO that uses a straight subscription model - easily the most successful MMO to have launched since WoW.
It seems like you're stating the obvious - people won't play games they don't enjoy?
Also re Aion's payment model in Asia, buying time slots isn't fundamentally different from a monthly subscription. In both cases you pay for full access to the game for a limited amount of time. People who object to cash shops with RMTs generally wouldn't care less about players being able to buy time slots as an alternative to a whole month's subscription.
So I wouldn't characterise LOTRO as being more successful than Aion - 200k subscribers v 4 million. Especially when LOTRO so publicly boasted they'd top a million :P
Not that I think it matters for the purpose of this thread....
I agree. There is really nothing wrong with what SOE is doing. Yes they are certainly being greedy but then why shouldnt they be greedy? There is no law against being greedy and trying to make as much money from people as possible. No-one is being forced into anything. Everyone has the option to say no.
As Sovrath pointed out, what Dave Georgeson said is totally correct. They are selling entertainment. As soon as people buy into an mmo they are handing over money for something that doesnt belong to them regardless of whether there is a cash shop or not. The only difference with a cash shop is that it is more blatant about it. Its really no different from charging everyone a monthly fee for a game they already paid for. Whats the point in complaining about items from cash shops not being owned by the purchaser when the entire game is owned by the company and actually only exists on one of their servers? They can switch the game off whenever they feel like it and there isnt anything anyone can do about it. Hundreds of pounds handed over by all those players over the years and its gone in an instant. Boo hoo! If people are gullible enough to continually pay a monthly fee for the privelege of playing a game they already paid for that actually doesnt belong to them (most of which are now old and outdated anyway) then its hardly surprising that these companies will try to get even more of their money.
A standard subscription fee for one of these mmos is about a third of the price of a full game. First the company sells the game and then they discover that they can get people to effectively "re-purchase" the game at full price every 3 months. They dont NEED to charge people this price but they have discovered that lots of suckers are willing to pay it......and carry on paying it year after year. So now its become the standard thing for mmos. What a bargain these games companies are getting! No wonder the mmo genre has become so saturated with low quality knock-off mmos that all mimic each other. So obviously companies like SOE are going to see how far they can milk it......and so they start using cash shops to take even more money from gullible suckers.....and it works.
So I say more power to SOE and companies like them. More money for these companies means more money to be spent on peoples wages which means more opportunities for me to get a creative job at some point in the future. Maybe one day I will be one of the people who makes a single character model and rakes in billions from the daft masses. Woohoo! Yay for SOE and yay for the suckers that feed them!
Let you know what down the road?
And did you mean to say 'uninterested' or was this a Freudian slip and you secretly sleep with both arms wrapped tightly around an Aion Collector's Edition box every night? :P
Aion really was in superb shape at launch. Uncharacteristically so in this market, eg. Vanguard, Tabula Rasa, Darkfall, Champions Online, Age of Conan, Fallen Earth. Between WoW and Aion the only MMO I've played at launch that actually looked ready for launch was LOTRO. That admittedly suffered from some shocking memory leaks but the game itself was finished.
Nor was Aion overhyped. Having already been released in Asia there were plenty of accurate critical reviews of the game - which praised the good and spanked the bad. Again this was uncharacteristic for the market, eg. eg. Vanguard, Tabula Rasa, Darkfall, Champions Online, Age of Conan, Fallen Earth. I was a bit bewildered playing the game and finding it to be exactly what I expected.
Aion's payment model does matter. This is a very successful game and it shows that an MMO can be very successful without cash shops.
Why shouldn't they be greedy?
It's because their greed hurts our gaming value. The better the deal is for them, the worse it is for us customers.
Why is it bad that the Celestial Steed is in the cash shop? Well, because we can't play the game for it, and have to spend more money if we want it. That's a bad deal for the customers.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2