I see, I wasn't questioning the legality just the practicality of it. It seems to be a logical progression to me, however it seems odd that if I buy a game time card from CCP selling it on is illegal. I mean if I purchase a game time card for any game then that is my property and if I sell it on I don't see how any company could prevent it except through threats they would find very difficult to back up. I mean I see people selling plex on ebay so are they breaking the EULA? If so how would CCP hope to stop them? It just seems alot of people are using macro mining to sell plex on the web, I thought it was legit since CCP seem to condone RMT atleast through plex anyway.
wrong again when u buy a card u can be a reseller there are many websites for reseling cards that sell the GTC but the PLEX is not longer a code is a virtual item on a database owned by CCP and the plex is copyrighted by CCP so u cant sell what u dont own but yes u can sell the GTC itself
selling PLEX on ebay is against the EULA selling GTC on ebay is allowed, if anyone sell a plex on ebay for money is a scam(also against ebay EULA) because the plex show the GTC that generated that plex and the buyer can be tracked by the system
Well it's an interesting theory but most gold selling sites will sell plex along side EVE ISK and they sell plex for less than CCP sell it. If they're scamming people how do they stay in business? I mean gold sellers do a shady business but they're in it for a profit and repeat business that keeps them going not to scam.
It sounds good on paper but all that's happened is that plex has become another item for gold sellers to barter and a motivating factor for the botters that provide those sites with their products yes?
What I think is happening is what another guy said in this thread earlier. Some guy at CCP had a brain fart and cooked up this idea of selling plex to muscle in on the gold sellers and damage their business. All that has happened is that the Gold sellers have under cut CCP and sell plex for less than them. CCP have two options,
1: Clamp down on the botters (the main customers of plex).
2: Lower the price of plex under cutting the gold seller.
Each option means CCP lose income, they stop botting their sales of plex drop dramatically at the same time the price of ISK inflates on gold selling sites and it becomes far more profitable for even non botters to sell ISK on those sites than buy plex off CCP. However CCP will ultimately lose subscribers and alot of plex heads.
Lowering the price of plex means a price war with the gold sellers, CCP have to effectively lower their subscription fee and income until they can put them out of business and make the purchase of plex from anyone else too expensive. Ultimately CCP don't know if they can win the price war and even if they could it might cost them dearly and they'd lose subs if they tried to raise the price of plex again once they'd won. Also there's nothing stopping the gold sellers selling it again, IF CCP won.
So CCP has become the gold seller but is up against guys with alot more experience, it's like making a car to compete with Mercedes Benz good luck!
So what does CCP do? They do as they always have and maintain the status quo release some BS to the press about how they want to stop RMT ... erm well not their RMT but the guys that are under cutting them and effectively lowering the sub fee of EVE (which is nothing if you use a free roid ripper bot!).
Botters don't get banned unless they brag about it and become an embaressment to CCP, otherwise they're left in peace. I mean CCP employees play in large alliances that have their own fleets of mining bots and know all about it, effectively they endorse botting in practice but speak against it to the sheep that will listen. They thought plex would cut them in on the RMT business, instead it's caused their subscription fee to be one of the cheapest around and nothing if you bot. They're angry and confused, they've fought their way into a corner and don't know how to get out!
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience"
I see, I wasn't questioning the legality just the practicality of it. It seems to be a logical progression to me, however it seems odd that if I buy a game time card from CCP selling it on is illegal. I mean if I purchase a game time card for any game then that is my property and if I sell it on I don't see how any company could prevent it except through threats they would find very difficult to back up. I mean I see people selling plex on ebay so are they breaking the EULA? If so how would CCP hope to stop them? It just seems alot of people are using macro mining to sell plex on the web, I thought it was legit since CCP seem to condone RMT atleast through plex anyway.
wrong again when u buy a card u can be a reseller there are many websites for reseling cards that sell the GTC but the PLEX is not longer a code is a virtual item on a database owned by CCP and the plex is copyrighted by CCP so u cant sell what u dont own but yes u can sell the GTC itself
selling PLEX on ebay is against the EULA selling GTC on ebay is allowed, if anyone sell a plex on ebay for money is a scam(also against ebay EULA) because the plex show the GTC that generated that plex and the buyer can be tracked by the system
Well it's an interesting theory but most gold selling sites will sell plex along side EVE ISK and they sell plex for less than CCP sell it. If they're scamming people how do they stay in business? I mean gold sellers do a shady business but they're in it for a profit and repeat business that keeps them going not to scam.
It sounds good on paper but all that's happened is that plex has become another item for gold sellers to barter and a motivating factor for the botters that provide those sites with their products yes?
What I think is happening is what another guy said in this thread earlier. Come guy at CCP had a brain fart and cooked up this idea of selling plex to muscle in on the gold sellers and damage their business. All that has happened is that the Gold sellers have under cut CCP and sell plex for less than them. CCP have two options,
1: Clamp down on the botters (the main customers of plex).
2: Lower the price of plex under cutting the gold seller.
Each option means CCP lose income, they stop botting their sales of plex drop dramatically at the same time the price of ISK inflates on gold selling sites and it becomes far more profitable for even non botters to sell ISK on those sites than buy plex off CCP. However CCP will ultimately lose subscribers and alot of plex heads.
Lowering the price of plex means a price war with the gold sellers, CCP have to effectively lower their subscription fee and income until they can put them out of business and make the purchase of plex from anyone else too expensive. Ultimately CCP don't know if they can win the price war and even if they could it might cost them dearly and they'd lose subs if they tried to raise the price of plex again once they'd won. Also there's nothing stopping the gold sellers selling it again, IF CCP won.
So CCP has become the gold seller but is up against guys with alot more experience, it's like making a car to compete with Mercedes Benz good luck!
So what does CCP do? They do as they always have and maintain the status quo release some BS to the press about how they want to stop RMT ... erm well not their RMT but the guys that are under cutting them and effectively lowering the sub fee of EVE (which is nothing if you use a free roid ripper bot!).
Botters don't get banned unless they brag about it and become an embaressment to CCP, otherwise they're left in peace. I mean CCP employees play in large alliances that have their own fleets of mining bots and know all about it, effectively they endorse botting in practice but speak against it to the sheep that will listen. They thought plex would cut them in on the RMT business, instead it's caused their subscription fee to be one of the cheapest around and nothing if you bot. They're angry and confused, they've fought their way into a corner and don't know how to get out!
Agricola you got this thing on your mind and nobody will change it unless u start to test this things by yourself
if ppl buy PLEX from gold sellers they are simply retarded because if they BUY ISK the isk is removed from the account and the user get a warning, if u buy plex i bet is instant ban because u are cheating whit subscription
i dont remember wery well the deails but back when red overlord mega boss that is aluminum tycoon in real life spend 100 000 dollars on ISk from gold sellers in order to build a alliance on eve CCP banned him and any account involved on that and then he spend another 100 000 dollar on plex and financed/build red overlord alliance
Agricola you got this thing on your mind and nobody will change it unless u start to test this things by yourself if ppl buy PLEX from gold sellers they are simply retarded because if they BUY ISK the isk is removed from the account and the user get a warning, if u buy plex i bet is instant ban because u are cheating whit subscription
i dont remember wery well the deails but back when red overlord mega boss that is aluminum tycoon in real life spend 100 000 dollars on ISk from gold sellers in order to build a alliance on eve CCP banned him and any account involved on that and then he spend another 100 000 dollar on plex and financed/build red overlord alliance
Again in theory it sounds good, so answer me this how do those ISK sellers stay in business and why would they still be selling ISK and plex on their site if it just got wiped after the customer got delivery or the customer got a ban?
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience"
Also blaming lag on isk sellers is like blaming pollution on factory workers.
so u say normal ppl play 23h per day ?
Normal people get into fleet fight on servers that have no macro farmers. Macro farmers stay away from hostile areas and tend to go to somewhere where they can have their own server. Major lag in game is when 2000 people tries to fight in the same server. Failing to realize this means you fail at EVE. CCP is blaming someone else for their bad coding. And instead of fixing major game problems they focus on marginal stuff. It's like when congress of one country discusses how to change the name of French Fries into Freedom Fries while their bridges are falling down from lack on maintenance.
Get it now?
You didn't have to write all that when you could have just said that you dont know anything about EVE.
Pro-Tip™ for your next troll: EvE only has one server, one shard...
Agricola you got this thing on your mind and nobody will change it unless u start to test this things by yourself if ppl buy PLEX from gold sellers they are simply retarded because if they BUY ISK the isk is removed from the account and the user get a warning, if u buy plex i bet is instant ban because u are cheating whit subscription
i dont remember wery well the deails but back when red overlord mega boss that is aluminum tycoon in real life spend 100 000 dollars on ISk from gold sellers in order to build a alliance on eve CCP banned him and any account involved on that and then he spend another 100 000 dollar on plex and financed/build red overlord alliance
Again in theory it sounds good, so answer me this how do those ISK sellers stay in business and why would they still be selling ISK and plex on their site if it just got wiped after the customer got delivery or the customer got a ban?
Well if you can believe it, some ISK sellers are so mean and naughty that they dont give refunds
Agricola you got this thing on your mind and nobody will change it unless u start to test this things by yourself if ppl buy PLEX from gold sellers they are simply retarded because if they BUY ISK the isk is removed from the account and the user get a warning, if u buy plex i bet is instant ban because u are cheating whit subscription
i dont remember wery well the deails but back when red overlord mega boss that is aluminum tycoon in real life spend 100 000 dollars on ISk from gold sellers in order to build a alliance on eve CCP banned him and any account involved on that and then he spend another 100 000 dollar on plex and financed/build red overlord alliance
Again in theory it sounds good, so answer me this how do those ISK sellers stay in business and why would they still be selling ISK and plex on their site if it just got wiped after the customer got delivery or the customer got a ban?
Well if you can believe it, some ISK sellers are so mean and naughty that they dont give refunds
I find that hard to believe!
(I was being sarcastic there)
It's just I have friends that've been playing eve for years and some bot, some buy isk and some sell it but only one was ever caught after bragging constantly in local everyday about how much RL money he made from his fleet of mining bots. He eventually got his accounts banned but still bots the same today without bragging. So the theory that you get caught by CCP after purchasing ISK/Plex everytime is just not true. It's more the exception to the rule and I think we all know it.
As for the other guy he probably meant a seperate server blade, since the EVE server is just alot of servers put together handling different zones. They need to give Jita it's own server if they haven't already since thet would lock down after 500 people entered when I used to play anyway.
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience"
It is funny watching people defend this as something good.
What CCP complains about:
"Players" farming ISK to sell for real money.
How CCP resolved that:
"Players" farming ISK to buy PLEX which are sold for real money.
They may as well go full blown with their micro-shop and just sell ships, modules, and other items for cash.
It used to tick me off that the ex bought gold for WoW, but in all honesty - how was it any different than my buying PLEX? Is it about the botters? Then do something about them, eh? You cannot say you are fighting RMTs by offering RMTs... how about the government announces a new anti-drug policy by offering to sell the drugs themselves? Uh huh...
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Agricola you got this thing on your mind and nobody will change it unless u start to test this things by yourself if ppl buy PLEX from gold sellers they are simply retarded because if they BUY ISK the isk is removed from the account and the user get a warning, if u buy plex i bet is instant ban because u are cheating whit subscription
i dont remember wery well the deails but back when red overlord mega boss that is aluminum tycoon in real life spend 100 000 dollars on ISk from gold sellers in order to build a alliance on eve CCP banned him and any account involved on that and then he spend another 100 000 dollar on plex and financed/build red overlord alliance
Again in theory it sounds good, so answer me this how do those ISK sellers stay in business and why would they still be selling ISK and plex on their site if it just got wiped after the customer got delivery or the customer got a ban?
Well if you can believe it, some ISK sellers are so mean and naughty that they dont give refunds
I find that hard to believe!
(I was being sarcastic there)
It's just I have friends that've been playing eve for years and some bot, some buy isk and some sell it but only one was ever caught after bragging constantly in local everyday about how much RL money he made from his fleet of mining bots. He eventually got his accounts banned but still bots the same today without bragging. So the theory that you get caught by CCP after purchasing ISK/Plex everytime is just not true. It's more the exception to the rule and I think we all know it.
As for the other guy he probably meant a seperate server blade, since the EVE server is just alot of servers put together handling different zones. They need to give Jita it's own server if they haven't already since thet would lock down after 500 people entered when I used to play anyway.
Jita quite often has far in excess of 500, and its not a problem, so perhaps there have been a few improvements, a couple of days ago, nearly 400 of us took out a station in 0.0, while there was some lag, it was very slight - it only started when we opened fire! CCP arent just working on removing RMT's their also working hard on making the server more capable and refining the software where necessary - imo, the only people complaining about CCP's actions in dealing with the RMT's are those who have either;
a. been penalised for using said services.
b. profited from carrying out said activities.
c. dont like Eve anyway...
Personally i would commend any MMO company that is proactive in dealing with RMT.
As for the other guy he probably meant a seperate server blade, since the EVE server is just alot of servers put together handling different zones. They need to give Jita it's own server if they haven't already since thet would lock down after 500 people entered when I used to play anyway.
Jita has it's own node for a while now. hard-limit is about 1400 players in system, with no noticeable lag.
It is funny watching people defend this as something good. What CCP complains about: "Players" farming ISK to sell for real money. How CCP resolved that: "Players" farming ISK to buy PLEX which are sold for real money. They may as well go full blown with their micro-shop and just sell ships, modules, and other items for cash. It used to tick me off that the ex bought gold for WoW, but in all honesty - how was it any different than my buying PLEX? Is it about the botters? Then do something about them, eh? You cannot say you are fighting RMTs by offering RMTs... how about the government announces a new anti-drug policy by offering to sell the drugs themselves? Uh huh...
I don't know if you're being unintentionally ironic, but that's a pretty well proven way to greatly reduce the harm that drug use causes.
Please remember that the only thing CCP sell is game time. That's a pretty important distinction, because it provides a brake down the slippery slope fallacy that you tried to introduce. What you're saying is akin to accusing someone who hires the neighbours kid to do his gardening: "Well you're paying money to get a child to do the work on your land, why dont you just be honest with yourself and call yourself a child slave-owner, because that's all that slave owners do: pay to have other people do the work". Who gets the money and on what terms makes all the difference here.
Agricola's hyperbole and creatively sourced statistics* notwithstanding, most EVE players are pretty relaxed about the PLEX system because we know that it does not, in fact, cause many problems. Your drug analogy is a good one here. Driving the trade underground would cause vastly more problems than regulating and limiting it. On the other hand if CCP did try to introduce an item shop, I can absolutely assure you that there would be a vast uproar. Allowing PLEX for ISK is tolerated because it's basically impossible to just "buy win" with ISK in EVE. The system is homeostatic in too many ways. If you tried to spend a million dollars to fit your whole alliance out in motherships, you'd crash the PLEX market, and you'd get a low amount of ISK for your PLEX. And because unsupported motherships are horribly vulnerable, any advantage you got would be rather evanescent in any case. In short, you'd pretty quickly lose them. Players who do try to "buy win" are something of a standing joke. They're held in contempt, if anything. Rather than a threat, they're seen as a kind of pinata, a lucky loot spawn, with the added satisfaction of knowing that you just cost some idiot real life loss.
The rather dull, boring fact is that the great majority of people who sell PLEX are people who work all week and want to PvP at the weekend. They sell a PLEX now and then, buy a HAC and maybe a Battlecruiser or two, and off they go. They're not e-gangsters. They just want to pay someone a month of subs to do some grinding for them.
No MMO with any kind of economy is free from RMT. CCP's method of dealing with it is more liberal, mature and customer-friendly than most.
*If you actually stop and think about the things that he's accusing CCP, and remember that someone has to actually pay real money to create those PLEX, the accusations simply dont make sense.
There are many many ways for players to exploit the PLEX system, and saying that most players don't consider it a problem has little value. Also saying that ISK doesnt help you win in EVE is also not really true.
Lets consider a guy with 10 accounts running his industry operation in some safe alliance space, he makes alot of isk and pays for his accounts through PLEX,. Would he pay 150dollars per month for these accounts? - probably not.... Now consider a newish player who would like to break into industry or trade, well tough luck, there is no room for obvious reasons. Is this healthy for EVE? Absolutely not, you reducing the things new players can do thus providing a worse playing experience. Essentially the PLEX system allows fro more concentration of wealth.
On the other hand if you want to compete against this guy you really need huge amounts of ISK investemt to develop your operations, realistically there are only 3 ways to do it, trade (not easy and very time consuming), scam, or buying ISK (selling PLEXes).
These days if you are newish the only thing to do is run missions if you want ISK, everything else is much less efficient and that is a problem for EVE.
Players use money to buy PLEX to buy ISK....Players Bot mine to gain ISK to buy PLEX....how exactly have they solved RMT and botting? And why should others copy them?
Just to point out to people here... CCP have allowed the sale of GTC's via their forums at least since june 2007 (going by the earliest post in the 'Timecode Bazaar' on their official forums).
So to say the least, this isnt a "new" thing as it were... infact if anything since then the price for 60 days of game time has gone UP in ISK value whilst the $ value has remained fairly static (30 days now going for about 270million IN game, 60days GTC about 510million on the forums) , whereas originally 90days GTC was about 400million...
BUT i have also seen some PLEX's accidentally sell for 150mill (or less) on the market as well is in excess of 350mill on ther market.
So in reality... how much is 30days game time worth in terms of ISK?
Its whatever the player SELLING the gametime values it to be at that point in time (or a very stupid mistake pricing it up on the market).
Can CCP ever *truely* stop the selling of isk via ISk selling websites? No, but they can try to limit it though; and this method of "selling gametime for ISK" is one method that at least the community prefers and has accepted...
Still, nothing better than blowing up a players ship knowing that he bought it with ISK obtained from selling a GTC, especially if you were the one who bought the GTC
Players use money to buy PLEX to buy ISK....Players Bot mine to gain ISK to buy PLEX....how exactly have they solved RMT and botting? And why should others copy them?
again lack of knowledge in action a GTC is 35 dollar and that means 2 PLEX in eve the PLEX price change in eve because is set by players ( u can check the price here www.eve-central.com/home/quicklook.html ) so any gold seller that want to stay in bussines have to put a much lower price on ISK so they can compete whit the PLEX system
Please remember that the only thing CCP sell is game time. That's a pretty important distinction, because it provides a brake down the slippery slope fallacy that you tried to introduce. What you're saying is akin to accusing someone who hires the neighbours kid to do his gardening: "Well you're paying money to get a child to do the work on your land, why dont you just be honest with yourself and call yourself a child slave-owner, because that's all that slave owners do: pay to have other people do the work". Who gets the money and on what terms makes all the difference here.
The sophistry you attempt to offer with your "akin" is pretty far off from what I stated. You cannot say you are fighting RMT by using RMT.
The distinction you offer would be fine, if they only did sell game time - but they do not. The PLEX can be traded for ISK. Real Money -> PLEX -> ISK. Many companies sell GTCs - they do not have a means to convert said GTC into game money. That distinction is key.
Player A:
Farms ISK. Sells the ISK illegally to players for real money. Uses some of the real money to pay for their game time.
Player B:
Buys illegal ISK for his/her character with real money.
Player C:
Buys GTCs for real money, converts them to PLEX, and sells them in game for ISK.
Player
Farms ISK. Buys PLEX to pay for their game time.
The main difference between what Player A/B are doing and Player C/D? CCP gets the money. So the synopsis of the way that CCP is suggesting game companies fight people selling items in their games for real money? The game companies should sell it themselves. There are already micro-transactions/item shops out there - and a lot of people hate them.
Now if you wanted to make a case about CCP suggesting an alternative means to allow players to buy real game items for money that could reduce server load from botting and the like, then fine - you have that - but be honest about what it is...
...that is where my example about the government comes into play. If you are suggesting that you are fighting the drug problem by selling the drugs yourself, you are full of crap. However, by selling the drugs themselves - they might cut down on some of the issues associated with the selling of drugs.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Originally posted by cosyOriginally posted by Horusra
Players use money to buy PLEX to buy ISK....Players Bot mine to gain ISK to buy PLEX....how exactly have they solved RMT and botting? And why should others copy them?
again lack of knowledge in action a GTC is 35 dollar and that means 2 PLEX in eve the PLEX price change in eve because is set by players ( u can check the price here www.eve-central.com/home/quicklook.html ) so any gold seller that want to stay in bussines have to put a much lower price on ISK so they can compete whit the PLEX system
So what you are saying is, that a Public Health Option will address the high cost of healthcare by forcing the insurance companies to compete at an artificial level...right?
Which would be great if we were talking about that...but the guy asked about RMT and botting.
Instead of conducting a RMT with a third party, you can do it with CCP.
Instead of botting for ISK to sell to a third party so you can pay for your game time, you can bot for ISK to buy PLEX from another player that conducted a RMT with CCP.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Originally posted by cosyOriginally posted by Horusra
Players use money to buy PLEX to buy ISK....Players Bot mine to gain ISK to buy PLEX....how exactly have they solved RMT and botting? And why should others copy them?
again lack of knowledge in action a GTC is 35 dollar and that means 2 PLEX in eve the PLEX price change in eve because is set by players ( u can check the price here www.eve-central.com/home/quicklook.html ) so any gold seller that want to stay in bussines have to put a much lower price on ISK so they can compete whit the PLEX system
So what you are saying is, that a Public Health Option will address the high cost of healthcare by forcing the insurance companies to compete at an artificial level...right?
Which would be great if we were talking about that...but the guy asked about RMT and botting.
Instead of conducting a RMT with a third party, you can do it with CCP.
Instead of botting for ISK to sell to a third party so you can pay for your game time, you can bot for ISK to buy PLEX from another player that conducted a RMT with CCP.
You should probably lay off the bong before you post. This thread isn't about Health care (or drugs) and you only create these analogies because you lack the ability of construct a real argument. (and because you only really care about being a jerk) If you read this thread, then you see every legitimate objection, has been addressed by multiple EVE PLAYERS.
And the above crap is the best you can do. We have seen the effect GTC and Unholy rage has had on the game, and we know CCP is taking the problem seriously and it fighting effectively (also why we're winning this argument BTW). You just throw out the same weak arguments that have been very well cut down by multiple players. Then when you lose repeatedly, you just make stuff up. : p
You should probably lay off the bong before you post. This thread isn't about Health care (or drugs) and you only create these analogies because you lack the ability of construct a real argument. (and because you only really care about being a jerk) If you read this thread, then you see every legitimate objection, has been addressed by multiple EVE PLAYERS. And the above crap is the best you can do. We have seen the effect GTC and Unholy rage has had on the game, and we know CCP is taking the problem seriously and it fighting effectively (also why we're winning this argument BTW). You just throw out the same weak arguments that have been very well cut down by multiple players. Then when you lose repeatedly, you just make stuff up. : p
How are you winning the argument in the least? CCP is fighting third party RMT by offering their own RMT. That is not fighting RMT. It is encouraging RMT with them. There is no way around that regardless of how much fanboy love is shown. Covering your ears and crying out lalalala - you're wrong; is not a means of effectively arguing against a simple fact - RMT is RMT.
You make several unfounded and biased claims in your post, which unfortunately for you is detrimental to your mistaken cause.
CCP does take the issue of getting the most money out of the game seriously - nobody has argued against that, so I am not sure why you bring that up in the way you have - it is kind of the point, no?
From encouraging scamming of players as part of the game through artificially protected ninja looting, CCP has done a great job since I started playing in the beginning of 2007...
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
You should probably lay off the bong before you post. This thread isn't about Health care (or drugs) and you only create these analogies because you lack the ability of construct a real argument. (and because you only really care about being a jerk) If you read this thread, then you see every legitimate objection, has been addressed by multiple EVE PLAYERS. And the above crap is the best you can do. We have seen the effect GTC and Unholy rage has had on the game, and we know CCP is taking the problem seriously and it fighting effectively (also why we're winning this argument BTW). You just throw out the same weak arguments that have been very well cut down by multiple players. Then when you lose repeatedly, you just make stuff up. : p
How are you winning the argument in the least? CCP is fighting third party RMT by offering their own RMT. That is not fighting RMT. It is encouraging RMT with them. There is no way around that regardless of how much fanboy love is shown. Covering your ears and crying out lalalala - you're wrong; is not a means of effectively arguing against a simple fact - RMT is RMT.
You make several unfounded and biased claims in your post, which unfortunately for you is detrimental to your mistaken cause.
CCP does take the issue of getting the most money out of the game seriously - nobody has argued against that, so I am not sure why you bring that up in the way you have - it is kind of the point, no?
From encouraging scamming of players as part of the game through artificially protected ninja looting, CCP has done a great job since I started playing in the beginning of 2007...
I Think the funniest thing about your post, is how you claim to know the definative truth on every thing from CCP's fight with RTM's, to the US Health Care debate. Sorry, had to stop typing there I'm laughing so hard. Guess we're just lucky to even hear your thoughts.........
You should probably lay off the bong before you post. This thread isn't about Health care (or drugs) and you only create these analogies because you lack the ability of construct a real argument. (and because you only really care about being a jerk) If you read this thread, then you see every legitimate objection, has been addressed by multiple EVE PLAYERS. And the above crap is the best you can do. We have seen the effect GTC and Unholy rage has had on the game, and we know CCP is taking the problem seriously and it fighting effectively (also why we're winning this argument BTW). You just throw out the same weak arguments that have been very well cut down by multiple players. Then when you lose repeatedly, you just make stuff up. : p
How are you winning the argument in the least? CCP is fighting third party RMT by offering their own RMT. That is not fighting RMT. It is encouraging RMT with them. There is no way around that regardless of how much fanboy love is shown. Covering your ears and crying out lalalala - you're wrong; is not a means of effectively arguing against a simple fact - RMT is RMT.
You make several unfounded and biased claims in your post, which unfortunately for you is detrimental to your mistaken cause.
CCP does take the issue of getting the most money out of the game seriously - nobody has argued against that, so I am not sure why you bring that up in the way you have - it is kind of the point, no?
From encouraging scamming of players as part of the game through artificially protected ninja looting, CCP has done a great job since I started playing in the beginning of 2007...
You don't appear to like CCP very much, but regardless of that, your arguments are neither accurate nor conclusive, CCP's activities have no doubt disrupted RMT traders, and unfortunately a good few players who have used their services have obviously suffered as a consequence, but dont mix up game mechanics with scam techniques, the meta gaming aspect of Eve is part of the game, its not just a game after all where you have to repeatedly swing a sword at a goblin etc... about the only statement you made that is any way accurate, is the bit where you said, CCP has done a great job.. though i'd say overall rather than just since 2007..
Originally posted by qazyman I Think the funniest thing about your post, is how you claim to know the definative truth on every thing from CCP's fight with RTM's, to the US Health Care debate. Sorry, had to stop typing there I'm laughing so hard. Guess we're just lucky to even hear your thoughts.........
I claimed that a RMT is a RMT. If real money is spent for an in-game item, it is a real money transaction. Spending real money to buy a GTC to convert to PLEX to sell for ISK is spending real money for an in-game item. There is no getting around that.
I offered the sarcastic analogy of what somebody said being equivalent to what has been suggested with a Public Health Option (that analogy being premised on what the person said in stating that by CCP selling ISK, it has reduced the price of ISK from third party sellers - is that not a premise of what has been suggested with a Public Health Option? If the government sells insurance, it will reduce the price charged by insurance companies?)...
I think the funniest thing is that you are still posting on this. Have to ask, are you mining right now or something and this is passing the time?
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
You don't appear to like CCP very much, but regardless of that, your arguments are neither accurate nor conclusive, CCP's activities have no doubt disrupted RMT traders, and unfortunately a good few players who have used their services have obviously suffered as a consequence, but dont mix up game mechanics with scam techniques, the meta gaming aspect of Eve is part of the game, its not just a game after all where you have to repeatedly swing a sword at a goblin etc... about the only statement you made that is any way accurate, is the bit where you said, CCP has done a great job.. though i'd say overall rather than just since 2007..
I was not talking about PLEX in regard to scamming. I was talking about contracts, etc. Scamming is considered part of the game in that sense. I have not made any inaccurate statements. If there is anything that requires clarification, just ask.
It is not a case of not liking CCP. I generally recommend EVE to people looking for a MMORPG, albeit with a few caveats. Compared to most companies, they do a great job and have a great game. They have actually offered innovation while many companies have only offered regurgitation.
My main disagreement with them over the years has been on ninja salvaging (and how they made it easier with probing without addressing it). It always struck me as odd that the server considered the salvage as the property of the person that destroyed the ship - except - for some jury-rigged code allowing other players to salvage. They could not tractor, they could not fire on, etc. It was funny that my thoughts on it allowed for two possible resolutions:
1) Flag the salvager.
2) Allow them to tractor, fire, etc - actually fix it so that the server did not treat the salvage as belonging to the player that destroyed the ship. Perhaps nitpicking, but as it stood - it does come off as jury-rigged and nonsensical.
Other than that, it has always been a fun game.
I do not see what that has to do with fighting RMT with RMT though...
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
I could honestly care less about RMT. That being said... I do care about abuse.
Applies to everyone... If there is a bug/exploit they're using... find it, fix it. If they are botting and that is against the rules ban them.
I could give a piss in a windstorm about the rest. You can't bring more money into the economy than the game will allow it's that simple, if you remove all the hacks, exploits, and bugs the RMT are using to get gold ~outside the means of the average player~ then let them. It's their time, their effort, and their payment. It breaks the whole system when they are doing it in a way that violates the constraints of the system. It breaks the whole system if they're duping gold. It breaks the whole system if they have 500 computers running bots 24x7. So long as they're restricted to same rules as 'real players' I don't have an issue...
Course the people who buy might be, gold would be 10x more expensive. Oh well.
You don't appear to like CCP very much, but regardless of that, your arguments are neither accurate nor conclusive, CCP's activities have no doubt disrupted RMT traders, and unfortunately a good few players who have used their services have obviously suffered as a consequence, but dont mix up game mechanics with scam techniques, the meta gaming aspect of Eve is part of the game, its not just a game after all where you have to repeatedly swing a sword at a goblin etc... about the only statement you made that is any way accurate, is the bit where you said, CCP has done a great job.. though i'd say overall rather than just since 2007..
I was not talking about PLEX in regard to scamming. I was talking about contracts, etc. Scamming is considered part of the game in that sense. I have not made any inaccurate statements. If there is anything that requires clarification, just ask.
It is not a case of not liking CCP. I generally recommend EVE to people looking for a MMORPG, albeit with a few caveats. Compared to most companies, they do a great job and have a great game. They have actually offered innovation while many companies have only offered regurgitation.
My main disagreement with them over the years has been on ninja salvaging (and how they made it easier with probing without addressing it). It always struck me as odd that the server considered the salvage as the property of the person that destroyed the ship - except - for some jury-rigged code allowing other players to salvage. They could not tractor, they could not fire on, etc. It was funny that my thoughts on it allowed for two possible resolutions:
1) Flag the salvager.
2) Allow them to tractor, fire, etc - actually fix it so that the server did not treat the salvage as belonging to the player that destroyed the ship. Perhaps nitpicking, but as it stood - it does come off as jury-rigged and nonsensical.
Other than that, it has always been a fun game.
I do not see what that has to do with fighting RMT with RMT though...
The facts are some players don't want to face the truth. CCP created plex to muscle in on the RMT business and get a slice of the action themselves. The side effect is however that the gold sellers have all under cut them and now you can get plex from them cheaper than buying it from CCP. Sure CCP still sells them for the same ammount however it's backfired and caused a massive proliferation of botting and purchases from gold sellers against the eula.
In short CCP has bit off more than they could chew and started a price war that they can't possibly hope to win and now they're crying about it.
No one is saying plex is bad for the player or that EVE is a bad game, people are just saying that CCP is full of BS when they talk about stopping RMT. It's just alot of the playerbase in this game with such a steep learning curve for some reason have a difficulty understanding these few simple and obvious facts.
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience"
Comments
wrong again when u buy a card u can be a reseller there are many websites for reseling cards that sell the GTC but the PLEX is not longer a code is a virtual item on a database owned by CCP and the plex is copyrighted by CCP so u cant sell what u dont own but yes u can sell the GTC itself
selling PLEX on ebay is against the EULA selling GTC on ebay is allowed, if anyone sell a plex on ebay for money is a scam(also against ebay EULA) because the plex show the GTC that generated that plex and the buyer can be tracked by the system
Well it's an interesting theory but most gold selling sites will sell plex along side EVE ISK and they sell plex for less than CCP sell it. If they're scamming people how do they stay in business? I mean gold sellers do a shady business but they're in it for a profit and repeat business that keeps them going not to scam.
It sounds good on paper but all that's happened is that plex has become another item for gold sellers to barter and a motivating factor for the botters that provide those sites with their products yes?
What I think is happening is what another guy said in this thread earlier. Some guy at CCP had a brain fart and cooked up this idea of selling plex to muscle in on the gold sellers and damage their business. All that has happened is that the Gold sellers have under cut CCP and sell plex for less than them. CCP have two options,
1: Clamp down on the botters (the main customers of plex).
2: Lower the price of plex under cutting the gold seller.
Each option means CCP lose income, they stop botting their sales of plex drop dramatically at the same time the price of ISK inflates on gold selling sites and it becomes far more profitable for even non botters to sell ISK on those sites than buy plex off CCP. However CCP will ultimately lose subscribers and alot of plex heads.
Lowering the price of plex means a price war with the gold sellers, CCP have to effectively lower their subscription fee and income until they can put them out of business and make the purchase of plex from anyone else too expensive. Ultimately CCP don't know if they can win the price war and even if they could it might cost them dearly and they'd lose subs if they tried to raise the price of plex again once they'd won. Also there's nothing stopping the gold sellers selling it again, IF CCP won.
So CCP has become the gold seller but is up against guys with alot more experience, it's like making a car to compete with Mercedes Benz good luck!
So what does CCP do? They do as they always have and maintain the status quo release some BS to the press about how they want to stop RMT ... erm well not their RMT but the guys that are under cutting them and effectively lowering the sub fee of EVE (which is nothing if you use a free roid ripper bot!).
Botters don't get banned unless they brag about it and become an embaressment to CCP, otherwise they're left in peace. I mean CCP employees play in large alliances that have their own fleets of mining bots and know all about it, effectively they endorse botting in practice but speak against it to the sheep that will listen. They thought plex would cut them in on the RMT business, instead it's caused their subscription fee to be one of the cheapest around and nothing if you bot. They're angry and confused, they've fought their way into a corner and don't know how to get out!
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience"
CS Lewis
wrong again when u buy a card u can be a reseller there are many websites for reseling cards that sell the GTC but the PLEX is not longer a code is a virtual item on a database owned by CCP and the plex is copyrighted by CCP so u cant sell what u dont own but yes u can sell the GTC itself
selling PLEX on ebay is against the EULA selling GTC on ebay is allowed, if anyone sell a plex on ebay for money is a scam(also against ebay EULA) because the plex show the GTC that generated that plex and the buyer can be tracked by the system
Well it's an interesting theory but most gold selling sites will sell plex along side EVE ISK and they sell plex for less than CCP sell it. If they're scamming people how do they stay in business? I mean gold sellers do a shady business but they're in it for a profit and repeat business that keeps them going not to scam.
It sounds good on paper but all that's happened is that plex has become another item for gold sellers to barter and a motivating factor for the botters that provide those sites with their products yes?
What I think is happening is what another guy said in this thread earlier. Come guy at CCP had a brain fart and cooked up this idea of selling plex to muscle in on the gold sellers and damage their business. All that has happened is that the Gold sellers have under cut CCP and sell plex for less than them. CCP have two options,
1: Clamp down on the botters (the main customers of plex).
2: Lower the price of plex under cutting the gold seller.
Each option means CCP lose income, they stop botting their sales of plex drop dramatically at the same time the price of ISK inflates on gold selling sites and it becomes far more profitable for even non botters to sell ISK on those sites than buy plex off CCP. However CCP will ultimately lose subscribers and alot of plex heads.
Lowering the price of plex means a price war with the gold sellers, CCP have to effectively lower their subscription fee and income until they can put them out of business and make the purchase of plex from anyone else too expensive. Ultimately CCP don't know if they can win the price war and even if they could it might cost them dearly and they'd lose subs if they tried to raise the price of plex again once they'd won. Also there's nothing stopping the gold sellers selling it again, IF CCP won.
So CCP has become the gold seller but is up against guys with alot more experience, it's like making a car to compete with Mercedes Benz good luck!
So what does CCP do? They do as they always have and maintain the status quo release some BS to the press about how they want to stop RMT ... erm well not their RMT but the guys that are under cutting them and effectively lowering the sub fee of EVE (which is nothing if you use a free roid ripper bot!).
Botters don't get banned unless they brag about it and become an embaressment to CCP, otherwise they're left in peace. I mean CCP employees play in large alliances that have their own fleets of mining bots and know all about it, effectively they endorse botting in practice but speak against it to the sheep that will listen. They thought plex would cut them in on the RMT business, instead it's caused their subscription fee to be one of the cheapest around and nothing if you bot. They're angry and confused, they've fought their way into a corner and don't know how to get out!
Now you're just lying : (
Agricola you got this thing on your mind and nobody will change it unless u start to test this things by yourself
if ppl buy PLEX from gold sellers they are simply retarded because if they BUY ISK the isk is removed from the account and the user get a warning, if u buy plex i bet is instant ban because u are cheating whit subscription
i dont remember wery well the deails but back when red overlord mega boss that is aluminum tycoon in real life spend 100 000 dollars on ISk from gold sellers in order to build a alliance on eve CCP banned him and any account involved on that and then he spend another 100 000 dollar on plex and financed/build red overlord alliance
BestSigEver :P
Again in theory it sounds good, so answer me this how do those ISK sellers stay in business and why would they still be selling ISK and plex on their site if it just got wiped after the customer got delivery or the customer got a ban?
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience"
CS Lewis
so u say normal ppl play 23h per day ?
Normal people get into fleet fight on servers that have no macro farmers. Macro farmers stay away from hostile areas and tend to go to somewhere where they can have their own server. Major lag in game is when 2000 people tries to fight in the same server. Failing to realize this means you fail at EVE. CCP is blaming someone else for their bad coding. And instead of fixing major game problems they focus on marginal stuff. It's like when congress of one country discusses how to change the name of French Fries into Freedom Fries while their bridges are falling down from lack on maintenance.
Get it now?
You didn't have to write all that when you could have just said that you dont know anything about EVE.
Pro-Tip™ for your next troll: EvE only has one server, one shard...
Give me liberty or give me lasers
Again in theory it sounds good, so answer me this how do those ISK sellers stay in business and why would they still be selling ISK and plex on their site if it just got wiped after the customer got delivery or the customer got a ban?
Well if you can believe it, some ISK sellers are so mean and naughty that they dont give refunds
Give me liberty or give me lasers
Again in theory it sounds good, so answer me this how do those ISK sellers stay in business and why would they still be selling ISK and plex on their site if it just got wiped after the customer got delivery or the customer got a ban?
Well if you can believe it, some ISK sellers are so mean and naughty that they dont give refunds
I find that hard to believe!
(I was being sarcastic there)
It's just I have friends that've been playing eve for years and some bot, some buy isk and some sell it but only one was ever caught after bragging constantly in local everyday about how much RL money he made from his fleet of mining bots. He eventually got his accounts banned but still bots the same today without bragging. So the theory that you get caught by CCP after purchasing ISK/Plex everytime is just not true. It's more the exception to the rule and I think we all know it.
As for the other guy he probably meant a seperate server blade, since the EVE server is just alot of servers put together handling different zones. They need to give Jita it's own server if they haven't already since thet would lock down after 500 people entered when I used to play anyway.
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience"
CS Lewis
It is funny watching people defend this as something good.
What CCP complains about:
"Players" farming ISK to sell for real money.
How CCP resolved that:
"Players" farming ISK to buy PLEX which are sold for real money.
They may as well go full blown with their micro-shop and just sell ships, modules, and other items for cash.
It used to tick me off that the ex bought gold for WoW, but in all honesty - how was it any different than my buying PLEX? Is it about the botters? Then do something about them, eh? You cannot say you are fighting RMTs by offering RMTs... how about the government announces a new anti-drug policy by offering to sell the drugs themselves? Uh huh...
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%
Again in theory it sounds good, so answer me this how do those ISK sellers stay in business and why would they still be selling ISK and plex on their site if it just got wiped after the customer got delivery or the customer got a ban?
Well if you can believe it, some ISK sellers are so mean and naughty that they dont give refunds
I find that hard to believe!
(I was being sarcastic there)
It's just I have friends that've been playing eve for years and some bot, some buy isk and some sell it but only one was ever caught after bragging constantly in local everyday about how much RL money he made from his fleet of mining bots. He eventually got his accounts banned but still bots the same today without bragging. So the theory that you get caught by CCP after purchasing ISK/Plex everytime is just not true. It's more the exception to the rule and I think we all know it.
As for the other guy he probably meant a seperate server blade, since the EVE server is just alot of servers put together handling different zones. They need to give Jita it's own server if they haven't already since thet would lock down after 500 people entered when I used to play anyway.
Jita quite often has far in excess of 500, and its not a problem, so perhaps there have been a few improvements, a couple of days ago, nearly 400 of us took out a station in 0.0, while there was some lag, it was very slight - it only started when we opened fire! CCP arent just working on removing RMT's their also working hard on making the server more capable and refining the software where necessary - imo, the only people complaining about CCP's actions in dealing with the RMT's are those who have either;
a. been penalised for using said services.
b. profited from carrying out said activities.
c. dont like Eve anyway...
Personally i would commend any MMO company that is proactive in dealing with RMT.
Jita has it's own node for a while now. hard-limit is about 1400 players in system, with no noticeable lag.
I don't know if you're being unintentionally ironic, but that's a pretty well proven way to greatly reduce the harm that drug use causes.
Please remember that the only thing CCP sell is game time. That's a pretty important distinction, because it provides a brake down the slippery slope fallacy that you tried to introduce. What you're saying is akin to accusing someone who hires the neighbours kid to do his gardening: "Well you're paying money to get a child to do the work on your land, why dont you just be honest with yourself and call yourself a child slave-owner, because that's all that slave owners do: pay to have other people do the work". Who gets the money and on what terms makes all the difference here.
Agricola's hyperbole and creatively sourced statistics* notwithstanding, most EVE players are pretty relaxed about the PLEX system because we know that it does not, in fact, cause many problems. Your drug analogy is a good one here. Driving the trade underground would cause vastly more problems than regulating and limiting it. On the other hand if CCP did try to introduce an item shop, I can absolutely assure you that there would be a vast uproar. Allowing PLEX for ISK is tolerated because it's basically impossible to just "buy win" with ISK in EVE. The system is homeostatic in too many ways. If you tried to spend a million dollars to fit your whole alliance out in motherships, you'd crash the PLEX market, and you'd get a low amount of ISK for your PLEX. And because unsupported motherships are horribly vulnerable, any advantage you got would be rather evanescent in any case. In short, you'd pretty quickly lose them. Players who do try to "buy win" are something of a standing joke. They're held in contempt, if anything. Rather than a threat, they're seen as a kind of pinata, a lucky loot spawn, with the added satisfaction of knowing that you just cost some idiot real life loss.
The rather dull, boring fact is that the great majority of people who sell PLEX are people who work all week and want to PvP at the weekend. They sell a PLEX now and then, buy a HAC and maybe a Battlecruiser or two, and off they go. They're not e-gangsters. They just want to pay someone a month of subs to do some grinding for them.
No MMO with any kind of economy is free from RMT. CCP's method of dealing with it is more liberal, mature and customer-friendly than most.
*If you actually stop and think about the things that he's accusing CCP, and remember that someone has to actually pay real money to create those PLEX, the accusations simply dont make sense.
Give me liberty or give me lasers
There are many many ways for players to exploit the PLEX system, and saying that most players don't consider it a problem has little value. Also saying that ISK doesnt help you win in EVE is also not really true.
Lets consider a guy with 10 accounts running his industry operation in some safe alliance space, he makes alot of isk and pays for his accounts through PLEX,. Would he pay 150dollars per month for these accounts? - probably not.... Now consider a newish player who would like to break into industry or trade, well tough luck, there is no room for obvious reasons. Is this healthy for EVE? Absolutely not, you reducing the things new players can do thus providing a worse playing experience. Essentially the PLEX system allows fro more concentration of wealth.
On the other hand if you want to compete against this guy you really need huge amounts of ISK investemt to develop your operations, realistically there are only 3 ways to do it, trade (not easy and very time consuming), scam, or buying ISK (selling PLEXes).
These days if you are newish the only thing to do is run missions if you want ISK, everything else is much less efficient and that is a problem for EVE.
Players use money to buy PLEX to buy ISK....Players Bot mine to gain ISK to buy PLEX....how exactly have they solved RMT and botting? And why should others copy them?
Just to point out to people here... CCP have allowed the sale of GTC's via their forums at least since june 2007 (going by the earliest post in the 'Timecode Bazaar' on their official forums).
So to say the least, this isnt a "new" thing as it were... infact if anything since then the price for 60 days of game time has gone UP in ISK value whilst the $ value has remained fairly static (30 days now going for about 270million IN game, 60days GTC about 510million on the forums) , whereas originally 90days GTC was about 400million...
BUT i have also seen some PLEX's accidentally sell for 150mill (or less) on the market as well is in excess of 350mill on ther market.
So in reality... how much is 30days game time worth in terms of ISK?
Its whatever the player SELLING the gametime values it to be at that point in time (or a very stupid mistake pricing it up on the market).
Can CCP ever *truely* stop the selling of isk via ISk selling websites? No, but they can try to limit it though; and this method of "selling gametime for ISK" is one method that at least the community prefers and has accepted...
Still, nothing better than blowing up a players ship knowing that he bought it with ISK obtained from selling a GTC, especially if you were the one who bought the GTC
again lack of knowledge in action a GTC is 35 dollar and that means 2 PLEX in eve the PLEX price change in eve because is set by players ( u can check the price here www.eve-central.com/home/quicklook.html ) so any gold seller that want to stay in bussines have to put a much lower price on ISK so they can compete whit the PLEX system
old chart before the PLEX system was introduced
on the left is the price for 1 billion ISK
BestSigEver :P
The sophistry you attempt to offer with your "akin" is pretty far off from what I stated. You cannot say you are fighting RMT by using RMT.
The distinction you offer would be fine, if they only did sell game time - but they do not. The PLEX can be traded for ISK. Real Money -> PLEX -> ISK. Many companies sell GTCs - they do not have a means to convert said GTC into game money. That distinction is key.
Player A:
Farms ISK. Sells the ISK illegally to players for real money. Uses some of the real money to pay for their game time.
Player B:
Buys illegal ISK for his/her character with real money.
Player C:
Buys GTCs for real money, converts them to PLEX, and sells them in game for ISK.
Player
Farms ISK. Buys PLEX to pay for their game time.
The main difference between what Player A/B are doing and Player C/D? CCP gets the money. So the synopsis of the way that CCP is suggesting game companies fight people selling items in their games for real money? The game companies should sell it themselves. There are already micro-transactions/item shops out there - and a lot of people hate them.
Now if you wanted to make a case about CCP suggesting an alternative means to allow players to buy real game items for money that could reduce server load from botting and the like, then fine - you have that - but be honest about what it is...
...that is where my example about the government comes into play. If you are suggesting that you are fighting the drug problem by selling the drugs yourself, you are full of crap. However, by selling the drugs themselves - they might cut down on some of the issues associated with the selling of drugs.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%
again lack of knowledge in action a GTC is 35 dollar and that means 2 PLEX in eve the PLEX price change in eve because is set by players ( u can check the price here www.eve-central.com/home/quicklook.html ) so any gold seller that want to stay in bussines have to put a much lower price on ISK so they can compete whit the PLEX system
So what you are saying is, that a Public Health Option will address the high cost of healthcare by forcing the insurance companies to compete at an artificial level...right?
Which would be great if we were talking about that...but the guy asked about RMT and botting.
Instead of conducting a RMT with a third party, you can do it with CCP.
Instead of botting for ISK to sell to a third party so you can pay for your game time, you can bot for ISK to buy PLEX from another player that conducted a RMT with CCP.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%
again lack of knowledge in action a GTC is 35 dollar and that means 2 PLEX in eve the PLEX price change in eve because is set by players ( u can check the price here www.eve-central.com/home/quicklook.html ) so any gold seller that want to stay in bussines have to put a much lower price on ISK so they can compete whit the PLEX system
So what you are saying is, that a Public Health Option will address the high cost of healthcare by forcing the insurance companies to compete at an artificial level...right?
Which would be great if we were talking about that...but the guy asked about RMT and botting.
Instead of conducting a RMT with a third party, you can do it with CCP.
Instead of botting for ISK to sell to a third party so you can pay for your game time, you can bot for ISK to buy PLEX from another player that conducted a RMT with CCP.
You should probably lay off the bong before you post. This thread isn't about Health care (or drugs) and you only create these analogies because you lack the ability of construct a real argument. (and because you only really care about being a jerk) If you read this thread, then you see every legitimate objection, has been addressed by multiple EVE PLAYERS.
And the above crap is the best you can do. We have seen the effect GTC and Unholy rage has had on the game, and we know CCP is taking the problem seriously and it fighting effectively (also why we're winning this argument BTW). You just throw out the same weak arguments that have been very well cut down by multiple players. Then when you lose repeatedly, you just make stuff up. : p
How are you winning the argument in the least? CCP is fighting third party RMT by offering their own RMT. That is not fighting RMT. It is encouraging RMT with them. There is no way around that regardless of how much fanboy love is shown. Covering your ears and crying out lalalala - you're wrong; is not a means of effectively arguing against a simple fact - RMT is RMT.
You make several unfounded and biased claims in your post, which unfortunately for you is detrimental to your mistaken cause.
CCP does take the issue of getting the most money out of the game seriously - nobody has argued against that, so I am not sure why you bring that up in the way you have - it is kind of the point, no?
From encouraging scamming of players as part of the game through artificially protected ninja looting, CCP has done a great job since I started playing in the beginning of 2007...
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%
How are you winning the argument in the least? CCP is fighting third party RMT by offering their own RMT. That is not fighting RMT. It is encouraging RMT with them. There is no way around that regardless of how much fanboy love is shown. Covering your ears and crying out lalalala - you're wrong; is not a means of effectively arguing against a simple fact - RMT is RMT.
You make several unfounded and biased claims in your post, which unfortunately for you is detrimental to your mistaken cause.
CCP does take the issue of getting the most money out of the game seriously - nobody has argued against that, so I am not sure why you bring that up in the way you have - it is kind of the point, no?
From encouraging scamming of players as part of the game through artificially protected ninja looting, CCP has done a great job since I started playing in the beginning of 2007...
I Think the funniest thing about your post, is how you claim to know the definative truth on every thing from CCP's fight with RTM's, to the US Health Care debate. Sorry, had to stop typing there I'm laughing so hard. Guess we're just lucky to even hear your thoughts.........
How are you winning the argument in the least? CCP is fighting third party RMT by offering their own RMT. That is not fighting RMT. It is encouraging RMT with them. There is no way around that regardless of how much fanboy love is shown. Covering your ears and crying out lalalala - you're wrong; is not a means of effectively arguing against a simple fact - RMT is RMT.
You make several unfounded and biased claims in your post, which unfortunately for you is detrimental to your mistaken cause.
CCP does take the issue of getting the most money out of the game seriously - nobody has argued against that, so I am not sure why you bring that up in the way you have - it is kind of the point, no?
From encouraging scamming of players as part of the game through artificially protected ninja looting, CCP has done a great job since I started playing in the beginning of 2007...
You don't appear to like CCP very much, but regardless of that, your arguments are neither accurate nor conclusive, CCP's activities have no doubt disrupted RMT traders, and unfortunately a good few players who have used their services have obviously suffered as a consequence, but dont mix up game mechanics with scam techniques, the meta gaming aspect of Eve is part of the game, its not just a game after all where you have to repeatedly swing a sword at a goblin etc... about the only statement you made that is any way accurate, is the bit where you said, CCP has done a great job.. though i'd say overall rather than just since 2007..
I claimed that a RMT is a RMT. If real money is spent for an in-game item, it is a real money transaction. Spending real money to buy a GTC to convert to PLEX to sell for ISK is spending real money for an in-game item. There is no getting around that.
I offered the sarcastic analogy of what somebody said being equivalent to what has been suggested with a Public Health Option (that analogy being premised on what the person said in stating that by CCP selling ISK, it has reduced the price of ISK from third party sellers - is that not a premise of what has been suggested with a Public Health Option? If the government sells insurance, it will reduce the price charged by insurance companies?)...
I think the funniest thing is that you are still posting on this. Have to ask, are you mining right now or something and this is passing the time?
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%
I was not talking about PLEX in regard to scamming. I was talking about contracts, etc. Scamming is considered part of the game in that sense. I have not made any inaccurate statements. If there is anything that requires clarification, just ask.
It is not a case of not liking CCP. I generally recommend EVE to people looking for a MMORPG, albeit with a few caveats. Compared to most companies, they do a great job and have a great game. They have actually offered innovation while many companies have only offered regurgitation.
My main disagreement with them over the years has been on ninja salvaging (and how they made it easier with probing without addressing it). It always struck me as odd that the server considered the salvage as the property of the person that destroyed the ship - except - for some jury-rigged code allowing other players to salvage. They could not tractor, they could not fire on, etc. It was funny that my thoughts on it allowed for two possible resolutions:
1) Flag the salvager.
2) Allow them to tractor, fire, etc - actually fix it so that the server did not treat the salvage as belonging to the player that destroyed the ship. Perhaps nitpicking, but as it stood - it does come off as jury-rigged and nonsensical.
Other than that, it has always been a fun game.
I do not see what that has to do with fighting RMT with RMT though...
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%
I could honestly care less about RMT. That being said... I do care about abuse.
Applies to everyone...
If there is a bug/exploit they're using... find it, fix it.
If they are botting and that is against the rules ban them.
I could give a piss in a windstorm about the rest. You can't bring more money into the economy than the game will allow it's that simple, if you remove all the hacks, exploits, and bugs the RMT are using to get gold ~outside the means of the average player~ then let them. It's their time, their effort, and their payment. It breaks the whole system when they are doing it in a way that violates the constraints of the system. It breaks the whole system if they're duping gold. It breaks the whole system if they have 500 computers running bots 24x7. So long as they're restricted to same rules as 'real players' I don't have an issue...
Course the people who buy might be, gold would be 10x more expensive. Oh well.
Shadus
I was not talking about PLEX in regard to scamming. I was talking about contracts, etc. Scamming is considered part of the game in that sense. I have not made any inaccurate statements. If there is anything that requires clarification, just ask.
It is not a case of not liking CCP. I generally recommend EVE to people looking for a MMORPG, albeit with a few caveats. Compared to most companies, they do a great job and have a great game. They have actually offered innovation while many companies have only offered regurgitation.
My main disagreement with them over the years has been on ninja salvaging (and how they made it easier with probing without addressing it). It always struck me as odd that the server considered the salvage as the property of the person that destroyed the ship - except - for some jury-rigged code allowing other players to salvage. They could not tractor, they could not fire on, etc. It was funny that my thoughts on it allowed for two possible resolutions:
1) Flag the salvager.
2) Allow them to tractor, fire, etc - actually fix it so that the server did not treat the salvage as belonging to the player that destroyed the ship. Perhaps nitpicking, but as it stood - it does come off as jury-rigged and nonsensical.
Other than that, it has always been a fun game.
I do not see what that has to do with fighting RMT with RMT though...
The facts are some players don't want to face the truth. CCP created plex to muscle in on the RMT business and get a slice of the action themselves. The side effect is however that the gold sellers have all under cut them and now you can get plex from them cheaper than buying it from CCP. Sure CCP still sells them for the same ammount however it's backfired and caused a massive proliferation of botting and purchases from gold sellers against the eula.
In short CCP has bit off more than they could chew and started a price war that they can't possibly hope to win and now they're crying about it.
No one is saying plex is bad for the player or that EVE is a bad game, people are just saying that CCP is full of BS when they talk about stopping RMT. It's just alot of the playerbase in this game with such a steep learning curve for some reason have a difficulty understanding these few simple and obvious facts.
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience"
CS Lewis