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I just love it when people think they're paying for a beta... *rolls eyes*

johnmatthaisjohnmatthais Florence, SCPosts: 2,663Member

 Yeah, you know who I'm talking about. All those people that boycotted games like Mortal, Star Trek and Global Agenda because pre-orders came with beta.

I don't get you people. You're telling me it's okay to include pre-order benefits like an extra outfit or an extra pre-order only vehicle that will never be available after the game releases but it's not okay to include closed beta access as a pre-order benefit?

Games like Natural Selection 2 and Overgrowth are including every phase of development with pre-orders. Both are in alpha. Both allow you to toy with everything the devs do except the source code. I've heard no complaints from any of them yet.

So why do MMO gamers frequently complain about pre-order closed beta access?

Is it because you're all cheap tightwads that think that if you can't try a game for free that the dev isn't worth your money? Or is it that you really think that's all you're paying for?

Wake up. You're paying for the game and a free month of gameplay. The beta is a pre-order benefit, nothing more. It means devs figure that anyone willing to pay up front is dedicated enough to the game to playtest and not just milk free playtime.

I don't know how many complaints I've seen about this.

Just saying...

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Comments

  • WickedjellyWickedjelly Yahoo, COPosts: 4,990Member
    Originally posted by johnmatthais


     Yeah, you know who I'm talking about. All those people that boycotted games like Mortal, Star Trek and Global Agenda because pre-orders came with beta.
    I don't get you people. You're telling me it's okay to include pre-order benefits like an extra outfit or an extra pre-order only vehicle that will never be available after the game releases but it's not okay to include closed beta access as a pre-order benefit?
    Games like Natural Selection 2 and Overgrowth are including every phase of development with pre-orders. Both are in alpha. Both allow you to toy with everything the devs do except the source code. I've heard no complaints from any of them yet.
    So why do MMO gamers frequently complain about pre-order closed beta access?
    Is it because you're all cheap tightwads that think that if you can't try a game for free that the dev isn't worth your money? Or is it that you really think that's all you're paying for?
    Wake up. You're paying for the game and a free month of gameplay. The beta is a pre-order benefit, nothing more. It means devs figure that anyone willing to pay up front is dedicated enough to the game to playtest and not just milk free playtime.
    I don't know how many complaints I've seen about this.
    Just saying...



     

    The irony is most of the times I've seen that complaint used toward games it's focused on games that still give out free beta keys.  All the preorder does is get them in sooner or guarantee them a spot.

    1. For god's sake mmo gamers, enough with the analogies. They're unnecessary and your comparisons are terrible, dissimilar, and illogical.

    2. To posters feeling the need to state how f2p really isn't f2p: Players understand the concept. You aren't privy to some secret the rest are missing. You're embarrassing yourself.

    3. Yes, Cpt. Obvious, we're not industry experts. Now run along and let the big people use the forums for their purpose.

  • johnmatthaisjohnmatthais Florence, SCPosts: 2,663Member
    Originally posted by Wickedjelly


    The irony is most of the times I've seen that complaint used toward games it's focused on games that still give out free beta keys.  All the preorder does is get them in sooner or guarantee them a spot.

    I know, but the point is that it does, in fact, get them more (free) playtime and guarantee them a spot. In the case of Global Agenda, there was no open beta.

    I also don't get what the beef with Mortal is now that it's in an unlimited open beta. I really doubt it's releasing any time soon. I see it pulling a huge Sociolotron and being in open beta for like a year. It hasn't even hit a true 0.2 let alone 1.0.

  • grandpagamergrandpagamer Perrydice, IAPosts: 2,221Member

    I dont think people have a problem with preordering to get  a spot in beta as much as they have a problem with that after they preorder, get into beta they then  find out the game sucks. At that point they feel like they have been cheated, which in some cases, they have.

  • johnmatthaisjohnmatthais Florence, SCPosts: 2,663Member
    Originally posted by grandpagamer


    I dont think people have a problem with preordering to get  a spot in beta as much as they have a problem with that after they preorder, get into beta they then  find out the game sucks. At that point they feel like they have been cheated, which in some cases, they have.

    Maybe in the case of games like Mourning but a lot of people complained about Global Agenda, which is one of the most stable betas I've been in, which is mostly why I started this topic. There was no cheating going on with GA and no one's forcing them to pay monthly to play it.

  • WickedjellyWickedjelly Yahoo, COPosts: 4,990Member
    Originally posted by grandpagamer


    I dont think people have a problem with preordering to get  a spot in beta as much as they have a problem with that after they preorder, get into beta they then  find out the game sucks. At that point they feel like they have been cheated, which in some cases, they have.



     

    Oh, I don't know 'bout that man. Certainly some do feel that way but think about all the topics made when a new beta starts up just on this forum  alone that go:

    "Wtf, I've been playing mmos for over thirty years and never did you have to pay to be in beta.  This company is fail, you paid beta players are fail, anyone that considers this is fail. This injustice will not stand!", and so on to infinity

     Anyways, about the only thing you'll see me comment on if a game were to go the GA route is I think to a minor degree it hurts their marketing potential.  There are those that might become interested in a game if they get a chance to try it out that might not have even considered the game beforehand.  Other than that, I don't have a problem with it.  Hell, to a degree I think it's smart companies do that.  It has been proven time and time again that offereing that feature does incur some to preorder.

    1. For god's sake mmo gamers, enough with the analogies. They're unnecessary and your comparisons are terrible, dissimilar, and illogical.

    2. To posters feeling the need to state how f2p really isn't f2p: Players understand the concept. You aren't privy to some secret the rest are missing. You're embarrassing yourself.

    3. Yes, Cpt. Obvious, we're not industry experts. Now run along and let the big people use the forums for their purpose.

  • ShiymmasShiymmas Jackson, MSPosts: 587Member

    I think you have to consider that with an MMO comes a fee to be able to play.  Once you've bought the game, the only way you'll ever be able to access it is with an active subscription.  With other genres this isn't the case.  You'll always have access to that game to play whenever you get ready to do so, be it the moment it's installed, or a year down the road when you want to revisit.  On top of that, it's much harder to feel burned on a purchase of a game that can be returned or re-sold so easily as a single or multiplayer game that doesn't require a fee.  In many cases, those games have a demo or trial from day one, being as they take no load on a server and can hand them out to let people sample their game, enticing them to buy.  On top of all that, unlike an MMO which will mature and scale with its population (economy, earned locations, gear, etc.) these are issues that don't exist elsewhere.

    Because of all that, people want to be able to try an MMO prior to its release to ensure their decision to buy is well made, especially if they want to be ahead of the curve, which as we all know is advantageous in most MMO's.  The trouble is, these days, developers rarely have truly free open betas, and regardless of the fee, it kinda defeats the purpose if someone is on the fence about a game they may otherwise try and buy if given the opportunity.  However, I can see where these companies can't just open the flood gates to the masses, so I understand why fees are being charged up front these days, but you still have to understand the perspective of the average consumer as well.

    "The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it."
    George Bernard Shaw


    “What is a cynic? A man who knows the price of everything and the value of nothing.”
    Oscar Wilde

  • grandpagamergrandpagamer Perrydice, IAPosts: 2,221Member
    Originally posted by Wickedjelly

    Originally posted by grandpagamer


    I dont think people have a problem with preordering to get  a spot in beta as much as they have a problem with that after they preorder, get into beta they then  find out the game sucks. At that point they feel like they have been cheated, which in some cases, they have.



     

    Oh, I don't know 'bout that man. Certainly some do feel that way but think about all the topics made when a new beta starts up just on this forum  alone that go:

    "Wtf, I've been playing mmos for over thirty years and never did you have to pay to be in beta.  This company is fail, you paid beta players are fail, anyone that considers this is fail. This injustice will not stand!", and so on to infinity

     

    Well, I feel like I paid for Aion beta. It cost me only $5 as I never picked up my preorder. I feel like it was money well spent as it saved me spending $45 more. So what exactly did I pay for if not beta? If it had been a "regular" preorder like a single player game I guess it would be up front money to reserve a copy, but I bought it for the beta key.

  • GTwanderGTwander San Diego, CAPosts: 6,035Member

    Heh, the thing I don't get is that people are far more vocal about how crappy a pre-ordered game is during open beta, when compared to those that pre-ordered and started playing post-launch. Maybe the thoughts going through their heads are as thus.

    Pre-ordering a crappy game and playing at launch.

    "The game was a waste of my money, though I know I'm not getting it back and I'm fine with that".

    Pre-ordering a crappy game and playing at a beta phase

    "This is the biggest pile ever, nothing works, and if I don't get my money back I'm going to sue."

     

     

    People are just f'n retarded. Plain and simple.

    Writer / Musician / Game Designer

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  • WW4BWWW4BW KoldingPosts: 493Member

    In the case of Mortal Online I can spot one problem. They have been selling access to beta for so long it's rediculous. And its still nowhere near launch.. Will they have the funds to ever actually launch the game.. And if they never get around to that will people be reimbursed for buying the preorder. Most likely not. In that case they will have paid for beta.

    Also I suppose a lot of those that preordered would be well within their right to ask for their money back seeing how long some have had to wait, and still wait.

    I recon its fine to push back a launch date, even several times.. But after it has gone as far as selling the game the game should be pretty damn close to being shipped. Not a year away.. loads of things can happen in that time.

  • rhinokrhinok Anonymous, UTPosts: 1,798Member

     I think the real issue pertains to what constitutes "beta".  For most players, I believe "beta", closed or open, simply means "I'm cooler than you because I get to play the cool new game for free before anybody else".  Quality beta testers are few and far between.  So, is it wrong to charge players for early access to the game if that's all most of them want?  Additionally, there are issues with how some game companies actually run "betas":


    • Darkfall had a very small closed beta and no open beta. That's a game where I think the term "paid beta" applies, because the game launched before many players would say it was truly ready.  In essence, players were paying Aventurine to "complete" the game.

    • Earth Eternal has been in open beta since October 2008 and is charging customers for credit shop items (none of which are required to play the game).  The core mechanics of the game are pretty solid, but the game itself is really what I would consider "closed beta" quality.  It needs a lot of polish, IMO.  Is it a paid beta?  Kind of, in that they're funding development with advertising partners and credit shop sales while they polish the game.  Personally, I view the game as having been soft launched.

    ~Ripper

  • WickedjellyWickedjelly Yahoo, COPosts: 4,990Member
    Originally posted by grandpagamer


    Well, I feel like I paid for Aion beta. It cost me only $5 as I never picked up my preorder. I feel like it was money well spent as it saved me spending $45 more. So what exactly did I pay for if not beta? If it had been a "regular" preorder like a single player game I guess it would be up front money to reserve a copy, but I bought it for the beta key.



     

    Well, my main beef really is that most of the time these games still offer free keys anyways if you're patient enough.  I don't discount anyone that uses your method if you aren't able to get a key.  I'm more referring to the people that want a key now, now NOW! and go ballistic if there aren't any currently available without dropping down some money.

    I'm a cheap bastard though and due to my ability to trick my bosses into thinking I actually do work while I'm at my job I have plenty of time usually to go surfing for keys :P

    1. For god's sake mmo gamers, enough with the analogies. They're unnecessary and your comparisons are terrible, dissimilar, and illogical.

    2. To posters feeling the need to state how f2p really isn't f2p: Players understand the concept. You aren't privy to some secret the rest are missing. You're embarrassing yourself.

    3. Yes, Cpt. Obvious, we're not industry experts. Now run along and let the big people use the forums for their purpose.

  • Gabby-airGabby-air surrey, BCPosts: 3,440Member Uncommon

    MMO gamers have the mentality that developers own them stuff for no reason like stated, most of these companies do have open beta's so its not like you can complain but the bitching is here to stay. Also i was quite shocked to know that GA didn't have an open beta, being a well not that common concept and in general not the usual i thought they would rather try to market it through a OB but guess not.

  • johnmatthaisjohnmatthais Florence, SCPosts: 2,663Member
    Originally posted by Gabby-air


    MMO gamers have the mentality that developers own them stuff for no reason like stated, most of these companies do have open beta's so its not like you can complain but the bitching is here to stay. Also i was quite shocked to know that GA didn't have an open beta, being a well not that common concept and in general not the usual i thought they would rather try to market it through a OB but guess not.

    It's also a shooter at it's core, though, which is why I think it didn't go OB. It followed the market for FPS games, rather than MMOs, as it is a shooter first and an MMO second if you think about it correctly.

    Which is another reason I don't get why there was so much complaining about the paid beta thing. Less people that bought Daikatana complained than did the audience of people that bought GA.

  • WickedjellyWickedjelly Yahoo, COPosts: 4,990Member
    Originally posted by Gabby-air


    Also i was quite shocked to know that GA didn't have an open beta, being a well not that common concept and in general not the usual i thought they would rather try to market it through a OB but guess not.



     

    Yeah, I was a bit surprised by that myself for the same reason.

    1. For god's sake mmo gamers, enough with the analogies. They're unnecessary and your comparisons are terrible, dissimilar, and illogical.

    2. To posters feeling the need to state how f2p really isn't f2p: Players understand the concept. You aren't privy to some secret the rest are missing. You're embarrassing yourself.

    3. Yes, Cpt. Obvious, we're not industry experts. Now run along and let the big people use the forums for their purpose.

  • johnmatthaisjohnmatthais Florence, SCPosts: 2,663Member
    Originally posted by rhinok



    Earth Eternal has been in open beta since October 2008 and is charging customers for credit shop items (none of which are required to play the game).  The core mechanics of the game are pretty solid, but the game itself is really what I would consider "closed beta" quality.  It needs a lot of polish, IMO.  Is it a paid beta?  Kind of, in that they're funding development with advertising partners and credit shop sales while they polish the game.  Personally, I view the game as having been soft launched.

    That being said, it's in a much better state than Alganon ever has been. Especially considering they managed to make new technology incorporating a client-based game into a browser. Don't believe me? You can run the game straight off your hard drive.

  • ShijeerShijeer NottinghamPosts: 131Member

    The problem is with the age old paradigm of testing, which was for a long time implied to be free as in devs calling on gamers to -help develop- the game. Only recently have closed betas become the open betas of the past. I suspect newer gamers have no trouble with it though. 



    I must admit to finding it a bit uneasy myself, but if they also host giveaways and competitions its cool in my book.



    - Shijeer 

    image

  • DarkholmeDarkholme Wolfeboro, NHPosts: 1,201Member Uncommon

    Let me bottom line it. Beta testing is supposed to be about testing the game, it's not supposed to be a marketing tool. I realize that a lot of gamers don't use beta testing for that but are just looking for free game time and basically a "trial" to try out the game before they buy it. However it crosses a line when the games companies start using beta access as a marketing tool to sell their game instead of what it was supposed to be for. Just because it has become the norm for some companies does not make it alright...

    -------------------------
    "Searchers after horror haunt strange, far places..." ~ H.P.Lovecraft, "From Beyond"

  • zylon0zylon0 CandylandPosts: 36Member

    Why is it so hard to understand people don't like having to pay for a beta? They should be glad there are people willing to test their game for free. They are basicly volunteers.

  • WickedjellyWickedjelly Yahoo, COPosts: 4,990Member
    Originally posted by Darkholme


    Let me bottom line it. Beta testing is supposed to be about testing the game, it's not supposed to be a marketing tool. I realize that a lot of gamers don't use beta testing for that but are just looking for free game time and basically a "trial" to try out the game before they buy it. However it crosses a line when the games companies start using beta access as a marketing tool to sell their game instead of what it was supposed to be for. Just because it has become the norm for some companies does not make it alright...



     

    But at this point can you honestly say that the majority of players and companies don't see it this way any more?  Regardless whether some might still see it as simply wanting to test a game seems to me that on both sides anymore the player and the company see it as more of a marketing tool than anything else.

    I'm not saying I advocate this line of thinking but in this day and age I'm not sure you're going to see it change any except even more towards being used as a marketing tool.  If that's even possible but I'm sure companies will find a way.  Offering completely closed off betas except for preorders, having a separate "collector's edition" that includes the beta access that happens to cost more than a normal preorder, etc.

    The possibilities are endless although I'm sure they'll wade through them all eventually >_>

    1. For god's sake mmo gamers, enough with the analogies. They're unnecessary and your comparisons are terrible, dissimilar, and illogical.

    2. To posters feeling the need to state how f2p really isn't f2p: Players understand the concept. You aren't privy to some secret the rest are missing. You're embarrassing yourself.

    3. Yes, Cpt. Obvious, we're not industry experts. Now run along and let the big people use the forums for their purpose.

  • rhinokrhinok Anonymous, UTPosts: 1,798Member
    Originally posted by zylon0


    Why is it so hard to understand people don't like having to pay for a beta? They should be glad there are people willing to test their game for free. They are basicly volunteers.

    Except that there's rarely quality testing going on, as mentioned above...

    ~Ripper

  • zylon0zylon0 CandylandPosts: 36Member

    If people post a comment or suggestion about the game on forums or an ingame feedback section. I think thats about all you can expect.

    Quality testing is boring and is work. Who signs up for a beta just so he can run into every object he can find. circle around them jump into them trying to get stuck? So people just play the "game" take some enjoyment from it and maybe see if its the game for them to buy when it comes out after all there is no demo before they buy it.

    If they happen to run into problems or have other feedback they could share it. What else do you expect?

    As for contributions. They could monitor how often someone logs in and if he has shared anything through the feedback option in the game.

     

  • johnmatthaisjohnmatthais Florence, SCPosts: 2,663Member

     zylon, the issue with that is people don't just run into issues and report them. They run into issues, don't put them in the bug tracker and instead go complain everywhere related to the game they can. =P

  • Gabby-airGabby-air surrey, BCPosts: 3,440Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by johnmatthais

    Originally posted by rhinok



    Earth Eternal has been in open beta since October 2008 and is charging customers for credit shop items (none of which are required to play the game).  The core mechanics of the game are pretty solid, but the game itself is really what I would consider "closed beta" quality.  It needs a lot of polish, IMO.  Is it a paid beta?  Kind of, in that they're funding development with advertising partners and credit shop sales while they polish the game.  Personally, I view the game as having been soft launched.

    That being said, it's in a much better state than Alganon ever has been. Especially considering they managed to make new technology incorporating a client-based game into a browser. Don't believe me? You can run the game straight off your hard drive.

     

    Many free games have that and it's quite popular in korea if memory servers correctly, Archlord and combat arms are just two off the top of my head.

  • virtualfogvirtualfog yorktown, VAPosts: 92Member

     

    First Point:  People act online like they 'never' would in real life, usually.  So they will act in ways that are rude, self-centered, and just let their subconcious go wild. 

     

    Second Point:  Some people just are not that bright.  There are many different kinds of learners, and many different kinds of personalities.  Tag on to that a not too advanced intellect and some think that yelling and whining about things in the forums is a way to get heard.  Despite of course the 500,000 bug reports STO had before I left OB, and the thousands of posts on Crytpics Forums. 

     

    Lastly:  Some people just love to Troll, trash games that didn't meet their preimagined expectations (perhaps unrealistic), and want attention (Attn Whores). 

     

    I think that this is an over simplification, but desptie the fact that it is free, doesn't mean people won't act like ungrateful tards.

    Do not try to be a great gamer, just be a gamer. Cause, I don't care how good you are anyway.

  • zylon0zylon0 CandylandPosts: 36Member

     

    ""Yeah, you know who I'm talking about. All those people that boycotted games like Mortal, Star Trek and Global Agenda because pre-orders came with beta.

    I don't get you people. You're telling me it's okay to include pre-order benefits like an extra outfit or an extra pre-order only vehicle that will never be available after the game releases but it's not okay to include closed beta access as a pre-order benefit?

    Games like Natural Selection 2 and Overgrowth are including every phase of development with pre-orders. Both are in alpha. Both allow you to toy with everything the devs do except the source code. I've heard no complaints from any of them yet.

    So why do MMO gamers frequently complain about pre-order closed beta access?

    Is it because you're all cheap tightwads that think that if you can't try a game for free that the dev isn't worth your money? Or is it that you really think that's all you're paying for?

    Wake up. You're paying for the game and a free month of gameplay. The beta is a pre-order benefit, nothing more. It means devs figure that anyone willing to pay up front is dedicated enough to the game to playtest and not just milk free playtime.

    I don't know how many complaints I've seen about this.

    Just saying...""

     

     

    Just anyone willing to lay down money does not sound like a good selection method to me. What happened to those long application forms for beta testing, system info, age, past experience with mmorpgs etc etc.

    Seems more useful to me then someone with premium access to download the beta and play "cough" i mean test. Yes it has turned into an income generating marketing tool and some people do not like that at all. Especially if they got hyped by a game, hear the beta is about to begin and then run into the known fileplanet blockade. Money pls or no beta access.

    And now it seems its preorder or no beta access.

    I'm actually curious as to why the consumers reaction makes you so annoyed. Afterall its just feedback.

     

     

    (forgot to use the quote button so I fixed it like this)

     

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