Instances and PvP don't mix

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Comments

  • clikclik Dirty South, TXMember Posts: 68

    Actually they do mix.  It's the most competitive type of pvp you can have, it's a sure way to have fair fights or at least close to it.  In an instance you're more likely to have everyone ready to fight, all players equipped to the best of their ability for fighting (sometimes sans retards); no distractions from mobs, a variety of classes that can synergize and work together, and for the most part equal levels (at least at end game).  Ganking lowbies is for scrubs. 

  • Frostbite05Frostbite05 Jacksonville, FLMember Posts: 1,880
    Originally posted by Ginkeq

    Originally posted by Frostbite05

    Originally posted by tensspotting


     Of course - this should not be a debate even
     
    Instances = PVE 
     
    PVP open world
     
    Thats why the real PVP games like Darkfall and Mortal Online are open world, the devs know REAL PVPers will not take an instanced game. 
     
    Another reason why I consider AoC, War WoW as pure PVE games, I wont even go into the other reasons.
     
     

    Whether or not you accept it but the purest form of pvp in mmo's right now are arena's in WoW. They pit the skill of one team against the other with no external obstacles to hinder each other. Another major flaw in your theory is that  some people also see open world dungeons as true PVE and will argue that to death. Not saying your incorrect just saying your "opinion" is about as factual as anyone else on this topic.

     

    Lol, the purest form of PvP for carebears & lousy players, maybe.  Because people in WoW wouldn't have lasted a day on an EQ Zek server, where you can get killed in towns or in newbie leveling areas.

    Arenas.. skill based.  When's the last time you checked the rankings?  I guess if it was skill based it wouldn't be the same class combos at top, right?

    WoW arenas are the fakest form of PvP there is.  You go into a safe zone, fight over artificial rewards.  It is a meaningless and boring form of PvP for carebears. 

    WoW players suck at PvP and PvE, that is why it is all in protected instances.  They were so bad they couldn't handle the 40 man instances (even 40 man BWL was too hard for most WoW players.  Obviously their PvP system had to be designed for those players.

     

    having people gank you at half health doesn't qualify as pvp eitherbuddy. Say what you will the form you enjoy is called gankfest the form i prefer is considered a sport. Sorry but thats a fact. Your a carebear if you don't like ganking even though gankin takes no skill at all.

  • IlvaldyrIlvaldyr MiddlesbroughMember CommonPosts: 2,142
    Originally posted by Ginkeq 
    Meaningless and boring PvP servers, where no PvP actually occurs because of instanced PvP and no world content.  Yeah, those are great on WoW.  Look at all the great PvPers on the PvP servers.  
    What would be wrong with someone interfering with Heigan?  That is how Everquest was, it had real PvP in it unlike your carebear WoW game.  Maybe guard against people interfering?

    There is open-world PvP on PvP servers.

    There is also considerable open-world PvP on non-PvP servers.

    One of the level 80 zones (Wintergrasp) is geared 100% towards open world PvP. There are also PvP daily quests in several zones that encourage open-world PvP.

    Even in an open-world PvP game, one person should not have the freedom to screw over 20 others without risk, consequence and significant difficulty. Being able to one-shot an entire raid is not a reasonable expectation.

    It would seem that from your comments here, you're not concerned with PvP at all, but with the ability to gank and grief. As another poster already pointed out, few people are willing to pay a subscription to be treated as cannon fodder in fights that they have no chance of winning.

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  • dstar.dstar. Houston, TXMember Posts: 474

    I'm thinking someone couldn't get past 1500 rating in the WoW arenas and came to vent about it.  I mean if the people here saying WoW pvpers "suck".    If it is that easy and lame of a system you could have made some easy, good money playing a video game stomping all those sucky high tiered WoW pvpers in the arenas on a pro level.

    Instances provide a way to compete against another team on a some what of an equal ground.  You know like a sport.  In the end there is no excuse for your lose except for the way you and your team played.

    I'm all for world PvP but I've yet to see it be done well since EVE and DAOC.  Believe it or not most of those high tiered WoW arena players were the same guys and teams trashing you and your little group in roaming pvp games as well.

  • GinkeqGinkeq Baltimore, MDMember Posts: 615
    Originally posted by Ilvaldyr

    Originally posted by Ginkeq 
    Meaningless and boring PvP servers, where no PvP actually occurs because of instanced PvP and no world content.  Yeah, those are great on WoW.  Look at all the great PvPers on the PvP servers.  
    What would be wrong with someone interfering with Heigan?  That is how Everquest was, it had real PvP in it unlike your carebear WoW game.  Maybe guard against people interfering?

    There is open-world PvP on PvP servers.

    There is also considerable open-world PvP on non-PvP servers.

    One of the level 80 zones (Wintergrasp) is geared 100% towards open world PvP. There are also PvP daily quests in several zones that encourage open-world PvP.

    Even in an open-world PvP game, one person should not have the freedom to screw over 20 others without risk, consequence and significant difficulty. Being able to one-shot an entire raid is not a reasonable expectation.

    It would seem that from your comments here, you're not concerned with PvP at all, but with the ability to gank and grief. As another poster already pointed out, few people are willing to pay a subscription to be treated as cannon fodder in fights that they have no chance of winning.

     

    Did you even read my post?  There isn't open world PvP in WoW.  It's meaningless because of instances.

    No PvP occurs on PvP servers, I've played them before.  

    I don't care about ganking & griefing, they should be available options in any real PvP game.  I'm concerned more with guild  or team vs team PvP, which doesn't occur in your carebear WoW game.  

     

  • GinkeqGinkeq Baltimore, MDMember Posts: 615
    Originally posted by dstar.


    I'm thinking someone couldn't get past 1500 rating in the WoW arenas and came to vent about it.  I mean if the people here saying WoW pvpers "suck".    If it is that easy and lame of a system you could have made some easy, good money playing a video game stomping all those sucky high tiered WoW pvpers in the arenas on a pro level.
    Instances provide a way to compete against another team on a some what of an equal ground.  You know like a sport.  In the end there is no excuse for your lose except for the way you and your team played.
    I'm all for world PvP but I've yet to see it be done well since EVE and DAOC.  Believe it or not most of those high tiered WoW arena players were the same guys and teams trashing you and your little group in roaming pvp games as well.

     

    I was on top of the meaningless PvP system when I did play WoW, but I don't think other classes really had a chance vs Paladin + DK combo.  Doesn't change the fact that the Arena system was extremely boring.

    WoW pvpers do suck.  It's class advantage, and it's fake.  Real PvP never occurs in WoW.  Remember WoW world PvP before BGs?  Newbies killing each other all day in Hillsbrad, and there was never a winner because of respawn and lack of exp loss.

    Sure WoW is easy at this point, but I'm not gonna play it because it's easy.  It's boring when a game is as easy as WoW is.

     

    LOL High Tiered WOW players are good PvPers?  They picked the right class combination, that's about it.  Who really cares about BGs or Arenas though, since they are fake PvP systems for carebears who couldn't handle real PvP systems like the one in EQ.  Carebears like that wouldn't survive in EQ

  • dstar.dstar. Houston, TXMember Posts: 474

    I'm sure you were at the top.  Judging by your excuses you seem like a very high tiered player.  Your argument is so compelling and filled with great information I think you've changed a lot of peoples minds.

  • IlvaldyrIlvaldyr MiddlesbroughMember CommonPosts: 2,142
    Originally posted by Ginkeq

    Originally posted by Ilvaldyr

    Originally posted by Ginkeq 
    Meaningless and boring PvP servers, where no PvP actually occurs because of instanced PvP and no world content.  Yeah, those are great on WoW.  Look at all the great PvPers on the PvP servers.  
    What would be wrong with someone interfering with Heigan?  That is how Everquest was, it had real PvP in it unlike your carebear WoW game.  Maybe guard against people interfering?

    There is open-world PvP on PvP servers.

    There is also considerable open-world PvP on non-PvP servers.

    One of the level 80 zones (Wintergrasp) is geared 100% towards open world PvP. There are also PvP daily quests in several zones that encourage open-world PvP.

    Even in an open-world PvP game, one person should not have the freedom to screw over 20 others without risk, consequence and significant difficulty. Being able to one-shot an entire raid is not a reasonable expectation.

    It would seem that from your comments here, you're not concerned with PvP at all, but with the ability to gank and grief. As another poster already pointed out, few people are willing to pay a subscription to be treated as cannon fodder in fights that they have no chance of winning.

    Did you even read my post?  There isn't open world PvP in WoW.  It's meaningless because of instances.

    No PvP occurs on PvP servers, I've played them before.  

    I don't care about ganking & griefing, they should be available options in any real PvP game.  I'm concerned more with guild  or team vs team PvP, which doesn't occur in your carebear WoW game.  

    I read it, I just disagree with you.

    There is open world PvP in WoW. People can, and do, PvP outside of instances. I know this, because I do it myself. I was doing it earlier. It's fun. It happens. Stating otherwise is well, just wrong.

    I also disagree with ganking and griefing mechanics being in a PvP game. I consider it lame, cowardly and pointless to engage in fights with an enemy that can't defend themselves.

    I also disagree with your statement that team-vs-team PvP doesn't occur in WoW. It occurs inside the PvP instance such as arenas and battlegrounds. The only difference is that in these environments, the odds are somewhat fairer.

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  • GinkeqGinkeq Baltimore, MDMember Posts: 615
    Originally posted by Ilvaldyr

    Originally posted by Ginkeq

    Originally posted by Ilvaldyr

    Originally posted by Ginkeq 
    Meaningless and boring PvP servers, where no PvP actually occurs because of instanced PvP and no world content.  Yeah, those are great on WoW.  Look at all the great PvPers on the PvP servers.  
    What would be wrong with someone interfering with Heigan?  That is how Everquest was, it had real PvP in it unlike your carebear WoW game.  Maybe guard against people interfering?

    There is open-world PvP on PvP servers.

    There is also considerable open-world PvP on non-PvP servers.

    One of the level 80 zones (Wintergrasp) is geared 100% towards open world PvP. There are also PvP daily quests in several zones that encourage open-world PvP.

    Even in an open-world PvP game, one person should not have the freedom to screw over 20 others without risk, consequence and significant difficulty. Being able to one-shot an entire raid is not a reasonable expectation.

    It would seem that from your comments here, you're not concerned with PvP at all, but with the ability to gank and grief. As another poster already pointed out, few people are willing to pay a subscription to be treated as cannon fodder in fights that they have no chance of winning.

    Did you even read my post?  There isn't open world PvP in WoW.  It's meaningless because of instances.

    No PvP occurs on PvP servers, I've played them before.  

    I don't care about ganking & griefing, they should be available options in any real PvP game.  I'm concerned more with guild  or team vs team PvP, which doesn't occur in your carebear WoW game.  

    I read it, I just disagree with you.

    There is open world PvP in WoW. People can, and do, PvP outside of instances. I know this, because I do it myself. I was doing it earlier. It's fun. It happens. Stating otherwise is well, just wrong.

    I also disagree with ganking and griefing mechanics being in a PvP game. I consider it lame, cowardly and pointless to engage in fights with an enemy that can't defend themselves.

    I also disagree with your statement that team-vs-team PvP doesn't occur in WoW. It occurs inside the PvP instance such as arenas and battlegrounds. The only difference is that in these environments, the odds are somewhat fairer.

    It's pretty rare for open World PvP to occur in WoW.  The reason is that people realize it's meaningless.  If you are grinding in a certain area, what is the point of PvPing, when the person who attacks you isn't going to lose exp when they die, and they will just come back in ghost form and attack you?  

    In EQ, if you fought over a certain area, players would ask for LNS (loot n scoot), which means you let them loot but the area is yours afterwards.  In WoW, what happens is they keep coming back.  People don't want to PvP because the person they kill can just come back and attack them again (and are protected by carebear ghost form)

    I don't gank or grief people, but I don't think it should be disallowed by MMORPGs.  Can you gank or grief someone IRL?  Why should MMORPGs be a protected bubble where you can't have any fun?  If I wanted meaningless PvP i would go play an RTS game, but no, now games like WoW and newer MMORPGs instance their PvP and make it just as meaningless.

    At least if you were leveling up in a game with ganking/griefing, you would need more skill to level up.  You wouldn't have every newbie at level 75 like you do in WoW.

     

    PvP instances don't count as Team vs Team.  Take battlegrounds for example, you fight people from DIFFERENT servers INSIDE INSTANCES.  How is that team vs team?  You're fighting random people, they have no relation at all to the world on your server.  Arenas are the same thing too.  

    In real MMORPGs like EQ, you fight people who are actually on the same server, not random people.  And you fight over things that are related to your server, not random point systems in protected carebear zones.

    The only difference between EQ and WoW PvP is that WoW PvP is designed for carebears, whereas EQ PvP was real and you fought over things that affected the outcome of your server.

    Fake WoW carebear game.

     

    And to the person claiming I couldn't get above 1500 rating, lol.  WoW players are skill-less, don't think I would have any trouble beating the type of person who plays WoW.  My guild was in Naxx40 when you were wiping in Molten Core and ZG.

     

  • MalcanisMalcanis LondonMember UncommonPosts: 3,295

    [BUNCH OF STUFF I WAS GOING TO TYPE, ALL ESSAY STYLE]

    tl;dr: ahahaha instances!

    Give me liberty or give me lasers

  • IlvaldyrIlvaldyr MiddlesbroughMember CommonPosts: 2,142
    Originally posted by Ginkeq
    It's pretty rare for open World PvP to occur in WoW.  The reason is that people realize it's meaningless.  If you are grinding in a certain area, what is the point of PvPing, when the person who attacks you isn't going to lose exp when they die, and they will just come back in ghost form and attack you?  
    In EQ, if you fought over a certain area, players would ask for LNS (loot n scoot), which means you let them loot but the area is yours afterwards.  In WoW, what happens is they keep coming back.  People don't want to PvP because the person they kill can just come back and attack them again (and are protected by carebear ghost form)
    I don't gank or grief people, but I don't think it should be disallowed by MMORPGs.  Can you gank or grief someone IRL?  Why should MMORPGs be a protected bubble where you can't have any fun?  If I wanted meaningless PvP i would go play an RTS game, but no, now games like WoW and newer MMORPGs instance their PvP and make it just as meaningless.
    PvP instances don't count as Team vs Team.  Take battlegrounds for example, you fight people from DIFFERENT servers INSIDE INSTANCES.  How is that team vs team?  You're fighting random people, they have no relation at all to the world on your server.  Arenas are the same thing too. 

    You claim that you don't gank or grief people, but are stating here that you only consider PvP to be meaningful if you can cause lasting damage to another player. I equate that to griefing. You're openly stating that you don't want an enemy that you kill to come back and try and kill you; that you don't want PvP.

    I can't agree with your definition of meaningful. I only consider PvP to be meaningful if the outcome is not predetermined by differences in level and numbers as is so often true in FFA PvP games.

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  • GinkeqGinkeq Baltimore, MDMember Posts: 615
    Originally posted by Ilvaldyr

    Originally posted by Ginkeq
    It's pretty rare for open World PvP to occur in WoW.  The reason is that people realize it's meaningless.  If you are grinding in a certain area, what is the point of PvPing, when the person who attacks you isn't going to lose exp when they die, and they will just come back in ghost form and attack you?  
    In EQ, if you fought over a certain area, players would ask for LNS (loot n scoot), which means you let them loot but the area is yours afterwards.  In WoW, what happens is they keep coming back.  People don't want to PvP because the person they kill can just come back and attack them again (and are protected by carebear ghost form)
    I don't gank or grief people, but I don't think it should be disallowed by MMORPGs.  Can you gank or grief someone IRL?  Why should MMORPGs be a protected bubble where you can't have any fun?  If I wanted meaningless PvP i would go play an RTS game, but no, now games like WoW and newer MMORPGs instance their PvP and make it just as meaningless.
    PvP instances don't count as Team vs Team.  Take battlegrounds for example, you fight people from DIFFERENT servers INSIDE INSTANCES.  How is that team vs team?  You're fighting random people, they have no relation at all to the world on your server.  Arenas are the same thing too. 

    You claim that you don't gank or grief people, but are stating here that you only consider PvP to be meaningful if you can cause lasting damage to another player. I equate that to griefing. You're openly stating that you don't want an enemy that you kill to come back and try and kill you; that you don't want PvP.

    I can't agree with your definition of meaningful. I only consider PvP to be meaningful if the outcome is not predetermined by differences in level and numbers as is so often true in FFA PvP games.

     

    Wrong.  The thing with WoW PvP servers is they never lose exp.  So PvP is meaningless because you can kill the same newbie 100 times and they will come back and annoy you.  If you kill someone in PvP, they can recognize when they are outmatched and leave.  But when they don't lose anything, they don't have any incentive to leave.  So you have some idiot newbie who keeps attacking you and annoying you, ghost form protects them from being attacked when they come back, and they jump on you when you are fighting.  Because they don't lose  exp, it doesn't matter to them.



    You want little meaningless instances to be the place where PvP should take place.  Zones not even connected with any players/guilds on your server that don't affect anything.  Why should PvP occur there as opposed to the actual server / world you are playing on?  It's stupid

    Who cares about number advantage?  I'd rather fight against people on my own server and have things unbalanced than go into those pathetic carebear instances for PvP (where you fight random newbies from every server.)

    Meaningful PvP is PvP connected to the server / world you play on.  Instanced PvP is meaningless.  

     

  • CaleveiraCaleveira Mexico CityMember Posts: 556

    Has this argument become about arena? I dont like the system myself but its ok for other people to do...

    I think the point the OP is missing is that some of the posters are right about open world devolving into gankfests if left unchecked. One problem people in PvP servers face in most games is dwindling population. Many people who like to call themselves PvPers start quitting the second they realize theyre loosing the initial leveling race. Griefers become frustrated and instead of merely ganking lowbies start harrasing players. The antiPKer role becomes tiresome as you cant do anything else anymore, a part of the player base expects you to act as police, and ive even seen guilds go to absurd lenghts to formalize rules of engagement and such. In the end you know half the people youre "helping" are KSers or griefers themselves who are only abusing your trying to help the comunity. A small exodus of people more into crafting or merchanting soon begins towards the carebear servers. Oh, and youll loose a good third of the playerbase whenever a new PvP server opens as everyone rushes at a shot at a higher place in the food chain there.

    I no longer believe in the distinction in between PvP and PvE servers, which is one of the things i like about Aion. It does nothing but divide the comunity. PvP should be encouraged, not forced, by game mechanics. Open world PvP can only work within a system of checks and balances, ive previously posted how i think instancing could help in this. That is also why in other threads ive opposed stealth, getting ninja'd by griefers isnt really fun at all. Im a PvPer which means i can take it. Then again, it isnt fun you cant run an instance half the times you want to because youre too busy putting a party together to go hunt down yet another group of brats...

    Just to make things clear...
    I speak for myself and no one else, unless i state otherwise mine is just an opinion. A fact is something that can be independently verified, you may challenge such but with proof. You have every right to disagree with me through sound argument, i believe in constructive debate, but baseless aggression will warrant an unkind response.

  • IlvaldyrIlvaldyr MiddlesbroughMember CommonPosts: 2,142
    Originally posted by Ginkeq


    Wrong.  The thing with WoW PvP servers is they never lose exp.  So PvP is meaningless because you can kill the same newbie 100 times and they will come back and annoy you.  If you kill someone in PvP, they can recognize when they are outmatched and leave.  But when they don't lose anything, they don't have any incentive to leave.  So you have some idiot newbie who keeps attacking you and annoying you, ghost form protects them from being attacked when they come back, and they jump on you when you are fighting.  Because they don't lose  exp, it doesn't matter to them.



    You want little meaningless instances to be the place where PvP should take place.  Zones not even connected with any players/guilds on your server that don't affect anything.  Why should PvP occur there as opposed to the actual server / world you are playing on?  It's stupid
    Who cares about number advantage?  I'd rather fight against people on my own server and have things unbalanced than go into those pathetic carebear instances for PvP (where you fight random newbies from every server.)
    Meaningful PvP is PvP connected to the server / world you play on.  Instanced PvP is meaningless. 

    Earlier you claimed that no-one in WoW took part in open-world PvP. Now you're claiming that WoW PvP is meaningless because people can keep attacking one another repeatedly rather than slinking away once beaten. Why, if you are looking for PvP, would you be trying to make other PvPers leave?

    Cross-server PvP is a separate issue to Instanced PvP. I'd prefer to have recognisable names from the opposing faction too, but I don't consider it a requirement to enjoyable PvP.

    I care about number advantages when they mean that a battle is unwinnable.

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  • ThenariusThenarius BucharestMember Posts: 1,106
    Originally posted by Ginkeq

    Originally posted by Ilvaldyr

    Originally posted by Ginkeq 
    Meaningless and boring PvP servers, where no PvP actually occurs because of instanced PvP and no world content.  Yeah, those are great on WoW.  Look at all the great PvPers on the PvP servers.  
    What would be wrong with someone interfering with Heigan?  That is how Everquest was, it had real PvP in it unlike your carebear WoW game.  Maybe guard against people interfering?

    There is open-world PvP on PvP servers.

    There is also considerable open-world PvP on non-PvP servers.

    One of the level 80 zones (Wintergrasp) is geared 100% towards open world PvP. There are also PvP daily quests in several zones that encourage open-world PvP.

    Even in an open-world PvP game, one person should not have the freedom to screw over 20 others without risk, consequence and significant difficulty. Being able to one-shot an entire raid is not a reasonable expectation.

    It would seem that from your comments here, you're not concerned with PvP at all, but with the ability to gank and grief. As another poster already pointed out, few people are willing to pay a subscription to be treated as cannon fodder in fights that they have no chance of winning.

     

    Did you even read my post?  There isn't open world PvP in WoW.  It's meaningless because of instances.

    No PvP occurs on PvP servers, I've played them before.  

    I don't care about ganking & griefing, they should be available options in any real PvP game.  I'm concerned more with guild  or team vs team PvP, which doesn't occur in your carebear WoW game.  

     

    You can easily organise a guild vs guild or team vs team event in WoW since there are so many zones and nobody will disturb you in some of them, far easier than most of today's MMORPGs. There's also arena.

  • AxehiltAxehilt Member RarePosts: 10,504
    Originally posted by Ginkeq

    Originally posted by Axehilt


    Nah, Ilvaldyr.  Ginkeq is correct: anything that lets players accumulate rewards in a safe place works against the resource competition type of gameplay he's talking about.
    But the question is whether resource competition or instanced gameplay is more important.  For me, instanced PVE and instanced PVP are both insanely better than the junk you find out in the game world (which has to be cheap and shallow to even function in an MMO world.)
    And honestly, resource competition can still happen even with instances.
    In world PVP two blacksmiths found an ore node.  They fought, and the victor is now 3 ore closer to his crafted upgrade.
    In WOW BGs two players fought, and the victor is now 3 Marks of Honor closer to his PVP upgrade.
    And that's only a shallow implementation of what could potentially be quite a bit deeper (such as how WAR's scenarios feed into the overall war.)

     

    Resource competition can't happen with instances...  So what if people fight over an ore node?  How often does that even happen?  And when you kill the opponent, they don't care much because they don't lose anything.  Have fun fighting the same idiot at every ore node, because there is no death penalty in WoW.

    Want to fight over NPCs or spawn areas in WoW?  Good luck.  Kill some idiot, and they will just come back and watch you in ghost form, then spawn when you are half HP.  Real good PvP there.  In good games like EQ, you come back without any gear, so you can't have idiot newbies pulling cheap shit like that.  Plus there was exp loss, so if a player sucks they will leave you alone actually.

    WoW BGs are meaningless.  That kind of cheap PvP doesn't even compare to what was in Everquest.  Who cares about Marks of Honor? They are trivial to get.  And lol, as if BGs are fun at all.  You just get your own guild to do BGs and you get 3 marks every time.  It's just farming newbies over and over for artificial rewards.  It's not real PvP.

    Instances are garbage



     

    You've basically flagposted yourself throughout this thread as someone not interested in reasonable conversation.  You're therefore not worth talking to.

    "What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver

  • PalebanePalebane Tucson, AZMember UncommonPosts: 3,225

    I sympathize with the OP. I miss the conflict that occurs in open dungeons on PvP servers. Instancing serves to divide the communities in these games, and there is already a very heavy division in most modern MMORPGs for a variety of other reasons; all of which which are directly related to causing weak communities in my opinion.

    Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.

  • skarwolfskarwolf st. catharines, ONMember CommonPosts: 245
    Originally posted by Ginkeq


    Instances were made to solve the problem of players competing over certain PvE areas.  But is this really a good thing?
    Coming from an EQ background, on a PvP server, I hate the idea of instances.  Part of the reason I like MMORPGs is disputes and arguments.  Is it really good to eliminate disputes within MMORPGs?  It seems to cheapen an MMORPG and make it fake.
    If you model an MMORPG after the real world, there wouldn't be any instances.  If two people (IRL) want the same resource in a certain location, they would have to resolve that dispute in some way.  By introducing instances, these companies have eliminated disputes from MMORPGs.  
    TBH, I really miss fighting over camps, or having people pull trains over groups to try & take over a camp.  By putting instances in, leveling is kind of boring anymore.  There is no disputes with other players, so MMORPGs are not fun anymore.  
    The problem is really apparent if you come from a PvP server of a non-instanced MMORPG.  All of the PvP (Zek) servers in Everquest were only healthy because the PvE content caused disputes between the guilds that existed.  These servers were really fun, and players there cared about PvPing.
    If you look at WoW's PvP servers, no one cares about the PvP because there is nothing to fight each other over.  You can't dispute instances, so why even have PvP servers?  It's a joke to have a PvP server and instanced content, because players won't fight each other.  The only way they will fight each other is if you put artificial rewards on PvP (like honor system), but by making instances more valuable in terms of gaining Honor, no one does World PvP anymore.  Plus putting artificial rewards on PvP makes the game have a meaningless PvP system.
    Anyway, I think instances have been a massive failure for the PvP community.  Players who participate in instanced PvP are doing MMORPGs a disservice because these companies are going to continue with their failure PvP systems that are meaningless and not fun.  



    If you have a PvP server, nothing on that server should be put into an instance, because you can't have meaningful PvP with instances in the game.
     

     

    First and foremost, pvp is not griefing.   Thats an idea carried over by wankers who like yourself populated the EQ servers.

    This seems to be how you define it.  You want to be able to grief people and don't like that instanced pvp puts it on an even playing field preventing you from being able to pick on weaker opponents.

    EQ servers had plenty of issues.  Rallos Zek everyone ran around naked for fear of being looted.  The other one which had a pvp range of 5 levels people carried around OOR healers who couldn't be killed.  Sullon Zek most of the population played Evil and the top guild Ruin (alts of legacy of steel) were doing end game content while most people hadn't even reached 50th.  I tried sullon zek it was crap.  You had a few neutral druids harrassing lowbies who ran away once someone their level showed up or they'd camp zonelines.

    Just because its not instanced doesn't mean everyone works together.  

    You still have elitist douchebags who are only in it for themselves.  DAOC had plenty of these and it wasn't instanced.  People who would jump realms once theirs lost relics and join whatever side was currently winning.  Douchebags who only ran in their 8 man groups in emain and didn't give a crap about anyone or anything else like realm defense.

    I played Sullon Zek, I made a troll shadowknight.  I knew how to progress quickly and obtain money easily having already levelled a TSK to max on regular servers.  Ended up getting myself decent gear and weapon (got lucky one day some higher lvl dude game me a dark reaver) which totally rocked at low levels...  and then everyone started calling me a twink and don't group with me /shrug.  In return these douches never got any help when they were getting corpse camped.  I got to around 40th level and would routinely patrol low level areas going after the random halfing  druid griefer who would take off the minute someone their level showed up.  It was stupid and boring.

    On the other hand you can talk to an npc, enter a number of battleground queues each with different objectives then join when your ready.  Engage in pvp and fight people who are there to pvp, not grief low levels and run away.   Much better in my opinion.

     

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