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Major point solo advocates seem incapable of understanding in the Solo Vs Group debate

IhmoteppIhmotepp Koolawachie, SCPosts: 14,495Member

The problem with solo friendly games, in my opinion, is NOT finding groups, or getting in groups, or being invited to groups, or starting a group.

I have NEVER had a problem playing in groups in solo friendly games. I had no problem getting in group after group, or starting groups, in games like WoW, and City of Heroes, which I consider solo friendly games.

 

I would like a game that has good group content, like DAoC before all the expansions, and the original EQ.

If you can understand I am not complaining about finding groups, I am not trying to force anyone to group with me because I can't find groups, we can continue the debate.

But it's impossible to debate with someone that avoids the real issue.

It's like I'm saying my steak is over cooked, and the chef says, well it's not to spicy at all! Yes, I know, the spice is fine, I said it's over cooked. And then the chef says, why don't you like spicy steak? It's really good?

I keep saying, I want different sort of game play. And the solo advocate says, why are you having trouble finding groups? Is that your fault that you can't find a group.

I HAVE NO TROUBLE FINDING GROUPS IN SOLO GAMES!

And the solo advocate says, Why do you need to force me to group with you. Is it because can't find anyone to group with you?

I HAVE NO TROUBLE FINDING GROUPS IN SOLO GAMES!

My point about group vs solo is NOT about finding groups in solo friendly games. I can find groups in solo friendly games, that has never been a problem, that is not why I want a good grouping game. I'm not saying I can't find groups, so I need people to be forced to group so I can get in a group.

I can find groups in WoW and CoH, but after I do the game play is NOT as good as a group based game, in my opinion.

But I dont' think the solo advocate will get it. They will still counter all my points, with well you CAN find a group in these solo games you know! These games dont' stop you from grouping if you try!

YES I KNOW! I CAN ALWAYS FIND GROOUPS IN SOLO GAMES< That's NOT THE PROBLEM!

 

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Comments

  • Toquio3Toquio3 LisbonPosts: 1,074Member

    Yes we get it, you want a game with good group mechanics.  And in most discussions, thats not what group advocates are saying. they are clearly against soloing, so you cant blame the solo advocates to reply the way they do.

     

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    If you stand VERY still, and close your eyes, after a minute you can actually FEEL the universe revolving around PvP.

  • IlvaldyrIlvaldyr MiddlesbroughPosts: 2,142Member

    No, the problem is that when you're offered a game where you can level 100% of the time via group content, you refuse it on the grounds that other players can solo 100% of the time too.

    Your problem is that you want 100% developer commitment for a playstyle that less than 5% of the playerbase would find desirable. Your problem is that you're not just concerned about your own fun; you are also committed to ruining other peoples.

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    Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
  • IhmoteppIhmotepp Koolawachie, SCPosts: 14,495Member
    Originally posted by Ilvaldyr


    No, the problem is that when you're offered a game where you can level 100% of the time via group content, you refuse it on the grounds that other players can solo 100% of the time too.
    Your problem is that you want 100% developer commitment for a playstyle that less than 5% of the playerbase would find desirable. Your problem is that you're not just concerned about your own fun; you are also committed to ruining other peoples.

     

    You are still saying I should be able to find a group in a solo friendly game.

    I am not asking for a game where I can level 100% of the time in groups. I can do that in WoW just fine.

    I am asking for a game with good group content.

    I have no trouble finding groups in solo friendly games. Please re-read the original post.

    I am concerned about MY fun, not yours. Please read the original post again.

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  • IlvaldyrIlvaldyr MiddlesbroughPosts: 2,142Member
    Originally posted by Ihmotepp



    You are still saying I should be able to find a group in a solo friendly game.
    I am not asking for a game where I can level 100% of the time in groups. I can do that in WoW just fine.
    I am asking for a game with good group content.
    I have no trouble finding groups in solo friendly games. Please re-read the original post.
    I am concerned about MY fun, not yours. Please read the original post again.

    Ok, seriously .. now you're just being deliberately stupid.

    As I explained to you before, in AoC you can enter a zone as a solo zone, or you can enter it as a group zone. In a group zone, all mobs are scaled to group difficulty. All quests require groups. 100%. It is the "good group content" that you are asking for.

    I asked you in a thread yesterday if you would be happy to play AoC, a game with "good group content" and your response was that you would not be happy to play AoC because it also catered to the solo players.

    So I stand by my previous statement.

    You are not concerned about your own fun; you are concerned about being able to have more fun than soloers.

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    Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
  • IhmoteppIhmotepp Koolawachie, SCPosts: 14,495Member
    Originally posted by Ilvaldyr

    Originally posted by Ihmotepp



    You are still saying I should be able to find a group in a solo friendly game.
    I am not asking for a game where I can level 100% of the time in groups. I can do that in WoW just fine.
    I am asking for a game with good group content.
    I have no trouble finding groups in solo friendly games. Please re-read the original post.
    I am concerned about MY fun, not yours. Please read the original post again.

    Ok, seriously .. now you're just being deliberately stupid.

    As I explained to you before, in AoC you can enter a zone as a solo zone, or you can enter it as a group zone. In a group zone, all mobs are scaled to group difficulty. All quests require groups. 100%. It is the "good group content" that you are asking for.

    I asked you in a thread yesterday if you would be happy to play AoC, a game with "good group content" and your response was that you would not be happy to play AoC because it also catered to the solo players.

    So I stand by my previous statement.

    You are not concerned about your own fun; you are concerned about being able to have more fun than soloers.

     

    Do the xp rewards in the group zone of AoC sufficiently compensate players for the non-combat time involved in grouping?

    If they do that as much as EQ or DAoC, then that might be fine.

    However, I do fall in the category of people that do not like heavily instanced games, so that part is a negative.

    One of the features about good grouping games, is the ability to join a group in the area you are grinding or questing.

    Finding a group in a non group area, then going to the group instance, all seems to artificial.

    The way it worked in DAoC was there was a nearby dungeon that had a lot of group content. You would hang out there picking off solo mobs, or doing some of the easier first levels of the dungeon.

    Then you'd join a group and start doing the harder more rewarding content. If the group broke up, you might get picked up by another group.

    So it seems very immersion breaking nad poor design to me to break up groups and solo players in different instances. But if you're ok with an heavily instanced game, and the game sufficienty rewards group play I suppose that would work.

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  • IlvaldyrIlvaldyr MiddlesbroughPosts: 2,142Member
    Originally posted by Ihmotepp



    Do the xp rewards in the group zone of AoC sufficiently compensate players for the non-combat time involved in grouping?

    The XP rewards of questing in the group zone are higher than soloing, yup. Drops are more frequent too.

    The vast majority of people still solo most of the time, of course.

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    Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
  • IhmoteppIhmotepp Koolawachie, SCPosts: 14,495Member
    Originally posted by Ilvaldyr

    Originally posted by Ihmotepp



    Do the xp rewards in the group zone of AoC sufficiently compensate players for the non-combat time involved in grouping?

    The XP rewards of questing in the group zone are higher than soloing, yup. Drops are more frequent too.

    The vast majority of people still solo most of the time, of course.

     

    If the vast majority of people are still soloing, I would say the compensation for grouping is not adequate in that game.

    In EQ and DAoC I would say the vast majority grouped, because the compensation was adequate in those designs.

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  • DibdabsDibdabs FelvershamPosts: 2,604Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Ihmotepp



    I HAVE NO TROUBLE FINDING GROUPS IN SOLO GAMES!
    That's NOT THE PROBLEM! 

    You're about the only one to focus on that aspect though. All credit to you, and I do indeed see your point.  I doubt anyone can actually make a game that can make it rewarding to group, given that it invariably means splitting loot, xp and rare drops.  The fact that in a group of three you might be killing mobs three times as quick means little if you have to roll to see who gets that epic item or gather that Resource node which, if you were on your own, would have been entirely yours.

    The other 99% - essentially the "we want forced grouping" whiners  - just can't seem to play a computer game without someone there to hold their hand, dry their tears and talk to them.  They whine, QQ and say soloers are just naughty, unsociable people and that they should be MADE to play the way THEY want them to play.

    Soloers never want the Groupies (let's label them that) to be forced to solo though.  We just wish the Groupies would shut the hell up.

     

  • ShanniaShannia Huntingdon, NYPosts: 2,096Member

    Ihmotepp,

    You and I have been on the forums a long, long time.  This is the first time I've seen you make a wall of text and not point out what the point of your thread is.  You repeated yourself a lot, but you never specificially addressed what your real problem is.  Once you do that, then and only then can we begin to address the real issue you have.

     

    Fear not fanbois, we are not trolls, let's take off your tin foil hat and learn what VAPORWARE is:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaporware

    "Vaporware is a term used to describe a software or hardware product that is announced by a developer well in advance of release, but which then fails to emerge after having well exceeded the period of development time that was initially claimed or would normally be expected for the development cycle of a similar product."

  • DibdabsDibdabs FelvershamPosts: 2,604Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Ihmotepp

    Originally posted by Ilvaldyr

    Originally posted by Ihmotepp



    Do the xp rewards in the group zone of AoC sufficiently compensate players for the non-combat time involved in grouping?

    The XP rewards of questing in the group zone are higher than soloing, yup. Drops are more frequent too.

    The vast majority of people still solo most of the time, of course.

     

    If the vast majority of people are still soloing, I would say the compensation for grouping is not adequate in that game.

    In EQ and DAoC I would say the vast majority grouped, because the compensation was adequate in those designs.

    In EQ the mobs, and most definitely the death penalties, were so tough that grouping happened naturally purely as a means of survival.  Nothing wrong with that whatsoever, and "Adversity always fosters Community", but it wasn't a system that "compensated" for grouping in the XP and loot/rewards sense.

  • IlvaldyrIlvaldyr MiddlesbroughPosts: 2,142Member
    Originally posted by Ihmotepp



    If the vast majority of people are still soloing, I would say the compensation for grouping is not adequate in that game.



    Which is why you are elitist.

    You're not content to respect that other people have their own preferences.

    All you see is "if we increase group (or decrease solo) rewards, then they'll eventually all have to group in order to progress at a reasonable rate!" .. i.e. "screw everyone else as long as I get what I want".

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    Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
  • VyavaVyava Lauderdale, MNPosts: 893Member
    Originally posted by Ihmotepp 
    If the vast majority of people are still soloing, I would say the compensation for grouping is not adequate in that game.
    In EQ and DAoC I would say the vast majority grouped, because the compensation was adequate in those designs.



     

    I think what happened since then was a fundamental change in the playerbase.

    During the UO, EQ and DAoC eras it was about playing the game. Now it is about winning the game.

    Not to say there wasn't those people in the older games, but that they were the minority and now they are the majority for many games. People who want to win do not want to be impeded by others and have no interest in grouping. Those who want to play the game do not want their game time ruined by others who just want to win ASAP (blow through content etc).

    MMOs have changed to follow the new playerbase. Heck, you can even see how WoW was changed to follow the new MMO playerbase more and more since release. I believe this is the fundamental reason most players from older games don't enjoy the newer releases nearly as much and just get burnt out.

  • IhmoteppIhmotepp Koolawachie, SCPosts: 14,495Member
    Originally posted by Ilvaldyr

    Originally posted by Ihmotepp



    If the vast majority of people are still soloing, I would say the compensation for grouping is not adequate in that game.



    Which is why you are elitist.

    You're not content to respect that other people have their own preferences.

    All you see is "if we increase group (or decrease solo) rewards, then they'll eventually all have to group in order to progress at a reasonable rate!" .. i.e. "screw everyone else as long as I get what I want".

     

    I don't get it. If that's true, how are you respecting my preference?

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  • IlvaldyrIlvaldyr MiddlesbroughPosts: 2,142Member
    Originally posted by Ihmotepp

    I don't get it. If that's true, how are you respecting my preference?

    Your preference is for grouping; I have never and would never oppose an MMO having the option to level at a reasonable rate exclusively through challenging and rewarding group content.

    In that, I am respecting your playstyle.

    You, on the other hand, are asking for the solo playstyle to be nerfed to the point where people who prefer to solo would be forced to group in order to level at a reasonable rate or solo at an unreasonable one.

    In that, you are not respecting my playstyle.

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    Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
  • ComnitusComnitus Williamsburg, VAPosts: 2,462Member
    Originally posted by Ilvaldyr

    Originally posted by Ihmotepp

    I don't get it. If that's true, how are you respecting my preference?

    Your preference is for grouping; I have never and would never oppose an MMO having the option to level at a reasonable rate exclusively through challenging and rewarding group content.

    In that, I am respecting your playstyle.

    You, on the other hand, are asking for the solo playstyle to be nerfed to the point where people who prefer to solo would be forced to group in order to level at a reasonable rate or solo at an unreasonable one.

    In that, you are not respecting my playstyle.

    Let me guess Ihmotepp's response:

    I HAVE NO TROUBLE FINDING GROUPS IN SOLO GAMES!

    Lol.

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  • madeuxmadeux SLC, UTPosts: 1,786Member
    Originally posted by Shannia


    Ihmotepp,
    You and I have been on the forums a long, long time.  This is the first time I've seen you make a wall of text and not point out what the point of your thread is.  You repeated yourself a lot, but you never specificially addressed what your real problem is.  Once you do that, then and only then can we begin to address the real issue you have.
     

     

    That's what happen when you keep posting the same thing over and over again, and even go so far as to start multiple threads just so you'll have a place to post your garbage.

  • econ24econ24 auburn, NYPosts: 45Member

    One of the agruments of anti-soloers was the complaint that in solo-friendly games you can't find groups. Thanks for invalidating that  :P

    Most MMOs that I've played have group only leveling content: PVP instances, dungeons, public quests, whatever. This group only content either scales in difficulty with group size or is balanced explicitly for groups.

    The fact that group content is too easy has nothing to do with a game's solo-friendly nature. Today's games are also crap-player-friendly, even solo content suffers because of this. I believe it is refered to as "accessibility", kind of like wheelchair ramps for MMOs, lol.

    You stated that it is possible to level to max in solo-friendly games doing nothing but group content.

    The end game in most MMOs I've played, regardless of how solo-friendly leveling is, is 99% group oriented.

    Considering all the facts, your complaints seem petty. You have your group required end games, you can level to max in groups if you want, and yet you complain about the remaining solo content? lol...

    What do you expect soloers to think? It seems you want the only content left to them to be made group only as well.

     

  • karat76karat76 Wellston, OHPosts: 1,000Member Uncommon

    Not sure what point he was trying to make. It isn't the solo players fault that he doesn't find grouping worthwhile.

  • IhmoteppIhmotepp Koolawachie, SCPosts: 14,495Member
    Originally posted by Ilvaldyr

    Originally posted by Ihmotepp

    I don't get it. If that's true, how are you respecting my preference?

    Your preference is for grouping; I have never and would never oppose an MMO having the option to level at a reasonable rate exclusively through challenging and rewarding group content.

    In that, I am respecting your playstyle.

    You, on the other hand, are asking for the solo playstyle to be nerfed to the point where people who prefer to solo would be forced to group in order to level at a reasonable rate or solo at an unreasonable one.

    In that, you are not respecting my playstyle.

     

    No, you are misstating my position.

    My preference is NOT for grouping, which I stated in the Origijnal Post.

    Try again.

    How are you respecting my play style?

    Do you really not get that my preference is NOT for grouping, or are you purposefully trying to misrepresent my position to make your point?

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  • IhmoteppIhmotepp Koolawachie, SCPosts: 14,495Member
    Originally posted by econ24


    One of the agruments of anti-soloers was the complaint that in solo-friendly games you can't find groups. Thanks for invalidating that  :P
    Most MMOs that I've played have group only leveling content: PVP instances, dungeons, public quests, whatever. This group only content either scales in difficulty with group size or is balanced explicitly for groups.
    The fact that group content is too easy has nothing to do with a game's solo-friendly nature. Today's games are also crap-player-friendly, even solo content suffers because of this. I believe it is refered to as "accessibility", kind of like wheelchair ramps for MMOs, lol.
    You stated that it is possible to level to max in solo-friendly games doing nothing but group content.
    The end game in most MMOs I've played, regardless of how solo-friendly leveling is, is 99% group oriented.
    Considering all the facts, your complaints seem petty. You have your group required end games, you can level to max in groups if you want, and yet you complain about the remaining solo content? lol...
    What do you expect soloers to think? It seems you want the only content left to them to be made group only as well.
     

     

    I have no interest in raiding.

    I dont' raid, but will happily play a game till it gets to the raiding part of the content.

    I am discussing "grouping" not raiding. They are not the same.

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  • ComnitusComnitus Williamsburg, VAPosts: 2,462Member
    Originally posted by econ24


    One of the agruments of anti-soloers was the complaint that in solo-friendly games you can't find groups. Thanks for invalidating that  :P
    Most MMOs that I've played have group only leveling content: PVP instances, dungeons, public quests, whatever. This group only content either scales in difficulty with group size or is balanced explicitly for groups.
    The fact that group content is too easy has nothing to do with a game's solo-friendly nature. Today's games are also crap-player-friendly, even solo content suffers because of this. I believe it is refered to as "accessibility", kind of like wheelchair ramps for MMOs, lol.
    You stated that it is possible to level to max in solo-friendly games doing nothing but group content.
    The end game in most MMOs I've played, regardless of how solo-friendly leveling is, is 99% group oriented.
    Considering all the facts, your complaints seem petty. You have your group required end games, you can level to max in groups if you want, and yet you complain about the remaining solo content? lol...
    What do you expect soloers to think? It seems you want the only content left to them to be made group only as well.
     

    He doesn't complain that group content is there. He complains that it's not "rewarding enough". Why? Well, the majority of people solo, and he automatically assumes this is because the group content is not worthwhile. Oh, it has to be non-instanced too, apparently, or he isn't happy.

    It's not that you can group in a solo-friendly game. He's asking why you'd want to when soloing seems so much easier?

    What he fails to understand is that people choose what they want to do based on how they feel, not game mechanics (in most cases). For instance, if I wanted to be top DPS in an end-game raid, I'd have to adjust my talent build on the game mechanics instead of what I want... but that's an exception. When I'm leveling, I'll group if I feel like it, but most of the time I'll solo. Why? Why not? I can still talk to my friends without grouping with them. I can still interact with people I don't know without grouping with them. If there's a challenge I can't take on myself, I have no problems with grouping. Grouping to me is an accessory, not a tool, and I think it should be that way. It shouldn't be required, and it should be somewhat more rewarding than soloing, since there are factors to grouping that require it be more worthwhile (such as the logistics of getting people together, making sure everything runs smoothly, etc.) That's where things like end-game raiding come in.

    This thread is funny.

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  • spades07spades07 YesPosts: 847Member

    what the solo advocates don't understand is that the original Dungeons N Dragons tabletop game wasn't played solo. That's not to say mmos should have no solo because that's bull, but I get annoyed when people seem to be cynical why people want emphasis on grouping in mmos. It is simply that same desire as playing DnD around a table with a group of friends.

  • ComnitusComnitus Williamsburg, VAPosts: 2,462Member
    Originally posted by Ihmotepp

    Originally posted by Ilvaldyr

    Originally posted by Ihmotepp

    I don't get it. If that's true, how are you respecting my preference?

    Your preference is for grouping; I have never and would never oppose an MMO having the option to level at a reasonable rate exclusively through challenging and rewarding group content.

    In that, I am respecting your playstyle.

    You, on the other hand, are asking for the solo playstyle to be nerfed to the point where people who prefer to solo would be forced to group in order to level at a reasonable rate or solo at an unreasonable one.

    In that, you are not respecting my playstyle.

     

    No, you are misstating my position.

    My preference is NOT for grouping, which I stated in the Origijnal Post.

    Try again.

    How are you respecting my play style?

    Do you really not get that my preference is NOT for grouping, or are you purposefully trying to misrepresent my position to make your point?

    How in the world is your preference NOT for grouping?

    "I want a game with good group content..."

    That, logically, means you like to group. Are you seriously trying to suggest that you're really okay with soloing, after all the other posts you've made (in other threads, too) that clearly state otherwise? Are you just spouting hot air at this point because you don't want to lose an argument?

    Ok guys. Ihmotepp just wants "good" group content in a game. He has very, very strict definitions of what "good" group content is and he won't accept anything sub-par. But he's really okay with soloing.

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  • IlvaldyrIlvaldyr MiddlesbroughPosts: 2,142Member
    Originally posted by Ihmotepp 
    No, you are misstating my position.
    My preference is NOT for grouping, which I stated in the Origijnal Post.
    Try again.
    How are you respecting my play style?
    Do you really not get that my preference is NOT for grouping, or are you purposefully trying to misrepresent my position to make your point?

    Erm:

    "I would like a game that has good group content"

    "My preference is NOT for grouping"

    If this is something to do with schizophrenia, could you please ask Ihmotepp to return to the frontal cortex?

     

     

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    Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
  • IhmoteppIhmotepp Koolawachie, SCPosts: 14,495Member
    Originally posted by Comnitus

    Originally posted by Ihmotepp

    Originally posted by Ilvaldyr

    Originally posted by Ihmotepp

    I don't get it. If that's true, how are you respecting my preference?

    Your preference is for grouping; I have never and would never oppose an MMO having the option to level at a reasonable rate exclusively through challenging and rewarding group content.

    In that, I am respecting your playstyle.

    You, on the other hand, are asking for the solo playstyle to be nerfed to the point where people who prefer to solo would be forced to group in order to level at a reasonable rate or solo at an unreasonable one.

    In that, you are not respecting my playstyle.

     

    No, you are misstating my position.

    My preference is NOT for grouping, which I stated in the Origijnal Post.

    Try again.

    How are you respecting my play style?

    Do you really not get that my preference is NOT for grouping, or are you purposefully trying to misrepresent my position to make your point?

    How in the world is your preference NOT for grouping?

    "I want a game with good group content..."

    That, logically, means you like to group. Are you seriously trying to suggest that you're really okay with soloing, after all the other posts you've made (in other threads, too) that clearly state otherwise? Are you just spouting hot air at this point because you don't want to lose an argument?

    Ok guys. Ihmotepp just wants "good" group content in a game. He has very, very strict definitions of what "good" group content is and he won't accept anything sub-par. But he's really okay with soloing.

     

    Good grouping content =/= to ability to group.

    Illvaldyr is constantly trying to turn that into my argument, which it is not.

    He keeps say, you can group, so you have what you want!

    I keep saying, just like in the original post, I can group in EVERY MMORPG and have no trouble finding groups.

     

    I am not asking for the ability to group.

    Yet he keeps coming  back and saying, look you CAN group in this game, so you've got what you want.

    I keep saying, no, I'm not asking for the ability to group, I'm asking for good group content.

    IMO, EQ nad DAoC had good group content. CoH and WoW pre-raid does not.

    I dont' think that's such a narrow definition of what good group content is.

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