Groupers don't solo and don't want others to solo because then they can't group.
I don't think that's really it. From what I get out of the OP and the ensuing conversation, it's that if the world is "soloable" then the incentive to group is nothing more than superficial. The OP seems to be more interested in a game where due to the harshness of the environment, strength in numbers is the way to go. I think it's the challenge or "danger" that the dedicated groupers are after, and maybe some of the "brothers in arms" feeling the may experience. It's not good or bad, just a different preference than the players who prefer a solo experience.
I mostly solo because, in my experience, most of the people in groups are poor players.
Not everyone is made so that they can be dumped into a world and then told "ok go to it". Which is why I really think there needs to be quests (and good quests, not just "go kill 10 bears) along with some sort of exploratory model. but when it comes to the group vs solo thing, the group thing, regardless of quests or 'no quests" tends to devolve into people shooting the shit. I remember once being in a group and some people were talking about some football game that was going on. This is not a bad thing. But it does take away from the game for me. I imagine it does the same for others as well. I'm not advocating that everyone role play but I wonder how all the die hard "I must group" players would respond if part of grouping actually demanded role play? My thought is that die hard groupers are really looking to be social and the medium they have chosen in an mmo.
The problem is, die-hard groupers aren't out trying to be social, they want to get a big group of people so they can get extra gold, XP and gear that they couldn't get otherwise. Ultimately, they're using other people to get better stuff and the people they're grouping with, by and large, are doing exactly the same thing with them.
Most groups I'm ever in, nobody ever says a word. It's kill target, move on, kill target, move on. Get the XP, get the loot, get to the next target so you can rinse, lather, repeat over and over again.
Maybe, the issue isn't so much about rewards, but having to deal with your fellow players? Sounds like the incentive and rewards of grouping might be more loot, access to all content, safety and services, and ease of progression, but many find the price of having to deal with other players' BS not worth it.
Not everyone is made so that they can be dumped into a world and then told "ok go to it". Which is why I really think there needs to be quests (and good quests, not just "go kill 10 bears) along with some sort of exploratory model. but when it comes to the group vs solo thing, the group thing, regardless of quests or 'no quests" tends to devolve into people shooting the shit. I remember once being in a group and some people were talking about some football game that was going on. This is not a bad thing. But it does take away from the game for me. I imagine it does the same for others as well. I'm not advocating that everyone role play but I wonder how all the die hard "I must group" players would respond if part of grouping actually demanded role play? My thought is that die hard groupers are really looking to be social and the medium they have chosen in an mmo.
The problem is, die-hard groupers aren't out trying to be social, they want to get a big group of people so they can get extra gold, XP and gear that they couldn't get otherwise. Ultimately, they're using other people to get better stuff and the people they're grouping with, by and large, are doing exactly the same thing with them.
Most groups I'm ever in, nobody ever says a word. It's kill target, move on, kill target, move on. Get the XP, get the loot, get to the next target so you can rinse, lather, repeat over and over again.
And as soon as YOUR needs are met - leave group.
True, but you have to remember that there has never been an MMO that has really been about grouping. Even if it's easier to be in a group, everything you are aquiring is solo gear. There's no such thing as group gear. You're after your own XP, your own gold, your own gear... none of which has anything to do with grouping. Every individual is playing for their own benefit, not for the benefit of the group.
The idea that grouping is what MMOs is about is absurd.
This thread makes the implication that grouping is more challenging than soloing in general. In my experience, grouping to complete a quest or defeat a boss is easy. It has been said there is strength in numbers. I've always been more impressed with gamers that can solo a quest or boss that usually takes a group to complete. Doesn't that take more skill and concentration than just charging in with a small army? I've read about players who solo raid dungeons in WoW or other games that groups have wiped in. Now I'm not begrudging the OP's desire for a group necessary mmorpg. It's his dream game style, and what he enjoys about playing. I don't believe he insulted anyone with stating what he wants. He wasn't suggesting anyone would be forced to play his mmorpg. Others have posted nasty responses that believe he is trying to force his grouping wishes on solo preferring gamers. How is that? First, you don't have to play his dream mmorpg. Second, it doesn't exist. Third, calm down.
I consider myself an experienced gamer having played DAoC, Everquest II, SWG, WoW, Vanguard, LOTRo, DDO, Runes of Magic, Champions Online and many other free games. For PnP/tabletop games I have GM/DM/played since 1980 starting with games from TSR, I.C.E, FASA, and White wolf. In MMOs I am often considered a more solo player, but I do group. My personality is the explorer type gamer. I love wandering through new content and I am the type of person that will attempt to take down a major boss solo, if possible. Whether this takes me many (100s) of attempts or requires me returning me several levels later. I am also patient so if I cannot complete something, I ask my wife to assist, if we cannot complete it and we do need a larger group to bypass something I can wait a year to complete the dungeon. I read nearly every thread in this discussion and had seen many valid arguments, often many people asked what Ihmotepp considered good grouping content. I agree with many posters both for and against. Annotated from Ihmotepps thread on what some requirements of good grouping are (Notes and titles in green are my annotations and not that of Ihmotepp ): www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/post/3161455/What-is-good-group-content.html#3161455
Here's a few elements that come to mind. 1. Requirement of extreme coordination (maximize the reward for your effort). Definition: Extreme coordination requires the group to use very organized tactics, exact timing and be well led. Often this requires groups to consist of particular class positions and to know the class well. Examples:
EQ and DAoC
- One missed mez/root, one missed heal, accidental aggro, and party wipe.
- totally dependent on what the OTHER players were doing. WoW and City of Heroes
- you could coordinate, but extreme coordination wasn't required.
- you could almost each take a separate mob and fight them and come out the same as if you watched everything every group member was doing very closely. Incentive in EQ or DAoC
- risk of party wipe, was the reward Pros:
Requirement to group with experienced or effective persons.
High level of difficulty.
Requirements of class particulars forms well balanced groups.
Cons:
Not made for the typical casual gamer.
Lack of experienced gamers or persons experienced in their class.
Casual gamers rule the financing of the market, so content is considered wasted by the developer. The effort to develop something for a limited group is not worth the cost.
Well balanced groups often become very diificult to find causing players to become disillusioned and quit. This is the case for casual gamer, which is the majority of gamers. The purpose of the game from a monetary point of view is to keep the player playing, especially the casual gamer. So games/instances/dungeons are dumber down enough to keep them returning.
2. Downtime. (Licking your wounds). Definition: Downtime makes you feel like you have pushed your group to the limits of their abilities. Out of mana, down to almost no hit points, no heals left! but we survived. Nice! The wait to regenerate made you feel like you were not invincible, and cooperation was truly required. - EQ was to much
- DaoC got it just right in my opinion
- City of heroes had it wrong. Go endlessly. Possibilities to implement:
1. Wound system game mechanic. SWG had this. Majority of players complained about the time or the requirements to heal the wounds.
2. Respawn timer attenuation. Difficult for developers to get timers right as each group is different.
3. Wandering monster system.
4. Rest locations. In DDO.
5. Re-buff locations. Dungeon difficulty to difficult without certain buffs. Players must gather and re-buff to continue. SWG had this originally. Pros:
Develops a sense of Commraderie.
Much like stopping points in a PnP/tabletop game.
Requires groups to setup camps or find special resting locales and often protect them. Cons:
Persons who cannot wait or be patient are in the majority.
Wound systems are another debate.
3. Open world. (Non-instanced dungeon)
Definition: A sense of being in the same world, with other players, and not shut off in an instance. Explanation: Groups could help groups. Help! our healer died! Another group could rescue your party from a wipe. Hey, can I join? My group disbanded and I'm here at the bottom of this scary dungeon all alone, and I'll never make it back out alive! That's an incentive to group, and a feeling that grouping matters. We can protect each other, and help each other. No just do the "group" dungeon real quick so you get the phat lewts like in WoW, and go right back to soloing. Pros:
Groups can help groups.
Groups can pick up stragglers.
Must be in group to push forward. Cons:
Farming groups ruin experience for other groups. SPAWN CAMPING. People who wanted a specific piece of equipment that dropped from a specific location mob or boss would have the group farm the spawn. This is a main reason instancing was developed.
Kill stealing. This is the origination of group kill stealing. Possibility to implement in a non-instance dungeon:
Make the good loot carrying boss spawn randomly throughout a larger area of the dungeon to avoid farm camping.
Make certain areas of an open-dungeon instanced.
4. Compensation for taking time to coordinate with your group.
Definition: As stated. Explanation: What do you want to do, what do you need to do? Do you need us to help you complete a quest? Can we escort you to the shop to repair your gear? Should we go hunt in this area or that one? - DAoC the bonus xp.
- EQ the fact that you wouldn't leave your naked corpse somewhere, compensated you so much, that you never felt rushed to xp, xp, cya, bye! like in City of Heroes. Pros:
? Cons:
? Debated:
Death penalty enforcement is another debated issue. Some like it, some don't.
Do groupers exert more effort putting a group together or does the soloer exert more effort by attempting to do what a group can solo? Possibilities to implement:
Social XP. Has been attempted in a variety of forms.
XP based on accomplishments completed. DDO completion-xp style.
5. Solo friendly games can lead to grouping often, but not for long. Join a group, quit, whatever, I can solo just as easy. In EQ and DAoC, a good group was important, so you tended to stay in a group longer, which meant more coordination, which was actually needed to excel. I enjoy the longer more meaningful group more than the jump in jump out, who cares, sort of group. Debated:
This entire point. 6. No scaling!
Definition: Dungeon difficulty not based on who enters. Explanation: Real obstacles to overcome and real sense of accomplishment when you finally made it to the bottom and killed the boss mob, sometimes after trying for several levels. Pros:
Difficult content that requires at least decent group to complete. Cons:
Content that is limited to certain groups. From a monetary perspective can be a waste of resource per dollar.
Requires groups to make a time commitment that only certain people have. Again waste of resource per dollar.
Scaling dungeons feel like an Iwin! button. go in with a group, it scales. Group leaves? So what, log off, go in again without the group, finish dungeon. That was City of Heroes. Not so in DAoC. Go in the dungeon with a group at your own peril. Get deep in, and don't make it to the bottom to kill the boss mob, and the party abandons you, tough shit. No scaling to hit the Iwin button.
Grouping all the time =/= good group content. No good group content =/= a bad game. I know that all the pros and cons I have listed may not be the only ones. Please feel free to add to this list.
Absolutely excellent summary.
this is exactly the point I've been trying to make.
You may not like a good grouping game, you may prefer something more solo friendly pre-raid like WoW, and that's fine.
This is at least an understanding of my position on what would make a fun game. So much better than madeux and LynxJSA just insisting over and over again that I don't want a "good grouping" game, I just want to force them to group with me for phat lewts, and they are so offended by that they constantly insult me personally.
I must be a troll, I must have no friends because I want to force them to group, over and over and over. Guys, I grouped in City of Heroes almost exclusively, and it was not a good grouping game, because it doesn't have the features listed above. I didn't need to "force" anyone to group in city of heroes, I played in groups ALL the time, but the game was still lacking.
The whole time I have stated emphatically, uh no guys, not trying to force you to group, just looking for good group content.
Just so happens when you put good group content in place that is challenging, yes, it's not going to be easy to solo to the top.
If you make it easy to solo to the top, you end up destroying most of the features listed above which contribute to good group content.
I'd love to make a game that played like EQ, DAoC AND like WoW pre-raid and City of Heroes at the same time, but I don't know how that's possible. When we make it like city of heroes and WoW, you ruin my group content. When we make it like DAoC, you guys scream OH MY GOD HE WANTS US TO GROUP WITH HIM< HE"S TRYING TO FORCE US!
All I've seen from LynxJSA and madeux is, let's make the game like WoW pre-raid or City of Heroes, leave out all the EQ and DAoC features like listed above, and you have to be happy with that. Otherwise, you're a bad person that wants to make us group with you and we dont' like that, so shame on you!
No guys, just want the features listed above, really not interested in grouping with either of you, really don't like the WoW model, really prefer the DAoC and EQ model of game features. That makes the game fun for me, but somehow asking for a game I find fun offends you guys to the point you need to insult me personally.
I love how you forget to mention that you have also repeatedly stated that there must be NO SOLO option, because you are weak of mind and spirit and will always just take the easy route.
You CAN solo in EQ, just not as fast as grouping.
That's what soloers call "forced grouping".
Not that you can't solo, which you can of course in EVERY game, but that you can't solo as fast as grouping.
There wasn't any content in EQ you could do solo, until you got to raiding.
Granted, you'd need to level up and go back and do the dungeons when the mobs were green to you, but you COULD do that, and some people did.
I love how you forget to mention that you have also repeatedly stated that there must be NO SOLO option, because you are weak of mind and spirit and will always just take the easy route.
Agreed. For someone who keeps saying he only wants to have fun playing his way, he sure seems to be concerned about how everyone else plays. The argument that without content that is too hard to solo, everyone will "take the easy route" ought to be irrelevant to his claims but they keep cropping up again and again. So what if everyone else wants to solo? How does that impact what *HE* does? If he can't find enough people to group with, that's *HIS* problem, not the game's. Maybe he shouldn't pick such an unpopular playstyle. But no, he wants to force others, through either increased difficulty or outright bribery, to do what he does in the desperate hopes that they'll admit he was right all along.
Unfortunately, it's bloody transparent and everyone can see right through his piss-poor tactics.
I have no problem finding groups.
I could easily find groups in solo friendly games like WoW pre raid, or City of Heroes.
Where do you get the idea I have any problem finding groups?
So what? The OP wants a game where the level of difficulty is such that solo adventuring is extremely dangerous at best, and down right impossible at the worst. Why is this such a hard thing to understand? OP likes this style of game, you don't. Big deal.
It has nothing to do with liking it or not, it has to do with it being financially viable. For the millions of dollars it costs to fund these games, there has to be enough people who are willing to subscribe for enough years to make it worthwhile. Since the majority of people solo and there are so many solo-friendly games out there, such a group-centric game would fail within a couple of months and nobody would ever make one again.
It's fine to want something, it's absurd to think that because you want it, all other concerns go out the window.
So basically, you agree with me and you'd like to see a better grouping game, but you're just trying to design games here that will make the most profit?
You're saying, sure, sounds like a real fun game, but you'll just never make the kind of money WoW does?
And then there's this.
No one would design a game where grouping is mandatory (and I'm not even asking it be mandatory, just encouraged). Because, you know, it would FAIL!
No, the problem is that when you're offered a game where you can level 100% of the time via group content, you refuse it on the grounds that other players can solo 100% of the time too. Your problem is that you want 100% developer commitment for a playstyle that less than 5% of the playerbase would find desirable. Your problem is that you're not just concerned about your own fun; you are also committed to ruining other peoples.
You are still saying I should be able to find a group in a solo friendly game.
I am not asking for a game where I can level 100% of the time in groups. I can do that in WoW just fine.
I am asking for a game with good group content.
I have no trouble finding groups in solo friendly games. Please re-read the original post.
I am concerned about MY fun, not yours. Please read the original post again.
WTF DUDE/LADY
You want Group play??? HUUUha???????? Will Solo friendly games Have that. Group games dont have Solo play. Dont ruin it for us. You get Group Play. Check WoW for Example. End Game is nothing but Grouping. Dont spoil the soloing that we like, when you get to do grouping in both game types
So what? The OP wants a game where the level of difficulty is such that solo adventuring is extremely dangerous at best, and down right impossible at the worst. Why is this such a hard thing to understand? OP likes this style of game, you don't. Big deal.
It has nothing to do with liking it or not, it has to do with it being financially viable. For the millions of dollars it costs to fund these games, there has to be enough people who are willing to subscribe for enough years to make it worthwhile. Since the majority of people solo and there are so many solo-friendly games out there, such a group-centric game would fail within a couple of months and nobody would ever make one again.
It's fine to want something, it's absurd to think that because you want it, all other concerns go out the window.
So basically, you agree with me and you'd like to see a better grouping game, but you're just trying to design games here that will make the most profit?
You're saying, sure, sounds like a real fun game, but you'll just never make the kind of money WoW does?
And then there's this.
No one would design a game where grouping is mandatory (and I'm not even asking it be mandatory, just encouraged). Because, you know, it would FAIL!
What's the end game of WoW? Why doesnt' it fail?
BECAUSE IN WOW YOU CAN SOLO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Whats so F&**ing hard to understand about this?
I dont wana have a find 4 other players just to complete a quest to kill a single Boar. That would be Stupid as S#i+
You Anti-Soloers make it seem like we want games to be 100% Soloable. No we dont. We want the game to have Solo elements. Not 100% Grouped as in needing a group just to take out 1 normal mob
So what? The OP wants a game where the level of difficulty is such that solo adventuring is extremely dangerous at best, and down right impossible at the worst. Why is this such a hard thing to understand? OP likes this style of game, you don't. Big deal.
It has nothing to do with liking it or not, it has to do with it being financially viable. For the millions of dollars it costs to fund these games, there has to be enough people who are willing to subscribe for enough years to make it worthwhile. Since the majority of people solo and there are so many solo-friendly games out there, such a group-centric game would fail within a couple of months and nobody would ever make one again.
It's fine to want something, it's absurd to think that because you want it, all other concerns go out the window.
So basically, you agree with me and you'd like to see a better grouping game, but you're just trying to design games here that will make the most profit?
You're saying, sure, sounds like a real fun game, but you'll just never make the kind of money WoW does?
And then there's this.
No one would design a game where grouping is mandatory (and I'm not even asking it be mandatory, just encouraged). Because, you know, it would FAIL!
What's the end game of WoW? Why doesnt' it fail?
BECAUSE IN WOW YOU CAN SOLO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Whats so F&**ing hard to understand about this?
I dont wana have a find 4 other players just to complete a quest to kill a single Boar. That would be Stupid as S#i+
You Anti-Soloers make it seem like we want games to be 100% Soloable. No we dont. We want the game to have Solo elements. Not 100% Grouped as in needing a group just to take out 1 normal mob
You can solo in EQ too, and many people did.
you just don't make progress as fast as in a group.
Why do you have to make progress as fast as a group?
you anti-groupers make it seem like we want the game 100% group content. No, we don't. We want the game to have good grouping challenges. Not encourage you to solo to the level cap like WoW.
No, the problem is that when you're offered a game where you can level 100% of the time via group content, you refuse it on the grounds that other players can solo 100% of the time too. Your problem is that you want 100% developer commitment for a playstyle that less than 5% of the playerbase would find desirable. Your problem is that you're not just concerned about your own fun; you are also committed to ruining other peoples.
You are still saying I should be able to find a group in a solo friendly game.
I am not asking for a game where I can level 100% of the time in groups. I can do that in WoW just fine.
I am asking for a game with good group content.
I have no trouble finding groups in solo friendly games. Please re-read the original post.
I am concerned about MY fun, not yours. Please read the original post again.
WTF DUDE/LADY
You want Group play??? HUUUha???????? Will Solo friendly games Have that. Group games dont have Solo play. Dont ruin it for us. You get Group Play. Check WoW for Example. End Game is nothing but Grouping. Dont spoil the soloing that we like, when you get to do grouping in both game types
All group games allow you to solo. You just dont' make progress as fast as in a group. You could certainly solo in EQ and DaoC if you wanted to.
But you would make more progress in a group.
Don't spoil the grouping I like by dumbing down the content so you can solo to the cap more easily than grouping, like in WoW.
So what? The OP wants a game where the level of difficulty is such that solo adventuring is extremely dangerous at best, and down right impossible at the worst. Why is this such a hard thing to understand? OP likes this style of game, you don't. Big deal.
It has nothing to do with liking it or not, it has to do with it being financially viable. For the millions of dollars it costs to fund these games, there has to be enough people who are willing to subscribe for enough years to make it worthwhile. Since the majority of people solo and there are so many solo-friendly games out there, such a group-centric game would fail within a couple of months and nobody would ever make one again.
It's fine to want something, it's absurd to think that because you want it, all other concerns go out the window.
So basically, you agree with me and you'd like to see a better grouping game, but you're just trying to design games here that will make the most profit?
You're saying, sure, sounds like a real fun game, but you'll just never make the kind of money WoW does?
And then there's this.
No one would design a game where grouping is mandatory (and I'm not even asking it be mandatory, just encouraged). Because, you know, it would FAIL!
What's the end game of WoW? Why doesnt' it fail?
BECAUSE IN WOW YOU CAN SOLO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Whats so F&**ing hard to understand about this?
I dont wana have a find 4 other players just to complete a quest to kill a single Boar. That would be Stupid as S#i+
You Anti-Soloers make it seem like we want games to be 100% Soloable. No we dont. We want the game to have Solo elements. Not 100% Grouped as in needing a group just to take out 1 normal mob
Exactly.
If I want to solo it, if I can manage to get it done, I have the option to solo. I can also opt for teaming up with people I want, I like. I do not need to group with people I do not like, even if its awefully hard to solo.
If the game has options, I will like quests or activities I like to do, then I decide if I am trying to solo it, 2box it, or find friends, or PUG. If a game has no options, then I will look at another game and ask, should I change sub?
That is me, I am playing for my entertainment, for being with my friends and people I enjoy. I do not enjoy being with people who keeps rambling about not enough xp from this quest, not enough drops or loot from that boss. If they need to ramble, go ramble here on this web.
No, the problem is that when you're offered a game where you can level 100% of the time via group content, you refuse it on the grounds that other players can solo 100% of the time too. Your problem is that you want 100% developer commitment for a playstyle that less than 5% of the playerbase would find desirable. Your problem is that you're not just concerned about your own fun; you are also committed to ruining other peoples.
You are still saying I should be able to find a group in a solo friendly game.
I am not asking for a game where I can level 100% of the time in groups. I can do that in WoW just fine.
I am asking for a game with good group content.
I have no trouble finding groups in solo friendly games. Please re-read the original post.
I am concerned about MY fun, not yours. Please read the original post again.
WTF DUDE/LADY
You want Group play??? HUUUha???????? Will Solo friendly games Have that. Group games dont have Solo play. Dont ruin it for us. You get Group Play. Check WoW for Example. End Game is nothing but Grouping. Dont spoil the soloing that we like, when you get to do grouping in both game types
All group games allow you to solo. You just dont' make progress as fast as in a group. You could certainly solo in EQ and DaoC if you wanted to.
But you would make more progress in a group.
Don't spoil the grouping I like by dumbing down the content so you can solo to the cap more easily than grouping, like in WoW.
I don't think EVERY game has to be a WoW clone.
Why don't I make as much progress soloing? Why? Because you do not want it? Besides that, what rule or reason is there that states group activities must pay more per head?
The best business man on earth earns more running his own company than being in a partnership. Go sue him for that.
Don't spoil the game you like? How selfish can you be? How about you don't spoil the game for us? Next time you see a pretty girl walking along the pathway, "don't spoil my chances of getting laid, leave her alone" you said.
Everything you said is ego centric, everything is you you you.
Why don't I make as much progress soloing? Why? Because you do not want it? Besides that, what rule or reason is there that states group activities must pay more per head? You don't make as much progress because world is harder. Why? That's the game design. There is no rule. There are no "musts". OP is talking about a game style he would enjoy The best business man on earth earns more running his own company than being in a partnership. Go sue him for that. What does this have to do with anything? Don't spoil the game you like? How selfish can you be? How about you don't spoil the game for us? Next time you see a pretty girl walking along the pathway, "don't spoil my chances of getting laid, leave her alone" you said. If it's selfish (which i assume you mean as a negative) for the OP to not want his hypothetical game 'spolied', isn't it also selfish to for you to say the exact same thing? Try to cut back on the hypocritical faux outrage. Everything you said is ego centric, everything is you you you. So? That's the point. He is talking about a game HE WOULD PREFER. I know why you do not make a good group member. Why is that?
I don't understand why everybody gets their panties all wound up over this. There can be more than one type of game. A one-size-fits-all solution is neither required nor necessary.
What in God's name are you rambling on about OP? In all seriousness, have you actually read your own post? I think the bottle of Prozac needs a refill... By the way why do you and every other cement head on this planet feel that you need to push your views, opinions, and ideas on everyone else and those who see things in a different light are always wrong? Is it impossible for the majority of you asshats to just shut the hell up and play YOUR game?
People like you are the reason I solo more than group you ever think about that?
Once the game is over, the king and the pawn go back in the same box. ~ Italian proverb
But that is where your perception, and possibly the facts, collide with consumer behaviour.
There are a lot of MMOs, but most of them are considered old by todays standards, which seem to have a memory of 2 years tops. People dont really bother looking at old games a lot of the time. They will jump ship from their CURRENT (read:old) game to the new one.
And since there is only a P2P release every 6 months at most, if that, each time a new game crops up everyone and their dog jumps on it, expecting it to cater to them.
People dont think: "Hey, next month Age of Conan is releasing, its intended for the hardcore PvP twitchy players with little time, glad to see that segment get their game", but they think " Hey, next month Age of Conan is released, I ll be there and chew through the group PvE raiding part that I enjoy, and it I want to experience there with cooler graphics, and its all about what I want and need"
Basically, almost every release is flooded with largely the same audience, and at the beginning only very little difference exists. You can see that in the chat channels, the forums, and often the developers frantic attempts at coming to terms with the weird sort of player they seem to have attracted.
To many Devs, it often seems shocking to see they now have 300k Ex-WoW-Pve-Soloists at their hands, when they marketed their game as a group-PvP game, simply because people dont care. People rush all over every new release even remotely looking like an MMORPG with a setting they like, and naturally expect it to conform to their past experiences. Devs see that a lot of money is sitting there, and start to quickly try and bend their game, originally a group PvP game for hardcores, enough to retain a large number of these "misguided" customers.
Naturally, this never works as we have seen several times, and in the end the people leave, and the game remains a twisted wreckage, because now it didnt just lose a demographic it never even asked for to begin with, but it also damaged or even ruined its own initial premise, and alienated its originally intended audience.
Groupers will never get their own game, and pure soloers may do so right now, but these games are always going to falter and bleed out if they dont reinvent the MMO-wheel differently. Simply because people expect both things to be present, just in slightly different emphasis from player to player.
What in God's name are you rambling on about OP? In all seriousness, have you actually read your own post? I think the bottle of Prozac needs a refill... By the way why do you and every other cement head on this planet feel that you need to push your views, opinions, and ideas on everyone else and those who see things in a different light are always wrong? Is it impossible for the majority of you asshats to just shut the hell up and play YOUR game? People like you are the reason I solo more than group you ever think about that?
216 people posted before you with insightful dialogue about a complex issue that impacts how folks enjoy their games. (perhaps you should have read some of them)
And then you came along........
The OP is an appeal for game design where grouping is the more efficient method of completing game objectives and advancing character attributes and skills. It does not exclude soloers, but it does punish them somewhat in that they will advance more slowly. (and miss out on some content as well)
Early DAOC had it. So did EQ1. Most games today such as WOW clearly do not. (Grouping is restricted to limited dungeon instances or raids, which are not the same type of design at all)
As stated, not every game has to be designed to please everyone, there is plenty of room for games that cater to those that prefer a more team oriented gameplay design.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Why don't I make as much progress soloing? Why? Because you do not want it? Besides that, what rule or reason is there that states group activities must pay more per head? You don't make as much progress because world is harder. Why? That's the game design. There is no rule. There are no "musts". OP is talking about a game style he would enjoy The best business man on earth earns more running his own company than being in a partnership. Go sue him for that. What does this have to do with anything? Don't spoil the game you like? How selfish can you be? How about you don't spoil the game for us? Next time you see a pretty girl walking along the pathway, "don't spoil my chances of getting laid, leave her alone" you said. If it's selfish (which i assume you mean as a negative) for the OP to not want his hypothetical game 'spolied', isn't it also selfish to for you to say the exact same thing? Try to cut back on the hypocritical faux outrage. Everything you said is ego centric, everything is you you you. So? That's the point. He is talking about a game HE WOULD PREFER. I know why you do not make a good group member. Why is that?
I don't understand why everybody gets their panties all wound up over this. There can be more than one type of game. A one-size-fits-all solution is neither required nor necessary.
If there is no "rule", and every game designer makes his own rule, the OP should go shop for games that fits his bills, and stop complaining about other games not designed to his taste. I never complain about existence of games I do not want to play, the OP rambles endlessly.
I am saying a good soloer may and can achieve a lot more than a stupid group. In business, in games and in many ways. Progess is not measured by the number of participants.
I am echoing his words, he thinks others spoil his game, which is totally stupid. No one spoils his game, no one plays with him. He is spoiling his own game by wanting to play a game not designed to his liking but feeling upset b/c some features in that game irritates him. He wants to eat a candy, but he hates sweet things. Yet he cannot let go of that candy or the candy manufacturer, and seems to think that candy lovers ruin his choice of snacks.
He is not talking about things he prefer and stop there, he goes on the blame others for ruining his day. Read what he said.
He is not a good team-mate because he does not want others to go afk during grouping, that slows HIS progress. He is upset b/c people takes time to get to group location, or he has to wait for this and that. He want games to award his xp for his grouping and so much more xp that people who do not group will progress much less. He want games to award HIM xp just b/c he form a group and is waiting on some members. He want everything everyone to fit his needs, so he levels fastest, gets the best gear. He is envious of achievement of solo gamers, he want games to punish the other gamers.
What is he? He is a selfish player who only thinks about what is best for him and wants everyone to adapt to his gaming. Is that a good team mate? In simple terms he wants to team with a soloist mind set, he want the best but need a team to get him his best, not get the best for others.
I want to team not for endless pushy moves, but to casually enjoy some chats, coops and so on. I want to /afk when I need to, talk or try out stupid things if one members want to check things out. I do not want the op in my group. PERIOD.
What in God's name are you rambling on about OP? In all seriousness, have you actually read your own post? I think the bottle of Prozac needs a refill... By the way why do you and every other cement head on this planet feel that you need to push your views, opinions, and ideas on everyone else and those who see things in a different light are always wrong? Is it impossible for the majority of you asshats to just shut the hell up and play YOUR game? People like you are the reason I solo more than group you ever think about that?
216 people posted before you with insightful dialogue about a complex issue that impacts how folks enjoy their games. (perhaps you should have read some of them)
And then you came along........
The OP is an appeal for game design where grouping is the more efficient method of completing game objectives and advancing character attributes and skills. It does not exclude soloers, but it does punish them somewhat in that they will advance more slowly. (and miss out on some content as well)
Early DAOC had it. So did EQ1. Most games today such as WOW clearly do not. (Grouping is restricted to limited dungeon instances or raids, which are not the same type of design at all)
As stated, not every game has to be designed to please everyone, there is plenty of room for games that cater to those that prefer a more team oriented gameplay design.
Perfectly agree, I might have reservations about the need to penalise soloist but leave it there.
The problem with the OP, is that he blames the solo gamers for ruining his game. Instead of finding games that he likes, he looks at games not designed for him, feeling upset, and start badmouthing gamers playing those games he hated.
Read his words, in exact words, he keeps saying "don't ruin my game by .... ". He blames everyone, due to his inability to move on. He loves a sexy girl, the sexy girl ignores him, he start blaming every other male on earth for ruining his chance in getting a laid with that lady.
Comments
I don't think that's really it. From what I get out of the OP and the ensuing conversation, it's that if the world is "soloable" then the incentive to group is nothing more than superficial. The OP seems to be more interested in a game where due to the harshness of the environment, strength in numbers is the way to go. I think it's the challenge or "danger" that the dedicated groupers are after, and maybe some of the "brothers in arms" feeling the may experience. It's not good or bad, just a different preference than the players who prefer a solo experience.
I mostly solo because, in my experience, most of the people in groups are poor players.
The problem is, die-hard groupers aren't out trying to be social, they want to get a big group of people so they can get extra gold, XP and gear that they couldn't get otherwise. Ultimately, they're using other people to get better stuff and the people they're grouping with, by and large, are doing exactly the same thing with them.
Most groups I'm ever in, nobody ever says a word. It's kill target, move on, kill target, move on. Get the XP, get the loot, get to the next target so you can rinse, lather, repeat over and over again.
And as soon as YOUR needs are met - leave group.
I agree.
The problem is, die-hard groupers aren't out trying to be social, they want to get a big group of people so they can get extra gold, XP and gear that they couldn't get otherwise. Ultimately, they're using other people to get better stuff and the people they're grouping with, by and large, are doing exactly the same thing with them.
Most groups I'm ever in, nobody ever says a word. It's kill target, move on, kill target, move on. Get the XP, get the loot, get to the next target so you can rinse, lather, repeat over and over again.
And as soon as YOUR needs are met - leave group.
True, but you have to remember that there has never been an MMO that has really been about grouping. Even if it's easier to be in a group, everything you are aquiring is solo gear. There's no such thing as group gear. You're after your own XP, your own gold, your own gear... none of which has anything to do with grouping. Every individual is playing for their own benefit, not for the benefit of the group.
The idea that grouping is what MMOs is about is absurd.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
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This thread makes the implication that grouping is more challenging than soloing in general. In my experience, grouping to complete a quest or defeat a boss is easy. It has been said there is strength in numbers. I've always been more impressed with gamers that can solo a quest or boss that usually takes a group to complete. Doesn't that take more skill and concentration than just charging in with a small army? I've read about players who solo raid dungeons in WoW or other games that groups have wiped in. Now I'm not begrudging the OP's desire for a group necessary mmorpg. It's his dream game style, and what he enjoys about playing. I don't believe he insulted anyone with stating what he wants. He wasn't suggesting anyone would be forced to play his mmorpg. Others have posted nasty responses that believe he is trying to force his grouping wishes on solo preferring gamers. How is that? First, you don't have to play his dream mmorpg. Second, it doesn't exist. Third, calm down.
Absolutely excellent summary.
this is exactly the point I've been trying to make.
You may not like a good grouping game, you may prefer something more solo friendly pre-raid like WoW, and that's fine.
This is at least an understanding of my position on what would make a fun game. So much better than madeux and LynxJSA just insisting over and over again that I don't want a "good grouping" game, I just want to force them to group with me for phat lewts, and they are so offended by that they constantly insult me personally.
I must be a troll, I must have no friends because I want to force them to group, over and over and over. Guys, I grouped in City of Heroes almost exclusively, and it was not a good grouping game, because it doesn't have the features listed above. I didn't need to "force" anyone to group in city of heroes, I played in groups ALL the time, but the game was still lacking.
The whole time I have stated emphatically, uh no guys, not trying to force you to group, just looking for good group content.
Just so happens when you put good group content in place that is challenging, yes, it's not going to be easy to solo to the top.
If you make it easy to solo to the top, you end up destroying most of the features listed above which contribute to good group content.
I'd love to make a game that played like EQ, DAoC AND like WoW pre-raid and City of Heroes at the same time, but I don't know how that's possible. When we make it like city of heroes and WoW, you ruin my group content. When we make it like DAoC, you guys scream OH MY GOD HE WANTS US TO GROUP WITH HIM< HE"S TRYING TO FORCE US!
All I've seen from LynxJSA and madeux is, let's make the game like WoW pre-raid or City of Heroes, leave out all the EQ and DAoC features like listed above, and you have to be happy with that. Otherwise, you're a bad person that wants to make us group with you and we dont' like that, so shame on you!
No guys, just want the features listed above, really not interested in grouping with either of you, really don't like the WoW model, really prefer the DAoC and EQ model of game features. That makes the game fun for me, but somehow asking for a game I find fun offends you guys to the point you need to insult me personally.
I love how you forget to mention that you have also repeatedly stated that there must be NO SOLO option, because you are weak of mind and spirit and will always just take the easy route.
You CAN solo in EQ, just not as fast as grouping.
That's what soloers call "forced grouping".
Not that you can't solo, which you can of course in EVERY game, but that you can't solo as fast as grouping.
There wasn't any content in EQ you could do solo, until you got to raiding.
Granted, you'd need to level up and go back and do the dungeons when the mobs were green to you, but you COULD do that, and some people did.
So what's this talk about NO SOLO option?
Agreed. For someone who keeps saying he only wants to have fun playing his way, he sure seems to be concerned about how everyone else plays. The argument that without content that is too hard to solo, everyone will "take the easy route" ought to be irrelevant to his claims but they keep cropping up again and again. So what if everyone else wants to solo? How does that impact what *HE* does? If he can't find enough people to group with, that's *HIS* problem, not the game's. Maybe he shouldn't pick such an unpopular playstyle. But no, he wants to force others, through either increased difficulty or outright bribery, to do what he does in the desperate hopes that they'll admit he was right all along.
Unfortunately, it's bloody transparent and everyone can see right through his piss-poor tactics.
I have no problem finding groups.
I could easily find groups in solo friendly games like WoW pre raid, or City of Heroes.
Where do you get the idea I have any problem finding groups?
It has nothing to do with liking it or not, it has to do with it being financially viable. For the millions of dollars it costs to fund these games, there has to be enough people who are willing to subscribe for enough years to make it worthwhile. Since the majority of people solo and there are so many solo-friendly games out there, such a group-centric game would fail within a couple of months and nobody would ever make one again.
It's fine to want something, it's absurd to think that because you want it, all other concerns go out the window.
So basically, you agree with me and you'd like to see a better grouping game, but you're just trying to design games here that will make the most profit?
You're saying, sure, sounds like a real fun game, but you'll just never make the kind of money WoW does?
And then there's this.
No one would design a game where grouping is mandatory (and I'm not even asking it be mandatory, just encouraged). Because, you know, it would FAIL!
What's the end game of WoW? Why doesnt' it fail?
You are still saying I should be able to find a group in a solo friendly game.
I am not asking for a game where I can level 100% of the time in groups. I can do that in WoW just fine.
I am asking for a game with good group content.
I have no trouble finding groups in solo friendly games. Please re-read the original post.
I am concerned about MY fun, not yours. Please read the original post again.
WTF DUDE/LADY
You want Group play??? HUUUha???????? Will Solo friendly games Have that. Group games dont have Solo play. Dont ruin it for us. You get Group Play. Check WoW for Example. End Game is nothing but Grouping. Dont spoil the soloing that we like, when you get to do grouping in both game types
It has nothing to do with liking it or not, it has to do with it being financially viable. For the millions of dollars it costs to fund these games, there has to be enough people who are willing to subscribe for enough years to make it worthwhile. Since the majority of people solo and there are so many solo-friendly games out there, such a group-centric game would fail within a couple of months and nobody would ever make one again.
It's fine to want something, it's absurd to think that because you want it, all other concerns go out the window.
So basically, you agree with me and you'd like to see a better grouping game, but you're just trying to design games here that will make the most profit?
You're saying, sure, sounds like a real fun game, but you'll just never make the kind of money WoW does?
And then there's this.
No one would design a game where grouping is mandatory (and I'm not even asking it be mandatory, just encouraged). Because, you know, it would FAIL!
What's the end game of WoW? Why doesnt' it fail?
BECAUSE IN WOW YOU CAN SOLO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Whats so F&**ing hard to understand about this?
I dont wana have a find 4 other players just to complete a quest to kill a single Boar. That would be Stupid as S#i+
You Anti-Soloers make it seem like we want games to be 100% Soloable. No we dont. We want the game to have Solo elements. Not 100% Grouped as in needing a group just to take out 1 normal mob
It has nothing to do with liking it or not, it has to do with it being financially viable. For the millions of dollars it costs to fund these games, there has to be enough people who are willing to subscribe for enough years to make it worthwhile. Since the majority of people solo and there are so many solo-friendly games out there, such a group-centric game would fail within a couple of months and nobody would ever make one again.
It's fine to want something, it's absurd to think that because you want it, all other concerns go out the window.
So basically, you agree with me and you'd like to see a better grouping game, but you're just trying to design games here that will make the most profit?
You're saying, sure, sounds like a real fun game, but you'll just never make the kind of money WoW does?
And then there's this.
No one would design a game where grouping is mandatory (and I'm not even asking it be mandatory, just encouraged). Because, you know, it would FAIL!
What's the end game of WoW? Why doesnt' it fail?
BECAUSE IN WOW YOU CAN SOLO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Whats so F&**ing hard to understand about this?
I dont wana have a find 4 other players just to complete a quest to kill a single Boar. That would be Stupid as S#i+
You Anti-Soloers make it seem like we want games to be 100% Soloable. No we dont. We want the game to have Solo elements. Not 100% Grouped as in needing a group just to take out 1 normal mob
You can solo in EQ too, and many people did.
you just don't make progress as fast as in a group.
Why do you have to make progress as fast as a group?
you anti-groupers make it seem like we want the game 100% group content. No, we don't. We want the game to have good grouping challenges. Not encourage you to solo to the level cap like WoW.
You are still saying I should be able to find a group in a solo friendly game.
I am not asking for a game where I can level 100% of the time in groups. I can do that in WoW just fine.
I am asking for a game with good group content.
I have no trouble finding groups in solo friendly games. Please re-read the original post.
I am concerned about MY fun, not yours. Please read the original post again.
WTF DUDE/LADY
You want Group play??? HUUUha???????? Will Solo friendly games Have that. Group games dont have Solo play. Dont ruin it for us. You get Group Play. Check WoW for Example. End Game is nothing but Grouping. Dont spoil the soloing that we like, when you get to do grouping in both game types
All group games allow you to solo. You just dont' make progress as fast as in a group. You could certainly solo in EQ and DaoC if you wanted to.
But you would make more progress in a group.
Don't spoil the grouping I like by dumbing down the content so you can solo to the cap more easily than grouping, like in WoW.
I don't think EVERY game has to be a WoW clone.
It has nothing to do with liking it or not, it has to do with it being financially viable. For the millions of dollars it costs to fund these games, there has to be enough people who are willing to subscribe for enough years to make it worthwhile. Since the majority of people solo and there are so many solo-friendly games out there, such a group-centric game would fail within a couple of months and nobody would ever make one again.
It's fine to want something, it's absurd to think that because you want it, all other concerns go out the window.
So basically, you agree with me and you'd like to see a better grouping game, but you're just trying to design games here that will make the most profit?
You're saying, sure, sounds like a real fun game, but you'll just never make the kind of money WoW does?
And then there's this.
No one would design a game where grouping is mandatory (and I'm not even asking it be mandatory, just encouraged). Because, you know, it would FAIL!
What's the end game of WoW? Why doesnt' it fail?
BECAUSE IN WOW YOU CAN SOLO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Whats so F&**ing hard to understand about this?
I dont wana have a find 4 other players just to complete a quest to kill a single Boar. That would be Stupid as S#i+
You Anti-Soloers make it seem like we want games to be 100% Soloable. No we dont. We want the game to have Solo elements. Not 100% Grouped as in needing a group just to take out 1 normal mob
Exactly.
If I want to solo it, if I can manage to get it done, I have the option to solo. I can also opt for teaming up with people I want, I like. I do not need to group with people I do not like, even if its awefully hard to solo.
If the game has options, I will like quests or activities I like to do, then I decide if I am trying to solo it, 2box it, or find friends, or PUG. If a game has no options, then I will look at another game and ask, should I change sub?
That is me, I am playing for my entertainment, for being with my friends and people I enjoy. I do not enjoy being with people who keeps rambling about not enough xp from this quest, not enough drops or loot from that boss. If they need to ramble, go ramble here on this web.
You are still saying I should be able to find a group in a solo friendly game.
I am not asking for a game where I can level 100% of the time in groups. I can do that in WoW just fine.
I am asking for a game with good group content.
I have no trouble finding groups in solo friendly games. Please re-read the original post.
I am concerned about MY fun, not yours. Please read the original post again.
WTF DUDE/LADY
You want Group play??? HUUUha???????? Will Solo friendly games Have that. Group games dont have Solo play. Dont ruin it for us. You get Group Play. Check WoW for Example. End Game is nothing but Grouping. Dont spoil the soloing that we like, when you get to do grouping in both game types
All group games allow you to solo. You just dont' make progress as fast as in a group. You could certainly solo in EQ and DaoC if you wanted to.
But you would make more progress in a group.
Don't spoil the grouping I like by dumbing down the content so you can solo to the cap more easily than grouping, like in WoW.
I don't think EVERY game has to be a WoW clone.
Why don't I make as much progress soloing? Why? Because you do not want it? Besides that, what rule or reason is there that states group activities must pay more per head?
The best business man on earth earns more running his own company than being in a partnership. Go sue him for that.
Don't spoil the game you like? How selfish can you be? How about you don't spoil the game for us? Next time you see a pretty girl walking along the pathway, "don't spoil my chances of getting laid, leave her alone" you said.
Everything you said is ego centric, everything is you you you.
I know why you do not make a good group member.
I don't understand why everybody gets their panties all wound up over this. There can be more than one type of game. A one-size-fits-all solution is neither required nor necessary.
What in God's name are you rambling on about OP? In all seriousness, have you actually read your own post? I think the bottle of Prozac needs a refill... By the way why do you and every other cement head on this planet feel that you need to push your views, opinions, and ideas on everyone else and those who see things in a different light are always wrong? Is it impossible for the majority of you asshats to just shut the hell up and play YOUR game?
People like you are the reason I solo more than group you ever think about that?
Once the game is over, the king and the pawn go back in the same box. ~ Italian proverb
But that is where your perception, and possibly the facts, collide with consumer behaviour.
There are a lot of MMOs, but most of them are considered old by todays standards, which seem to have a memory of 2 years tops. People dont really bother looking at old games a lot of the time. They will jump ship from their CURRENT (read:old) game to the new one.
And since there is only a P2P release every 6 months at most, if that, each time a new game crops up everyone and their dog jumps on it, expecting it to cater to them.
People dont think: "Hey, next month Age of Conan is releasing, its intended for the hardcore PvP twitchy players with little time, glad to see that segment get their game", but they think " Hey, next month Age of Conan is released, I ll be there and chew through the group PvE raiding part that I enjoy, and it I want to experience there with cooler graphics, and its all about what I want and need"
Basically, almost every release is flooded with largely the same audience, and at the beginning only very little difference exists. You can see that in the chat channels, the forums, and often the developers frantic attempts at coming to terms with the weird sort of player they seem to have attracted.
To many Devs, it often seems shocking to see they now have 300k Ex-WoW-Pve-Soloists at their hands, when they marketed their game as a group-PvP game, simply because people dont care. People rush all over every new release even remotely looking like an MMORPG with a setting they like, and naturally expect it to conform to their past experiences. Devs see that a lot of money is sitting there, and start to quickly try and bend their game, originally a group PvP game for hardcores, enough to retain a large number of these "misguided" customers.
Naturally, this never works as we have seen several times, and in the end the people leave, and the game remains a twisted wreckage, because now it didnt just lose a demographic it never even asked for to begin with, but it also damaged or even ruined its own initial premise, and alienated its originally intended audience.
Groupers will never get their own game, and pure soloers may do so right now, but these games are always going to falter and bleed out if they dont reinvent the MMO-wheel differently. Simply because people expect both things to be present, just in slightly different emphasis from player to player.
216 people posted before you with insightful dialogue about a complex issue that impacts how folks enjoy their games. (perhaps you should have read some of them)
And then you came along........
The OP is an appeal for game design where grouping is the more efficient method of completing game objectives and advancing character attributes and skills. It does not exclude soloers, but it does punish them somewhat in that they will advance more slowly. (and miss out on some content as well)
Early DAOC had it. So did EQ1. Most games today such as WOW clearly do not. (Grouping is restricted to limited dungeon instances or raids, which are not the same type of design at all)
As stated, not every game has to be designed to please everyone, there is plenty of room for games that cater to those that prefer a more team oriented gameplay design.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I don't understand why everybody gets their panties all wound up over this. There can be more than one type of game. A one-size-fits-all solution is neither required nor necessary.
If there is no "rule", and every game designer makes his own rule, the OP should go shop for games that fits his bills, and stop complaining about other games not designed to his taste. I never complain about existence of games I do not want to play, the OP rambles endlessly.
I am saying a good soloer may and can achieve a lot more than a stupid group. In business, in games and in many ways. Progess is not measured by the number of participants.
I am echoing his words, he thinks others spoil his game, which is totally stupid. No one spoils his game, no one plays with him. He is spoiling his own game by wanting to play a game not designed to his liking but feeling upset b/c some features in that game irritates him. He wants to eat a candy, but he hates sweet things. Yet he cannot let go of that candy or the candy manufacturer, and seems to think that candy lovers ruin his choice of snacks.
He is not talking about things he prefer and stop there, he goes on the blame others for ruining his day. Read what he said.
He is not a good team-mate because he does not want others to go afk during grouping, that slows HIS progress. He is upset b/c people takes time to get to group location, or he has to wait for this and that. He want games to award his xp for his grouping and so much more xp that people who do not group will progress much less. He want games to award HIM xp just b/c he form a group and is waiting on some members. He want everything everyone to fit his needs, so he levels fastest, gets the best gear. He is envious of achievement of solo gamers, he want games to punish the other gamers.
What is he? He is a selfish player who only thinks about what is best for him and wants everyone to adapt to his gaming. Is that a good team mate? In simple terms he wants to team with a soloist mind set, he want the best but need a team to get him his best, not get the best for others.
I want to team not for endless pushy moves, but to casually enjoy some chats, coops and so on. I want to /afk when I need to, talk or try out stupid things if one members want to check things out. I do not want the op in my group. PERIOD.
216 people posted before you with insightful dialogue about a complex issue that impacts how folks enjoy their games. (perhaps you should have read some of them)
And then you came along........
The OP is an appeal for game design where grouping is the more efficient method of completing game objectives and advancing character attributes and skills. It does not exclude soloers, but it does punish them somewhat in that they will advance more slowly. (and miss out on some content as well)
Early DAOC had it. So did EQ1. Most games today such as WOW clearly do not. (Grouping is restricted to limited dungeon instances or raids, which are not the same type of design at all)
As stated, not every game has to be designed to please everyone, there is plenty of room for games that cater to those that prefer a more team oriented gameplay design.
Perfectly agree, I might have reservations about the need to penalise soloist but leave it there.
The problem with the OP, is that he blames the solo gamers for ruining his game. Instead of finding games that he likes, he looks at games not designed for him, feeling upset, and start badmouthing gamers playing those games he hated.
Read his words, in exact words, he keeps saying "don't ruin my game by .... ". He blames everyone, due to his inability to move on. He loves a sexy girl, the sexy girl ignores him, he start blaming every other male on earth for ruining his chance in getting a laid with that lady.