By this definition I should be happy about gankers and griefers then. They pay their money, what they do in game is up to them. I have seen this so many times before, putting money over the counter does not entitle you to anything! You are not buying a book or a solo game here, once other people are involved this carte blanc entitlement you seem to think you have is nonsense. When you join a MMO you join a online community, you may not like this fact, it may get in the way of what you think is ‘fun’. But just like in real life you need to learn to work with other people and stop acting like the Lone Wolf who never grew up.
You can vote with your money and don't play with them. If there is a large segment of ganker and griefers, you will be sure that developers should cater to them and I wouldn't care if they gank/grief each other to dead.
Don't make it sounds like an obligation. MMORPGs are entertainment and nothing more. And you don't like the "community", you can always vote with your feet.
Firstly if you thought what I said was somehow an insult you are extraordinarily thin skinned.
There is going to be no such thing as a game released that is designed to be just for soloers, but a lot of F2P MMOs are very casual, you can go there is you want to. I say no such game will be designed because gaming companies want to make games that appeal to everyone. See Blaz’s post a couple up, it shows how many different ‘must haves’ players want. Gaming companies want to maximise their revenue, they design their games for solo and group players so they get the most subs. F2P is no exception, they want those RMT’s and that means maximising the player base.
So what we are fighting for here is the direction all MMO's will be going in, by all means put your hand up for more solo content, but don't be surprised when we say no it is grouping we want.
I could not understand what nariusseldon was getting at, I was trying to illustrate how ridiculous it is to say that any behaviour online is fine as long as you have paid your money to be there.
Seems to me the OP missed the point. Its not really possible to create a single game that caters well to both playstyles. MMO Devs want maximum subs so they tend to try and compromise (see WOW) and look what happens, no one is happy. (well, outside of the 5-12M people who play it I suppose)
That is indeed the point. Solo players, for some odd reason, think if they change the rules for the entire server so they can solo, and they wander off doing solo quests, that this does not affect my grouping game.
It does.
No, I do not see you, because you're on the other side of the zone. No, I am not competing with you or upset because you can level fast without a group. No, I don't want to force you to group with anyone.
But yes, I want rules taht make grouping fun, and if I can solo the game, the rules have changed to making grouping no longer fun. You can't change the rules on the entire server without affecting me too.
All you have to do is make dungeons that are specifically for solo or casual players. EQ2 has a couple, for example. You can make them scale to a one-or-two person group, have them be difficult and take strategy, and have them give a couple of decent rewards. Maybe not the epic stuff, but decent stuff. It's not that hard, really really is not. You could still have the big dungeons and the big raids for the hardcore groupers.
Then the grouping game is no longer fun, because you've changed the rules so I can solo the game.
I don't want a game that I can solo, that defeats the purpose of having a good grouping game.
Here's your challenge: Get over this 12 foot wall, and I will give you a prize.
You will need to get a friend to give you a boost to the top, then you'll need to reach down and help your friiend over the wall. It will be challenging, but it will the reward will be worth it.
Now, I just put a door in the 12 foot wall. You can walk through the door and get hte prize. But if you WANT to, you can still get a friend and climb over it. Either way, you get the prize though.
Well, I don't want to play now, it's not fun anymore. You changed the rules and took away the challenge. I'm not going to climb over the wall for the same prize I can get walking through the door. Taht's retarded.
You just changed the rules of the entire sever, so I can just go to the solo dungeon. You just made grouping pointless and took the challenge out of the entire game.
I am neutral in this position but...can't you just make the reward from having your friend help you greater than the reward for walking through the door? Your arguement relies on the reward being the same for both resolutions, when it doesn't have to be. I mean, isn't that one of the main points in the OP?
_________________________________ "Fixed it. Because that wall of text attacked me, killed me and looted my body..." -George "sniperg" Light
The problem with MMOGs is that you can't please everyone, and the MM part is saying that you are trying to. There are people who want the following (and more!):
Realism
Better Graphics
Worse Graphics
Full PvP
Only PvE
Full PvP Looting
No PvP Looting
Some PvP Looting
PvP Looting with Insurance on Items
More Story driven content!
Less Story driven content! And so, Soloable content is added to the list, and suddenly, the people who want "mostly group content, or only group content!" argue against it, which is to be expected when considering the MMOG community, and, most importantly, the MM part. Just look at driving on the road, billions of people do it every day. I prefer my driving like a race, because travel, in my opinion, is wasted time. I could be AT work right now, working! Being Paid! But instead I'm in my car... And so, I tend to speed a little, and get frustrated when someone else has their opinion of "I'm going to go 50km/h EVERYWHERE." and subsequently gets me stuck at a red light, while they plod on through (or alternatively, because they decided to stop at the lights during a yellow, and we sit there for a full few seconds while it goes red) I could get passionate about my driving style, and argue against everyone else's, but there's no where to vent. For my MMOG playing style, however, there is a place to vent, so people do, and argue vehemently against other people's styles that they disagree with. Grump. Grump. Shower-time.
At first, you make it sound as though this problem is limited to MMOG's and then, without even noticing it, give a real life example of a similar concept. Not every movie can satisfy everyone, which is why there are scary movies, funny movies, dramatic movies...etc...Nacho cheese Doritos aren't tastey to everyone, which is why we have Cool Ranch, Salsa Verde, etc...
This isn't "the problem with MMOG's," it is a known condition of the human race, it comes up everywhere and is the reason the phrase, "You can't please everyone," exists.
The real problem with MMOG's is that they take too long to make (who would of thought playing God was time consuming) and too much money to sustain. If it weren't for the crazy amount of time and money it takes to develop an MMOG, a lot of big Developers would have a "Solo Friendly MMO" and a "Solo Friendly MMO for people that like to group sometimes" and a "PvP MMO" and a "PvP MMO for people that like to PvE sometimes" and a "PvE MMO for people that don't like instances" and a "Completely instanced PvE MMO without a subscription" and an "MMO without Combat," etc...
Since nobody can provide this, and Developers aren't really looking to create their titles around different appealing features (a lot are just trying to emulate WoW), a lot of people are upset because there aren't enough good choices. That's why everyone here is argueing. One guy wants a solo friendly MMO and is willing to accept if his rewards aren't as good, per time, as a group player's rewards. Then there's another dude that wants the same rewards in the same time for solo play and you know the hardcore group play boss doesn't like that idea, chief.
_________________________________ "Fixed it. Because that wall of text attacked me, killed me and looted my body..." -George "sniperg" Light
Comments
You can vote with your money and don't play with them. If there is a large segment of ganker and griefers, you will be sure that developers should cater to them and I wouldn't care if they gank/grief each other to dead.
Don't make it sounds like an obligation. MMORPGs are entertainment and nothing more. And you don't like the "community", you can always vote with your feet.
Firstly if you thought what I said was somehow an insult you are extraordinarily thin skinned.
There is going to be no such thing as a game released that is designed to be just for soloers, but a lot of F2P MMOs are very casual, you can go there is you want to. I say no such game will be designed because gaming companies want to make games that appeal to everyone. See Blaz’s post a couple up, it shows how many different ‘must haves’ players want. Gaming companies want to maximise their revenue, they design their games for solo and group players so they get the most subs. F2P is no exception, they want those RMT’s and that means maximising the player base.
So what we are fighting for here is the direction all MMO's will be going in, by all means put your hand up for more solo content, but don't be surprised when we say no it is grouping we want.
I could not understand what nariusseldon was getting at, I was trying to illustrate how ridiculous it is to say that any behaviour online is fine as long as you have paid your money to be there.
That is indeed the point. Solo players, for some odd reason, think if they change the rules for the entire server so they can solo, and they wander off doing solo quests, that this does not affect my grouping game.
It does.
No, I do not see you, because you're on the other side of the zone. No, I am not competing with you or upset because you can level fast without a group. No, I don't want to force you to group with anyone.
But yes, I want rules taht make grouping fun, and if I can solo the game, the rules have changed to making grouping no longer fun. You can't change the rules on the entire server without affecting me too.
All you have to do is make dungeons that are specifically for solo or casual players. EQ2 has a couple, for example. You can make them scale to a one-or-two person group, have them be difficult and take strategy, and have them give a couple of decent rewards. Maybe not the epic stuff, but decent stuff. It's not that hard, really really is not. You could still have the big dungeons and the big raids for the hardcore groupers.
Then the grouping game is no longer fun, because you've changed the rules so I can solo the game.
I don't want a game that I can solo, that defeats the purpose of having a good grouping game.
Here's your challenge: Get over this 12 foot wall, and I will give you a prize.
You will need to get a friend to give you a boost to the top, then you'll need to reach down and help your friiend over the wall. It will be challenging, but it will the reward will be worth it.
Now, I just put a door in the 12 foot wall. You can walk through the door and get hte prize. But if you WANT to, you can still get a friend and climb over it. Either way, you get the prize though.
Well, I don't want to play now, it's not fun anymore. You changed the rules and took away the challenge. I'm not going to climb over the wall for the same prize I can get walking through the door. Taht's retarded.
You just changed the rules of the entire sever, so I can just go to the solo dungeon. You just made grouping pointless and took the challenge out of the entire game.
I am neutral in this position but...can't you just make the reward from having your friend help you greater than the reward for walking through the door? Your arguement relies on the reward being the same for both resolutions, when it doesn't have to be. I mean, isn't that one of the main points in the OP?
_________________________________
"Fixed it. Because that wall of text attacked me, killed me and looted my body..."
-George "sniperg" Light
At first, you make it sound as though this problem is limited to MMOG's and then, without even noticing it, give a real life example of a similar concept. Not every movie can satisfy everyone, which is why there are scary movies, funny movies, dramatic movies...etc...Nacho cheese Doritos aren't tastey to everyone, which is why we have Cool Ranch, Salsa Verde, etc...
This isn't "the problem with MMOG's," it is a known condition of the human race, it comes up everywhere and is the reason the phrase, "You can't please everyone," exists.
The real problem with MMOG's is that they take too long to make (who would of thought playing God was time consuming) and too much money to sustain. If it weren't for the crazy amount of time and money it takes to develop an MMOG, a lot of big Developers would have a "Solo Friendly MMO" and a "Solo Friendly MMO for people that like to group sometimes" and a "PvP MMO" and a "PvP MMO for people that like to PvE sometimes" and a "PvE MMO for people that don't like instances" and a "Completely instanced PvE MMO without a subscription" and an "MMO without Combat," etc...
Since nobody can provide this, and Developers aren't really looking to create their titles around different appealing features (a lot are just trying to emulate WoW), a lot of people are upset because there aren't enough good choices. That's why everyone here is argueing. One guy wants a solo friendly MMO and is willing to accept if his rewards aren't as good, per time, as a group player's rewards. Then there's another dude that wants the same rewards in the same time for solo play and you know the hardcore group play boss doesn't like that idea, chief.
_________________________________
"Fixed it. Because that wall of text attacked me, killed me and looted my body..."
-George "sniperg" Light