Loners and outcasts are just that loners and outcasts, they dont do a darn thing for the community. They dont provide depth whatsoever. The only thing they provide is a sub rate to the game company. The community would go on just fine with or without them.
They don't participate to create a good, social community... they're dead weight in that sense. The more of those players are on a server, the worse the community will become because of their... unwillingness to participate.
Using LOL is like saying "my argument sucks but I still want to disagree".
Loners and outcasts are just that loners and outcasts, they dont do a darn thing for the community. They dont provide depth whatsoever. The only thing they provide is a sub rate to the game company. The community would go on just fine with or without them.
They don't participate to create a good, social community... they're dead weight in that sense. The more of those players are on a server, the worse the community will become because of their... unwillingness to participate.
I guess I can buy into that.
On a side note lets just say soloers could solo all their gear, besides boring, how fun would it be to play a game where every class would be wearing the exact same gear. Their would be no variations because everyone could solo the best gear. There would have to be a dye system in place but I would hope that solo'er are not THAT shallow to where dye would make them feel all the better.
Edit: or I guess you could have an extremly low drop rate on the gear but either way I would have to pass, because the only factor involved is time.
Waiting for:EQ-Next, ArcheAge (not so much anymore) Now Playing: N/A Worst MMO: FFXIV Favorite MMO: FFXI
Loners and outcasts are just that loners and outcasts, they dont do a darn thing for the community. They dont provide depth whatsoever. The only thing they provide is a sub rate to the game company. The community would go on just fine with or without them.
They don't participate to create a good, social community... they're dead weight in that sense. The more of those players are on a server, the worse the community will become because of their... unwillingness to participate.
this to me is no different than a guilded player. They usually don't interact with anyone outside their self-interested circle either.
__________________________ "Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it." --Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints." --Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls." --Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
Originally posted by Beatnik59 this to me is no different than a guilded player. They usually don't interact with anyone outside their self-interested circle either.
The entire purpose of a guild is EXCLUSION. All the people who treat MMORPG's as a game couldn't possibly care less whether they "give away secrets" or do something first, etc. The only reason anyone ever joins a guild is to get stuff that others can't get. The "leaders" use the guild members, and the guild members use their leaders in exactly the same way.
The problem is that there is no heavy lifting involved with any computer game. So the only way to make content exclusive is to continually increase the inconvenience and aggravation involved in getting it. That makes the gameplay transition into less of a community enterprise and more of a cultish, power-based hierarchy.
This eventually makes the playerbase more dependent, but at the same time more insular. The people who are willing to virtually shave their heads will stick with their commitment to the bitter end. But fewer and fewer new people will get suckered in.
Originally posted by Beatnik59 this to me is no different than a guilded player. They usually don't interact with anyone outside their self-interested circle either.
The entire purpose of a guild is EXCLUSION. All the people who treat MMORPG's as a game couldn't possibly care less whether they "give away secrets" or do something first, etc. The only reason anyone ever joins a guild is to get stuff that others can't get. The "leaders" use the guild members, and the guild members use their leaders in exactly the same way.
The problem is that there is no heavy lifting involved with any computer game. So the only way to make content exclusive is to continually increase the inconvenience and aggravation involved in getting it. That makes the gameplay transition into less of a community enterprise and more of a cultish, power-based hierarchy.
This eventually makes the playerbase more dependent, but at the same time more insular. The people who are willing to virtually shave their heads will stick with their commitment to the bitter end. But fewer and fewer new people will get suckered in.
I agree. And that is why I believe that the group mechanic alone is not going to create sociability any more than solo-based games will decrease sociability.
__________________________ "Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it." --Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints." --Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls." --Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
Loners and outcasts are just that loners and outcasts, they dont do a darn thing for the community. They dont provide depth whatsoever. The only thing they provide is a sub rate to the game company. The community would go on just fine with or without them.
They don't participate to create a good, social community... they're dead weight in that sense. The more of those players are on a server, the worse the community will become because of their... unwillingness to participate.
this to me is no different than a guilded player. They usually don't interact with anyone outside their self-interested circle either.
Exactly! Players in a guild are more likely to only have time to help those within the guild and only reach out to others outside the guild when it's deemed useful, like recruiting. Soloist on the other hand are more likely to help others or throw a bone to a lowbie. That's because they don't have the ties associated with players in a guild. Furthermore, small tightly knit guilds with friends and family within a guild may not allow many "outsiders" in for fear of them bringing in issues of behavior and having to addressing them.
I think you get more freeloaders from players that enjoy grouping together that may not pull their weight, than say a soloist who more than likely knows the ins and outs of his character, if simply from the experience of soloing so much. To me these guys are a lot more helpful/useful to a community. It would seem they would be easier to transition into an occasional group than players who've always depended on groups to pull them through.
As pointed out in the italics above, anyone can argue the points of what type of character (soloist/grouper) seem to be more helpful to a community. I for the record enjoy grouping when done correctly, as seen in FFXI. There, everyone was bringing something to the table and skills could be linked to make grinding in groups faster.
But more and more companies are not offering enough dynamics to warrant the hassle of weeding out players who get it and those who do. So now I think most players start a new game with a clear definition of what they are going to get accomplished and if they have to group on the way to do it, most would not mind. But keeping a group of people together for more than 15 to 20 minutes for a group quest or a lower level dungeon run are not needed to have a thriving, healthy community.
"Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas."
I think you get more freeloaders from players that enjoy grouping together that may not pull their weight, than say a soloist who more than likely knows the ins and outs of his character, if simply from the experience of soloing so much. To me these guys are a lot more helpful/useful to a community. It would seem they would be easier to transition into an occasional group than players who've always depended on groups to pull them through.
Usually the people in games who never group dont function too well in groups. The healer classes that solo cant keep people alive because they never healer other people so they arent used to it, the tank classes cant keep mobs off other characters because they never have that problem soloing. In soloing its just you vs the mob, theres no teamwork involved so they arent that great at teamwork. I dont have problem with soloing, its not exactly my style but I dont endlessly bash people who want to solo but saying people that groupers are "freeloaders" and soloers know their class better so they function more efficiently is just ignorant.
If your typically a freeloader than groups wont do too well with you and none of your groups will be able to get anything done. Also people will notice how you play. Thats where the community comes in play, if someone is ninja looting or whining/yelling at other people then he gains a reputation for that. In vanguard I had someone ask if he could go afk and autofollow for a few mins. Im a pretty friendly person and so was everyone in the group so we said ok. He went afk for 2 hours (he had a good friend in group so we couldnt really just kick him from it). He recieved free xp and loot for 2 hours of everyone elses expense. You know what I did? I stayed away from him at all times after that.
I think you get more freeloaders from players that enjoy grouping together that may not pull their weight, than say a soloist who more than likely knows the ins and outs of his character, if simply from the experience of soloing so much. To me these guys are a lot more helpful/useful to a community. It would seem they would be easier to transition into an occasional group than players who've always depended on groups to pull them through.
Usually the people in games who never group dont function too well in groups. The healer classes that solo cant keep people alive because they never healer other people so they arent used to it, the tank classes cant keep mobs off other characters because they never have that problem soloing. In soloing its just you vs the mob, theres no teamwork involved so they arent that great at teamwork. I dont have problem with soloing, its not exactly my style but I dont endlessly bash people who want to solo but saying people that groupers are "freeloaders" and soloers know their class better so they function more efficiently is just ignorant.
If your typically a freeloader than groups wont do too well with you and none of your groups will be able to get anything done. Also people will notice how you play. Thats where the community comes in play, if someone is ninja looting or whining/yelling at other people then he gains a reputation for that. In vanguard I had someone ask if he could go afk and autofollow for a few mins. Im a pretty friendly person and so was everyone in the group so we said ok. He went afk for 2 hours (he had a good friend in group so we couldnt really just kick him from it). He recieved free xp and loot for 2 hours of everyone elses expense. You know what I did? I stayed away from him at all times after that.
The statement I made in italics only served as an example of what some others may use as a counter argument if attacked on the grounds of if soloist are helpful to the community or not. By no means what this anything I wish to debate as it was not the focus of my point......please read the paragraph that follows it.
My point is that developers are not putting in dynamics to make grouping as enjoyable as it can be, hence my mention of enjoying FFXI's combat system. When they shift focus from only using group play as a way to just throw players together to something more deep and intertwined like linking skills and adding reasons to be in a group other than killing things faster, then we can talk about what players really expect from group dynamics and what would make them more appealing to soloists.
"Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas."
My only objection to soloers having access to the same loot as groupers has nothing to do with wanting to feel superior, nor do i care a bit when I see others strutting around in gear better than mine. I just have this old-fashioned idea about RPGs that creatures actually drop loot (rather than tokens and badges) and the more powerful the creature the more powerful the loot. It therefore follows that you would need to team up with other players in order to overcome the most powerful guardians and acquire the best loot.
I don't demand that everyone share this view of MMORPGs, there is room in the genre for lots of different styles of game. It would be nice though to move the discussion beyond 'groupers just want to keep the best loot for themselves', 'soloers are just anti-social and should stick to single player games' etc.
In any event the gear side of things is kind of a red herring because it is just not that important. Everyone likes receiving new items but if it becomes your main reason to play then you really need to get some fresh air.
I think content is the far more important issue, for both soloers and groupers. It seems to me that soloers have an inherent disadvantage in this respect: Solo encounters are, by their very nature, less complex than group and raid encounters because there are less characters and abilities involved. It is therefore much harder to create end-game solo content that remains fresh and interesting for very long.
Oh boy, another one of these threads...Why must we rehash the same thing that has been stated over the past week in two or three other identical threads? Ok, here's a suggestion, maybe play different games then you've been playing. Obviously you're dissatisfied with the MMOs you've played so far. Try some new ones, keep looking and stop whining. Hey, I'm not happy with what's been released currently either, but I'm not going to whine about it and blame it on other players (they didn't create the game, the developers made the game the way it was and you either subscribe, or you don't, it's your choice).
I mean c'mon man! Most MMOs today piss me off so I only focus on certain ones I like. Currently, I'm waiting for FFXIV since I think it will be my style, just like FFXI was. Stop bitching and play the games you like!! Stop trying to change the whole damn genre. I've got one for you. Try SW:TOR when it comes out. It sounds very solo friendly from its description, you might just like it, or you may continue to cry about the whole genre, I don't know. lol for real!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I think content is the far more important issue, for both soloers and groupers. It seems to me that soloers have an inherent disadvantage in this respect: Solo encounters are, by their very nature, less complex than group and raid encounters because there are less characters and abilities involved. It is therefore much harder to create end-game solo content that remains fresh and interesting for very long.
I have to respectfully disagree with you here. If that was the case, single player rpgs would never have evolved. If anything one could argue that adding more people make the encounter for individuals even more simple. For example a player does not have to worry about managing his health because he has a healer backing him up.
Endgame content is stuck on stupid only because the imaginations of the developers are exhausted. Once I pictured a MMO that would let you create a endgame goals for your character to achieve. Say I created a warrior and at character creation I was given the opportunity to pick a milestone goal of say, making a very powerful sword.
Now say my character starts and right away instead of generic fetch quest, npcs would give me clues as to tracking down what is needed to forge this blade or to make it if I'm a crafter. All the while I'm doing a mix of group and solo quest to reach my goal and in the process I'm working toward something that caters to me. Now once I complete that milestone I'm given the choice of starting a new one, the possibilities are only limited to what the player can come up with.
This might be a bad system for people used to instant loot or actual gear that drops from mobs, but RPers would probably enjoy it.
"Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas."
Originally posted by Beatnik59 this to me is no different than a guilded player. They usually don't interact with anyone outside their self-interested circle either.
The entire purpose of a guild is EXCLUSION. All the people who treat MMORPG's as a game couldn't possibly care less whether they "give away secrets" or do something first, etc. The only reason anyone ever joins a guild is to get stuff that others can't get. The "leaders" use the guild members, and the guild members use their leaders in exactly the same way.
The problem is that there is no heavy lifting involved with any computer game. So the only way to make content exclusive is to continually increase the inconvenience and aggravation involved in getting it. That makes the gameplay transition into less of a community enterprise and more of a cultish, power-based hierarchy.
This eventually makes the playerbase more dependent, but at the same time more insular. The people who are willing to virtually shave their heads will stick with their commitment to the bitter end. But fewer and fewer new people will get suckered in.
Time-out. Games like FFXI which is a true grouping game is not LS (Guild) exclusive at all. You will group with any other LS member when ever your doing missions quests or leveling. End-game is LS exclusive because it involves elite gear but for the most part there is no LS exclusiveness.
Waiting for:EQ-Next, ArcheAge (not so much anymore) Now Playing: N/A Worst MMO: FFXIV Favorite MMO: FFXI
I think content is the far more important issue, for both soloers and groupers. It seems to me that soloers have an inherent disadvantage in this respect: Solo encounters are, by their very nature, less complex than group and raid encounters because there are less characters and abilities involved. It is therefore much harder to create end-game solo content that remains fresh and interesting for very long.
I have to respectfully disagree with you here. If that was the case, single player rpgs would never have evolved. If anything one could argue that adding more people make the encounter for individuals even more simple. For example a player does not have to worry about managing his health because he has a healer backing him up.
Endgame content is stuck on stupid only because the imaginations of the developers are exhausted. Once I pictured a MMO that would let you create a endgame goals for your character to achieve. Say I created a warrior and at character creation I was given the opportunity to pick a milestone goal of say, making a very powerful sword.
Now say my character starts and right away instead of generic fetch quest, npcs would give me clues as to tracking down what is needed to forge this blade or to make it if I'm a crafter. All the while I'm doing a mix of group and solo quest to reach my goal and in the process I'm working toward something that caters to me. Now once I complete that milestone I'm given the choice of starting a new one, the possibilities are only limited to what the player can come up with.
This might be a bad system for people used to instant loot or actual gear that drops from mobs, but RPers would probably enjoy it.
Well when 11 million people are paying for what you would call the creation of an exhausted imagination I wouldn't see any reason to change it drastically if I were a developer. Not saying it's right, it's just the way it is. There are deviations from the mainstream mechanics but they're too few and far inbetween and more often than not done poorly or work in theory and suck in reality. Honestly, there are probably a thousand reasons why most MMOs follow the similar pattern and I can guarantee you people lacking imagination more than likely isn't the biggest obstacle.
Pertaining to the topic: Solo RPGs work because they have more complex mechanics that to put it simply wouldn't work in an MMO (for various reasons i.e. technological limitations, balancing issues, etc.). As for the reason solo RPGs maintain their complexity. Well, you're controlling more than one character for the most part. Even in something like FFXII where the AI can control your other characters, you still have to determine what they do by way of the gambit system and you often times have to manually control them for spefic situations or to change equipment for certain situations, etc.
In an MMO you only control one character, so in order to maintain the complexity you have to add in other characters. This is why raids are designed for parties and not for solo players (other than to maintain the illusion that a boss is "epic", i.e. it takes a lot of people to kill it. When you make it so it's solo, it can ruin the illusion). Sure some solo encounters can be cool and challenging, but the more variables you add in the more complex it gets.
When you say adding more individuals makes an encounter more simple you seem to be referring to it being easier to kill something because you have more numbers. That's simply not the case if you're fighting something that is designed to be killed by a group. Think about it this way. If you're fighting something solo (that's designed to be challenging solo) you only need to figure in what you must do and what can and cannot go right or wrong in order to achieve victory. When you're fighting in a group, against something that's designed for a group you not only have to worry about what can and cannot go right or wrong for you but you also have to depend on 5 other people to do the same and if one of them messes up majorly, game over. So essentially, with a 6 man group, there's six times the chance that something could go wrong whereas solo, there's one.
So yeah, you only have to concentrate on your job in a group but you're also depending on others and they have to depend on you and that's where the challenge comes in.
No doubt solo encounters can be challenging but group encounters have more variables when both are designed to be challenging to each respective playstyle.
With all this said, and I know it's probably too much, I agree in games there's room for soloable dungeons. I mean, in many there already are many that you could attempt solo and succeed and even ones designed to solo. They're there. But it's unrealistic to think that there should be a solo equivalent dungeon for every group dungeon. These games are designed around party content, especially at the end-game and like I described above, for a logical reason.
Originally posted by Beatnik59 this to me is no different than a guilded player. They usually don't interact with anyone outside their self-interested circle either.
The entire purpose of a guild is EXCLUSION. All the people who treat MMORPG's as a game couldn't possibly care less whether they "give away secrets" or do something first, etc. The only reason anyone ever joins a guild is to get stuff that others can't get. The "leaders" use the guild members, and the guild members use their leaders in exactly the same way.
The problem is that there is no heavy lifting involved with any computer game. So the only way to make content exclusive is to continually increase the inconvenience and aggravation involved in getting it. That makes the gameplay transition into less of a community enterprise and more of a cultish, power-based hierarchy.
This eventually makes the playerbase more dependent, but at the same time more insular. The people who are willing to virtually shave their heads will stick with their commitment to the bitter end. But fewer and fewer new people will get suckered in.
Time-out. Games like FFXI which is a true grouping game is not LS (Guild) exclusive at all. You will group with any other LS member when ever your doing missions quests or leveling. End-game is LS exclusive because it involves elite gear but for the most part there is no LS exclusiveness.
I've always thought you joined a guild because they were comprised of people you got along with. If you think the purpose of a guild is to exclude people you need to readjust your mindset and join a guild for the friendship and stop paying attention to these "elite" guilds. Toddze got it right here.
Why do you want the top rewards? You never group and presumably don’t belong to a guild as that would be too much hassle. You are not a ‘hardcore’ player so you don’t have time to talk to anyone. So what are you going to do if you get these rewards, take a screenie and make it your desktop image?
The value of the top rewards is not the items, but that we, our group, our raid, our guild, our realm achieved them! This is the concept you soloers have such a hard time getting your head around, they are a badge of our group accomplishment. Long live grouping!
You guys are acting as if we soloers stop you from grouping...
I'm kind of a soloer and I don't see how we 'hurt the community'. All in all I think we make it more intresting than if there was only closed isolated groups of people that won't talk to anyone out of their guild... <- yes thats the guild spirit I very often see in mmo's.
I'd rather be free to do as I please and group sometimes with other 'loners' as we please.
Well I am glad that at least the leveling process can be done without beeing forced to group in modern mmo's for the most part.
To be fair I think a soloer shouldn't be able to get quite as good gear... but I think it would be fair enough if a soloer that investing a bit more time (+30% time ) could get gear that is 95% as good as what groupers get.
You guys are acting as if we soloers stop you from grouping... I'm kind of a soloer and I don't see how we 'hurt the community'. All in all I think we make it more intresting than if there was only closed isolated groups of people that won't talk to anyone out of their guild... <- yes thats the guild spirit I very often see in mmo's. I'd rather be free to do as I please and group sometimes with other 'loners' as we please. Well I am glad that at least the leveling process can be done without beeing forced to group in modern mmo's for the most part. To be fair I think a soloer shouldn't be able to get quite as good gear... but I think it would be fair enough if a soloer that investing a bit more time (+30% time ) could get gear that is 95% as good as what groupers get.
Groupers don't want to be able to group. They want a good grouping game. Changing the rules so you can solo, changes the rules for the grouper too.
Formal groups and raids are not the only way people socialize in these games, nor is it the only way to be a contributing member of the community.
Besides buying and selling goods, please explain how solo play does anything positive for an online multiplayer community.
Why do anyone needs to explain that? They are a segment, a LARGE segment, of the customers. Enough said.
And I suppose if there was a LARGE segment of players that were shuffling kiddy porn through the game, that would be ok too, right? Just because alot of players do something (which they have been unfortunately conditioned into) doesn't make it right. It needs to be improved, and your casual dismissal of the subject just makes things worse.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
Originally posted by Senadina I'm not playing to create an online community. I am playing to have fun. Yes, I am selfish that way but, hey, it's MY fifteen dollars.And what I hate about grouping is having to play my character to please others. If I don't have the optimum build for a tank( or whatever class), and the best gear, the raid group doesn't want me. Well, I am NOT creating my toon so someone else can tell me how to play it. And THAT is one of my main reasons for prefering to solo. And please don't tell me to play a single player game. I like MMO's because they feel like living worlds, they theoretically have no end, they get updates and expansions, they have crafting and chat. No single player game feels the same.
Very well said, Senadina.
-- Whammy - a 64x64 miniRPG - RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right? - FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
Formal groups and raids are not the only way people socialize in these games, nor is it the only way to be a contributing member of the community.
Besides buying and selling goods, please explain how solo play does anything positive for an online multiplayer community.
Why do anyone needs to explain that? They are a segment, a LARGE segment, of the customers. Enough said.
And I suppose if there was a LARGE segment of players that were shuffling kiddy porn through the game, that would be ok too, right? Just because alot of players do something (which they have been unfortunately conditioned into) doesn't make it right. It needs to be improved, and your casual dismissal of the subject just makes things worse.
LOL .. it is ridiculous to compare something illegal to a preference of people how to have fun.
Remember that they are CUSTOMERS using an ENTERTAINMENT service and they have no obligation to do anything "positive" for whatever community.
By this definition I should be happy about gankers and griefers then. They pay their money, what they do in game is up to them.
I have seen this so many times before, putting money over the counter does not entitle you to anything! You are not buying a book or a solo game here, once other people are involved this carte blanc entitlement you seem to think you have is nonsense.
When you join a MMO you join a online community, you may not like this fact, it may get in the way of what you think is ‘fun’. But just like in real life you need to learn to work with other people and stop acting like the Lone Wolf who never grew up.
And I suppose if there was a LARGE segment of players that were shuffling kiddy porn through the game, that would be ok too, right? Just because alot of players do something (which they have been unfortunately conditioned into) doesn't make it right. It needs to be improved, and your casual dismissal of the subject just makes things worse.
Kiddie porn is illegal. Nobody is talking about doing anything illegal. This is just more of the way that many groupers try to blur the real argument so they don't have to address the real issue: they want exclusve rewards for their particular kind of play. That's great. There's all kinds of games on the market that deliver that to you. What some of us casuals and soloers want is a game that does NOT deliver exclusively superior content to groupers or hardcore players. Is that all right with you?
By this definition I should be happy about gankers and griefers then. They pay their money, what they do in game is up to them. I have seen this so many times before, putting money over the counter does not entitle you to anything! You are not buying a book or a solo game here, once other people are involved this carte blanc entitlement you seem to think you have is nonsense. When you join a MMO you join a online community, you may not like this fact, it may get in the way of what you think is ‘fun’. But just like in real life you need to learn to work with other people and stop acting like the Lone Wolf who never grew up.
Insulting people who are just asking for a developer or two to create a game or two that don't exclusively reward hardcore/groupers is only necessary if you feel threatened or angry about the issue. Nobody is asking anyone for anything illegal or unprofitable, just an MMO game where casuals and soloers can look forward to **eventually** sharing in the top content/rewards of the game.
If you don't like the game, don't play it - but why are you arguing against it even being made, or tried? We don't mind if you have your games where your playstyle is exclusively rewarded - heck, we aren't even asking that our playstyle be exclusively rewarded; we just want to **eventually** have access to equal rewards - and others here are attempting to equate that with distributing child porn and griefing.
Seriously, if casuals and soloers asking for an MMOG or two where they can eventually share in top rewards (even if other playstyles get it long before them) is equitable in your mind to distributing child porn or griefing, and you feel the need to insult and ridicule them, I suggest that you, and those like you, are the ones with the psychological issues.
IMO, you have too much of your identity and/or self esteem tied up in MMOGs if you feel the need to insult and ridicule others for advocating for a game that allows casuals and soloers to eventually gain top rewards. What difference could it possibly make to you if such a game is made, and casuals and soloers play it?
The problem with MMOGs is that you can't please everyone, and the MM part is saying that you are trying to.
There are people who want the following (and more!):
Realism
Better Graphics
Worse Graphics
Full PvP
Only PvE
Full PvP Looting
No PvP Looting
Some PvP Looting
PvP Looting with Insurance on Items
More Story driven content!
Less Story driven content!
And so, Soloable content is added to the list, and suddenly, the people who want "mostly group content, or only group content!" argue against it, which is to be expected when considering the MMOG community, and, most importantly, the MM part.
Just look at driving on the road, billions of people do it every day.
I prefer my driving like a race, because travel, in my opinion, is wasted time. I could be AT work right now, working! Being Paid! But instead I'm in my car... And so, I tend to speed a little, and get frustrated when someone else has their opinion of "I'm going to go 50km/h EVERYWHERE." and subsequently gets me stuck at a red light, while they plod on through (or alternatively, because they decided to stop at the lights during a yellow, and we sit there for a full few seconds while it goes red)
I could get passionate about my driving style, and argue against everyone else's, but there's no where to vent.
For my MMOG playing style, however, there is a place to vent, so people do, and argue vehemently against other people's styles that they disagree with.
Grump.
Grump.
Shower-time.
I am playing EVE and it's alright... level V skills are a bit much.
Comments
They don't participate to create a good, social community... they're dead weight in that sense. The more of those players are on a server, the worse the community will become because of their... unwillingness to participate.
They don't participate to create a good, social community... they're dead weight in that sense. The more of those players are on a server, the worse the community will become because of their... unwillingness to participate.
I guess I can buy into that.
On a side note lets just say soloers could solo all their gear, besides boring, how fun would it be to play a game where every class would be wearing the exact same gear. Their would be no variations because everyone could solo the best gear. There would have to be a dye system in place but I would hope that solo'er are not THAT shallow to where dye would make them feel all the better.
Edit: or I guess you could have an extremly low drop rate on the gear but either way I would have to pass, because the only factor involved is time.
Waiting for:EQ-Next, ArcheAge (not so much anymore)
Now Playing: N/A
Worst MMO: FFXIV
Favorite MMO: FFXI
They don't participate to create a good, social community... they're dead weight in that sense. The more of those players are on a server, the worse the community will become because of their... unwillingness to participate.
this to me is no different than a guilded player. They usually don't interact with anyone outside their self-interested circle either.
__________________________
"Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
--Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
--Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
--Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
The entire purpose of a guild is EXCLUSION. All the people who treat MMORPG's as a game couldn't possibly care less whether they "give away secrets" or do something first, etc. The only reason anyone ever joins a guild is to get stuff that others can't get. The "leaders" use the guild members, and the guild members use their leaders in exactly the same way.
The problem is that there is no heavy lifting involved with any computer game. So the only way to make content exclusive is to continually increase the inconvenience and aggravation involved in getting it. That makes the gameplay transition into less of a community enterprise and more of a cultish, power-based hierarchy.
This eventually makes the playerbase more dependent, but at the same time more insular. The people who are willing to virtually shave their heads will stick with their commitment to the bitter end. But fewer and fewer new people will get suckered in.
The entire purpose of a guild is EXCLUSION. All the people who treat MMORPG's as a game couldn't possibly care less whether they "give away secrets" or do something first, etc. The only reason anyone ever joins a guild is to get stuff that others can't get. The "leaders" use the guild members, and the guild members use their leaders in exactly the same way.
The problem is that there is no heavy lifting involved with any computer game. So the only way to make content exclusive is to continually increase the inconvenience and aggravation involved in getting it. That makes the gameplay transition into less of a community enterprise and more of a cultish, power-based hierarchy.
This eventually makes the playerbase more dependent, but at the same time more insular. The people who are willing to virtually shave their heads will stick with their commitment to the bitter end. But fewer and fewer new people will get suckered in.
I agree. And that is why I believe that the group mechanic alone is not going to create sociability any more than solo-based games will decrease sociability.
__________________________
"Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
--Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
--Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
--Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
They don't participate to create a good, social community... they're dead weight in that sense. The more of those players are on a server, the worse the community will become because of their... unwillingness to participate.
this to me is no different than a guilded player. They usually don't interact with anyone outside their self-interested circle either.
Exactly! Players in a guild are more likely to only have time to help those within the guild and only reach out to others outside the guild when it's deemed useful, like recruiting. Soloist on the other hand are more likely to help others or throw a bone to a lowbie. That's because they don't have the ties associated with players in a guild. Furthermore, small tightly knit guilds with friends and family within a guild may not allow many "outsiders" in for fear of them bringing in issues of behavior and having to addressing them.
I think you get more freeloaders from players that enjoy grouping together that may not pull their weight, than say a soloist who more than likely knows the ins and outs of his character, if simply from the experience of soloing so much. To me these guys are a lot more helpful/useful to a community. It would seem they would be easier to transition into an occasional group than players who've always depended on groups to pull them through.
As pointed out in the italics above, anyone can argue the points of what type of character (soloist/grouper) seem to be more helpful to a community. I for the record enjoy grouping when done correctly, as seen in FFXI. There, everyone was bringing something to the table and skills could be linked to make grinding in groups faster.
But more and more companies are not offering enough dynamics to warrant the hassle of weeding out players who get it and those who do. So now I think most players start a new game with a clear definition of what they are going to get accomplished and if they have to group on the way to do it, most would not mind. But keeping a group of people together for more than 15 to 20 minutes for a group quest or a lower level dungeon run are not needed to have a thriving, healthy community.
"Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas."
Usually the people in games who never group dont function too well in groups. The healer classes that solo cant keep people alive because they never healer other people so they arent used to it, the tank classes cant keep mobs off other characters because they never have that problem soloing. In soloing its just you vs the mob, theres no teamwork involved so they arent that great at teamwork. I dont have problem with soloing, its not exactly my style but I dont endlessly bash people who want to solo but saying people that groupers are "freeloaders" and soloers know their class better so they function more efficiently is just ignorant.
If your typically a freeloader than groups wont do too well with you and none of your groups will be able to get anything done. Also people will notice how you play. Thats where the community comes in play, if someone is ninja looting or whining/yelling at other people then he gains a reputation for that. In vanguard I had someone ask if he could go afk and autofollow for a few mins. Im a pretty friendly person and so was everyone in the group so we said ok. He went afk for 2 hours (he had a good friend in group so we couldnt really just kick him from it). He recieved free xp and loot for 2 hours of everyone elses expense. You know what I did? I stayed away from him at all times after that.
Usually the people in games who never group dont function too well in groups. The healer classes that solo cant keep people alive because they never healer other people so they arent used to it, the tank classes cant keep mobs off other characters because they never have that problem soloing. In soloing its just you vs the mob, theres no teamwork involved so they arent that great at teamwork. I dont have problem with soloing, its not exactly my style but I dont endlessly bash people who want to solo but saying people that groupers are "freeloaders" and soloers know their class better so they function more efficiently is just ignorant.
If your typically a freeloader than groups wont do too well with you and none of your groups will be able to get anything done. Also people will notice how you play. Thats where the community comes in play, if someone is ninja looting or whining/yelling at other people then he gains a reputation for that. In vanguard I had someone ask if he could go afk and autofollow for a few mins. Im a pretty friendly person and so was everyone in the group so we said ok. He went afk for 2 hours (he had a good friend in group so we couldnt really just kick him from it). He recieved free xp and loot for 2 hours of everyone elses expense. You know what I did? I stayed away from him at all times after that.
The statement I made in italics only served as an example of what some others may use as a counter argument if attacked on the grounds of if soloist are helpful to the community or not. By no means what this anything I wish to debate as it was not the focus of my point......please read the paragraph that follows it.
My point is that developers are not putting in dynamics to make grouping as enjoyable as it can be, hence my mention of enjoying FFXI's combat system. When they shift focus from only using group play as a way to just throw players together to something more deep and intertwined like linking skills and adding reasons to be in a group other than killing things faster, then we can talk about what players really expect from group dynamics and what would make them more appealing to soloists.
"Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas."
My only objection to soloers having access to the same loot as groupers has nothing to do with wanting to feel superior, nor do i care a bit when I see others strutting around in gear better than mine. I just have this old-fashioned idea about RPGs that creatures actually drop loot (rather than tokens and badges) and the more powerful the creature the more powerful the loot. It therefore follows that you would need to team up with other players in order to overcome the most powerful guardians and acquire the best loot.
I don't demand that everyone share this view of MMORPGs, there is room in the genre for lots of different styles of game. It would be nice though to move the discussion beyond 'groupers just want to keep the best loot for themselves', 'soloers are just anti-social and should stick to single player games' etc.
In any event the gear side of things is kind of a red herring because it is just not that important. Everyone likes receiving new items but if it becomes your main reason to play then you really need to get some fresh air.
I think content is the far more important issue, for both soloers and groupers. It seems to me that soloers have an inherent disadvantage in this respect: Solo encounters are, by their very nature, less complex than group and raid encounters because there are less characters and abilities involved. It is therefore much harder to create end-game solo content that remains fresh and interesting for very long.
Oh boy, another one of these threads...Why must we rehash the same thing that has been stated over the past week in two or three other identical threads? Ok, here's a suggestion, maybe play different games then you've been playing. Obviously you're dissatisfied with the MMOs you've played so far. Try some new ones, keep looking and stop whining. Hey, I'm not happy with what's been released currently either, but I'm not going to whine about it and blame it on other players (they didn't create the game, the developers made the game the way it was and you either subscribe, or you don't, it's your choice).
I mean c'mon man! Most MMOs today piss me off so I only focus on certain ones I like. Currently, I'm waiting for FFXIV since I think it will be my style, just like FFXI was. Stop bitching and play the games you like!! Stop trying to change the whole damn genre. I've got one for you. Try SW:TOR when it comes out. It sounds very solo friendly from its description, you might just like it, or you may continue to cry about the whole genre, I don't know. lol for real!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I have to respectfully disagree with you here. If that was the case, single player rpgs would never have evolved. If anything one could argue that adding more people make the encounter for individuals even more simple. For example a player does not have to worry about managing his health because he has a healer backing him up.
Endgame content is stuck on stupid only because the imaginations of the developers are exhausted. Once I pictured a MMO that would let you create a endgame goals for your character to achieve. Say I created a warrior and at character creation I was given the opportunity to pick a milestone goal of say, making a very powerful sword.
Now say my character starts and right away instead of generic fetch quest, npcs would give me clues as to tracking down what is needed to forge this blade or to make it if I'm a crafter. All the while I'm doing a mix of group and solo quest to reach my goal and in the process I'm working toward something that caters to me. Now once I complete that milestone I'm given the choice of starting a new one, the possibilities are only limited to what the player can come up with.
This might be a bad system for people used to instant loot or actual gear that drops from mobs, but RPers would probably enjoy it.
"Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas."
The entire purpose of a guild is EXCLUSION. All the people who treat MMORPG's as a game couldn't possibly care less whether they "give away secrets" or do something first, etc. The only reason anyone ever joins a guild is to get stuff that others can't get. The "leaders" use the guild members, and the guild members use their leaders in exactly the same way.
The problem is that there is no heavy lifting involved with any computer game. So the only way to make content exclusive is to continually increase the inconvenience and aggravation involved in getting it. That makes the gameplay transition into less of a community enterprise and more of a cultish, power-based hierarchy.
This eventually makes the playerbase more dependent, but at the same time more insular. The people who are willing to virtually shave their heads will stick with their commitment to the bitter end. But fewer and fewer new people will get suckered in.
Time-out. Games like FFXI which is a true grouping game is not LS (Guild) exclusive at all. You will group with any other LS member when ever your doing missions quests or leveling. End-game is LS exclusive because it involves elite gear but for the most part there is no LS exclusiveness.
Waiting for:EQ-Next, ArcheAge (not so much anymore)
Now Playing: N/A
Worst MMO: FFXIV
Favorite MMO: FFXI
I have to respectfully disagree with you here. If that was the case, single player rpgs would never have evolved. If anything one could argue that adding more people make the encounter for individuals even more simple. For example a player does not have to worry about managing his health because he has a healer backing him up.
Endgame content is stuck on stupid only because the imaginations of the developers are exhausted. Once I pictured a MMO that would let you create a endgame goals for your character to achieve. Say I created a warrior and at character creation I was given the opportunity to pick a milestone goal of say, making a very powerful sword.
Now say my character starts and right away instead of generic fetch quest, npcs would give me clues as to tracking down what is needed to forge this blade or to make it if I'm a crafter. All the while I'm doing a mix of group and solo quest to reach my goal and in the process I'm working toward something that caters to me. Now once I complete that milestone I'm given the choice of starting a new one, the possibilities are only limited to what the player can come up with.
This might be a bad system for people used to instant loot or actual gear that drops from mobs, but RPers would probably enjoy it.
Well when 11 million people are paying for what you would call the creation of an exhausted imagination I wouldn't see any reason to change it drastically if I were a developer. Not saying it's right, it's just the way it is. There are deviations from the mainstream mechanics but they're too few and far inbetween and more often than not done poorly or work in theory and suck in reality. Honestly, there are probably a thousand reasons why most MMOs follow the similar pattern and I can guarantee you people lacking imagination more than likely isn't the biggest obstacle.
Pertaining to the topic: Solo RPGs work because they have more complex mechanics that to put it simply wouldn't work in an MMO (for various reasons i.e. technological limitations, balancing issues, etc.). As for the reason solo RPGs maintain their complexity. Well, you're controlling more than one character for the most part. Even in something like FFXII where the AI can control your other characters, you still have to determine what they do by way of the gambit system and you often times have to manually control them for spefic situations or to change equipment for certain situations, etc.
In an MMO you only control one character, so in order to maintain the complexity you have to add in other characters. This is why raids are designed for parties and not for solo players (other than to maintain the illusion that a boss is "epic", i.e. it takes a lot of people to kill it. When you make it so it's solo, it can ruin the illusion). Sure some solo encounters can be cool and challenging, but the more variables you add in the more complex it gets.
When you say adding more individuals makes an encounter more simple you seem to be referring to it being easier to kill something because you have more numbers. That's simply not the case if you're fighting something that is designed to be killed by a group. Think about it this way. If you're fighting something solo (that's designed to be challenging solo) you only need to figure in what you must do and what can and cannot go right or wrong in order to achieve victory. When you're fighting in a group, against something that's designed for a group you not only have to worry about what can and cannot go right or wrong for you but you also have to depend on 5 other people to do the same and if one of them messes up majorly, game over. So essentially, with a 6 man group, there's six times the chance that something could go wrong whereas solo, there's one.
So yeah, you only have to concentrate on your job in a group but you're also depending on others and they have to depend on you and that's where the challenge comes in.
No doubt solo encounters can be challenging but group encounters have more variables when both are designed to be challenging to each respective playstyle.
With all this said, and I know it's probably too much, I agree in games there's room for soloable dungeons. I mean, in many there already are many that you could attempt solo and succeed and even ones designed to solo. They're there. But it's unrealistic to think that there should be a solo equivalent dungeon for every group dungeon. These games are designed around party content, especially at the end-game and like I described above, for a logical reason.
The entire purpose of a guild is EXCLUSION. All the people who treat MMORPG's as a game couldn't possibly care less whether they "give away secrets" or do something first, etc. The only reason anyone ever joins a guild is to get stuff that others can't get. The "leaders" use the guild members, and the guild members use their leaders in exactly the same way.
The problem is that there is no heavy lifting involved with any computer game. So the only way to make content exclusive is to continually increase the inconvenience and aggravation involved in getting it. That makes the gameplay transition into less of a community enterprise and more of a cultish, power-based hierarchy.
This eventually makes the playerbase more dependent, but at the same time more insular. The people who are willing to virtually shave their heads will stick with their commitment to the bitter end. But fewer and fewer new people will get suckered in.
Time-out. Games like FFXI which is a true grouping game is not LS (Guild) exclusive at all. You will group with any other LS member when ever your doing missions quests or leveling. End-game is LS exclusive because it involves elite gear but for the most part there is no LS exclusiveness.
I've always thought you joined a guild because they were comprised of people you got along with. If you think the purpose of a guild is to exclude people you need to readjust your mindset and join a guild for the friendship and stop paying attention to these "elite" guilds. Toddze got it right here.
Why do you want the top rewards? You never group and presumably don’t belong to a guild as that would be too much hassle. You are not a ‘hardcore’ player so you don’t have time to talk to anyone. So what are you going to do if you get these rewards, take a screenie and make it your desktop image?
The value of the top rewards is not the items, but that we, our group, our raid, our guild, our realm achieved them! This is the concept you soloers have such a hard time getting your head around, they are a badge of our group accomplishment. Long live grouping!
You guys are acting as if we soloers stop you from grouping...
I'm kind of a soloer and I don't see how we 'hurt the community'. All in all I think we make it more intresting than if there was only closed isolated groups of people that won't talk to anyone out of their guild... <- yes thats the guild spirit I very often see in mmo's.
I'd rather be free to do as I please and group sometimes with other 'loners' as we please.
Well I am glad that at least the leveling process can be done without beeing forced to group in modern mmo's for the most part.
To be fair I think a soloer shouldn't be able to get quite as good gear... but I think it would be fair enough if a soloer that investing a bit more time (+30% time ) could get gear that is 95% as good as what groupers get.
Groupers don't want to be able to group. They want a good grouping game. Changing the rules so you can solo, changes the rules for the grouper too.
Besides buying and selling goods, please explain how solo play does anything positive for an online multiplayer community.
Why do anyone needs to explain that? They are a segment, a LARGE segment, of the customers. Enough said.
Besides buying and selling goods, please explain how solo play does anything positive for an online multiplayer community.
Why do anyone needs to explain that? They are a segment, a LARGE segment, of the customers. Enough said.
And I suppose if there was a LARGE segment of players that were shuffling kiddy porn through the game, that would be ok too, right? Just because alot of players do something (which they have been unfortunately conditioned into) doesn't make it right. It needs to be improved, and your casual dismissal of the subject just makes things worse.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
Very well said, Senadina.
- RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right?
- FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
Besides buying and selling goods, please explain how solo play does anything positive for an online multiplayer community.
Why do anyone needs to explain that? They are a segment, a LARGE segment, of the customers. Enough said.
And I suppose if there was a LARGE segment of players that were shuffling kiddy porn through the game, that would be ok too, right? Just because alot of players do something (which they have been unfortunately conditioned into) doesn't make it right. It needs to be improved, and your casual dismissal of the subject just makes things worse.
LOL .. it is ridiculous to compare something illegal to a preference of people how to have fun.
Remember that they are CUSTOMERS using an ENTERTAINMENT service and they have no obligation to do anything "positive" for whatever community.
By this definition I should be happy about gankers and griefers then. They pay their money, what they do in game is up to them.
I have seen this so many times before, putting money over the counter does not entitle you to anything! You are not buying a book or a solo game here, once other people are involved this carte blanc entitlement you seem to think you have is nonsense.
When you join a MMO you join a online community, you may not like this fact, it may get in the way of what you think is ‘fun’. But just like in real life you need to learn to work with other people and stop acting like the Lone Wolf who never grew up.
Kiddie porn is illegal. Nobody is talking about doing anything illegal. This is just more of the way that many groupers try to blur the real argument so they don't have to address the real issue: they want exclusve rewards for their particular kind of play. That's great. There's all kinds of games on the market that deliver that to you. What some of us casuals and soloers want is a game that does NOT deliver exclusively superior content to groupers or hardcore players. Is that all right with you?
Insulting people who are just asking for a developer or two to create a game or two that don't exclusively reward hardcore/groupers is only necessary if you feel threatened or angry about the issue. Nobody is asking anyone for anything illegal or unprofitable, just an MMO game where casuals and soloers can look forward to **eventually** sharing in the top content/rewards of the game.
If you don't like the game, don't play it - but why are you arguing against it even being made, or tried? We don't mind if you have your games where your playstyle is exclusively rewarded - heck, we aren't even asking that our playstyle be exclusively rewarded; we just want to **eventually** have access to equal rewards - and others here are attempting to equate that with distributing child porn and griefing.
Seriously, if casuals and soloers asking for an MMOG or two where they can eventually share in top rewards (even if other playstyles get it long before them) is equitable in your mind to distributing child porn or griefing, and you feel the need to insult and ridicule them, I suggest that you, and those like you, are the ones with the psychological issues.
IMO, you have too much of your identity and/or self esteem tied up in MMOGs if you feel the need to insult and ridicule others for advocating for a game that allows casuals and soloers to eventually gain top rewards. What difference could it possibly make to you if such a game is made, and casuals and soloers play it?
The problem with MMOGs is that you can't please everyone, and the MM part is saying that you are trying to.
There are people who want the following (and more!):
Realism
Better Graphics
Worse Graphics
Full PvP
Only PvE
Full PvP Looting
No PvP Looting
Some PvP Looting
PvP Looting with Insurance on Items
More Story driven content!
Less Story driven content!
And so, Soloable content is added to the list, and suddenly, the people who want "mostly group content, or only group content!" argue against it, which is to be expected when considering the MMOG community, and, most importantly, the MM part.
Just look at driving on the road, billions of people do it every day.
I prefer my driving like a race, because travel, in my opinion, is wasted time. I could be AT work right now, working! Being Paid! But instead I'm in my car... And so, I tend to speed a little, and get frustrated when someone else has their opinion of "I'm going to go 50km/h EVERYWHERE." and subsequently gets me stuck at a red light, while they plod on through (or alternatively, because they decided to stop at the lights during a yellow, and we sit there for a full few seconds while it goes red)
I could get passionate about my driving style, and argue against everyone else's, but there's no where to vent.
For my MMOG playing style, however, there is a place to vent, so people do, and argue vehemently against other people's styles that they disagree with.
Grump.
Grump.
Shower-time.
I am playing EVE and it's alright... level V skills are a bit much.
You all need to learn to spell.