The words are irrelavent, it's the meaning they convey. For intinstance calling something 'gay' or 'ghey' is offensive simply because its a word that describes a group of people due to their sexual preference. To then use it in a refernce to 'lame or stupid' is derogatory to those people, obviously. When its used in the 'dudue that's gay' it isn't in the happy sense is it.
The word 'niger' is offence for the same reason, it's to do with the conotation of the word. While it is true that words and language evolve and their original meanings change it is also true that while a majority of people still see the word as offensive it reamins so.
----- The person who is certain, and who claims divine warrant for his certainty, belongs now to the infancy of our species.
I think that the whole 'gay' problem may just solve itself. Eventually the new definition (lame/boring) will be mainstream enough that people will forget it ever meant homosexual. Some may find this a perversion of the word rather than an evolution of it, but they'll get over it.
-- Whammy - a 64x64 miniRPG - RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right? - FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
It's always fun seeing self-proclaimed "mature adults" reveal their binary view to the world. Life isn't rendered in black and whit. Other shades lay inbetween....sing with me!
First of all, I take the terms "maturity" and "immaturity" as neither insults nor compliments. Assuming that everyone must adhere to some subjective test of wisdom is, ironically, a binary viewpoint itself.
And while life in general isn't rendered in black and white, MMO playerbases do not represent a truly random cross-section of such. For reasons that are probably fathomable, MMO playerbases are fractured (with perhaps slightly blurred lines of distinction) into those who are there to play and cooperate, and those who are there to dominate and compete.
It imposes an environment that surpasses even the hostility encountered in the real world.
I have a question for all those of you who defend the use of the word 'gay' as a pejorative (that means 'bad word'). Have you ever had a political movement, or several, focused on removing rights from you because of something you have no power to change, nor would want to change because it is a bedrock of your personality and identity? I'm guessing no. Black people have had this (c.f. slavery, Jim Crow laws, Ku Klux Clan). LGBT people still do (c.f. Proposition 8 in California, Fred Phelps and associates, etc.).
Proposition 8? are you high?
This is one of those things that people toss out there so they can focus on some narrow thing. As opposed to the entire thing...
The US is supposed to be based on a Democratic Republic. The concept of "majority rule" and gay marriage whether you support it or not.. Was put to a vote and failed. The courts of california over-ruled the voters (goes directly against the system) and Proposition 8 was the voters saying "oh no you don't".
This is about system... If you want to pass gay marriage then like anything else you go out and convince people to vote for it. You don't sideline the system or do an end run to get around how things work.
In effect it would have been the same thing as filing a lawsuit because Obama was elected president. Then having the court toss out his election... Proposition 8 only existed because the system had been VIOLATED.
I don't care what someone does... what they believe etc
What I do care about is "system" and the moment you do an end run around it.... You have opened the door so that the next time the end run might not be in your favor.
I'm from VT... guess what? It was the first stae in the US to pass "gay marriage" by the system instead of by the court. Even tho it was through a veto over-ride it was still done within the system.
The solution to much of anything is to get people to identify and relate to your point of view and gain support for your cause.
Oh and yes I'm a "white male" in a mixed race family but they don't hold it against me... imagine that.
Ever heard of a phrase " The Tyranny of the Majority"? It's why so many laws passed by voters wind up in the Supreme Court. Because the majority can be mighty bigoted. And the majority has no problem denying others their constitutional rights. If the majority ruled, African-Americans would still be sitting at the back of the bus.
There's a lot of irony in this article from Sanya.
She's quick to point out that she condemns racial and sexual insults and sterotypes... then she proceeds to sterotype MMO gamers by acting shocked that they object to people using certain deragotory words and report bugs without expecting any compensation. Too bad MMO players aren't a protected class, then Sanya would now be fired and blacklisted in the community.
Sanya, sterotyping people is a bad thing to do, even if your government hasn't passed laws against it. Grow up.
Sanya, sterotyping people is a bad thing to do, even if your government hasn't passed laws against it. Grow up.
Stereotyping individuals of a particular people could be objectively called a self-defeating behavior. Stereotyping an entire group of people is not necessarily subject to the same criticism and could be as simple as, "Kenyans, in general, are better long distance runners." Should you treat every Kenyan you meet as a long distance runner? Probably not, but knowing that you might want to go to Kenya to find a long distance runner is not entirely useless.
Also, being surprised by the behavior of individuals in the face of a group stereotype is actually the inverse of prejudice and bigotry.
I agree with your sentiment but think you're rather out there trying to compare saying "Nividia is gay" to being a bigoted comment. Pending on where you live it gets used quite commonly and is in no way meant towards flaming or thinking ill of homosexuals. Hell, one of my best friends at work is a lesbian and she uses that phrase about things more than just about anyone else I know (beats it to death actually-can be very annoying). It's a context thing least with people I know. Most can decipher or read between the lines to tell when you mean it in a bigoted, harmful sentiment or when you're just using it as a catchphrase. I get mmo chat isn't the real world but I haven't run across anyone in years regardless of whether they're heterosexual or homosexual that gets up in arms over that phrase.
Again, I get your basic premise and I know you were just giving an example but compared to the shit that tends to go on even in LotR especially if you're on the global channels getting worked up over that seems like nonsense to me. Overall though it was a nice read. Not so sure you would think things have changed all that much though if you were in the global channels. Its about a half step away from being Barrens chat in my opinion.
...and I'm not going to sift back through these posts again but to the poster that said Southpark made this a common, acceptable term? Huh? It had nothing to do with that show. If it had to do with anything it was people being more open about talking about homosexuality and not treating it like such a taboo subject and realizing that sexual preference has no bearing on your own life or the realization that associating with those that might happen to be homosexual will in no way make you a homosexual yourself and like yourself they prefer to be treated like a fellow human being - not like a glass menagerie or a dirty sock.
1. For god's sake mmo gamers, enough with the analogies. They're unnecessary and your comparisons are terrible, dissimilar, and illogical.
2. To posters feeling the need to state how f2p really isn't f2p: Players understand the concept. You aren't privy to some secret the rest are missing. You're embarrassing yourself.
3. Yes, Cpt. Obvious, we're not industry experts. Now run along and let the big people use the forums for their purpose.
Anyone else notice this seems to be the only "article" written by Sanya where she hasn't come in the thread to respond, comment, or "clarify" in response to any posts?
I've read this entire thread and have not been surprised at Ms. Weathers cowardice to respond and support her despicable entry. Its a progressive and sickeningly liberal blame america write up. Placing a picture of Don Imus in a puff piece about a benign phrase from a 15yr old in a game is preposterous. Ms. Weathers is also clearly overly sensitive and disrespectful of anyones viewpoint beyond her own. You should create a site for your soabox of lunacy, madam.
This is a gaming site. Which should be used to discuss aspects of gaming. This social and political garbage is best discussed at more suitable places. My suggestion would be whatever hate america website she subscibes to currently. Zorvan, you're completely right on with your perception. Also, I agree with the majority of opinion and response you've made here.
Its beyond time we move on and stop with all this hatred. We in america have defeated the cultural inequities of the past. We are NOT 'african-american, hispanic-american, white-american'. If you're born here(or leagally immigrate) in this country you are afforded the same open ceiling and open floor within the law. Its just that simple. You're american!! We need to realize this bigotry and cultural(political in reality) sniping only makes the reasonable thinking majority question how long will the blame game keep going.
This{US} is the greatest country in the world. The more effort and harder you work is what determines your outcome. Ask President Obama. Ask the men and women of the supreme court. Ask coaches and owners in all major sports leagues. Doctors, lawyers, and professors of logical thinking. It is not easy, nor should be. There needs to be no standard for one and all. The kind of nanny state socialism creates and sustains is mediocrity at best. You'll never be any higher or lower than your neighbor(this is a whole other convo in itself). The bars are set by the government and all you get is medial sustenance. Might as well burn a number in your forehead cause thats about all you are. Nothing makes you any different than the person next door.
I think this piece was also written to start contoversy and works towards the site definition of 'trolling'. It should be romoved and if she is employed/compensated in any way it should be witheld and reprimanded strongly. Several viewpoints on gaming is useful here, but bringing in an unchallenged viewpoint by a substantial writer on the header box is bias and creates contempt. This isnt the place to spout your social initiatives and standards Ms. Weathers, please take it somewhere that this would seem appropriate.
Really, Demonshank? That's what you got out of the article and the resulting responses? All I see is a bunch of people expressing their ideas about prejudice and how it factors into life (which I agree is a separation from how it specifically applies to MMOGs, but you can't blame the posters for that. They do this mainly to either deflect attention from weak arguments or to try to draw a more widespread impact from a simple word that is being used in a derogatory way (perhaps I am guilt of both myself). This is not an "easy" subject, and it's going to elicit a lot of different responses, some sophomoric, some quite profound. I'm sure this isn't everyone's cup of tea, and doesn't seem to be yours, but it IS an aspect of online gaming, and I believe it does have merit. There are some good ideas being bandied about here. You're obviously less comfortable with this kind of chatter than with, let's say, the most optimum build for a paladin in DDO. That's fine, I'm sure you can find what you're looking for elsewhere. I, for one, find discussions like this to be rare gems in otherwise very straightforward (and often mathematical) strategy guides on how to play the game better. Sure, they're messier, but they're also more filling.
I've read this entire thread and have not been surprised at Ms. Weathers cowardice to respond and support her despicable entry. Its a progressive and sickeningly liberal blame america write up. Placing a picture of Don Imus in a puff piece about a benign phrase from a 15yr old in a game is preposterous. Ms. Weathers is also clearly overly sensitive and disrespectful of anyones viewpoint beyond her own. You should create a site for your soabox of lunacy, madam....
Uh okay, while I think some of the examples she gave far as the Nividia thing and "throws like a girl" comments are short sighted and rather preposterous to deem in the same mix as her other example of someone using the n-word or, for example, a truly bigoted action such as knowingly using the f-word towards someone you know is a homosexual; I'm not sure we have to go Bill O'Reilley on her.
Heh...she had a good point just some ill advised comparisons she used for emphasis. People grow up in different environments. I guess in hers that's all deemed "evil, cruel, uneducated and reeking of bigotry". In mine, its a part of life and phrases people use with no ill will meant towards any race, gender, or personal sexual orientation and are used by people I associate with of different races, genders, and sexual orientations.
1. For god's sake mmo gamers, enough with the analogies. They're unnecessary and your comparisons are terrible, dissimilar, and illogical.
2. To posters feeling the need to state how f2p really isn't f2p: Players understand the concept. You aren't privy to some secret the rest are missing. You're embarrassing yourself.
3. Yes, Cpt. Obvious, we're not industry experts. Now run along and let the big people use the forums for their purpose.
It is strange that the N word received such imediate outcry and yet the term GAY. There was a picture i remember seeing on the internet long time ago.
anonymitiy + internet = F**kt**d.
The same person that would call someone else a Nword wouldnt dream of using it outside in the real world, likewise they probbly wouldnt stand at a bus stop and proclaim "that bus is gay" because its late.
I dont know where it has all come from because i know i wasnt brought up to be a racist homophobic bigot, and yet i have cought myself online typing "thats totally gay".
The other problem i feel is that some people are effecitlvy cusioned from reality, they dont understand that what they are saying is wrong. They hear from black rappers all calling each other Nwords and ive even heard comedians go on about it (chris rock). they think "hey they are calling each other Nwords it must be alright."
I understand that a lot of young folk listen to RAP and so they must assume that because their idols are using the word its ok as well. Ive had people pop into open chat "hey whats happening Nword" and it makes my skin crawl but i dont insta report them. If i truely felt it was that offensive i would /rpfilter the word and move on. I do remember when that command came in i /rp filtered an entire NPC saying (the finlaiths at cursed forest) then half my conversations wouldnt make sence till i turned it off.
I think companies need to provide us with the tools to filter it and as soon as we turn of that filter then thats it we can no longer complain. They put in places to censor words and instead we turned them of as soon as we can, then we get offended when someone uses it ? thats what doesnt make sence.
People get offended way too easily. There's no such thing as "bad words", they're words which are used to express feelings towards something, someone, or oneself.
If hearing someone say a word which society has labeled as "bad" emotionally bothers you to the point that some people in this discussion are speaking of, you need to get tougher skin.
Honestly, I can't imagine the kind of sheltered lives you guys live when hearing the word "fuck" hurts your feelings.
...you really should have expected this sort of response from what I assume are predominately straight, white, males. Having never been disenfranchised, they have no understanding of how derogatory words belittle and disempower others. It is a way to keep the minorities " in their place".
Okay, so it's perfectly fine to stereotype long as we're talking about heterosexual white males? Got it.
Lol...the irony in some people that proclaim or act like they're so above it all yet so quick and freely judge others is downright nauseating at times.
1. For god's sake mmo gamers, enough with the analogies. They're unnecessary and your comparisons are terrible, dissimilar, and illogical.
2. To posters feeling the need to state how f2p really isn't f2p: Players understand the concept. You aren't privy to some secret the rest are missing. You're embarrassing yourself.
3. Yes, Cpt. Obvious, we're not industry experts. Now run along and let the big people use the forums for their purpose.
All this fricking stupid talk about politics and disenfranchised people.
Don't you sadsacks get it?
It's not about race. In the countries where whites are not the majority, who is ruling? Brown peoples.
It's not about sexual orientation, homosexuality has been around longer than marriage. Are you all so certain there are no homosexuals in positions of power the world over?
It's about entitlement of the few and it doesn't matter what color, race, religion, or sexual orientation you are, you don't belong to their so-called "bloodline" and you aren't part of any "agreements" between families.
And females, don't feel "proud" or whatever dubious emotion it is, that there aren't that many women in positions of power. Do you really think that the wives/daughters of these men give a ff about you and your thoughts? maybe a few, but their own view them as aberrations and of traitorous frame of mind which needs "correcting".
Anybody in America that doesn't think it's so is frankly ignorant of history merged into current events.
Smacktalk in any venue is about people feeling powerless and wanting to attack someone, anyone. Granted there are dedicated griefers, but most people who "lose their cool" are at that moment feeling pretty powerless and it's a poor attempt to get some back.
I don't know why people are behaving differently now, except maybe the state of the economy, and world in general, is somehow being brought home to them and they are simply being a little more careful for reasons only known to them.
Economically speaking, many now don't have the complete freedom to game-hop if they get banned in one. Perhaps they are more careful because they want to keep their current sub since they are working very hard to pay down over-extended credit cards.
In short perhaps, in their minds, they are trying to make the best of a bad situation by not making it any worse.
Originally posted by delateur Really, Demonshank? That's what you got out of the article and the resulting responses? All I see is a bunch of people expressing their ideas about prejudice and how it factors into life (which I agree is a separation from how it specifically applies to MMOGs, but you can't blame the posters for that. They do this mainly to either deflect attention from weak arguments or to try to draw a more widespread impact from a simple word that is being used in a derogatory way (perhaps I am guilt of both myself). This is not an "easy" subject, and it's going to elicit a lot of different responses, some sophomoric, some quite profound. I'm sure this isn't everyone's cup of tea, and doesn't seem to be yours, but it IS an aspect of online gaming, and I believe it does have merit. There are some good ideas being bandied about here. You're obviously less comfortable with this kind of chatter than with, let's say, the most optimum build for a paladin in DDO. That's fine, I'm sure you can find what you're looking for elsewhere. I, for one, find discussions like this to be rare gems in otherwise very straightforward (and often mathematical) strategy guides on how to play the game better. Sure, they're messier, but they're also more filling.
I did glean exactly what I opined, Delateur. I see those same bunch of people expressing their ideas about prejudice as you. The problem is the presentation and the unchallenged stage given on a site I do not see(you form your own opinion, respectfully supported by me) as a place to discuss social initiatives and standards. We as posters can challenge, but if it goes beyond any response(as Zorvan pointed out) or clarification/discussion what is it besides simple soabox 'take that' declaration?
I could understand a 'give and take' presentation. I missed the part about suggesting greater options for users in a less than free speech medium(mmog), therefore creating a meaningful gaming discussion. I agree with many of the posters here. "Language filter on". Those filters can be tuned with greater options as games are created(wasting time and funds, imo), but seriously get a grip people!
You're too sensitive and I guess you file anyone into /ignore that makes a joke or includes conjecture using the words 'gay' or 'retarded'. Those words still have very clear definition and are hardly that offensive. If you're a homosexual, do you not call yourself and those with your preference 'gays'? My understanding is 'gay' has a 'carefree' definition too. The users Nvidia card was functioning improperly and "carefree" of his need for it to work correctly. The fact that those words become empowered with bigotry or contempt is because the affected is likely lacking proper information. Simple explanation can settle the misinterpretation. Mommy didnt teach you 'Sticks and Stones'? Generally speaking, not you specifically, Delateur
The 'N' word is really a different story. Its pretty inappropriate for use at all, but as someone said much earlier "its not gonna ruin my day". If I heard someone using it in a derogatory manner(not many other ways to use it) and that person when asked politely to use more tasteful language(in the presense of children predominantly) declined, that would likely turn unpleasant. If this person/'s were using it, as also stated earlier, as another form of 'friend, pal, homie, fella" then clearly that is their prerogative. You might think that those using it (in any form) would get an ass kicking, but it might just be the opposite outcome.
Im not disputing the discussion. I think its better presented in the contextual form, as Ms. Weathers made, somewhere else more appropriate. Also, your judgement of my distaste to meaningful discussion/debate isnt correct Delateur, quite the contrary, when in(my feeling of) the proper realm. There is a large field of topics that apply to improving, changing, creating, playing, and a host of other debatable concepts in gaming. This could be worth a type of open discussion, but its, moreover, sniping at each other and a failure of the article(if you can call it that) to really create a base beyond "my way is correct". The painting of Ms. Weathers social standard is intolerant at best. I stand by my request for it to be removed.
SanyaDirector of Community Undead LabsMemberUncommonPosts: 50
/boggle
When I last checked this thread, it was two pages long. Then I stopped checking it, because it was a holiday weekend, and the only time I spent on the computer was for paying work.
And my goodness.
Guys, this was kind of a "low hanging fruit" week. For my more insider-y columns I try to interview people currently working in the industry. Last week being the week before a holiday, a lot of employed people weren't on IM. So it was less an inside the industry column than it was an inside the game column.
Anyway, I needed something fast and simple. It struck me as interesting that in a number of anecdotes grouped close together, people acted with courtesy and respect for each other - took into account that the things they said might offend or hurt people that they couldn't see. And yes, I was aware it would start a discussion... which, um, is currently my job?
It does bother me that whenever I try to say basically "listen, these words coming from someone we can't see and don't know can be hurtful," the response usually degenerates to "well, *I* never had a slave."
Get a grip, please. There is a ton of respectable scholarship out there about privilege and invisible benefits, etc.
Yes, it's about white privilege, but it can apply to other situations.
Saying that a particular group is at a disadvantage in our "culture" is not assigning blame for it.
Finally, if I were going to answer the various people saying context matters when you use words that can be harmful... YES. And the open chat channel in an MMO where you cannot see any of the people you're talking with, where you don't know their backgrounds and experiences? IS NEVER THE RIGHT CONTEXT. I'm sorry I didn't make that more clear! Seriously. If you want to swear or act like an ass or reveal your own favorite -ism, do it in guild chat or PM.
Sanya M. Weathers Director of Community Undead Labs
Get a grip, please. There is a ton of respectable scholarship out there about privilege and invisible benefits, etc. http://www.nymbp.org/reference/WhitePrivilege.pdf Yes, it's about white privilege, but it can apply to other situations. Saying that a particular group is at a disadvantage in our "culture" is not assigning blame for it.
Please excuse me if my language offends your delicate sensibilities, but WHAT THE FUCK does what you just posted have to do with mmos or games in general?
This is a site for mmorpgs, i.e. GAMES. This is not your personal platform for social or political commentary. I've seen less inflamatory bulshit deleted from the "Off Topic" section for being "flame bait".
If you have somehow confused your years of being a "community manager" and the last couple months of being a mmorpg.com article writer as being some type of legitimate journalism, that's fine. More power to you. I'm sure the New York Times is just beating down your door for your unparalled wisdom regarding racial equality.
But I do not consider a gaming forum to be the proper place for your soapbox.
And in fact, what I have quoted from you there shows that there was more to your little "article" than just being upset over some chat. You have an agenda, and have done a lousy job of disguising it, especially after this. Be glad I don't run this site, you'd have already been let go.
This shit's over, I'm not getting a ban over your ridiculousness.
I understand that people get offended but man I mean come on this whole PC crap has gotten out of hand. Now Im not going to go up to a black person and call them a Nigger in a hateful way but I don't care what color you are if you're contemptible, inferior, ignorant you're a Nigger, cuz that's the def. I used to call my friends nigga's all the time but then we changed it to Ninja cuz it sounds cooler.
Gay, Retarded, Faggot, all are used in my daily vocabulary. Dude that is so gay, Man your so retarded, Quit being such a fag. I use all the time now am i making fun of Gays and Retards no, its just I grew up with those words with different meanings. I can understand that people might get offended about it, but man why make such a fuss over words? Its pretty easy to figure out how people are using words. Like the whole Nvidia's Gay, obviously you can see that he is just calling them lame and not calling the team Homosexual.
Now you might say why not just call them stupid or lame and just drop the whole gay retarded thing. Its how people grew up, and I say telling someone not to use certain words is gay. It is suppressing my freedom of speech and expression. I have the right to say anything as long as it doesn't insight a riot or isn't slander and such.
Censorship has gone way to far, I say radio stations shouldn't block out cuss words. Cuss words are looked down upon and I hear people say that only simple minded people use curse words which I think is totally retarded . Fuck is a very versatle word and can be used in many ways and in one way that no other word can be used. for example. I want to get a tattoo right fucking here (pointing to my leg). Can you replace fucking with another word that makes sense?
If you don't want to hear these words you don't have to, you can change the station and listen to music that doesn't have curse words. Or if the people you hang around use it and you don't like it hang around different people. Or if they are in game just blist them, end of story your not taking peoples right to freedom of speech and expression away and you don't have to listen to it, so its a win, win situation.
Now it comes to protecting the kids, I understand that its important. You can't always be around your kids but when they are in your home you should be monitoring what they are listening to or watching. Other than that its the best you can do. Why deface artists that poured there heart and soul into their music by bleeping words out? Its just because some people are just to controlling or are to lazy to monitor what kids listen to and watch.
I have the right of freedom of speech and expression. I don't have the right to tell people not to use certain words no matter what the definition of those words are. Louis CK totally hit the nail with the whole Faggot thing www.youtube.com/watch. People just need to lighten up laugh, which is easy for me I think just about everything is funny. Im glad I can laugh at things that some people can't, Id live a pretty gay life if that were the case. If I have to stop saying words why am I the one making a compromise on my freedom? Id tell them either you let me say a few words and i'll stop saying certain words, otherwise no deal, it seems like a fair deal to me. Im a reasonable guy and I try not to offend people but its all about the definition of the word. Id say ahh man that is so gay in a crowd of homosexuals or thats retarded in a group of Retards. Just like Carlos Mencia said if you can't tell a joke about retards in front of retards you have no right to say that joke at all anywhere else. Same thing in my book goes with the way you use words.
Originally posted by Sanya /boggle When I last checked this thread, it was two pages long. Then I stopped checking it, because it was a holiday weekend, and the only time I spent on the computer was for paying work. And my goodness. Guys, this was kind of a "low hanging fruit" week. For my more insider-y columns I try to interview people currently working in the industry. Last week being the week before a holiday, a lot of employed people weren't on IM. So it was less an inside the industry column than it was an inside the game column. Anyway, I needed something fast and simple. It struck me as interesting that in a number of anecdotes grouped close together, people acted with courtesy and respect for each other - took into account that the things they said might offend or hurt people that they couldn't see. And yes, I was aware it would start a discussion... which, um, is currently my job? It does bother me that whenever I try to say basically "listen, these words coming from someone we can't see and don't know can be hurtful," the response usually degenerates to "well, *I* never had a slave." Get a grip, please. There is a ton of respectable scholarship out there about privilege and invisible benefits, etc. http://www.nymbp.org/reference/WhitePrivilege.pdf Yes, it's about white privilege, but it can apply to other situations. Saying that a particular group is at a disadvantage in our "culture" is not assigning blame for it. Finally, if I were going to answer the various people saying context matters when you use words that can be harmful... YES. And the open chat channel in an MMO where you cannot see any of the people you're talking with, where you don't know their backgrounds and experiences? IS NEVER THE RIGHT CONTEXT. I'm sorry I didn't make that more clear! Seriously. If you want to swear or act like an ass or reveal your own favorite -ism, do it in guild chat or PM.
Im not going to even bother with asking if this is a serious response. You madam are a rude and an intolerant dross! It was clear from the jump what your intentions were by writing this drivel. Its patronizing to think, after reading your declaration, that you were trying to simply convey "listen, these words coming from someone we can't see and don't know can be hurtful," . To be perfectly clear, I dont believe anyone visiting this site has ever "had a slave". With that said, its blasphemous what you really had intention to convey, an agenda to spew vitriolic bile onto the common forum goers at a gaming & mmo community website.
To suggest that because someone uses a series of words, with multiple definition, in a mmog, that could be misconstrued, misinterpreted, or flat out blocked from personally affecting your societal watch group, would require you to create a pathetic piece to make notice of horrible oppressions of the long since remanded past. Your progressive lunacy will fail against reasonable participating people. Its unecessary to bring such disgusting hate to a gaming website. Can we not go anywhere without code-pinkers like you from screaming out some dopey injustices from (again) remanded past?
Something is seriously wrong if you believe that anyone within the borders of america have even a fraction less opportunity when compared to one of white skin. This is a highly uneducated belief if that is what I comprehend from this... Saying that a particular group is at a disadvantage in our "culture" is not assigning blame for it. That is outrageous and callous!
I could say a hell of a lot to individuals all over the world that wouldnt bring to mind the progressively ruinous vision you're plagued with Ms. Weathers. You should be ashamed and resign your position. This community deserves far better than people with malignant viewpoints such as yours.
/boggle When I last checked this thread, it was two pages long. Then I stopped checking it, because it was a holiday weekend, and the only time I spent on the computer was for paying work. And my goodness. Guys, this was kind of a "low hanging fruit" week. For my more insider-y columns I try to interview people currently working in the industry. Last week being the week before a holiday, a lot of employed people weren't on IM. So it was less an inside the industry column than it was an inside the game column. Anyway, I needed something fast and simple. It struck me as interesting that in a number of anecdotes grouped close together, people acted with courtesy and respect for each other - took into account that the things they said might offend or hurt people that they couldn't see. And yes, I was aware it would start a discussion... which, um, is currently my job? It does bother me that whenever I try to say basically "listen, these words coming from someone we can't see and don't know can be hurtful," the response usually degenerates to "well, *I* never had a slave." Get a grip, please. There is a ton of respectable scholarship out there about privilege and invisible benefits, etc. http://www.nymbp.org/reference/WhitePrivilege.pdf Yes, it's about white privilege, but it can apply to other situations. Saying that a particular group is at a disadvantage in our "culture" is not assigning blame for it. Finally, if I were going to answer the various people saying context matters when you use words that can be harmful... YES. And the open chat channel in an MMO where you cannot see any of the people you're talking with, where you don't know their backgrounds and experiences? IS NEVER THE RIGHT CONTEXT. I'm sorry I didn't make that more clear! Seriously. If you want to swear or act like an ass or reveal your own favorite -ism, do it in guild chat or PM.
If you were aware it was going to start a discussion then what's the problem? Did you actually think everyone was going to write, "Spot on Sanya! Couldn't agree more!". Much as some might want us to be and contrary to what some would impose we're not lemmings so we're going to have different points of view on the matter and quite frankly there are points in your article that can be more than fairly argued about as to how legitimate they might be or if its really fair to qualify someone making a blatant racial slur to someone using a phrase used quite commonly by some without the slightest implication or relevance towards trying to offend someone.
No, I don't agree with everyone's point of view on this subject. I suppose you could say I'm in the grey area because I don't think you're completely right about what is truly offensive and denotes unacceptable chit chat nor do I deem that it should just be a vast free for all where you can say whatever you want whenever without, if nothing else, fearing the repurcussions of said actions. It would be nice if they just felt the need to keep it to themselves from a moralistic point of view but we know that just isn't going to happen with some.
That also doesn't mean you should have to "walk on egg shells" with everything you say or do and to an extent some that harp on what they deem should be socially deemed acceptable or improper do nothing but create a problem rather than actually resolve or dilute one.
I'm not surprised you're defending your point of view but again the way you go about it...well...heh
One could make the argument that your post is actually offensive and also unneccessary least in parts. I know why you did it but you're actually going to call them out while sinking to their level? People in glass houses...
Always entertaining though, I can't wait to tell The Man at our next meeting. Our conquest for world domination grows ever nearer all the time
Edit: So I actually bothered to read that theses. It has an interesting point and in parts its spot on. It's also outdated as hell and irrelevant in other parts to the point it takes away some credence from the overall validity of the piece. Certainly not trash but not sure I would use that to make my point considering how outdated it is. The copyright might be 1988 but reads older than that least to me. It's a shame that all of those points were valid at one point or another but to try and say that's the way things are now in this day and age across the board frankly isn't true. Still, it is noteworthy to take a look at and gain some perspective on matters especially for some that might be completely out of touch with things in general.
1. For god's sake mmo gamers, enough with the analogies. They're unnecessary and your comparisons are terrible, dissimilar, and illogical.
2. To posters feeling the need to state how f2p really isn't f2p: Players understand the concept. You aren't privy to some secret the rest are missing. You're embarrassing yourself.
3. Yes, Cpt. Obvious, we're not industry experts. Now run along and let the big people use the forums for their purpose.
First of all, i belive that all that "poliical correct" thing is nonsence. With that thing someone just trying to enforce his/her point of view on what is offencive and what isn't. Well, i belive that if every one will start to think would his/her words offence some one or not - world will fall in silence. Just because you can't be absolutly sure, that you'll not offence one (or more) of 6 (or more?) billions people out there? Even ramdomly typed letters have a chance to do so, i belive. Not everyone know all meanings of words and sleng in other countries. There is no such thing like universal culture. What is ok to use in in Russia, can be offencive in USA. For example, in Russia world that mean black guy is "negr". It's very close to oh-so-feared "N" word in USA, so there will be someone for sure who will find it offencive. But Russia never had colony in Africa, never used it's native people as slaves and this word never been offencive in original meaning. Not even words, actions can be explained in different manner. For example good old European (? never been in America, so dunno how it's there) tradition for male to open up door before female and let her in first. I belive some feminist can find it very offencive and give me a long speach about male dominance, but in Russia that is norm of behaviour for polite people and if you don't do so traditionalist will find that offencive and count you as barbarian at least. Speaking about culture. It can differ so much... for example in most of muslim countries male dominance is absolute. If husband don't like what his wife speakiing or doing he can seamply beat her. And that is absolutly normal. And if you will try to interract - he will beat you too, because it's none of your business. Such behaviar is unacceptable for western culture. It's unacceptable for me (living in European part of Russia), but it's ok inCaucasian region. So even in one country what is offencive and what isn't can differ a lot. And now you trying to apply your rules on whole Earth? You making me laugh - people around the world differ too much. And who said that your rules is the right ones? So i belive that people just inventing problems for themselves. If you want to find something offencive - you will find something for sure even if that someone doing or speaking something that is perfectly ok in his/her country. And sorry for my English
I understand what you're trying to say here, but in this particular case I don't think it applies. The author was relating a story from a game being played on an American server. In that case, geographical tolerances and/or bigotry are less of a factor, in my opinion.
I've traveled all over the USA for work and pleasure, and I can't think of a place I've visited where no blacks would be offended by the casual use of the n-word toward complete strangers, nor can I think of a place where no gays would be offended by casual use of the word "gay" as a derogatory slur.
Mind you, I'm not saying I advocate policing the internet. I'm just pointing out why I disagree with your statement. Hell... if they started policing due to swearing, I'd be tossed out of every game eventually. I use "colorful" language as a part of my daily speech. :P
Actually Newrf is right on track for in my time I have seen over and over and can see it here as well. The only ones ever offended by anything in this arena are those looking to be offended so they can make some drama of the situation. As far as racial comments go I have seen one of a race get offended and standing right next to them someone of the same race laughing about it.
Again the REALITY is you only get offended if you CHOSE to.....none of this BS will hurt you, kill you or take away your food or shelter...it doesn't steal your car or take over your company...it doesn't kick your grandma in the knee or break a window...it wont pee in your coffee or sleep with your husband.
Some of you people need to seriously get a grip, it's you that are a danger with this and are the ones truly distasteful. Programed from youth like drones to react like others think you should instead of ever learning to think/act for yourselves, shame most of you wont even realize it.
I've read this entire thread and have not been surprised at Ms. Weathers cowardice to respond and support her despicable entry. Its a progressive and sickeningly liberal blame america write up. Placing a picture of Don Imus in a puff piece about a benign phrase from a 15yr old in a game is preposterous. Ms. Weathers is also clearly overly sensitive and disrespectful of anyones viewpoint beyond her own. You should create a site for your soabox of lunacy, madam.
This is a gaming site. Which should be used to discuss aspects of gaming. This social and political garbage is best discussed at more suitable places. My suggestion would be whatever hate america website she subscibes to currently. Zorvan, you're completely right on with your perception. Also, I agree with the majority of opinion and response you've made here.
Its beyond time we move on and stop with all this hatred. We in america have defeated the cultural inequities of the past. We are NOT 'african-american, hispanic-american, white-american'. If you're born here(or leagally immigrate) in this country you are afforded the same open ceiling and open floor within the law. Its just that simple. You're american!! We need to realize this bigotry and cultural(political in reality) sniping only makes the reasonable thinking majority question how long will the blame game keep going.
This{US} is the greatest country in the world. The more effort and harder you work is what determines your outcome. Ask President Obama. Ask the men and women of the supreme court. Ask coaches and owners in all major sports leagues. Doctors, lawyers, and professors of logical thinking. It is not easy, nor should be. There needs to be no standard for one and all. The kind of nanny state socialism creates and sustains is mediocrity at best. You'll never be any higher or lower than your neighbor(this is a whole other convo in itself). The bars are set by the government and all you get is medial sustenance. Might as well burn a number in your forehead cause thats about all you are. Nothing makes you any different than the person next door.
I think this piece was also written to start contoversy and works towards the site definition of 'trolling'. It should be romoved and if she is employed/compensated in any way it should be witheld and reprimanded strongly. Several viewpoints on gaming is useful here, but bringing in an unchallenged viewpoint by a substantial writer on the header box is bias and creates contempt. This isnt the place to spout your social initiatives and standards Ms. Weathers, please take it somewhere that this would seem appropriate.
I strongly disagree with her viewpoints/opinions but I also support her right to state them......
Otherwise I might not have had the opportunity to correct her! !:P
Finally, if I were going to answer the various people saying context matters when you use words that can be harmful... YES. And the open chat channel in an MMO where you cannot see any of the people you're talking with, where you don't know their backgrounds and experiences? IS NEVER THE RIGHT CONTEXT. I'm sorry I didn't make that more clear! Seriously. If you want to swear or act like an ass or reveal your own favorite -ism, do it in guild chat or PM."
The ONLY way it can EVER be harmful in a game is if someone reading w/e does not know how to manage their emotions thus harming themselves with their own self made distress. This is directly controlled by a decision process in the brain...as in YOU DECIDED TO BECOME HARMED. People would do the whole world a favor if they stopped trying to blame others for their own lack of emotional management.
Comments
The words are irrelavent, it's the meaning they convey. For intinstance calling something 'gay' or 'ghey' is offensive simply because its a word that describes a group of people due to their sexual preference. To then use it in a refernce to 'lame or stupid' is derogatory to those people, obviously. When its used in the 'dudue that's gay' it isn't in the happy sense is it.
The word 'niger' is offence for the same reason, it's to do with the conotation of the word. While it is true that words and language evolve and their original meanings change it is also true that while a majority of people still see the word as offensive it reamins so.
-----
The person who is certain, and who claims divine warrant for his certainty, belongs now to the infancy of our species.
I think that the whole 'gay' problem may just solve itself. Eventually the new definition (lame/boring) will be mainstream enough that people will forget it ever meant homosexual. Some may find this a perversion of the word rather than an evolution of it, but they'll get over it.
- RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right?
- FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
First of all, I take the terms "maturity" and "immaturity" as neither insults nor compliments. Assuming that everyone must adhere to some subjective test of wisdom is, ironically, a binary viewpoint itself.
And while life in general isn't rendered in black and white, MMO playerbases do not represent a truly random cross-section of such. For reasons that are probably fathomable, MMO playerbases are fractured (with perhaps slightly blurred lines of distinction) into those who are there to play and cooperate, and those who are there to dominate and compete.
It imposes an environment that surpasses even the hostility encountered in the real world.
Proposition 8? are you high?
This is one of those things that people toss out there so they can focus on some narrow thing. As opposed to the entire thing...
The US is supposed to be based on a Democratic Republic. The concept of "majority rule" and gay marriage whether you support it or not.. Was put to a vote and failed. The courts of california over-ruled the voters (goes directly against the system) and Proposition 8 was the voters saying "oh no you don't".
This is about system... If you want to pass gay marriage then like anything else you go out and convince people to vote for it. You don't sideline the system or do an end run to get around how things work.
In effect it would have been the same thing as filing a lawsuit because Obama was elected president. Then having the court toss out his election... Proposition 8 only existed because the system had been VIOLATED.
I don't care what someone does... what they believe etc
What I do care about is "system" and the moment you do an end run around it.... You have opened the door so that the next time the end run might not be in your favor.
I'm from VT... guess what? It was the first stae in the US to pass "gay marriage" by the system instead of by the court. Even tho it was through a veto over-ride it was still done within the system.
The solution to much of anything is to get people to identify and relate to your point of view and gain support for your cause.
Oh and yes I'm a "white male" in a mixed race family but they don't hold it against me... imagine that.
Ever heard of a phrase " The Tyranny of the Majority"? It's why so many laws passed by voters wind up in the Supreme Court. Because the majority can be mighty bigoted. And the majority has no problem denying others their constitutional rights. If the majority ruled, African-Americans would still be sitting at the back of the bus.
There's a lot of irony in this article from Sanya.
She's quick to point out that she condemns racial and sexual insults and sterotypes... then she proceeds to sterotype MMO gamers by acting shocked that they object to people using certain deragotory words and report bugs without expecting any compensation. Too bad MMO players aren't a protected class, then Sanya would now be fired and blacklisted in the community.
Sanya, sterotyping people is a bad thing to do, even if your government hasn't passed laws against it. Grow up.
Stereotyping individuals of a particular people could be objectively called a self-defeating behavior. Stereotyping an entire group of people is not necessarily subject to the same criticism and could be as simple as, "Kenyans, in general, are better long distance runners." Should you treat every Kenyan you meet as a long distance runner? Probably not, but knowing that you might want to go to Kenya to find a long distance runner is not entirely useless.
Also, being surprised by the behavior of individuals in the face of a group stereotype is actually the inverse of prejudice and bigotry.
I agree with your sentiment but think you're rather out there trying to compare saying "Nividia is gay" to being a bigoted comment. Pending on where you live it gets used quite commonly and is in no way meant towards flaming or thinking ill of homosexuals. Hell, one of my best friends at work is a lesbian and she uses that phrase about things more than just about anyone else I know (beats it to death actually-can be very annoying). It's a context thing least with people I know. Most can decipher or read between the lines to tell when you mean it in a bigoted, harmful sentiment or when you're just using it as a catchphrase. I get mmo chat isn't the real world but I haven't run across anyone in years regardless of whether they're heterosexual or homosexual that gets up in arms over that phrase.
Again, I get your basic premise and I know you were just giving an example but compared to the shit that tends to go on even in LotR especially if you're on the global channels getting worked up over that seems like nonsense to me. Overall though it was a nice read. Not so sure you would think things have changed all that much though if you were in the global channels. Its about a half step away from being Barrens chat in my opinion.
...and I'm not going to sift back through these posts again but to the poster that said Southpark made this a common, acceptable term? Huh? It had nothing to do with that show. If it had to do with anything it was people being more open about talking about homosexuality and not treating it like such a taboo subject and realizing that sexual preference has no bearing on your own life or the realization that associating with those that might happen to be homosexual will in no way make you a homosexual yourself and like yourself they prefer to be treated like a fellow human being - not like a glass menagerie or a dirty sock.
1. For god's sake mmo gamers, enough with the analogies. They're unnecessary and your comparisons are terrible, dissimilar, and illogical.
2. To posters feeling the need to state how f2p really isn't f2p: Players understand the concept. You aren't privy to some secret the rest are missing. You're embarrassing yourself.
3. Yes, Cpt. Obvious, we're not industry experts. Now run along and let the big people use the forums for their purpose.
Anyone else notice this seems to be the only "article" written by Sanya where she hasn't come in the thread to respond, comment, or "clarify" in response to any posts?
I've read this entire thread and have not been surprised at Ms. Weathers cowardice to respond and support her despicable entry. Its a progressive and sickeningly liberal blame america write up. Placing a picture of Don Imus in a puff piece about a benign phrase from a 15yr old in a game is preposterous. Ms. Weathers is also clearly overly sensitive and disrespectful of anyones viewpoint beyond her own. You should create a site for your soabox of lunacy, madam.
This is a gaming site. Which should be used to discuss aspects of gaming. This social and political garbage is best discussed at more suitable places. My suggestion would be whatever hate america website she subscibes to currently. Zorvan, you're completely right on with your perception. Also, I agree with the majority of opinion and response you've made here.
Its beyond time we move on and stop with all this hatred. We in america have defeated the cultural inequities of the past. We are NOT 'african-american, hispanic-american, white-american'. If you're born here(or leagally immigrate) in this country you are afforded the same open ceiling and open floor within the law. Its just that simple. You're american!! We need to realize this bigotry and cultural(political in reality) sniping only makes the reasonable thinking majority question how long will the blame game keep going.
This{US} is the greatest country in the world. The more effort and harder you work is what determines your outcome. Ask President Obama. Ask the men and women of the supreme court. Ask coaches and owners in all major sports leagues. Doctors, lawyers, and professors of logical thinking. It is not easy, nor should be. There needs to be no standard for one and all. The kind of nanny state socialism creates and sustains is mediocrity at best. You'll never be any higher or lower than your neighbor(this is a whole other convo in itself). The bars are set by the government and all you get is medial sustenance. Might as well burn a number in your forehead cause thats about all you are. Nothing makes you any different than the person next door.
I think this piece was also written to start contoversy and works towards the site definition of 'trolling'. It should be romoved and if she is employed/compensated in any way it should be witheld and reprimanded strongly. Several viewpoints on gaming is useful here, but bringing in an unchallenged viewpoint by a substantial writer on the header box is bias and creates contempt. This isnt the place to spout your social initiatives and standards Ms. Weathers, please take it somewhere that this would seem appropriate.
Really, Demonshank? That's what you got out of the article and the resulting responses? All I see is a bunch of people expressing their ideas about prejudice and how it factors into life (which I agree is a separation from how it specifically applies to MMOGs, but you can't blame the posters for that. They do this mainly to either deflect attention from weak arguments or to try to draw a more widespread impact from a simple word that is being used in a derogatory way (perhaps I am guilt of both myself). This is not an "easy" subject, and it's going to elicit a lot of different responses, some sophomoric, some quite profound. I'm sure this isn't everyone's cup of tea, and doesn't seem to be yours, but it IS an aspect of online gaming, and I believe it does have merit. There are some good ideas being bandied about here. You're obviously less comfortable with this kind of chatter than with, let's say, the most optimum build for a paladin in DDO. That's fine, I'm sure you can find what you're looking for elsewhere. I, for one, find discussions like this to be rare gems in otherwise very straightforward (and often mathematical) strategy guides on how to play the game better. Sure, they're messier, but they're also more filling.
Demonshank:
I've read this entire thread and have not been surprised at Ms. Weathers cowardice to respond and support her despicable entry. Its a progressive and sickeningly liberal blame america write up. Placing a picture of Don Imus in a puff piece about a benign phrase from a 15yr old in a game is preposterous. Ms. Weathers is also clearly overly sensitive and disrespectful of anyones viewpoint beyond her own. You should create a site for your soabox of lunacy, madam....
Uh okay, while I think some of the examples she gave far as the Nividia thing and "throws like a girl" comments are short sighted and rather preposterous to deem in the same mix as her other example of someone using the n-word or, for example, a truly bigoted action such as knowingly using the f-word towards someone you know is a homosexual; I'm not sure we have to go Bill O'Reilley on her.
Heh...she had a good point just some ill advised comparisons she used for emphasis. People grow up in different environments. I guess in hers that's all deemed "evil, cruel, uneducated and reeking of bigotry". In mine, its a part of life and phrases people use with no ill will meant towards any race, gender, or personal sexual orientation and are used by people I associate with of different races, genders, and sexual orientations.
1. For god's sake mmo gamers, enough with the analogies. They're unnecessary and your comparisons are terrible, dissimilar, and illogical.
2. To posters feeling the need to state how f2p really isn't f2p: Players understand the concept. You aren't privy to some secret the rest are missing. You're embarrassing yourself.
3. Yes, Cpt. Obvious, we're not industry experts. Now run along and let the big people use the forums for their purpose.
It is strange that the N word received such imediate outcry and yet the term GAY. There was a picture i remember seeing on the internet long time ago.
anonymitiy + internet = F**kt**d.
The same person that would call someone else a Nword wouldnt dream of using it outside in the real world, likewise they probbly wouldnt stand at a bus stop and proclaim "that bus is gay" because its late.
I dont know where it has all come from because i know i wasnt brought up to be a racist homophobic bigot, and yet i have cought myself online typing "thats totally gay".
The other problem i feel is that some people are effecitlvy cusioned from reality, they dont understand that what they are saying is wrong. They hear from black rappers all calling each other Nwords and ive even heard comedians go on about it (chris rock). they think "hey they are calling each other Nwords it must be alright."
I understand that a lot of young folk listen to RAP and so they must assume that because their idols are using the word its ok as well. Ive had people pop into open chat "hey whats happening Nword" and it makes my skin crawl but i dont insta report them. If i truely felt it was that offensive i would /rpfilter the word and move on. I do remember when that command came in i /rp filtered an entire NPC saying (the finlaiths at cursed forest) then half my conversations wouldnt make sence till i turned it off.
I think companies need to provide us with the tools to filter it and as soon as we turn of that filter then thats it we can no longer complain. They put in places to censor words and instead we turned them of as soon as we can, then we get offended when someone uses it ? thats what doesnt make sence.
"Freedom is just another name for nothing left to lose" - Janis Joplin
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People get offended way too easily. There's no such thing as "bad words", they're words which are used to express feelings towards something, someone, or oneself.
If hearing someone say a word which society has labeled as "bad" emotionally bothers you to the point that some people in this discussion are speaking of, you need to get tougher skin.
Honestly, I can't imagine the kind of sheltered lives you guys live when hearing the word "fuck" hurts your feelings.
Okay, so it's perfectly fine to stereotype long as we're talking about heterosexual white males? Got it.
Lol...the irony in some people that proclaim or act like they're so above it all yet so quick and freely judge others is downright nauseating at times.
1. For god's sake mmo gamers, enough with the analogies. They're unnecessary and your comparisons are terrible, dissimilar, and illogical.
2. To posters feeling the need to state how f2p really isn't f2p: Players understand the concept. You aren't privy to some secret the rest are missing. You're embarrassing yourself.
3. Yes, Cpt. Obvious, we're not industry experts. Now run along and let the big people use the forums for their purpose.
ofgs...
==== rant warning ====
All this fricking stupid talk about politics and disenfranchised people.
Don't you sadsacks get it?
It's not about race. In the countries where whites are not the majority, who is ruling? Brown peoples.
It's not about sexual orientation, homosexuality has been around longer than marriage. Are you all so certain there are no homosexuals in positions of power the world over?
It's about entitlement of the few and it doesn't matter what color, race, religion, or sexual orientation you are, you don't belong to their so-called "bloodline" and you aren't part of any "agreements" between families.
And females, don't feel "proud" or whatever dubious emotion it is, that there aren't that many women in positions of power. Do you really think that the wives/daughters of these men give a ff about you and your thoughts? maybe a few, but their own view them as aberrations and of traitorous frame of mind which needs "correcting".
Anybody in America that doesn't think it's so is frankly ignorant of history merged into current events.
They give us "bread and circuses" and, apparently, this IS enough as here you all are, part of the circus - no?
(Reference: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bread_and_circuses)
==== end rant ====
Smacktalk in any venue is about people feeling powerless and wanting to attack someone, anyone. Granted there are dedicated griefers, but most people who "lose their cool" are at that moment feeling pretty powerless and it's a poor attempt to get some back.
I don't know why people are behaving differently now, except maybe the state of the economy, and world in general, is somehow being brought home to them and they are simply being a little more careful for reasons only known to them.
Economically speaking, many now don't have the complete freedom to game-hop if they get banned in one. Perhaps they are more careful because they want to keep their current sub since they are working very hard to pay down over-extended credit cards.
In short perhaps, in their minds, they are trying to make the best of a bad situation by not making it any worse.
I did glean exactly what I opined, Delateur. I see those same bunch of people expressing their ideas about prejudice as you. The problem is the presentation and the unchallenged stage given on a site I do not see(you form your own opinion, respectfully supported by me) as a place to discuss social initiatives and standards. We as posters can challenge, but if it goes beyond any response(as Zorvan pointed out) or clarification/discussion what is it besides simple soabox 'take that' declaration?
I could understand a 'give and take' presentation. I missed the part about suggesting greater options for users in a less than free speech medium(mmog), therefore creating a meaningful gaming discussion. I agree with many of the posters here. "Language filter on". Those filters can be tuned with greater options as games are created(wasting time and funds, imo), but seriously get a grip people!
You're too sensitive and I guess you file anyone into /ignore that makes a joke or includes conjecture using the words 'gay' or 'retarded'. Those words still have very clear definition and are hardly that offensive. If you're a homosexual, do you not call yourself and those with your preference 'gays'? My understanding is 'gay' has a 'carefree' definition too. The users Nvidia card was functioning improperly and "carefree" of his need for it to work correctly. The fact that those words become empowered with bigotry or contempt is because the affected is likely lacking proper information. Simple explanation can settle the misinterpretation. Mommy didnt teach you 'Sticks and Stones'? Generally speaking, not you specifically, Delateur
The 'N' word is really a different story. Its pretty inappropriate for use at all, but as someone said much earlier "its not gonna ruin my day". If I heard someone using it in a derogatory manner(not many other ways to use it) and that person when asked politely to use more tasteful language(in the presense of children predominantly) declined, that would likely turn unpleasant. If this person/'s were using it, as also stated earlier, as another form of 'friend, pal, homie, fella" then clearly that is their prerogative. You might think that those using it (in any form) would get an ass kicking, but it might just be the opposite outcome.
Im not disputing the discussion. I think its better presented in the contextual form, as Ms. Weathers made, somewhere else more appropriate. Also, your judgement of my distaste to meaningful discussion/debate isnt correct Delateur, quite the contrary, when in(my feeling of) the proper realm. There is a large field of topics that apply to improving, changing, creating, playing, and a host of other debatable concepts in gaming. This could be worth a type of open discussion, but its, moreover, sniping at each other and a failure of the article(if you can call it that) to really create a base beyond "my way is correct". The painting of Ms. Weathers social standard is intolerant at best. I stand by my request for it to be removed.
/boggle
When I last checked this thread, it was two pages long. Then I stopped checking it, because it was a holiday weekend, and the only time I spent on the computer was for paying work.
And my goodness.
Guys, this was kind of a "low hanging fruit" week. For my more insider-y columns I try to interview people currently working in the industry. Last week being the week before a holiday, a lot of employed people weren't on IM. So it was less an inside the industry column than it was an inside the game column.
Anyway, I needed something fast and simple. It struck me as interesting that in a number of anecdotes grouped close together, people acted with courtesy and respect for each other - took into account that the things they said might offend or hurt people that they couldn't see. And yes, I was aware it would start a discussion... which, um, is currently my job?
It does bother me that whenever I try to say basically "listen, these words coming from someone we can't see and don't know can be hurtful," the response usually degenerates to "well, *I* never had a slave."
Get a grip, please. There is a ton of respectable scholarship out there about privilege and invisible benefits, etc.
http://www.nymbp.org/reference/WhitePrivilege.pdf
Yes, it's about white privilege, but it can apply to other situations.
Saying that a particular group is at a disadvantage in our "culture" is not assigning blame for it.
Finally, if I were going to answer the various people saying context matters when you use words that can be harmful... YES. And the open chat channel in an MMO where you cannot see any of the people you're talking with, where you don't know their backgrounds and experiences? IS NEVER THE RIGHT CONTEXT. I'm sorry I didn't make that more clear! Seriously. If you want to swear or act like an ass or reveal your own favorite -ism, do it in guild chat or PM.
Sanya M. Weathers
Director of Community
Undead Labs
Please excuse me if my language offends your delicate sensibilities, but WHAT THE FUCK does what you just posted have to do with mmos or games in general?
This is a site for mmorpgs, i.e. GAMES. This is not your personal platform for social or political commentary. I've seen less inflamatory bulshit deleted from the "Off Topic" section for being "flame bait".
If you have somehow confused your years of being a "community manager" and the last couple months of being a mmorpg.com article writer as being some type of legitimate journalism, that's fine. More power to you. I'm sure the New York Times is just beating down your door for your unparalled wisdom regarding racial equality.
But I do not consider a gaming forum to be the proper place for your soapbox.
And in fact, what I have quoted from you there shows that there was more to your little "article" than just being upset over some chat. You have an agenda, and have done a lousy job of disguising it, especially after this. Be glad I don't run this site, you'd have already been let go.
This shit's over, I'm not getting a ban over your ridiculousness.
I understand that people get offended but man I mean come on this whole PC crap has gotten out of hand. Now Im not going to go up to a black person and call them a Nigger in a hateful way but I don't care what color you are if you're contemptible, inferior, ignorant you're a Nigger, cuz that's the def. I used to call my friends nigga's all the time but then we changed it to Ninja cuz it sounds cooler.
Gay, Retarded, Faggot, all are used in my daily vocabulary. Dude that is so gay, Man your so retarded, Quit being such a fag. I use all the time now am i making fun of Gays and Retards no, its just I grew up with those words with different meanings. I can understand that people might get offended about it, but man why make such a fuss over words? Its pretty easy to figure out how people are using words. Like the whole Nvidia's Gay, obviously you can see that he is just calling them lame and not calling the team Homosexual.
Now you might say why not just call them stupid or lame and just drop the whole gay retarded thing. Its how people grew up, and I say telling someone not to use certain words is gay. It is suppressing my freedom of speech and expression. I have the right to say anything as long as it doesn't insight a riot or isn't slander and such.
Censorship has gone way to far, I say radio stations shouldn't block out cuss words. Cuss words are looked down upon and I hear people say that only simple minded people use curse words which I think is totally retarded . Fuck is a very versatle word and can be used in many ways and in one way that no other word can be used. for example. I want to get a tattoo right fucking here (pointing to my leg). Can you replace fucking with another word that makes sense?
If you don't want to hear these words you don't have to, you can change the station and listen to music that doesn't have curse words. Or if the people you hang around use it and you don't like it hang around different people. Or if they are in game just blist them, end of story your not taking peoples right to freedom of speech and expression away and you don't have to listen to it, so its a win, win situation.
Now it comes to protecting the kids, I understand that its important. You can't always be around your kids but when they are in your home you should be monitoring what they are listening to or watching. Other than that its the best you can do. Why deface artists that poured there heart and soul into their music by bleeping words out? Its just because some people are just to controlling or are to lazy to monitor what kids listen to and watch.
I have the right of freedom of speech and expression. I don't have the right to tell people not to use certain words no matter what the definition of those words are. Louis CK totally hit the nail with the whole Faggot thing www.youtube.com/watch. People just need to lighten up laugh, which is easy for me I think just about everything is funny. Im glad I can laugh at things that some people can't, Id live a pretty gay life if that were the case. If I have to stop saying words why am I the one making a compromise on my freedom? Id tell them either you let me say a few words and i'll stop saying certain words, otherwise no deal, it seems like a fair deal to me. Im a reasonable guy and I try not to offend people but its all about the definition of the word. Id say ahh man that is so gay in a crowd of homosexuals or thats retarded in a group of Retards. Just like Carlos Mencia said if you can't tell a joke about retards in front of retards you have no right to say that joke at all anywhere else. Same thing in my book goes with the way you use words.
Im not going to even bother with asking if this is a serious response. You madam are a rude and an intolerant dross! It was clear from the jump what your intentions were by writing this drivel. Its patronizing to think, after reading your declaration, that you were trying to simply convey "listen, these words coming from someone we can't see and don't know can be hurtful," . To be perfectly clear, I dont believe anyone visiting this site has ever "had a slave". With that said, its blasphemous what you really had intention to convey, an agenda to spew vitriolic bile onto the common forum goers at a gaming & mmo community website.
To suggest that because someone uses a series of words, with multiple definition, in a mmog, that could be misconstrued, misinterpreted, or flat out blocked from personally affecting your societal watch group, would require you to create a pathetic piece to make notice of horrible oppressions of the long since remanded past. Your progressive lunacy will fail against reasonable participating people. Its unecessary to bring such disgusting hate to a gaming website. Can we not go anywhere without code-pinkers like you from screaming out some dopey injustices from (again) remanded past?
Something is seriously wrong if you believe that anyone within the borders of america have even a fraction less opportunity when compared to one of white skin. This is a highly uneducated belief if that is what I comprehend from this... Saying that a particular group is at a disadvantage in our "culture" is not assigning blame for it. That is outrageous and callous!
I could say a hell of a lot to individuals all over the world that wouldnt bring to mind the progressively ruinous vision you're plagued with Ms. Weathers. You should be ashamed and resign your position. This community deserves far better than people with malignant viewpoints such as yours.
If you were aware it was going to start a discussion then what's the problem? Did you actually think everyone was going to write, "Spot on Sanya! Couldn't agree more!". Much as some might want us to be and contrary to what some would impose we're not lemmings so we're going to have different points of view on the matter and quite frankly there are points in your article that can be more than fairly argued about as to how legitimate they might be or if its really fair to qualify someone making a blatant racial slur to someone using a phrase used quite commonly by some without the slightest implication or relevance towards trying to offend someone.
No, I don't agree with everyone's point of view on this subject. I suppose you could say I'm in the grey area because I don't think you're completely right about what is truly offensive and denotes unacceptable chit chat nor do I deem that it should just be a vast free for all where you can say whatever you want whenever without, if nothing else, fearing the repurcussions of said actions. It would be nice if they just felt the need to keep it to themselves from a moralistic point of view but we know that just isn't going to happen with some.
That also doesn't mean you should have to "walk on egg shells" with everything you say or do and to an extent some that harp on what they deem should be socially deemed acceptable or improper do nothing but create a problem rather than actually resolve or dilute one.
I'm not surprised you're defending your point of view but again the way you go about it...well...heh
One could make the argument that your post is actually offensive and also unneccessary least in parts. I know why you did it but you're actually going to call them out while sinking to their level? People in glass houses...
Always entertaining though, I can't wait to tell The Man at our next meeting. Our conquest for world domination grows ever nearer all the time
Edit: So I actually bothered to read that theses. It has an interesting point and in parts its spot on. It's also outdated as hell and irrelevant in other parts to the point it takes away some credence from the overall validity of the piece. Certainly not trash but not sure I would use that to make my point considering how outdated it is. The copyright might be 1988 but reads older than that least to me. It's a shame that all of those points were valid at one point or another but to try and say that's the way things are now in this day and age across the board frankly isn't true. Still, it is noteworthy to take a look at and gain some perspective on matters especially for some that might be completely out of touch with things in general.
1. For god's sake mmo gamers, enough with the analogies. They're unnecessary and your comparisons are terrible, dissimilar, and illogical.
2. To posters feeling the need to state how f2p really isn't f2p: Players understand the concept. You aren't privy to some secret the rest are missing. You're embarrassing yourself.
3. Yes, Cpt. Obvious, we're not industry experts. Now run along and let the big people use the forums for their purpose.
"Freedom is just another name for nothing left to lose" - Janis Joplin
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I understand what you're trying to say here, but in this particular case I don't think it applies. The author was relating a story from a game being played on an American server. In that case, geographical tolerances and/or bigotry are less of a factor, in my opinion.
I've traveled all over the USA for work and pleasure, and I can't think of a place I've visited where no blacks would be offended by the casual use of the n-word toward complete strangers, nor can I think of a place where no gays would be offended by casual use of the word "gay" as a derogatory slur.
Mind you, I'm not saying I advocate policing the internet. I'm just pointing out why I disagree with your statement. Hell... if they started policing due to swearing, I'd be tossed out of every game eventually. I use "colorful" language as a part of my daily speech. :P
Actually Newrf is right on track for in my time I have seen over and over and can see it here as well. The only ones ever offended by anything in this arena are those looking to be offended so they can make some drama of the situation. As far as racial comments go I have seen one of a race get offended and standing right next to them someone of the same race laughing about it.
Again the REALITY is you only get offended if you CHOSE to.....none of this BS will hurt you, kill you or take away your food or shelter...it doesn't steal your car or take over your company...it doesn't kick your grandma in the knee or break a window...it wont pee in your coffee or sleep with your husband.
Some of you people need to seriously get a grip, it's you that are a danger with this and are the ones truly distasteful. Programed from youth like drones to react like others think you should instead of ever learning to think/act for yourselves, shame most of you wont even realize it.
Happy people don't kill people, offended ones do!
PIRATE LORDS
I strongly disagree with her viewpoints/opinions but I also support her right to state them......
Otherwise I might not have had the opportunity to correct her! !:P
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"Originally posted by Sanya
Finally, if I were going to answer the various people saying context matters when you use words that can be harmful... YES. And the open chat channel in an MMO where you cannot see any of the people you're talking with, where you don't know their backgrounds and experiences? IS NEVER THE RIGHT CONTEXT. I'm sorry I didn't make that more clear! Seriously. If you want to swear or act like an ass or reveal your own favorite -ism, do it in guild chat or PM."
The ONLY way it can EVER be harmful in a game is if someone reading w/e does not know how to manage their emotions thus harming themselves with their own self made distress. This is directly controlled by a decision process in the brain...as in YOU DECIDED TO BECOME HARMED. People would do the whole world a favor if they stopped trying to blame others for their own lack of emotional management.
PIRATE LORDS