While I"m not there, why shouldn't it? Why should I pay the same subscription rate as powergamers and raiders, and only be capable of having a 2nd rate character with 3rd class rewards because of time restrictions?
Hey, in any event, that's what Alganon is doing, so I've found my game. You can have yours.
why should you pay for something you are barely going to use? it is illogical.
its like buying a car so someone else can drive it around (hell you are not even in that car)
You're mistaken; I am using it, because I set my character to develop while I'm away. It's like asking me why buy stock, if I'm not going to sit at my computer and watch the DOW all day long?
Also, I own lots of things I rarely ever use; in fact, I do own a car I drive once a week or so. What difference does it make to you how I spend my money? How often do you think Jay Leno drives any of his cars? I have a video collection of movies; care to guess how often I watch any of them?
if you drive your car once a week because of NEED then sure its usefull and you cant compare it to playing a videogame your life does not NEED.
Jay Leno has cars as a collection, different use
movies same argument of collection, different use
game character, not a collection. offline development of a character who logs on rarely in the world. why not just click to get max level? and you choose what gear you want and then press create character. (GuildWars PvP toons do that, you can have everything at max lvl right away for pvp only)
also equal stuff? why would a guy that plays 40 hours a week have the same thing as a guy who plays 2? equality is not part of MMOGs, the more you play the more you get thats how it works. you want equality get some FPS game or multiplayer adventure game, multiplayer simulators, or sports. not MMOGs.
by what you tell me you seem like the type of guy/girl who will buy a 6000 USD$ computer and simply use microsoft office and youtube.
I will happily buy and pay a subscription for an MMOG that (1) allows me to set my character to advance while I'm offline (like the Alganon study system), and (2) all rewards are available (eventually, in some way) to the solo style of play.
Until then, I refuse to be pay to be a 2nd class or 3rd rate character. I have too much to do in life to dedicate time to play, or to arrange my schedule around a group or guild, or to log on and warder around trying to find a decent group. I don't have time to raid, and I can't pay that kind of attention to the game.
I'm not asking all games to cater to me and those like me, I'm just saying there is a market for an MMOG for people like me.
WHOA!!! UPDATE!!! I just read this at the Alganon site, from a dev chat:
"Another interesting aspect of studies is that they can open alternate means of advancement. If you hate large group raiding, but want the same rewards, studies can open up the opportunity to get those rewards. We don't want players to be forced to do something they hate so they can get what they need to do what they love."
Offline advancement, and EQUAL REWARDS!!! Whoop, there it is.
Why are you not playing a single player game? Why would you pay a monthly fee when a single player game is all you need? Why would you want your game to finish when you was offline when you buy games to play them? Those are some questions you need to ask yourself.
if you drive your car once a week because of NEED then sure its usefull and you cant compare it to playing a videogame your life does not NEED. Jay Leno has cars as a collection, different use movies same argument of collection, different use game character, not a collection. offline development of a character who logs on rarely in the world. why not just click to get max level? and you choose what gear you want and then press create character. (GuildWars PvP toons do that, you can have everything at max lvl right away for pvp only) also equal stuff? why would a guy that plays 40 hours a week have the same thing as a guy who plays 2? equality is not part of MMOGs, the more you play the more you get thats how it works. you want equality get some FPS game or multiplayer adventure game, multiplayer simulators, or sports. not MMOGs.
by what you tell me you seem like the type of guy/girl who will buy a 6000 USD$ computer and simply use microsoft office and youtube.
So, your argument is that you "need" to play video games? I don't need the car at all; I enjoy it driving it once a week or so. I don't live my life by some min/max efficiency/logic ratio. I do what I enjoy.
How you view your online gaming experience, and how others view theirs, does not have to be the same. You seem to think that the only reason anyone plays such games are for the reasons you do, or for the reasons you can imagine. Note how you are trying to talk someone out of what they know they enjoy. Do you also try to talk people out of enjoying apple pie, or the color red?
I agree that up until now, there hasn't been such equality in MMOGs, but that's an artificial separation. Alganon is coding it into the game; you believe that the deciding factor for the development of one's online character should be how much time the player has to invest; that's fine with me. There are many games that support your idea of how such a character should be developed. Yet, you seem to be threatened by others who might want to play an online game from a different perspective.
My perspective is that the character, hypothetically, shouldn't be limited to how much time the player has to play, but rather could be an ongoing virtual entity that is "active" 24/7 in that world. That makes it more of a "virtual world" IMO, more immersive. Also, it eliminates arbitrary real-life limitations of the players that make it easy for some players to excel, and impossible for others to get much farther than very low levels. After all, the virtual world is "going on" 24/7; why shouldn't every character in the game be set to "go on" 24/7?
I want a progressive character in an online community, much like most MMOGs, that I can set to advance while offline not because I don't want to play, but because I want to play, and compete with other players, and be in a community environment, but - like many, many players - I have little time to do so. When I can actually play, I want to log in and enjoy the progress my character has made, and do what I can when I'm actually on. This kind of system equalizes the characters in a basic way, so the differences in characters isn't all about "who has the most time to play", but rather the strategy one employs in setting their character studies, and what they as a player bring to the table other than how much time they have to play.
"The way it works" when it comes to loot distribution is however it is coded. Once again, I'm not saying all such games should be this way, but you seem to be saying that no game should even try such a solo & casual-player-friendly game.
Why are you not playing a single player game? Why would you pay a monthly fee when a single player game is all you need? Why would you want your game to finish when you was offline when you buy games to play them? Those are some questions you need to ask yourself.
I don't enjoy single-player games. I don't "need" any games; I enjoy MMOG communities. I don't want my game to "finish" when I am offline; I want my character to progress at the same rate as anyone else's.
The question you need to ask yourself is, why does it bother you that other people want something different in MMOGs? Do you not have enough games that serve the same "time is king" standard?
There are no other live players around when I play a single-player mmo.
There is no constantly updated and changing, evolving content.
When you're trying to convince someone they want something they don't want, you've already lost the argument.
This is the main reason that people go for playing MMOs solo. If you buy a single player game, run through it in 2 weeks then you have to purchase another single player game. Yes companies come out with expansions and such but they cannot compete with what MMOs offer in the form of constant updates.
I don't understand why people find soloing so hard to understand or why when someone says they want to solo raiders and groupers jump on them like they are a threat to the very being of MMOs.
""But Coyote, you could learn! You only prefer keyboard and mouse because that's all you've ever known!" You might say right before you hug a rainforest and walk in sandals to your drum circle where you're trying to raise group consciousness of ladybugs or whatever it is you dirty goddamn hippies do when you're not busy smoking pot and smelling bad." Coyote's Howling: Death of the Computer
Thats because people that design and create mmo's have the thought of bringing people together to play a game as a community, i understand that not everyone wants to play together but the only argument ive seen so far in this thread is that some people want all the single player mechanics minus the community but add in updates. Thats not what this market is designed for, granted i wouldnt be suprised if we start seeing more and more single player games like that, but we arent their yet. The fact still remains that this is a multiplayer community and the fact that people who have next to no time want everything to the people who have abit more time (and im not talking about people who play 40+ hours aweek) handed to them via no effort. Want a game that plays itself? fine, just dont think that youll be apart of the community, those people tend to be blacklisted from communities such as this one cause your not capable or understand the basic mechanics of the online gaming formula, which guess what...is muliplayer cooperation.
Everyone is not created equal. You don't deserve anything simply because you are alive, you have to work for it. Life isn't fair. Get over it and grow up.
I do work for it, and pay for it, exactly the same amount as anyone else pays for the game. Also, I don't have to "get over it", because as I said, Alganon is doing exactly what I have described.
Everyone is not created equal. You don't deserve anything simply because you are alive, you have to work for it. Life isn't fair. Get over it and grow up.
I do work for it, and pay for it, exactly the same amount as anyone else pays for the game. Also, I don't have to "get over it", because as I said, Alganon is doing exactly what I have described.
We just have to hope that no other company follows Alganon's example then.
Using LOL is like saying "my argument sucks but I still want to disagree".
While I"m not there, why shouldn't it? Why should I pay the same subscription rate as powergamers and raiders, and only be capable of having a 2nd rate character with 3rd class rewards because of time restrictions?
Hey, in any event, that's what Alganon is doing, so I've found my game. You can have yours.
The game isn't really unfair to anyone if you look at Content completed rather than Days, Weeks, or Months played.
You do a quest, you gain xp. You kill a Mob, you gain xp. All players that do quests, or Kill Mobs, gain the same XP. Sure, someone playing 40 hours a week will kill more Mobs and do more quests than you per WEEK, but they don't get any more xp othan you do when you kill the same amount of Mobs or do the same amount of quests.
There is a small amount of "unfairness". You are both paying 14.95 a month to play.
The person playing 40 hours a week will get through more content than you during the month, but at 14.95 per month it's so cheap does taht really matter?
If you both play for 10 months, you'll each pay 150 bucks. How much more value diid the person playing a lot per week really get than you? 50 dollars more? Is that really enough to complain about over the course of 10 months?
And really, what you are paying for is not teh HOUR of gameplay.
You are paying for the ACCESS 24/7. The game is there for you 24 hours a day, whenever you want to play. It's like belonging to a gym. Sure, some people go to the gym EVERY day, and work out 4 hours a day. Others go twice a week for 30 minutes, but they pay the same membership.
I will happily buy and pay a subscription for an MMOG that (1) allows me to set my character to advance while I'm offline (like the Alganon study system), and (2) all rewards are available (eventually, in some way) to the solo style of play.
Until then, I refuse to be pay to be a 2nd class or 3rd rate character. I have too much to do in life to dedicate time to play, or to arrange my schedule around a group or guild, or to log on and warder around trying to find a decent group. I don't have time to raid, and I can't pay that kind of attention to the game.
I'm not asking all games to cater to me and those like me, I'm just saying there is a market for an MMOG for people like me.
WHOA!!! UPDATE!!! I just read this at the Alganon site, from a dev chat:
"Another interesting aspect of studies is that they can open alternate means of advancement. If you hate large group raiding, but want the same rewards, studies can open up the opportunity to get those rewards. We don't want players to be forced to do something they hate so they can get what they need to do what they love."
Offline advancement, and EQUAL REWARDS!!! Whoop, there it is.
man ever heard of second rate citizens or lower class...thats where i am and i live life like the "powergamers" don't play MMos then i mean there is in no possiable way to equal the advancement of characters while offline to the gamer who can play 40 hours+ a week...However i also know nothing of this study system but it still seems as raiding would just be a lot easier...look i don't know you but if you really can't spare three hours in atleast one day a week...i feel sorry for you and you need to check and change your dailylife to have some more free time
I will happily buy and pay a subscription for an MMOG that (1) allows me to set my character to advance while I'm offline (like the Alganon study system), and (2) all rewards are available (eventually, in some way) to the solo style of play.
Until then, I refuse to be pay to be a 2nd class or 3rd rate character. I have too much to do in life to dedicate time to play, or to arrange my schedule around a group or guild, or to log on and warder around trying to find a decent group. I don't have time to raid, and I can't pay that kind of attention to the game.
I'm not asking all games to cater to me and those like me, I'm just saying there is a market for an MMOG for people like me.
WHOA!!! UPDATE!!! I just read this at the Alganon site, from a dev chat:
"Another interesting aspect of studies is that they can open alternate means of advancement. If you hate large group raiding, but want the same rewards, studies can open up the opportunity to get those rewards. We don't want players to be forced to do something they hate so they can get what they need to do what they love."
Offline advancement, and EQUAL REWARDS!!! Whoop, there it is.
man ever heard of second rate citizens or lower class...thats where i am and i live life like the "powergamers" don't play MMos then i mean there is in no possiable way to equal the advancement of characters while offline to the gamer who can play 40 hours+ a week...However i also know nothing of this study system but it still seems as raiding would just be a lot easier...look i don't know you but if you really can't spare three hours in atleast one day a week...i feel sorry for you and you need to check and change your dailylife to have some more free time
Personally, I don't understand this mentality. If there's a level cap, there's no difference between you and the power leveler.
You will both do the same quests, and kill the same number of Mobs to reach the same cap.
Why do you feel you need to do it in teh same number of days as the other person?
What if we went on a mountain hike to see a waterfall? I run to the top of the mountain and see the waterfall, then run back down and I'm a Kenyan marathon runner. I do it in 30 minutes. You take all day to get to the top and back down again.
Woudl you feel cheated because I did it faster than you, or woudl you say we both saw the waterfall and we both had an enjoyable experiennce? Does the speed really make such a difference for you? Would you say, well if he can do it 30 minutes I just dont' want to do it at all?
Would this make you a second rate citizen because you got the same experience, but did it at a slower pace?
While I"m not there, why shouldn't it? Why should I pay the same subscription rate as powergamers and raiders, and only be capable of having a 2nd rate character with 3rd class rewards because of time restrictions?
Hey, in any event, that's what Alganon is doing, so I've found my game. You can have yours.
The game isn't really unfair to anyone if you look at Content completed rather than Days, Weeks, or Months played.
You do a quest, you gain xp. You kill a Mob, you gain xp. All players that do quests, or Kill Mobs, gain the same XP. Sure, someone playing 40 hours a week will kill more Mobs and do more quests than you per WEEK, but they don't get any more xp othan you do when you kill the same amount of Mobs or do the same amount of quests.
There is a small amount of "unfairness". You are both paying 14.95 a month to play.
The person playing 40 hours a week will get through more content than you during the month, but at 14.95 per month it's so cheap does taht really matter?
If you both play for 10 months, you'll each pay 150 bucks. How much more value diid the person playing a lot per week really get than you? 50 dollars more? Is that really enough to complain about over the course of 10 months?
And really, what you are paying for is not teh HOUR of gameplay.
You are paying for the ACCESS 24/7. The game is there for you 24 hours a day, whenever you want to play. It's like belonging to a gym. Sure, some people go to the gym EVERY day, and work out 4 hours a day. Others go twice a week for 30 minutes, but they pay the same membership.
I never called the way things are "unfair". I'm not "complaining" about the way games are now, any more than I would complain about the way any particular model of cars or trucks are built. They are built to sell to a certain market.
What I'm advocating is a different design for a new car. Apparently, the makers of Alaganon agree. Why should I pay $15 a month for ACCESS to a game I might use 10 hrs a week, when another game comes out and offers me full use, 24/7? This is what you're not understanding, I'm not claiming that the "access/unequal advancement" system is wrong; I'm advocating that, while that is one model companies have been using, there is another model that might target another part of the market.
I don't really understand what the debate is about. Would you argue that trucks shouldn't be made, because you prefer sports cars? Or that vans, or motorcycles shouldn't be made, because you don't understand what would be appealing about such vehicles? If you can't understand what would be appealing to a casual player, or to a soloer, about a game where advancement is equalized and soloers can achieve end-game content, what does it matter? Is there not enough virtual game-space for such a game?
Or, are you just worried that all the casual players and soloers will leave the raid, power-gaming style games for games like Alganaon, and leave nobody in your games for you to feel superior to? I don't really see any other reason to argue against such a game. I don't understand why people like to play SIMS; I don't understand why people like to do a lot of the things they do, but I don't argue that companies shouldn't make products for the market they represent.
Why do you feel you need to do it in teh same number of days as the other person?
I don't feel the "need" to do anything; I'm not playing any MMOG right now. It's not a need. I'd like to play a game where my character's advancement in an MMO is not tied to "how much time I have to play", but is entirely based on my strategy for advancing him her, and such advancement would be equal to what any other player can do. I"m not saying it's better for everyone, or that everyone would enjoy it, or that all the games out there that currently favor powergamers/raiders should be terminated.
As it is, I have my game - Alganon. I promise not to bring my offline-advanced Alaganon character into your game and ruin it for you, okay?
If you don't play as much as others, you don't deserve to progress at the same pace as them. That's all there is to it. Go play a single player game if it bothers you, because you don't belong to MMO's.
Fortunately, the makers of Alganon disagree with you. What people "deserve" in any game, is whatever the programmers decide to reward, or not reward.
If you don't play as much as others, you don't deserve to progress at the same pace as them. That's all there is to it. Go play a single player game if it bothers you, because you don't belong to MMO's.
Fortunately, the makers of Alganon disagree with you. What people "deserve" in any game, is whatever the programmers decide to reward, or not reward.
And that is all there is to it.
No, see you want rewards for no or little effort. That is not how it works. To earn the good rewards in anything be it video games or in RL, you have to put in a lot of effort. That is how you reward someone.
What people "deserve" is what they put into it. And that is all there is to it. PERIOD.
Why do you feel you need to do it in teh same number of days as the other person?
I don't feel the "need" to do anything; I'm not playing any MMOG right now. It's not a need. I'd like to play a game where my character's advancement in an MMO is not tied to "how much time I have to play", but is entirely based on my strategy for advancing him her, and such advancement would be equal to what any other player can do. I"m not saying it's better for everyone, or that everyone would enjoy it, or that all the games out there that currently favor powergamers/raiders should be terminated.
As it is, I have my game - Alganon. I promise not to bring my offline-advanced Alaganon character into your game and ruin it for you, okay?
I do not understand how allowing you to advance your character off line is going to be good. It will not teach you how to play that character. So you have a max lvl character that you have no idea how to play, how is that going to be good for anyone.
Just go buy a max toon off Ebay and call it a day. That in the end is all your asking for. All the rewards with little to no effort on your part. If you do not want to put in the time amd effprt, you should not get the best rewards. Just like in RL, if you do not want to put in the time and effort, then you do not get the best jobs, cars, houses, ect.
Originally posted by Ihmotepp Personally, I don't understand this mentality. If there's a level cap, there's no difference between you and the power leveler. You will both do the same quests, and kill the same number of Mobs to reach the same cap. Why do you feel you need to do it in teh same number of days as the other person? What if we went on a mountain hike to see a waterfall? I run to the top of the mountain and see the waterfall, then run back down and I'm a Kenyan marathon runner. I do it in 30 minutes. You take all day to get to the top and back down again. Woudl you feel cheated because I did it faster than you, or woudl you say we both saw the waterfall and we both had an enjoyable experiennce? Does the speed really make such a difference for you? Would you say, well if he can do it 30 minutes I just dont' want to do it at all? Would this make you a second rate citizen because you got the same experience, but did it at a slower pace?
The reason why fairness does not come into picture here is because you and the marathon runner are not actually in a competition to see the waterfall. It's not like only the first person to the top will get to see it and they turn it off for everyone else.
So if a game does not impose a competition on the leveling process then it becomes irrelevant how one player levels in comparison to another player.
So if the OP wants to level a character while being offline that is up to him PROVIDED he never uses that fact against another player. ie. no ganking lower levels or bragging how leet you are that you are a high level.
No, see you want rewards for no or little effort. That is not how it works. To earn the good rewards in anything be it video games or in RL, you have to put in a lot of effort. That is how you reward someone. What people "deserve" is what they put into it. And that is all there is to it. PERIOD.
Untrue. Perhaps you and I do not share the same "real world". People win lotteries. People are born into rich families. People are born with talents others do not have; some are born very intelligent, some very stupid. Some people are born to a starving family in a third world; some are born as the sons of royalty. As much as you, or others, might like to imagine that the bottom line to success in the world is hard work and effort, just as often sheer luck and inspiration, talent or "who you know" plays a much more significant role.
Also, your claim that I want rewards for little or no effort is odd. The effort that I am investing in the game is represented by the subscription fee. I work for that money. I expect a return on it. In life, I invest that money where it will give me the most return; stocks, retirement accounts, material investments like cars or houses. The value of those investments go up not because I invest any additional work, but rather because I successfully manage them by directing my assets.
If you wish to play games where your character is advanced by your own 1 on 1 face time at the computer, I have no problem with that, any more than I have a problem with people that earn all their money by working jobs that pay by the hour. I guess you think it is cheating when people invest in property or stocks and make money for doing nothing other than buying the stock, and waiting?
What people deserve, in games, and in life, has nothing whatsoever to do with what they get. This is why innocent people go to jail, and criminals can get away with their crimes; this is why the rich invest money, and politicians get kickbacks and bribes; and why people with the "work for an hour" mentality usually end up living paycheck to paycheck. Do you really think that in life you get what you "deserve"? That seems to be whining that such a game - like Alganon - would be "unfair".
The reason why fairness does not come into picture here is because you and the marathon runner are not actually in a competition to see the waterfall. It's not like only the first person to the top will get to see it and they turn it off for everyone else. So if a game does not impose a competition on the leveling process then it becomes irrelevant how one player levels in comparison to another player. So if the OP wants to level a character while being offline that is up to him PROVIDED he never uses that fact against another player. ie. no ganking lower levels or bragging how leet you are that you are a high level.
I haven't complained about any game being unfair, nor have I ever complained about being "ganked"; those are your issues, not mine. What I'm interested in is a game that provides me with the capacity to advance my character at the same rate as anyone else, where my strategy for advancment is what seperates my character from others, not how much time I personally have to play the game.
If I get ganked by a team of other players, or by a higher-leveled player, and they brag about it, so what? it's part of the game. You seem to think this is about "a fair game", when it is not; it's about a particular kind of game that endorses, respects, and values the casual and solo market to the point of making them equals to powergamers and raiders. Is that unfair to big uberguilds and poweramers, who have more time to invest but will gain no meaningful reward for their capacity to raid, or stay online for massive hours?
Perhaps not, but there are all sorts of games for them to go play where "time invested" is the major means of advancing their characters, and raiding is the means by which the best rewards are distributed. Why should they begrudgeone MMO game devoted to the casual and the solo player in this fashion?
No, see you want rewards for no or little effort. That is not how it works. To earn the good rewards in anything be it video games or in RL, you have to put in a lot of effort. That is how you reward someone. What people "deserve" is what they put into it. And that is all there is to it. PERIOD.
Untrue. Perhaps you and I do not share the same "real world". People win lotteries. People are born into rich families. People are born with talents others do not have; some are born very intelligent, some very stupid. Some people are born to a starving family in a third world; some are born as the sons of royalty. As much as you, or others, might like to imagine that the bottom line to success in the world is hard work and effort, just as often sheer luck and inspiration, talent or "who you know" plays a much more significant role.
Also, your claim that I want rewards for little or no effort is odd. The effort that I am investing in the game is represented by the subscription fee. I work for that money. I expect a return on it. In life, I invest that money where it will give me the most return; stocks, retirement accounts, material investments like cars or houses. The value of those investments go up not because I invest any additional work, but rather because I successfully manage them by directing my assets.
If you wish to play games where your character is advanced by your own 1 on 1 face time at the computer, I have no problem with that, any more than I have a problem with people that earn all their money by working jobs that pay by the hour. I guess you think it is cheating when people invest in property or stocks and make money for doing nothing other than buying the stock, and waiting?
What people deserve, in games, and in life, has nothing whatsoever to do with what they get. This is why innocent people go to jail, and criminals can get away with their crimes; this is why the rich invest money, and politicians get kickbacks and bribes; and why people with the "work for an hour" mentality usually end up living paycheck to paycheck. Do you really think that in life you get what you "deserve"? That seems to be whining that such a game - like Alganon - would be "unfair".
Life is unfair. Get over it.
Again there are always execptions to the rules. All that you speak about are the exceptions. Yes I think that in life you get what you earn. I think that is very true. IF you put in the time and effort you get rewarded in life. I have seen it a million times.
Life is unfair and so is gaming. So maybe you need to get over it. If you do not have enough time to keep up with the hardcore gamers then you do not get the rewards or levels as fast as they do.
I do not understand how allowing you to advance your character off line is going to be good. It will not teach you how to play that character. So you have a max lvl character that you have no idea how to play, how is that going to be good for anyone. Just go buy a max toon off Ebay and call it a day. That in the end is all your asking for. All the rewards with little to no effort on your part. If you do not want to put in the time amd effprt, you should not get the best rewards. Just like in RL, if you do not want to put in the time and effort, then you do not get the best jobs, cars, houses, ect.
Yes, I will need to spend enough time online to learn how to play my character. You also don't understand that the study system doesn't increase your levels, it provides you with the capacity to advance through them quickly. You still have to spend enough time online to learn to use them, and to activate them, and to find materials, and to explore the game, and to collect money to buy stuff, etc. Study "prepares" your character to advance, you don't log on to find that you are max level. You still have to activate the levels via minimal to moderate online time. Also, study is required to prepare down many different avenues, but you can only set your character to study one thing at a time. You have to manage your study time and decide what is important to you to advance in. As I said, it's more of a strategy type of scenario.
And no, I'm not asking for a ready-made max toon; I want to develop the "toon" myself through my management of study time and what he/she spends their time studying, not banging keys repetitively for hours and hours and hours. Again, this is like an investment or strategy/management scenario, and not just brute "online time" key-banging. It's a different kind of game. Cal it a "character development strategy game" if you like, in an MMO setting.
Comments
While I"m not there, why shouldn't it? Why should I pay the same subscription rate as powergamers and raiders, and only be capable of having a 2nd rate character with 3rd class rewards because of time restrictions?
Hey, in any event, that's what Alganon is doing, so I've found my game. You can have yours.
why should you pay for something you are barely going to use? it is illogical.
its like buying a car so someone else can drive it around (hell you are not even in that car)
You're mistaken; I am using it, because I set my character to develop while I'm away. It's like asking me why buy stock, if I'm not going to sit at my computer and watch the DOW all day long?
Also, I own lots of things I rarely ever use; in fact, I do own a car I drive once a week or so. What difference does it make to you how I spend my money? How often do you think Jay Leno drives any of his cars? I have a video collection of movies; care to guess how often I watch any of them?
if you drive your car once a week because of NEED then sure its usefull and you cant compare it to playing a videogame your life does not NEED.
Jay Leno has cars as a collection, different use
movies same argument of collection, different use
game character, not a collection. offline development of a character who logs on rarely in the world. why not just click to get max level? and you choose what gear you want and then press create character. (GuildWars PvP toons do that, you can have everything at max lvl right away for pvp only)
also equal stuff? why would a guy that plays 40 hours a week have the same thing as a guy who plays 2? equality is not part of MMOGs, the more you play the more you get thats how it works. you want equality get some FPS game or multiplayer adventure game, multiplayer simulators, or sports. not MMOGs.
by what you tell me you seem like the type of guy/girl who will buy a 6000 USD$ computer and simply use microsoft office and youtube.
Everyone is not created equal.
You don't deserve anything simply because you are alive, you have to work for it.
Life isn't fair.
Get over it and grow up.
Why are you not playing a single player game? Why would you pay a monthly fee when a single player game is all you need? Why would you want your game to finish when you was offline when you buy games to play them? Those are some questions you need to ask yourself.
So, your argument is that you "need" to play video games? I don't need the car at all; I enjoy it driving it once a week or so. I don't live my life by some min/max efficiency/logic ratio. I do what I enjoy.
How you view your online gaming experience, and how others view theirs, does not have to be the same. You seem to think that the only reason anyone plays such games are for the reasons you do, or for the reasons you can imagine. Note how you are trying to talk someone out of what they know they enjoy. Do you also try to talk people out of enjoying apple pie, or the color red?
I agree that up until now, there hasn't been such equality in MMOGs, but that's an artificial separation. Alganon is coding it into the game; you believe that the deciding factor for the development of one's online character should be how much time the player has to invest; that's fine with me. There are many games that support your idea of how such a character should be developed. Yet, you seem to be threatened by others who might want to play an online game from a different perspective.
My perspective is that the character, hypothetically, shouldn't be limited to how much time the player has to play, but rather could be an ongoing virtual entity that is "active" 24/7 in that world. That makes it more of a "virtual world" IMO, more immersive. Also, it eliminates arbitrary real-life limitations of the players that make it easy for some players to excel, and impossible for others to get much farther than very low levels. After all, the virtual world is "going on" 24/7; why shouldn't every character in the game be set to "go on" 24/7?
I want a progressive character in an online community, much like most MMOGs, that I can set to advance while offline not because I don't want to play, but because I want to play, and compete with other players, and be in a community environment, but - like many, many players - I have little time to do so. When I can actually play, I want to log in and enjoy the progress my character has made, and do what I can when I'm actually on. This kind of system equalizes the characters in a basic way, so the differences in characters isn't all about "who has the most time to play", but rather the strategy one employs in setting their character studies, and what they as a player bring to the table other than how much time they have to play.
"The way it works" when it comes to loot distribution is however it is coded. Once again, I'm not saying all such games should be this way, but you seem to be saying that no game should even try such a solo & casual-player-friendly game.
I don't enjoy single-player games. I don't "need" any games; I enjoy MMOG communities. I don't want my game to "finish" when I am offline; I want my character to progress at the same rate as anyone else's.
The question you need to ask yourself is, why does it bother you that other people want something different in MMOGs? Do you not have enough games that serve the same "time is king" standard?
Yes it is......
There are no other live players around when I play a single-player mmo.
There is no constantly updated and changing, evolving content.
When you're trying to convince someone they want something they don't want, you've already lost the argument.
This is the main reason that people go for playing MMOs solo. If you buy a single player game, run through it in 2 weeks then you have to purchase another single player game. Yes companies come out with expansions and such but they cannot compete with what MMOs offer in the form of constant updates.
I don't understand why people find soloing so hard to understand or why when someone says they want to solo raiders and groupers jump on them like they are a threat to the very being of MMOs.
""But Coyote, you could learn! You only prefer keyboard and mouse because that's all you've ever known!" You might say right before you hug a rainforest and walk in sandals to your drum circle where you're trying to raise group consciousness of ladybugs or whatever it is you dirty goddamn hippies do when you're not busy smoking pot and smelling bad."
Coyote's Howling: Death of the Computer
If you don't play as much as others, you don't deserve to progress at the same pace as them.
That's all there is to it. Go play a single player game if it bothers you, because you don't belong to MMO's.
Thats because people that design and create mmo's have the thought of bringing people together to play a game as a community, i understand that not everyone wants to play together but the only argument ive seen so far in this thread is that some people want all the single player mechanics minus the community but add in updates. Thats not what this market is designed for, granted i wouldnt be suprised if we start seeing more and more single player games like that, but we arent their yet. The fact still remains that this is a multiplayer community and the fact that people who have next to no time want everything to the people who have abit more time (and im not talking about people who play 40+ hours aweek) handed to them via no effort. Want a game that plays itself? fine, just dont think that youll be apart of the community, those people tend to be blacklisted from communities such as this one cause your not capable or understand the basic mechanics of the online gaming formula, which guess what...is muliplayer cooperation.
I do work for it, and pay for it, exactly the same amount as anyone else pays for the game. Also, I don't have to "get over it", because as I said, Alganon is doing exactly what I have described.
I do work for it, and pay for it, exactly the same amount as anyone else pays for the game. Also, I don't have to "get over it", because as I said, Alganon is doing exactly what I have described.
We just have to hope that no other company follows Alganon's example then.
^agreed^
As a casual, i would never play this type of game. But I've created a POLL in a seperate thread to see who would.
While I"m not there, why shouldn't it? Why should I pay the same subscription rate as powergamers and raiders, and only be capable of having a 2nd rate character with 3rd class rewards because of time restrictions?
Hey, in any event, that's what Alganon is doing, so I've found my game. You can have yours.
The game isn't really unfair to anyone if you look at Content completed rather than Days, Weeks, or Months played.
You do a quest, you gain xp. You kill a Mob, you gain xp. All players that do quests, or Kill Mobs, gain the same XP. Sure, someone playing 40 hours a week will kill more Mobs and do more quests than you per WEEK, but they don't get any more xp othan you do when you kill the same amount of Mobs or do the same amount of quests.
There is a small amount of "unfairness". You are both paying 14.95 a month to play.
The person playing 40 hours a week will get through more content than you during the month, but at 14.95 per month it's so cheap does taht really matter?
If you both play for 10 months, you'll each pay 150 bucks. How much more value diid the person playing a lot per week really get than you? 50 dollars more? Is that really enough to complain about over the course of 10 months?
And really, what you are paying for is not teh HOUR of gameplay.
You are paying for the ACCESS 24/7. The game is there for you 24 hours a day, whenever you want to play. It's like belonging to a gym. Sure, some people go to the gym EVERY day, and work out 4 hours a day. Others go twice a week for 30 minutes, but they pay the same membership.
man ever heard of second rate citizens or lower class...thats where i am and i live life like the "powergamers" don't play MMos then i mean there is in no possiable way to equal the advancement of characters while offline to the gamer who can play 40 hours+ a week...However i also know nothing of this study system but it still seems as raiding would just be a lot easier...look i don't know you but if you really can't spare three hours in atleast one day a week...i feel sorry for you and you need to check and change your dailylife to have some more free time
man ever heard of second rate citizens or lower class...thats where i am and i live life like the "powergamers" don't play MMos then i mean there is in no possiable way to equal the advancement of characters while offline to the gamer who can play 40 hours+ a week...However i also know nothing of this study system but it still seems as raiding would just be a lot easier...look i don't know you but if you really can't spare three hours in atleast one day a week...i feel sorry for you and you need to check and change your dailylife to have some more free time
Personally, I don't understand this mentality. If there's a level cap, there's no difference between you and the power leveler.
You will both do the same quests, and kill the same number of Mobs to reach the same cap.
Why do you feel you need to do it in teh same number of days as the other person?
What if we went on a mountain hike to see a waterfall? I run to the top of the mountain and see the waterfall, then run back down and I'm a Kenyan marathon runner. I do it in 30 minutes. You take all day to get to the top and back down again.
Woudl you feel cheated because I did it faster than you, or woudl you say we both saw the waterfall and we both had an enjoyable experiennce? Does the speed really make such a difference for you? Would you say, well if he can do it 30 minutes I just dont' want to do it at all?
Would this make you a second rate citizen because you got the same experience, but did it at a slower pace?
While I"m not there, why shouldn't it? Why should I pay the same subscription rate as powergamers and raiders, and only be capable of having a 2nd rate character with 3rd class rewards because of time restrictions?
Hey, in any event, that's what Alganon is doing, so I've found my game. You can have yours.
The game isn't really unfair to anyone if you look at Content completed rather than Days, Weeks, or Months played.
You do a quest, you gain xp. You kill a Mob, you gain xp. All players that do quests, or Kill Mobs, gain the same XP. Sure, someone playing 40 hours a week will kill more Mobs and do more quests than you per WEEK, but they don't get any more xp othan you do when you kill the same amount of Mobs or do the same amount of quests.
There is a small amount of "unfairness". You are both paying 14.95 a month to play.
The person playing 40 hours a week will get through more content than you during the month, but at 14.95 per month it's so cheap does taht really matter?
If you both play for 10 months, you'll each pay 150 bucks. How much more value diid the person playing a lot per week really get than you? 50 dollars more? Is that really enough to complain about over the course of 10 months?
And really, what you are paying for is not teh HOUR of gameplay.
You are paying for the ACCESS 24/7. The game is there for you 24 hours a day, whenever you want to play. It's like belonging to a gym. Sure, some people go to the gym EVERY day, and work out 4 hours a day. Others go twice a week for 30 minutes, but they pay the same membership.
I never called the way things are "unfair". I'm not "complaining" about the way games are now, any more than I would complain about the way any particular model of cars or trucks are built. They are built to sell to a certain market.
What I'm advocating is a different design for a new car. Apparently, the makers of Alaganon agree. Why should I pay $15 a month for ACCESS to a game I might use 10 hrs a week, when another game comes out and offers me full use, 24/7? This is what you're not understanding, I'm not claiming that the "access/unequal advancement" system is wrong; I'm advocating that, while that is one model companies have been using, there is another model that might target another part of the market.
I don't really understand what the debate is about. Would you argue that trucks shouldn't be made, because you prefer sports cars? Or that vans, or motorcycles shouldn't be made, because you don't understand what would be appealing about such vehicles? If you can't understand what would be appealing to a casual player, or to a soloer, about a game where advancement is equalized and soloers can achieve end-game content, what does it matter? Is there not enough virtual game-space for such a game?
Or, are you just worried that all the casual players and soloers will leave the raid, power-gaming style games for games like Alganaon, and leave nobody in your games for you to feel superior to? I don't really see any other reason to argue against such a game. I don't understand why people like to play SIMS; I don't understand why people like to do a lot of the things they do, but I don't argue that companies shouldn't make products for the market they represent.
I don't feel the "need" to do anything; I'm not playing any MMOG right now. It's not a need. I'd like to play a game where my character's advancement in an MMO is not tied to "how much time I have to play", but is entirely based on my strategy for advancing him her, and such advancement would be equal to what any other player can do. I"m not saying it's better for everyone, or that everyone would enjoy it, or that all the games out there that currently favor powergamers/raiders should be terminated.
As it is, I have my game - Alganon. I promise not to bring my offline-advanced Alaganon character into your game and ruin it for you, okay?
Fortunately, the makers of Alganon disagree with you. What people "deserve" in any game, is whatever the programmers decide to reward, or not reward.
And that is all there is to it.
Fortunately, the makers of Alganon disagree with you. What people "deserve" in any game, is whatever the programmers decide to reward, or not reward.
And that is all there is to it.
No, see you want rewards for no or little effort. That is not how it works. To earn the good rewards in anything be it video games or in RL, you have to put in a lot of effort. That is how you reward someone.
What people "deserve" is what they put into it. And that is all there is to it. PERIOD.
Sooner or Later
I don't feel the "need" to do anything; I'm not playing any MMOG right now. It's not a need. I'd like to play a game where my character's advancement in an MMO is not tied to "how much time I have to play", but is entirely based on my strategy for advancing him her, and such advancement would be equal to what any other player can do. I"m not saying it's better for everyone, or that everyone would enjoy it, or that all the games out there that currently favor powergamers/raiders should be terminated.
As it is, I have my game - Alganon. I promise not to bring my offline-advanced Alaganon character into your game and ruin it for you, okay?
I do not understand how allowing you to advance your character off line is going to be good. It will not teach you how to play that character. So you have a max lvl character that you have no idea how to play, how is that going to be good for anyone.
Just go buy a max toon off Ebay and call it a day. That in the end is all your asking for. All the rewards with little to no effort on your part. If you do not want to put in the time amd effprt, you should not get the best rewards. Just like in RL, if you do not want to put in the time and effort, then you do not get the best jobs, cars, houses, ect.
Sooner or Later
The reason why fairness does not come into picture here is because you and the marathon runner are not actually in a competition to see the waterfall. It's not like only the first person to the top will get to see it and they turn it off for everyone else.
So if a game does not impose a competition on the leveling process then it becomes irrelevant how one player levels in comparison to another player.
So if the OP wants to level a character while being offline that is up to him PROVIDED he never uses that fact against another player. ie. no ganking lower levels or bragging how leet you are that you are a high level.
Untrue. Perhaps you and I do not share the same "real world". People win lotteries. People are born into rich families. People are born with talents others do not have; some are born very intelligent, some very stupid. Some people are born to a starving family in a third world; some are born as the sons of royalty. As much as you, or others, might like to imagine that the bottom line to success in the world is hard work and effort, just as often sheer luck and inspiration, talent or "who you know" plays a much more significant role.
Also, your claim that I want rewards for little or no effort is odd. The effort that I am investing in the game is represented by the subscription fee. I work for that money. I expect a return on it. In life, I invest that money where it will give me the most return; stocks, retirement accounts, material investments like cars or houses. The value of those investments go up not because I invest any additional work, but rather because I successfully manage them by directing my assets.
If you wish to play games where your character is advanced by your own 1 on 1 face time at the computer, I have no problem with that, any more than I have a problem with people that earn all their money by working jobs that pay by the hour. I guess you think it is cheating when people invest in property or stocks and make money for doing nothing other than buying the stock, and waiting?
What people deserve, in games, and in life, has nothing whatsoever to do with what they get. This is why innocent people go to jail, and criminals can get away with their crimes; this is why the rich invest money, and politicians get kickbacks and bribes; and why people with the "work for an hour" mentality usually end up living paycheck to paycheck. Do you really think that in life you get what you "deserve"? That seems to be whining that such a game - like Alganon - would be "unfair".
Life is unfair. Get over it.
I haven't complained about any game being unfair, nor have I ever complained about being "ganked"; those are your issues, not mine. What I'm interested in is a game that provides me with the capacity to advance my character at the same rate as anyone else, where my strategy for advancment is what seperates my character from others, not how much time I personally have to play the game.
If I get ganked by a team of other players, or by a higher-leveled player, and they brag about it, so what? it's part of the game. You seem to think this is about "a fair game", when it is not; it's about a particular kind of game that endorses, respects, and values the casual and solo market to the point of making them equals to powergamers and raiders. Is that unfair to big uberguilds and poweramers, who have more time to invest but will gain no meaningful reward for their capacity to raid, or stay online for massive hours?
Perhaps not, but there are all sorts of games for them to go play where "time invested" is the major means of advancing their characters, and raiding is the means by which the best rewards are distributed. Why should they begrudgeone MMO game devoted to the casual and the solo player in this fashion?
Untrue. Perhaps you and I do not share the same "real world". People win lotteries. People are born into rich families. People are born with talents others do not have; some are born very intelligent, some very stupid. Some people are born to a starving family in a third world; some are born as the sons of royalty. As much as you, or others, might like to imagine that the bottom line to success in the world is hard work and effort, just as often sheer luck and inspiration, talent or "who you know" plays a much more significant role.
Also, your claim that I want rewards for little or no effort is odd. The effort that I am investing in the game is represented by the subscription fee. I work for that money. I expect a return on it. In life, I invest that money where it will give me the most return; stocks, retirement accounts, material investments like cars or houses. The value of those investments go up not because I invest any additional work, but rather because I successfully manage them by directing my assets.
If you wish to play games where your character is advanced by your own 1 on 1 face time at the computer, I have no problem with that, any more than I have a problem with people that earn all their money by working jobs that pay by the hour. I guess you think it is cheating when people invest in property or stocks and make money for doing nothing other than buying the stock, and waiting?
What people deserve, in games, and in life, has nothing whatsoever to do with what they get. This is why innocent people go to jail, and criminals can get away with their crimes; this is why the rich invest money, and politicians get kickbacks and bribes; and why people with the "work for an hour" mentality usually end up living paycheck to paycheck. Do you really think that in life you get what you "deserve"? That seems to be whining that such a game - like Alganon - would be "unfair".
Life is unfair. Get over it.
Again there are always execptions to the rules. All that you speak about are the exceptions. Yes I think that in life you get what you earn. I think that is very true. IF you put in the time and effort you get rewarded in life. I have seen it a million times.
Life is unfair and so is gaming. So maybe you need to get over it. If you do not have enough time to keep up with the hardcore gamers then you do not get the rewards or levels as fast as they do.
Sooner or Later
Yes, I will need to spend enough time online to learn how to play my character. You also don't understand that the study system doesn't increase your levels, it provides you with the capacity to advance through them quickly. You still have to spend enough time online to learn to use them, and to activate them, and to find materials, and to explore the game, and to collect money to buy stuff, etc. Study "prepares" your character to advance, you don't log on to find that you are max level. You still have to activate the levels via minimal to moderate online time. Also, study is required to prepare down many different avenues, but you can only set your character to study one thing at a time. You have to manage your study time and decide what is important to you to advance in. As I said, it's more of a strategy type of scenario.
And no, I'm not asking for a ready-made max toon; I want to develop the "toon" myself through my management of study time and what he/she spends their time studying, not banging keys repetitively for hours and hours and hours. Again, this is like an investment or strategy/management scenario, and not just brute "online time" key-banging. It's a different kind of game. Cal it a "character development strategy game" if you like, in an MMO setting.