The only more recent mmo I can think of that I've enjoyed is Linkrealms because it has an old school flavour to it. UO , EQ , SB , DAOC , FFXI , RO were all great for their time and still hold up today as great games. I think the problem is , now that mmos have become much more mainstream due to the success of WoW it's the suits dictating to the developers how games should be made. A good game to me is a game that is acting un-acting acting , it's a videogame at it's core but it is designed so thoroughly and intelligently that you feel like your in another world and not just a "videogame" UO in it's earlier days captured that magic quite well.
Don't be so sure. Dungoens & Dragons Online (DDO) aren't anything like WoW, and it's 3rd year of this game starting just now. I think it's the newest the best doing of oldschool mmorpgs. Now I know why I love this game so much, and prefer above others - it's oldschool at it's heart and it's core. Some of that what I loved in UO is there. Of course, not sanbox playstyle or crafting, not player cities - these don't exist in DDO, at least in that form from Ultima. Real crafting isn't even finished yet.
Though for me it's the best trade off at the moment, mixing oldschool, intense skill / ability use, near limitless customization, and modern. But not in that most popular, "only true" WoW-rip off style.
The only more recent mmo I can think of that I've enjoyed is Linkrealms because it has an old school flavour to it. UO , EQ , SB , DAOC , FFXI , RO were all great for their time and still hold up today as great games. I think the problem is , now that mmos have become much more mainstream due to the success of WoW it's the suits dictating to the developers how games should be made. A good game to me is a game that is acting un-acting acting , it's a videogame at it's core but it is designed so thoroughly and intelligently that you feel like your in another world and not just a "videogame" UO in it's earlier days captured that magic quite well.
Don't be so sure. Dungoens & Dragons Online (DDO) aren't anything like WoW, and it's 3rd year of this game starting just now. I think it's the newest the best doing of oldschool mmorpgs. Now I know why I love this game so much, and prefer above others - it's oldschool at it's heart and it's core. Some of that what I loved in UO is there. Of course, not sanbox playstyle or crafting, not player cities - these don't exist in DDO, at least in that form from Ultima. Real crafting isn't even finished yet.
Though for me it's the best trade off at the moment, mixing oldschool, intense skill / ability use, near limitless customization, and modern. But not in that most popular, "only true" WoW-rip off style.
Personally I group DDO with guildwars, Diablo, NWN as Co-op Rpgs or CRPG. great games though and Both GW and DDO show the evolution of that genre.
Todays new MMos could learn alot from the DDO dungeons they're fun.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Personally I group DDO with guildwars, Diablo, NWN as Co-op Rpgs or CRPG. great games though and Both GW and DDO show the evolution of that genre.
Hmm. Than you really can't know much about present DDO. It's not any less MMORPG than WoW or LotrO. It's just in other style, with better quests, and less PvP. But yes, there are frequent PvP fights, just not as frequent as in WoW or it's clones like WAR (which I played too).
DDO is nothing like GW. I have big experience with GW and it's expansions. Yes, that game is nothing like MMO for me, no community else than PvP matches. DDO is absolutely different. We have probably one of the strongest and warm communities, something I didn't see playing WoW, WAR, hell... most other games. GW is like massively online deathmatch, but DDO isn't massively online cRPG. It's an MMO of bones and blood, very vibrant now, too.
Soon, coming with Module 9 are changes to better show it to newer players. And generally nice changes, like global general, trade and help chats, so people like you will probably see how much MMO life is going on there . After Module 9 comes live (probably about a month of wait? hard to tell), I suggest to try and see for yourself. Gaining first 3 levels isn't enough to know this game, though, so be aware of it . It's very complex and deep MMO.
Personally I group DDO with guildwars, Diablo, NWN as Co-op Rpgs or CRPG. great games though and Both GW and DDO show the evolution of that genre.
Hmm. Than you really can't know much about present DDO. It's not any less MMORPG than WoW or LotrO. It's just in other style, with better quests, and less PvP. But yes, there are frequent PvP fights, just not as frequent as in WoW or it's clones like WAR (which I played too).
DDO is nothing like GW. I have big experience with GW and it's expansions. Yes, that game is nothing like MMO for me, no community else than PvP matches. DDO is absolutely different. We have probably one of the strongest and warm communities, something I didn't see playing WoW, WAR, hell... most other games. GW is like massively online deathmatch, but DDO isn't massively online cRPG. It's an MMO of bones and blood, very vibrant now, too.
Soon, coming with Module 9 are changes to better show it to newer players. And generally nice changes, like global general, trade and help chats, so people like you will probably see how much MMO life is going on there . After Module 9 comes live (probably about a month of wait? hard to tell), I suggest to try and see for yourself. Gaining first 3 levels isn't enough to know this game, though, so be aware of it . It's very complex and deep MMO.
I tried DDO right after it released if they added a open world to explore in that time then I apologize.
I remember DDO being a bunch player hubs with a few instances in them each.
I've been downloading a bunch of old MMOs lately (mostly games 5+ years old) Games like Shadowbane, AO, DAoC, Ragnarok, AC1 and Free shards of EQ,SWG,UO. Seriously really good experiences the last month or so. Hell even the game I play fulltime (Eve) is six years old and amazing. Makes me sad that for me the new mmos just don't stack up. Sure new mmos have better graphics and are usually easier to use with advance maps that push you to quests and the absence of a mess up death penalty. I just can't help but feel that these games haven't evolved the genre at all. Go play shadowbane and tell me the genre has evolved the city building mechanic at all. Go play UO (FS) and tell me these new games give you more gameplay options. Go play DAoC and tell me these new MMOs even compete with the three way faction wars you can have.Go play AO and tell me the genre has evolved on their solo dungeon mechanic. Go play EQ,SWG or AC1 and tell me mmos have evolved on the world simulation aspect of those games. I bet you can't. How does a genre regress and still become more popular? what the hell is going on? Shouldn't we want a more advance world simulation? more advance character progression? more advance features? more advance crafting? more advance city building? Why are games with less features accepted by todays community? Graphics? less of a learning curve makes new games more enjoyable? Because a game adds cartoon graphics, instanced dungeons and instanced pvp thats evolution of the genre? I seriously cannot see how anyone that played these old games can accept the current crop of MMOs. I played UO/EQ and DAoC a very long time ago and not until recently have I realized how truely epic those games are compared to whats currently offered. Maybe if players would go back and fill up DAoC, AC, AO and other older game servers these new devs will get the hint. Anyway just a quick rant thanks for reading.
Edit: I am in no way promoting Free shard or illegal private server use, its only an example of how older games were actually better back then. and how far the genre has fallen imo.
It's natural for the genres to go up and down no matter what it is... due to popularity and marketing.
In games... ones like WoW come out and market simply for popularity. The more players they get the better, and they are willing to dumb down the game to be more welcoming.
It happens in entertainment as well. Take music - whatever your favorite music genre is. Chances are, it is not in its "purest" form anymore - "pop" artists will start becoming more widespread and pretty much tainting the music genre. People will be saying these new popular artists/bands are "the best ever!"... but being a true fan of the pure form of the genre, you will know this is not true. Also, notice how your favorite musicians eventually degrade in quality - they simply arent as hungry for it as they used to be, and inevitably get tainted by the lure of more money.
It becomes a job, instead of something they love to do.
Look at the "sequels" of games made by the same companies. AC1-AC2.. 2 catered far more to the "general population"... daoc to WAR... war caters more to the "general population"... EQ1 to EQ2 same thing....
There is already games like WoW to welcome players to the genre, once they are ready for something deeper... they would have it if there were companies making them. There are players all over out there looking for something deeper... but their options are so limited and many players will not be satisfied with games that are older/more outdated.
They all but forgotten about making MMO games for the MMO fans. They make the games for sales instead. They do not realize that if they made a MMO game for the real MMO players and not new MMO players, the players would come, because they will be looking for something deeper after the MMO's that welcome them to the genre...
After EQ nothing has been the same ever since. What people call progress i call setbacks. We have effectivly killed
1. Power levelling
2. Non instanced dungeons
3. Buffs (Yes plenty of MMO's have buffs today but to a very limited extent and a less usefull degree compared to EQ)
4. Travel buffs and group teleportation spells since it is all about the mounts now
5. No xp penalties from deaths. It sucked to lose exp but it taught you to be a better player and remember the bad ones.
6. No more mob trains. Again sucked to be wiped out from a train but it added an edge to the game that also were part of making you a better player.
7. Mobs that would visibly be wearing the weapon they would drop.
8. Lack of character classes. Now we have classes being able to take on multiple roles cutting classes down to a very few. 5 -7 seems to be the magic numbers at release these days.
9. Prepaid cards. In the old days kids were rare in MMORPGS because there were no such thing as a prepaid card. Kids would have to borrow mom or dads credit card which didn't happen often. When i played EQ i could count on 1 hand how many kids i ran into. Vanguard seemed to keep kids away with the more hardcore approach to PvE which i enjoyed as well.
10. Corpse run. Dying in a dangerous spot and having to retrieve your corpse with your gear was sometimes nerve wrecking. It made you care about if you died or not and where you died as well.
I could go on but i wont. I can't go back to EQ again since the game has too many expansions, too little influx of new players and a low playerbase. If EQ wiped all their servers completely and relaunched today with a fresh batch of players i would go back and play it for a couple of years again for sure.
As it is my most beloved genre is dead with EQ and DaoC. All i can get today and the future is mediocre MMO experiences. But i still have hope somebody will create a gem someday.
I too enjoyed playing some of the old games after I left EQ and WoW.
It was also interesting see how many ideas were used from the old games by WoW and EQ2.
I do not go back and replay MMO's that I formerly played . I left them because I was bored and looking for something different. Its too time consuming and expensive to download and reinstall an old game, purchase any expansions that came out since you last played and then pay a subscription fee. All of this on the off chance that your interest in the game may be rekindled.
Old MMO's are usually relatively bug free.
For someone playing a particular old MMO for the first, it has its own appeal.
Some of the players in the thread complain about how contemporary MMO's are easier etc.
Well I agree and I strongly believe that a lot of newcomers to the MMO genre since a few years have been kids. Many children now have internet access, this didn't used to be the case, the internet for children just boomed a few years ago, about the time WoW launched is when you had a huge influx of children online through cheaper internet, cheaper PCs, PCs in classrooms etc.
In a way I think a lot of games jumped on that and made MMO much too easy for adults or "intelligent players", whatever that means. You can't deny that most new MMO are just a shadow in difficulty of the former ones. Not only grind is easier, which is fine, but the whole game itself is super easy most of the time and requires almost no social interraction to advance, which is not fine imo.
Seems like MMOs have followed the same pattern as console games and single player games: - graphics have improved - polish has improved (drastically) - much more accessible - mainstream appeal is higher than ever On the flip side we have: - less depth/complexity - less features - less game play options - less appeal for the "core" crowd.
It desolates me to say that you are not only right, but probably to the core of the problem : esthetic has been improved, to the cost of what really matters. MMO's are now about grinding and quest that asks you to grind, with a bit of lore, yet no progression according to the player's action.
In wow, you could barely choose scryers vs aldor, with little impact. Bosses are already beaten not by epic guilds, but by beta testers, making guides to beat the bosses. WoW is one exemple, probably the most popular, which is what desolates me the most about gamers.
Yeah I do like older games as well, FFXI was my first MMO that I played a lot. I played EQ at a friends house for a while and played a month before my friends got me hooked on FFXI. But till this day I cant seem to find a game I like. Right now im beta testing a game and I have the LOTRO trial, which I really liked when I played when i first came out its just my internet got shut off and they wanted me to pay 200 bones to get it turned back on, but that's another entire story in its self.
So Im going to try the EQ trial and see how that goes and see how LOTRO goes. Other than that Im just going to wait till Fallen Earth comes out.
Sure .. and I start with UO beta & EQ .. both are pretty BAD games compared to WOW/. Reasons: 1) OPTION to solo >>>> forced groups. Hate to stand around with nothing to do Not true, Necros, Mages, Druids, Rangers and Beastlords could and can all solo. You can also tradeskill. 2) Quest >>> mob grinding. Level grinding in EQ is BORING Opinion. 3) Instance >>>> camping with 50 people in line to kill the boos EQ's high-end has had instances since PoP. Before WoW even came out. Where do you think WoW got the idea from in the first place?
4) script boss fight >>>> simple boss fight Almost every raid in EQ is scripted. A lot more than WoW. The WoW designers even based them of EQ and they recruited EQ players to help make them.
GG here 5) Low death penalty >>>> high death penalty and more need to grind There's almost no death penalty anymore, you can summon and buy your rez with a mercenary in EQ.
Enough reasons???? No, you're clueless about EQ, gratz. TRY AGAIN.
Sure .. and I start with UO beta & EQ .. both are pretty BAD games compared to WOW/. Reasons: 1) OPTION to solo >>>> forced groups. Hate to stand around with nothing to do Not true, Necros, Mages, Druids, Rangers and Beastlords could and can all solo. You can also tradeskill. I used to play a WIZ in EQ since beta. Not all class are soloable. They need to make every class soloable.
2) Quest >>> mob grinding. Level grinding in EQ is BORING Opinion. Of course. Fun is a subjective thing. And good news is that 11M people agree with me.
3) Instance >>>> camping with 50 people in line to kill the boos EQ's high-end has had instances since PoP. Before WoW even came out. Where do you think WoW got the idea from in the first place?
Not from the beginning before I quit. Plus there are a lot of non-instance dungeons that have HORRIBLE camping (that is of course in its heyday). All dungeons should be instanced.
5) Low death penalty >>>> high death penalty and more need to grind There's almost no death penalty anymore, you can summon and buy your rez with a mercenary in EQ. "ANYMORE" ... it was bad in the beginning. EQ is going the direction where WOW is today. It may be doing first, but it still lacks the polish. WOW is taking all good things about EQ and fixing all the bad .. and add polish. It makes WOW a much better GAME.
I'm disregarding your opinion because you know absolutely nothing about current EQ or old school EQ.
Not every class should be able to solo, that's your opinnion but that wasn't what EQ was about at all. If Verant wanted every class to solo they would have, the reason they didn't is so you would group.
If you wanted to solo you could, you picked a solo class, so your point is moot.
The instances have been in EQ for years, since 2002. WoW based the instance model on EQ.
I'm disregarding your opinion because you know absolutely nothing about current EQ or old school EQ. Not every class should be able to solo, that's your opinnion but that wasn't what EQ was about at all. If Verant wanted every class to solo they would have, the reason they didn't is so you would group. If you wanted to solo you could, you picked a solo class, so your point is moot.
The instances have been in EQ for years, since 2002. WoW based the instance model on EQ. Seriously, your post was garbage. edit: I can't spell
It was released in 1999 and I started as a beta tester. I don't see ur opinion as more valid and I will disregrad yours too.
If you can't see that WOW takes the EQ trend and does everything BETTER .. then too bad for you. The market has moved on as demonstrated succinctly by all the numbers. You can wallowed in the old glorious days as much as you want and we move on.
I'm disregarding your opinion because you know absolutely nothing about current EQ or old school EQ. Not every class should be able to solo, that's your opinnion but that wasn't what EQ was about at all. If Verant wanted every class to solo they would have, the reason they didn't is so you would group. If you wanted to solo you could, you picked a solo class, so your point is moot.
The instances have been in EQ for years, since 2002. WoW based the instance model on EQ. Seriously, your post was garbage. edit: I can't spell
It was released in 1999 and I started as a beta tester. I don't see ur opinion as more valid and I will disregrad yours too.
If you can't see that WOW takes the EQ trend and does everything BETTER .. then too bad for you. The market has moved on as demonstrated succinctly by all the numbers. You can wallowed in the old glorious days as much as you want and we move on.
For a beta tester you know shit.
Waterlily owned your ass in this thread and made you look ill informed and stupid.
She beat you down so bad you had to pull out the sub number topic LOL!
I'm disregarding your opinion because you know absolutely nothing about current EQ or old school EQ. Not every class should be able to solo, that's your opinnion but that wasn't what EQ was about at all. If Verant wanted every class to solo they would have, the reason they didn't is so you would group. If you wanted to solo you could, you picked a solo class, so your point is moot.
The instances have been in EQ for years, since 2002. WoW based the instance model on EQ. Seriously, your post was garbage. edit: I can't spell
It was released in 1999 and I started as a beta tester. I don't see ur opinion as more valid and I will disregrad yours too.
If you can't see that WOW takes the EQ trend and does everything BETTER .. then too bad for you. The market has moved on as demonstrated succinctly by all the numbers. You can wallowed in the old glorious days as much as you want and we move on.
For a beta tester you know shit.
Waterlily owned your ass in this thread and made you look ill informed and stupid.
She beat you down so bad you had to pull out the sub number topic LOL!
How very sad my friend move along.
The only classes that couldn't solo their way to 50 was the Warrior and Rogue out of 14 original classes. Rogues were massivly under powered for a long time. Everybody else was quite able to farm Freeport guards to max level. This guy didn't beta anything. IF he did then he never got out of highhold keep
I'm disregarding your opinion because you know absolutely nothing about current EQ or old school EQ. Not every class should be able to solo, that's your opinnion but that wasn't what EQ was about at all. If Verant wanted every class to solo they would have, the reason they didn't is so you would group. If you wanted to solo you could, you picked a solo class, so your point is moot.
The instances have been in EQ for years, since 2002. WoW based the instance model on EQ. Seriously, your post was garbage. edit: I can't spell
It was released in 1999 and I started as a beta tester. I don't see ur opinion as more valid and I will disregrad yours too.
If you can't see that WOW takes the EQ trend and does everything BETTER .. then too bad for you. The market has moved on as demonstrated succinctly by all the numbers. You can wallowed in the old glorious days as much as you want and we move on.
Your right that WoW took the EQ trend but did it make it better, I think not. I just got done playing the EQ free trial and im actually thinking of subscribing. I havent played in 5 years but the game is even better than I remember.
WoW vanilla was ok but it just got worse each expansion IMO. I miss complexity of character development in games, I miss not having things over top NPC's heads saying here I have a quest for you. I miss harsh death penalties, i miss grouping for the fun of it and to do quests, not because I have to get that next cool loot drop and thats a I group for. Hell I miss everything in games Pre WoW.
Yes WoW has changed the genre and has accomplished something that nobody thought was possible, but the reason why they did it is because they targeted they targeted the masses. If it was exactly like any of the old school games but looked the same I bet you the game would not be as popular as it is.
Yes, I agree 100%. It always strikes a chord with me when I see people refer to games like Ultima Online and Everquest as if they no longer exist. You'll always see people claim how they miss a game, or just refer to older MMO's in the past tense.
some of you gamers new to the genre need to check out some of these older games like Dark Age of Camelot, EQ1, Ultima Online. One thing is for certain with these older games, is you'll find an incredibl community bending over backwards to welcome any and all new players. You wont see constant drable in chat channels, and anyone disrupting the game is usually dealt with in a mature way.
you lose a lot of anonymity in these smaller and closer communities. you can build a name pretty quick for yourself, even quicker if you're a dousche. I think you all owe yourself to play some of these older games, or return to them occassionally to see how theyve evolved. If its been years since you played something, instead of rolling back to your old toons start from scratch. Experience the world from the beginning, even if its only for a month or two. See what MMO's started out like and how theyve changed over the years. What has been coming out for the past 5 years or so is not anything like what we started with, for both good and bad.
im doing just that with Ultima Online. It recently underwent a facelift updating the entire graphics engine again. Its been close to 10 years since I played the game, so im really enjoying it. Not too long ago I went back to Dark Age of Camelot and met a lot of new people there. Got all the expansions and had a blast for quite some time.
*Edit* I have to add, if you think some of these older games really are dead.. just go visit their sites. You'll see most are still adding expansions quite regularly.
"If you want a picture of the future, imagine a robot foot stomping on a human face -- forever."
the core of the problem : esthetic has been improved, to the cost of what really matters.
I am in no way involved with game development...but I don't know what else to blame it on. It seems like graphics are the major focus with every single game now. What is the first thing people comment on when they see a new game? The graphics/animations. If a game is lacking in this area it gets hammered right out of the gate. If a game has great graphics, every one plays it, then bitches about the bad game play. Well, WTF do you expect?
Seriously, I'd like to know what the difference is (as far as time/resources required) between a game with top graphics, standard graphics, dated graphics, 2D graphics, etc. Would be interesting, I think.
I'll use EQ but applies to many of the old ones........
leveling was hard....took a long time and you had to commit that time to max, leveling made a big difference......new games were made easier....left 2 max when I left wow, left 4 maxed when I left vanguard, left 2 maxed when I left warhammer...You could max in the old ones too, but I did these in a short amount of time....I had no attachment to the characters as I did in EQ/UO/old kod, because it was EASY. What most refer to today as grind/too much time, is in reality what makes for a sense of ownership to you character.
They did a great job in EQ of making each character have an ability that was needed by the others such as, wizzes tping and buffing/ who hasn't run around looking to buy a buff or a tp. Druids =sow and tp/secondary healers, necro find corpse/summon corpse. warriors were main tanks /tauters.......shammons, buffs/secondary healers. chanters crowd control,monks fd made them monster pullers.....each had someting that made them unique and lots of the things caused us to make friends that we otherwise would never of known.......Healers could rez and save you a ton of experience.....necros drew you out of spots that maybe you would never of gotten back to alone.....these things made the games better IMO. They still try but not to the same extent.
I really liked the tp system......it took time to move from place to place but you could go anywhere, though you couldn't just hop in, you had to hit the nearest spire and then run in. You learned the game much better that way, but you didn't get that instant jump....you had to wait for the tp and then move to the area you wanted....often a dangerous journey till you learned the best way to navigate it.
I'll stop to keep this from being more of a book:)..........most of the things that were done latter on we basically the same type of game, but in response to the .....too much time/grind crowd, they were so much easier that we lose interest in them and find ourselves wishing we were back in good ole.........whichever.. I don't think this will change until they can't make any money from the easy games anymore and some break off and make challenging ones........Darkfall doesn't look to me like it made it, im hoping for MO, but at least it looks like a couple are trying now, I hope this is the pre cursor of things to come.
After EQ nothing has been the same ever since. What people call progress i call setbacks. We have effectivly killed
1. Power levelling 2. Non instanced dungeons 3. Buffs (Yes plenty of MMO's have buffs today but to a very limited extent and a less usefull degree compared to EQ) 4. Travel buffs and group teleportation spells since it is all about the mounts now 5. No xp penalties from deaths. It sucked to lose exp but it taught you to be a better player and remember the bad ones. 6. No more mob trains. Again sucked to be wiped out from a train but it added an edge to the game that also were part of making you a better player. 7. Mobs that would visibly be wearing the weapon they would drop. 8. Lack of character classes. Now we have classes being able to take on multiple roles cutting classes down to a very few. 5 -7 seems to be the magic numbers at release these days. 9. Prepaid cards. In the old days kids were rare in MMORPGS because there were no such thing as a prepaid card. Kids would have to borrow mom or dads credit card which didn't happen often. When i played EQ i could count on 1 hand how many kids i ran into. Vanguard seemed to keep kids away with the more hardcore approach to PvE which i enjoyed as well. 10. Corpse run. Dying in a dangerous spot and having to retrieve your corpse with your gear was sometimes nerve wrecking. It made you care about if you died or not and where you died as well.
I could go on but i wont. I can't go back to EQ again since the game has too many expansions, too little influx of new players and a low playerbase. If EQ wiped all their servers completely and relaunched today with a fresh batch of players i would go back and play it for a couple of years again for sure.
As it is my most beloved genre is dead with EQ and DaoC. All i can get today and the future is mediocre MMO experiences. But i still have hope somebody will create a gem someday.
Couldn't agree with you more. I wish they would just recreate EQ with new graphics. Same classes, same races and same spells as well as other things you mentioned. I would buy and subscribe in a heart beat if that happened.
Old MMO's can be better in some ways except for the graphics. I love it when old MMO's have Pixel graphics. Like I said, it's just AWESOME. It reminds of way back in the day...actually, just like 13 years ago. I find New MMO's very boring. They're just way to new.
Old MMO's can be better in some ways except for the graphics. I love it when old MMO's have Pixel graphics. Like I said, it's just AWESOME. It reminds of way back in the day...actually, just like 13 years ago. I find New MMO's very boring. They're just way to new.
And here I thought I was the only one that thought like this.
Comments
Don't be so sure. Dungoens & Dragons Online (DDO) aren't anything like WoW, and it's 3rd year of this game starting just now. I think it's the newest the best doing of oldschool mmorpgs. Now I know why I love this game so much, and prefer above others - it's oldschool at it's heart and it's core. Some of that what I loved in UO is there. Of course, not sanbox playstyle or crafting, not player cities - these don't exist in DDO, at least in that form from Ultima. Real crafting isn't even finished yet.
Though for me it's the best trade off at the moment, mixing oldschool, intense skill / ability use, near limitless customization, and modern. But not in that most popular, "only true" WoW-rip off style.
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Don't be so sure. Dungoens & Dragons Online (DDO) aren't anything like WoW, and it's 3rd year of this game starting just now. I think it's the newest the best doing of oldschool mmorpgs. Now I know why I love this game so much, and prefer above others - it's oldschool at it's heart and it's core. Some of that what I loved in UO is there. Of course, not sanbox playstyle or crafting, not player cities - these don't exist in DDO, at least in that form from Ultima. Real crafting isn't even finished yet.
Though for me it's the best trade off at the moment, mixing oldschool, intense skill / ability use, near limitless customization, and modern. But not in that most popular, "only true" WoW-rip off style.
Personally I group DDO with guildwars, Diablo, NWN as Co-op Rpgs or CRPG. great games though and Both GW and DDO show the evolution of that genre.
Todays new MMos could learn alot from the DDO dungeons they're fun.
Playing: Nothing
Looking forward to: Nothing
The only problem with older games is there's no one to play with.
If they opened an Origins server for DAOC I'd be back in a minute.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Hmm. Than you really can't know much about present DDO. It's not any less MMORPG than WoW or LotrO. It's just in other style, with better quests, and less PvP. But yes, there are frequent PvP fights, just not as frequent as in WoW or it's clones like WAR (which I played too).
DDO is nothing like GW. I have big experience with GW and it's expansions. Yes, that game is nothing like MMO for me, no community else than PvP matches. DDO is absolutely different. We have probably one of the strongest and warm communities, something I didn't see playing WoW, WAR, hell... most other games. GW is like massively online deathmatch, but DDO isn't massively online cRPG. It's an MMO of bones and blood, very vibrant now, too.
Soon, coming with Module 9 are changes to better show it to newer players. And generally nice changes, like global general, trade and help chats, so people like you will probably see how much MMO life is going on there
. After Module 9 comes live (probably about a month of wait? hard to tell), I suggest to try and see for yourself. Gaining first 3 levels isn't enough to know this game, though, so be aware of it 
. It's very complex and deep MMO.
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Hmm. Than you really can't know much about present DDO. It's not any less MMORPG than WoW or LotrO. It's just in other style, with better quests, and less PvP. But yes, there are frequent PvP fights, just not as frequent as in WoW or it's clones like WAR (which I played too).
DDO is nothing like GW. I have big experience with GW and it's expansions. Yes, that game is nothing like MMO for me, no community else than PvP matches. DDO is absolutely different. We have probably one of the strongest and warm communities, something I didn't see playing WoW, WAR, hell... most other games. GW is like massively online deathmatch, but DDO isn't massively online cRPG. It's an MMO of bones and blood, very vibrant now, too.
Soon, coming with Module 9 are changes to better show it to newer players. And generally nice changes, like global general, trade and help chats, so people like you will probably see how much MMO life is going on there
. After Module 9 comes live (probably about a month of wait? hard to tell), I suggest to try and see for yourself. Gaining first 3 levels isn't enough to know this game, though, so be aware of it 
. It's very complex and deep MMO.
I tried DDO right after it released if they added a open world to explore in that time then I apologize.
I remember DDO being a bunch player hubs with a few instances in them each.
Playing: Nothing
Looking forward to: Nothing
It's natural for the genres to go up and down no matter what it is... due to popularity and marketing.
In games... ones like WoW come out and market simply for popularity. The more players they get the better, and they are willing to dumb down the game to be more welcoming.
It happens in entertainment as well. Take music - whatever your favorite music genre is. Chances are, it is not in its "purest" form anymore - "pop" artists will start becoming more widespread and pretty much tainting the music genre. People will be saying these new popular artists/bands are "the best ever!"... but being a true fan of the pure form of the genre, you will know this is not true. Also, notice how your favorite musicians eventually degrade in quality - they simply arent as hungry for it as they used to be, and inevitably get tainted by the lure of more money.
It becomes a job, instead of something they love to do.
Look at the "sequels" of games made by the same companies. AC1-AC2.. 2 catered far more to the "general population"... daoc to WAR... war caters more to the "general population"... EQ1 to EQ2 same thing....
There is already games like WoW to welcome players to the genre, once they are ready for something deeper... they would have it if there were companies making them. There are players all over out there looking for something deeper... but their options are so limited and many players will not be satisfied with games that are older/more outdated.
They all but forgotten about making MMO games for the MMO fans. They make the games for sales instead. They do not realize that if they made a MMO game for the real MMO players and not new MMO players, the players would come, because they will be looking for something deeper after the MMO's that welcome them to the genre...
After EQ nothing has been the same ever since. What people call progress i call setbacks. We have effectivly killed
1. Power levelling
2. Non instanced dungeons
3. Buffs (Yes plenty of MMO's have buffs today but to a very limited extent and a less usefull degree compared to EQ)
4. Travel buffs and group teleportation spells since it is all about the mounts now
5. No xp penalties from deaths. It sucked to lose exp but it taught you to be a better player and remember the bad ones.
6. No more mob trains. Again sucked to be wiped out from a train but it added an edge to the game that also were part of making you a better player.
7. Mobs that would visibly be wearing the weapon they would drop.
8. Lack of character classes. Now we have classes being able to take on multiple roles cutting classes down to a very few. 5 -7 seems to be the magic numbers at release these days.
9. Prepaid cards. In the old days kids were rare in MMORPGS because there were no such thing as a prepaid card. Kids would have to borrow mom or dads credit card which didn't happen often. When i played EQ i could count on 1 hand how many kids i ran into. Vanguard seemed to keep kids away with the more hardcore approach to PvE which i enjoyed as well.
10. Corpse run. Dying in a dangerous spot and having to retrieve your corpse with your gear was sometimes nerve wrecking. It made you care about if you died or not and where you died as well.
I could go on but i wont. I can't go back to EQ again since the game has too many expansions, too little influx of new players and a low playerbase. If EQ wiped all their servers completely and relaunched today with a fresh batch of players i would go back and play it for a couple of years again for sure.
As it is my most beloved genre is dead with EQ and DaoC. All i can get today and the future is mediocre MMO experiences. But i still have hope somebody will create a gem someday.
I too enjoyed playing some of the old games after I left EQ and WoW.
It was also interesting see how many ideas were used from the old games by WoW and EQ2.
I do not go back and replay MMO's that I formerly played . I left them because I was bored and looking for something different. Its too time consuming and expensive to download and reinstall an old game, purchase any expansions that came out since you last played and then pay a subscription fee. All of this on the off chance that your interest in the game may be rekindled.
Old MMO's are usually relatively bug free.
For someone playing a particular old MMO for the first, it has its own appeal.
Some of the players in the thread complain about how contemporary MMO's are easier etc.
Well I agree and I strongly believe that a lot of newcomers to the MMO genre since a few years have been kids. Many children now have internet access, this didn't used to be the case, the internet for children just boomed a few years ago, about the time WoW launched is when you had a huge influx of children online through cheaper internet, cheaper PCs, PCs in classrooms etc.
In a way I think a lot of games jumped on that and made MMO much too easy for adults or "intelligent players", whatever that means. You can't deny that most new MMO are just a shadow in difficulty of the former ones. Not only grind is easier, which is fine, but the whole game itself is super easy most of the time and requires almost no social interraction to advance, which is not fine imo.
It desolates me to say that you are not only right, but probably to the core of the problem : esthetic has been improved, to the cost of what really matters. MMO's are now about grinding and quest that asks you to grind, with a bit of lore, yet no progression according to the player's action.
In wow, you could barely choose scryers vs aldor, with little impact. Bosses are already beaten not by epic guilds, but by beta testers, making guides to beat the bosses. WoW is one exemple, probably the most popular, which is what desolates me the most about gamers.
Yeah I do like older games as well, FFXI was my first MMO that I played a lot. I played EQ at a friends house for a while and played a month before my friends got me hooked on FFXI. But till this day I cant seem to find a game I like. Right now im beta testing a game and I have the LOTRO trial, which I really liked when I played when i first came out its just my internet got shut off and they wanted me to pay 200 bones to get it turned back on, but that's another entire story in its self.
So Im going to try the EQ trial and see how that goes and see how LOTRO goes. Other than that Im just going to wait till Fallen Earth comes out.
Says you!
wanna give me a reason other then graphics and the fact that everything could be soloed in the current crop of mmos?
Can't be because todays mmos aren't grind lol!
Here... I will do what you did " Old mmos are actually fun games" gratz
Sure .. and I start with UO beta & EQ .. both are pretty BAD games compared to WOW/. Reasons:
1) OPTION to solo >>>> forced groups. Hate to stand around with nothing to do
2) Quest >>> mob grinding. Level grinding in EQ is BORING
3) Instance >>>> camping with 50 people in line to kill the boos
4) script boss fight >>>> simple boss fight
5) Low death penalty >>>> high death penalty and more need to grind
6) OPTIONAL PvP >>> Horriable gangfest in UO
Enough reasons????
I'm disregarding your opinion because you know absolutely nothing about current EQ or old school EQ.
Not every class should be able to solo, that's your opinnion but that wasn't what EQ was about at all. If Verant wanted every class to solo they would have, the reason they didn't is so you would group.
If you wanted to solo you could, you picked a solo class, so your point is moot.
The instances have been in EQ for years, since 2002. WoW based the instance model on EQ.
Seriously, your post was garbage.
edit: I can't spell
It was released in 1999 and I started as a beta tester. I don't see ur opinion as more valid and I will disregrad yours too.
If you can't see that WOW takes the EQ trend and does everything BETTER .. then too bad for you. The market has moved on as demonstrated succinctly by all the numbers. You can wallowed in the old glorious days as much as you want and we move on.
It was released in 1999 and I started as a beta tester. I don't see ur opinion as more valid and I will disregrad yours too.
If you can't see that WOW takes the EQ trend and does everything BETTER .. then too bad for you. The market has moved on as demonstrated succinctly by all the numbers. You can wallowed in the old glorious days as much as you want and we move on.
For a beta tester you know shit.
Waterlily owned your ass in this thread and made you look ill informed and stupid.
She beat you down so bad you had to pull out the sub number topic LOL!
How very sad my friend move along.
Playing: Nothing
Looking forward to: Nothing
It was released in 1999 and I started as a beta tester. I don't see ur opinion as more valid and I will disregrad yours too.
If you can't see that WOW takes the EQ trend and does everything BETTER .. then too bad for you. The market has moved on as demonstrated succinctly by all the numbers. You can wallowed in the old glorious days as much as you want and we move on.
For a beta tester you know shit.
Waterlily owned your ass in this thread and made you look ill informed and stupid.
She beat you down so bad you had to pull out the sub number topic LOL!
How very sad my friend move along.
The only classes that couldn't solo their way to 50 was the Warrior and Rogue out of 14 original classes. Rogues were massivly under powered for a long time. Everybody else was quite able to farm Freeport guards to max level. This guy didn't beta anything. IF he did then he never got out of highhold keep
It was released in 1999 and I started as a beta tester. I don't see ur opinion as more valid and I will disregrad yours too.
If you can't see that WOW takes the EQ trend and does everything BETTER .. then too bad for you. The market has moved on as demonstrated succinctly by all the numbers. You can wallowed in the old glorious days as much as you want and we move on.
Your right that WoW took the EQ trend but did it make it better, I think not. I just got done playing the EQ free trial and im actually thinking of subscribing. I havent played in 5 years but the game is even better than I remember.
WoW vanilla was ok but it just got worse each expansion IMO. I miss complexity of character development in games, I miss not having things over top NPC's heads saying here I have a quest for you. I miss harsh death penalties, i miss grouping for the fun of it and to do quests, not because I have to get that next cool loot drop and thats a I group for. Hell I miss everything in games Pre WoW.
Yes WoW has changed the genre and has accomplished something that nobody thought was possible, but the reason why they did it is because they targeted they targeted the masses. If it was exactly like any of the old school games but looked the same I bet you the game would not be as popular as it is.
"Old mmos are awesome"
Yes, I agree 100%. It always strikes a chord with me when I see people refer to games like Ultima Online and Everquest as if they no longer exist. You'll always see people claim how they miss a game, or just refer to older MMO's in the past tense.
some of you gamers new to the genre need to check out some of these older games like Dark Age of Camelot, EQ1, Ultima Online. One thing is for certain with these older games, is you'll find an incredibl community bending over backwards to welcome any and all new players. You wont see constant drable in chat channels, and anyone disrupting the game is usually dealt with in a mature way.
you lose a lot of anonymity in these smaller and closer communities. you can build a name pretty quick for yourself, even quicker if you're a dousche. I think you all owe yourself to play some of these older games, or return to them occassionally to see how theyve evolved. If its been years since you played something, instead of rolling back to your old toons start from scratch. Experience the world from the beginning, even if its only for a month or two. See what MMO's started out like and how theyve changed over the years. What has been coming out for the past 5 years or so is not anything like what we started with, for both good and bad.
im doing just that with Ultima Online. It recently underwent a facelift updating the entire graphics engine again. Its been close to 10 years since I played the game, so im really enjoying it. Not too long ago I went back to Dark Age of Camelot and met a lot of new people there. Got all the expansions and had a blast for quite some time.
*Edit* I have to add, if you think some of these older games really are dead.. just go visit their sites. You'll see most are still adding expansions quite regularly.
"If you want a picture of the future, imagine a robot foot stomping on a human face -- forever."
I am in no way involved with game development...but I don't know what else to blame it on. It seems like graphics are the major focus with every single game now. What is the first thing people comment on when they see a new game? The graphics/animations. If a game is lacking in this area it gets hammered right out of the gate. If a game has great graphics, every one plays it, then bitches about the bad game play. Well, WTF do you expect?
Seriously, I'd like to know what the difference is (as far as time/resources required) between a game with top graphics, standard graphics, dated graphics, 2D graphics, etc. Would be interesting, I think.
I'll use EQ but applies to many of the old ones........
leveling was hard....took a long time and you had to commit that time to max, leveling made a big difference......new games were made easier....left 2 max when I left wow, left 4 maxed when I left vanguard, left 2 maxed when I left warhammer...You could max in the old ones too, but I did these in a short amount of time....I had no attachment to the characters as I did in EQ/UO/old kod, because it was EASY. What most refer to today as grind/too much time, is in reality what makes for a sense of ownership to you character.
They did a great job in EQ of making each character have an ability that was needed by the others such as, wizzes tping and buffing/ who hasn't run around looking to buy a buff or a tp. Druids =sow and tp/secondary healers, necro find corpse/summon corpse. warriors were main tanks /tauters.......shammons, buffs/secondary healers. chanters crowd control,monks fd made them monster pullers.....each had someting that made them unique and lots of the things caused us to make friends that we otherwise would never of known.......Healers could rez and save you a ton of experience.....necros drew you out of spots that maybe you would never of gotten back to alone.....these things made the games better IMO. They still try but not to the same extent.
I really liked the tp system......it took time to move from place to place but you could go anywhere, though you couldn't just hop in, you had to hit the nearest spire and then run in. You learned the game much better that way, but you didn't get that instant jump....you had to wait for the tp and then move to the area you wanted....often a dangerous journey till you learned the best way to navigate it.
I'll stop to keep this from being more of a book:)..........most of the things that were done latter on we basically the same type of game, but in response to the .....too much time/grind crowd, they were so much easier that we lose interest in them and find ourselves wishing we were back in good ole.........whichever.. I don't think this will change until they can't make any money from the easy games anymore and some break off and make challenging ones........Darkfall doesn't look to me like it made it, im hoping for MO, but at least it looks like a couple are trying now, I hope this is the pre cursor of things to come.
Couldn't agree with you more. I wish they would just recreate EQ with new graphics. Same classes, same races and same spells as well as other things you mentioned. I would buy and subscribe in a heart beat if that happened.
Old MMO's can be better in some ways except for the graphics. I love it when old MMO's have Pixel graphics. Like I said, it's just AWESOME. It reminds of way back in the day...actually, just like 13 years ago. I find New MMO's very boring. They're just way to new.
And here I thought I was the only one that thought like this.
Eye candy doesn't make a game.
TGWTETIPTNMAITC! -Gary Whitta