Analysis of Stephanie Morrow's Official "Re-Review" of Vanguard

declaredemerdeclaredemer SydneyMember Posts: 2,698

Vanguard Re-Review, by Stephanie Morrow www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/game/147/view/reviews/load/69/Vanguard-ReReview.html.


 

INTRODUCTION

A re-review is definitely warranted.  A large, and diverse, game of Vanguard is somewhat difficult to review because you do have three spheres of gameplay (adventure, crafting taken to new levels, and a fairly unique diplomacy system).  Most people want to hear about adventure, and crafting is often mentioned as an aside.  The crafting system in Vanguard, however, based on limited knowledge I have, is deep and complex enough to have its own separate review.  Crafting in Vanguard, e.g., is interactive in terms of literally watching trees slowing fall visually and hearing the audio of cracking timber.  Fishing is also a feature that is different from fishing I have experienced in other games, for better or worse.

 

A.  Vanguard's Release

The author is exactly right in describing the release of Vanguard as an "epic failure."  It was an unmitigated disaster, pronounced by awful communication from SIGIL, INC. and no central forum to voice distate.  Hence, people went to private forums to voice their problems, and some of those private forums were pressured, either implicitly or explicitly, to censor truth.  I mention this for two reasons, which is not to open-up old wounds:  (1) censorship is wrong (almost always) and (2) corporations should learn from this when they release games (i.e., get a forum, be honest about a game's buggy state, do not tell people/customers  to go buy a new computer when they experience performance problems - try to "fix" those problems).  If I have opened old wounds, I apologize; but I do think it needed to be mentioned.

 

B.  Vanguard Today

The author is right that "content has been added," bugs fixed, and features have been implemented such as player galleons for travel and fishing.  The community, though smaller, is excellent. 

1.  Performance

Performance is improve for many but still holds the game back.  The author is right that "when you try to open doors there’s a very small amount of lag as it swings open but it’s not nearly the performance freezing monstrosity that used to occur."  I am reluctant to discuss performance because it is like the weather in certain parts of the world.  If you do not like it, just wait five minutes and it will change.  I have gone on raids that were unplayable, basically, due to lag.  I have also done the same raid where I hardly lag and was told that a "patch" or a "fix" or something like that screwed it up and they were working on it.  My own recent experience, however, was that performance was quite good but not great.  The author also wrote some suggestions for improving performance such as turning off shadows and sound.   

2.  Graphics/World Feel

"Telon," the author wrote, "is absolutely beautiful."  The author wrote that the game "still looks beautiful" played on balanced settings.  The cool thing about Vanguard is its weather system, as you can "spot storm clouds off in the distance and watch as they approach."  The great world of Telon is a very diverse place with all sorts of societs, cultures, creatures, mobs, deserts, rivers, caverns, and you name it.  The world is, by far, the game's greatest asset; and it is my advice that opportunities to exploit the sense of travel and explortation should be taken advantage of more. 

Vanguard, or Telon, feels like a "complete" world.  When I play some games, the worlds do not feel "messy."  Worlds should be messy and not necessarily neatly categorized such as, here is the High Elf area, now here is the bad area, and here is this and that.  There should be human colonies, gyspie travellers, pirates that occassionally raid coastal towns and enslave people (if you die by them, you, yourself, could be enslaved). 

The world of Telon boasts maginificent cities such as Traganor to vast beaches and dark forests. Old Targanor is inhabited by a vast undead army, and you have undead patrols in certain areas. 

Telon, to many of us, does not simply feel like a video game world.  It feels alive.  It feels real.  And it is an exciting place to just simply get on your galleon or your horse and explore.

3.  Character Customization

The author describes character customization in Vanguard as a "key item."  The author goes on to describe customization as an "in depth process," at least at the character creation portion. 

i.  Attribute Points

I disagree with the author, respectfully, on this point.  It is not a slight disagreement.  The author also did not mention how players can use attribute points to add points to say strength and dexterity to build a certain kind of Rogue or Caster.  Each time you level, you can allocate attribute however you wish.  

ii.  Paths

The author also did not mention that certain, but as far as I know not all, classes can choose "paths."  Paths are similar to customization, but I think only better because there is more story and true Questing behind it.

iii.  Alt Advancement

Character customization is an opportunity, I think, for Vanguard to distinguish itself from some many other games that have basic specialization decision-trees.  Alt advancement is to be released "soon."  It at least has me, and I know I am not alone, very excited to see what it entails.  Alt Advancement could be one "key item" that really takes Vanguard to the next level.

4.  Sound

I must say that audio is possibly the most underrated feature in MMORPGs.  The most underrated feature.    I really do not have anything to add to what the author wrote. 

5.  Gameplay

i.  Three spheres

As previously mentioned, Vanguard has three spheres of gameplay (adventure, crafting, and diplomacy).  Apparently, each sphere has its own Quests and stories.  The author describes diplomacy, however, as a "grind fest" and of "little use."  The author is probably right. 

ii.  Combat

Vanguard's combat system is sophisticated.  Some people disagree, but I think it is a great.  You have a system in which certain class abilities complement other class abilities.  I have reviewed and analyzed combat before, so I will just mention it as an aside. 

iii.  Classes

Classes are a great stregnth of Vanguard.  You have many choices to choose from, and each of the classes "own" in their own right.  The nice thing is that all the classes, as far as I know, are capable of soloing when you want to solo or cannot find a group.

iv.  Quests

Many fun tasks and Quests throughout Vanguard.  You have deep, long Quests such as those for a specialized mount. You also have tasks you can complete in certain towns and cities.  The Quest and task system is another great strength that I often do not mention and rarely see mentioned.

v.  Dungeons

Many dungeons throughout Vanguard.  Many dungeons are challenging and offer adventurers valuable rewards for taking the time, and making the effort, to conquer them.  I have had great experiences in Vanguard's dungeons. 

6.  Community

Vanguard's community is excellent.  Perhaps one of my all-time favorite guilds, and I have been in many (lead many) in different games, is in Vanguard.  The author is right when she alludes to the loyalty of the Vnaguard playerbase by describing their "passion" for the game.  Vanguard does have a special and unique community, and it could be because it is a smaller community.

CONCLUSION

The author concludes that the game is "far from perfect" and mentions that some bugs still remain.  Overall, the author's review is fair, balanced, and accurate.  Vanguard's crafting system could, by itself, be reviewed; and there might even be one out there somewhere.  Many people could play Vanguard and experience Vanguard in different ways:

  • Crafting oriented
  • Adventure oriented
    • Solo
    • Small Group
    • Full Group
    • Raid
  • Diplomacy oriented
  • Explorer oriented
  • Dungeon oriented

The nice thing about Vanguard, due to its size and diversity, is that people are able to experience the game in different ways.  One player's path of character development is totally different from another's.  The game is not linear, which is great.  The world is not cookie-cutter, which is great.  

Vanguard was an ambitious project that was lead by very bright, talented, and creative people.  It is on the right track of not only possibly fulfilling its destiny as a great and brilliant game but also undergoing certain modifications that are necessary. 

Travel, for example, is a modification that was, and few people would disagree, necessary.  Whether these "modifiations" and deviations from the so-called vision profit or undermine Vanguard is what makes it more interesting for me to watch.

Vangurd, for all practical intents and purposes, remains incomplete.  The world could still be filled-in more with more content, dungeons, and innovative features.  Character customization, I think, is lacking; but an alt advancement system will be implemented.  Whether this alt advancement system is a "modification" or a part of the original "vision," I do not know.  Alt Advancement, if done properly, would profit Vanguard well.

See you in Telon in the future!

 

 

 

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Comments

  • amimiaamimia La Vista, NEMember UncommonPosts: 73

    I have debated on coming back several times. The only thing that holds me back is that the community being so small I am afraid it would be a struggle to lvl, is this true?

  • ZsasZZsasZ Boise, IDMember Posts: 208

    Does this mean we can expect someone else to post a summation of the analysis of the re-review? Then maybe a rebuttal of the summation of the analysis of the re-review...

    Evil will always win, because Good is dumb.

  • MuruganMurugan D, COMember Posts: 1,494
    Originally posted by amimia


    I have debated on coming back several times. The only thing that holds me back is that the community being so small I am afraid it would be a struggle to lvl, is this true?

     

    No more so than it would be to level in any other game that has been released for a while.

     

    I would actually say it is easier to find groups if you are looking for them as Vanguard's class system encourages people to create alts, including healing and support classes because of how unique and enjoyable (subjective I guess) the different playstyles are.

     

    As you level up utilize the regionchat (covers whole continent, either Qalia or Thestra as you will probably only stay in Kojan if you choose to visit it until ~ mid 20's when content there runs out).  If that fails to land you a group quickly simply use search to find players in your level range and send them a tell.  I have never soloed in Vanguard, and with that in mind it was easier to find a group here than it was on one of the most populated servers of FFXI.

     

    Unlike FFXI you can solo in Vanguard and there is quite a bit of interesting solo content, but at least one time leveling through I would recommend doing it mainly through grouping as the level 1-50 dungeons are very well done and shouldn't be missed.

  • FarandirFarandir OsloMember Posts: 111

    Nice one, declaredemer! Two thumbs up out of two.

     

  • DataDayDataDay Los Angeles, CAMember UncommonPosts: 1,458

    I left quite a lengthy reply to that re-review. I also want people to come back to the game, even though I am not subscribed atm either.

    But I had to be honest with them. The community IS NOT GREAT. Let me explain before you all go apeshit. The community is self destructive and what I mean by that is that they, whether they know it or not, give off signals that say "be exactly like me or gtfo of MY game". Its sad because this hurts Vanguard. Many get driven away because the community is like a small club house with a sign out front that reads "No X allowed". If anyone brings up the desire for some improved pvp interactions or features, this community..which I like to label as extremist ( like carebears on crack) who lack any sort of logical rational for their hate of pvp, other than they dont want it in "THEIR" game as they put it. Some might say, "I dont care just leave it off the PvE server" but then follow with "the devs shouldnt waste time on making pvp right".

    They come up with odd excuses like "vanguard was never intended to have pvp or be a pvp game as well". Which is an outright lie. Essentially they are saying "vanguard was never intended to be popular, in fact all that money was spent just to make a tiny tiny nich market happy", I guess thats why there were so many pvp servers on launch. Sigil developers on silky venom explained that pvp WAS going to be an important part of the game as well. The back of the box even features it as one of its big features. Yet, this community...or should I call it a club, refuses to let the game become more open to a wider audience, more fun for those who enjoy player vs player interactions and competition. Im sorry but mob behavior is pretty lame, they just charge at you. Real humans however, thinking people, can give you a challenge..and thats the whole point of a game. Challenge.

    Its sad because the game is set up to be very successful if it can put in the features that attracts everyone, not just older people who get sick at the thought of playing against another player, its almost as if they are afraid. I knew kids who hated games where you fought against someone, but only liked ones that you play along side them against a computer. I used to be one of them. I grew up though, some of these people did not. The reason why? Is because they feel bad when they lose. It depresses them. Im not trying to paint everyone that way on vanguards pve server, but thats the message they give.

    I think a strong focus on pve and pvp, as well as acceptance at multiple play styles and wants would help Vanguard. Its a be anything you want to be kind of game. Yet, the current tiny community wants to cripple itself by insulting and scaring off others with the "its MY game" mentality. They dont realize they are crippling the game itself.

    Anyways... the re-review is good, it needs to attrack more players. I love vanguard, played it on day one and was driven off by a self defeating community and buggy game. I encourage people to join Vanguard, to make it popular again.... But I also inform them to add another voice to the community, a voice that opposes that extreme carebear community and offers some balance. A new voice that pushes for improvements that allow player created content...aka pvp and player designed conflict and challenges. I oppose this community that defeats the game they love so much. They are starving vanguard, keeping it crippled. There is no reason Vanguard should not become a big success in the wake of failed games like AoC and WAR, which are horrible in my opinion.

    Vanguard is set to update its graphics to dirx10, its not like it will become graphically obsolete in the coming years... it has the potential to last a long time... just need to put that bad community where it belongs... on equal footing. I would rather them get driven away and have a larger population of players come in, than keep the current tiny community there keeping the game down.

    Anyways, thanks for reading. I hope vanguard gets popular, it needs it. I cant play it though while a community that drives me away continues to wave signs that say "this is MY game gtfo" and "no X allowed".

  • FarandirFarandir OsloMember Posts: 111

    Sorry, Rabenwolf. I just don't agree with you. The community in Vanguard, in my experience(i'm a new player) is one of the friendliest out there, i'm based on Halgar(except for the community on Laurelin in LotrO). But that's just me. Maybe you were unlucky, that's all.

    Just because some people are assholes doesn't mean that the whole population is.

    And oh, PvP has nothing to do with popularity, just look at AoC.

  • DataDayDataDay Los Angeles, CAMember UncommonPosts: 1,458
    Originally posted by Farandir


    Sorry, Rabenwolf. I just don't agree with you. The community in Vanguard, in my experience(i'm a new player) is one of the friendliest out there, i'm based on Halgar(except for the community on Laurelin in LotrO). But that's just me. Maybe you were unlucky, that's all.
    Just because some people are assholes doesn't mean that the whole population is.
    And oh, PvP has nothing to do with popularity, just look at AoC.

     

    I have been off and on with Vanguard, been active on the forums, and the community has been fairly constant after the pvp players left. The community was one of the worst parts of vanguard back during launch. Its changed since then, but just as bad. Look, its not a matter of someone being nice or mean, but how they respond and force your playstyle. As long as you act exactly like them, they will bare with you, other wise you get branded as some sort of guy trying to ruin THEIR game.

    Im not saying there are no exceptions, but when referring to something as vague as a community, you take the overall image and go with that. Sadly it rings of truth, much like stereo types.

    Once you ask or try to talk to someone about something they hate...literally HATE, such as pvp, you might as well ask to be attacked. If you joined recently when it was free for the holidays...wait till the new peeps leave again and you will be left with the same crew.

    As for AoC... PvP has to do with accessability, how many people it can reach. AoC sadly still has strong pve and pvp servers. BOTH, made as a priority. PvP is player generated content and conflict, it boosts the replay value. The reason AoC is doing bad (its doing well compared to vanguard) overall is because Funcom shipped an incomplete game in which every patch broke something else. It has nothing to do with the pvp features, which are GREAT and probably the only thing keeping most of their population number. Look at WAR, the game also is bland. Why does it still have a decent, though small compared to WoW, sub count? Because of pvp. Its never runs out of content, if that makes sense. You can spend 3  months creating a level people will finish in a day with pve, content runs out. You can spend 3 months adding something good for pvp, and people will never finish it because it doesnt run out. In pvp you can accomplish something without it expiring. 

    Ask yourself why a vastly superior RPG like vanguard is doing worse than two mediocre games with strong pvp elements? The pvp focus is whats keeping Vanguard from being a strong popular title. Its just PvE in which level 50s look for things to do like farming low lvl bosses and stocking up on items, or making alt after alt after alt. Thats what they are doing right now. Its sad really. Theres no reason AoC should be more popular than Vanguard in my opinion, but it is and for the reasons I talked about.

  • FarandirFarandir OsloMember Posts: 111

    I'm not asking anything, i'm enjoying the game and the community on Halgar. I'm sorry for your bad experience, but it still doesn't concern the whole Vanguard community. Like I said earlier, just because some people are assholes, doesn't mean that the whole community is.

     

    Cheers.

     

    EDIT: Why is my troll-radar starting to beep all of a sudden? Maybe it's broken, I dunno...

  • DataDayDataDay Los Angeles, CAMember UncommonPosts: 1,458
    Originally posted by Farandir


    I'm not asking anything, i'm enjoying the game and the community on Halgar. I'm sorry for your bad experience, but it still doesn't concern the whole Vanguard community. Like I said earlier, just because some people are assholes, doesn't mean that the whole community is.
     
    Cheers.
     
    EDIT: Why is my troll-radar starting to beep all of a sudden? Maybe it's broken, I dunno...

     

    Well, that stubborn as a mule ignorant response means you fit right in with the current community, and you are probably lying about being new. Congrats. Oh and thats not a troll radar, its your brain, and yes it is broken, especially in the whit department.

  • beauturkeybeauturkey Mabinogi Correspondent dallas, TXMember Posts: 288

     I been working with the community for a year now. I host a VG podcast and a blog. I can say that the community IS good, but they can just be SOOOOO serious sometimes.

     The most vocal ones are usually the same ones, so you might feel that there is some kind of "club."

     But inside the game and in all the contacts I have gotten outside of the game have shown me that the community is very smart, and very cool.

     Do they need to open up their ideas a bit sometimes? Sure. But overall they are very helpful.

     Where the community is biting itself in the butt is by not helping get the word out more. SOE is not going to do it, yet so many of them let that stop them from doing anything other than playing the game.

     Don't get me wrong, playing the game is all you need to if that's what you want, but don't come whining about SOE not doing something they have been obviously not planning on doing for a long time now, after the game has been lost.

     

     Beau Turkey

     http://www.spouseaggro.com

    image

    Listen to the Spouse Aggro podcast at spouseaggro.com. Twitter: spouseaggro

  • FarandirFarandir OsloMember Posts: 111
    Originally posted by Rabenwolf

    Originally posted by Farandir


    I'm not asking anything, i'm enjoying the game and the community on Halgar. I'm sorry for your bad experience, but it still doesn't concern the whole Vanguard community. Like I said earlier, just because some people are assholes, doesn't mean that the whole community is.
     
    Cheers.
     
    EDIT: Why is my troll-radar starting to beep all of a sudden? Maybe it's broken, I dunno...

     

    Well, that stubborn as a mule ignorant response means you fit right in with the current community, and you are probably lying about being new. Congrats. Oh and thats not a troll radar, its your brain, and yes it is broken, especially in the whit department.

     

    Thanks. No, to me you seem stubbornly ignorant as you want to label the whole community as bad. Fine, it's up to you.

  • DataDayDataDay Los Angeles, CAMember UncommonPosts: 1,458
    Originally posted by Farandir

    Originally posted by Rabenwolf

    Originally posted by Farandir


    I'm not asking anything, i'm enjoying the game and the community on Halgar. I'm sorry for your bad experience, but it still doesn't concern the whole Vanguard community. Like I said earlier, just because some people are assholes, doesn't mean that the whole community is.
     
    Cheers.
     
    EDIT: Why is my troll-radar starting to beep all of a sudden? Maybe it's broken, I dunno...

     

    Well, that stubborn as a mule ignorant response means you fit right in with the current community, and you are probably lying about being new. Congrats. Oh and thats not a troll radar, its your brain, and yes it is broken, especially in the whit department.

     

    Thanks. No, to me you seem stubbornly ignorant as you want to label the whole community as bad. Fine, it's up to you.

     

    Im the guy on the forums trying to get features that allow entertainment for all types of players, completely neutral in both pve and pvp. Thats not being stubbornly ignorant, having decent discussions about how the game can get better is what you should find both on the forums and in the game world, yet the usual responses are "no, dont mess with my game" and "i dont care, i hate X"...ect

    As for the community being labled as bad...the only thing thats 100% bad right here is your reading comprehension. What part of "Im not saying there are no exceptions, but when referring to something as vague as a community, you take the overall image and go with that. Sadly it rings of truth, much like stereo types." do you not understand? You seem to think bad means being an arsehole, and im trying to explain to you it does not. This is why you fit right in with the rest of the unsavory members of the community.

  • DataDayDataDay Los Angeles, CAMember UncommonPosts: 1,458
    Originally posted by beauturkey


     I been working with the community for a year now. I host a VG podcast and a blog. I can say that the community IS good, but they can just be SOOOOO serious sometimes.
     The most vocal ones are usually the same ones, so you might feel that there is some kind of "club."
     But inside the game and in all the contacts I have gotten outside of the game have shown me that the community is very smart, and very cool.
     Do they need to open up their ideas a bit sometimes? Sure. But overall they are very helpful.
     Where the community is biting itself in the butt is by not helping get the word out more. SOE is not going to do it, yet so many of them let that stop them from doing anything other than playing the game.


     

    I hear ya, I'm  not saying they cannot be helpful. In fact a few of them will actually respond to a question and give detailed answers for those new players. However. Being helpful isnt the issue...they often wont be helpful if you talk about taboo subjects or give an opinion on something. Sadly the vocal ones as you have mentioned will literally verbally beat down new players. I have seen it way too many times.

    I have said many times the game is great, but lacking. In fact, heres a review of the game i wrote when it was launched..admid all the horrible reviews I actually gave a good one. That shows that Im not against this game at all. http://www.gamespot.com/pc/rpg/vanguard/player_review.html?id=422524&tag=contributions;review5

    I really do not agree that its a matter of getting the word out, I mean it helps, but then if that player has a bad experience they in turn trash the game which means one step forward and two steps back. Game features speak for the game, players need to be able to feel that real progression is actually possible. That the game will not always be catering to one side of the fence and will not always be partially empty.

    When the game launched, you actually saw a lot of players. It was good, the land felt alive and active. Now...well you dont see that many. Often it can feel like a single player game. Players need confidence in the game becoming more populated, as well as fleshing out its lacking features. Many that I have seen feel that with the way the current community is, that something like pvp will never be added. Things like limiting macros or ways in which to keep high lvl players from camping bosses in dungeons. They feel the game has potential, but that it will never reach that potential for the reasons mentioned in the other posts. Again, these are people i have talked to and/or observed.

    Theres a movie called Field of Dreams. One of the lines in the film is true for MMORPGs as well.. "if you build it, they will come." In the film they are talking about building a small baseball field. In games, you need to add in the right featur and put the right kind of focus on it. Good games are strong in both pvp and pve. Thats what will get Vanguard its population and spread the word.

    Finally, im not exaggerating when i said at launch, the community was horrible. Im not joking, it was bad. Say anything over global and you would be attacked, straight out. Insults, immature conversations, just nasty. Thats gone, thankfully, but a different kind of unsavory type has replaced them. The vocal members you mentioned.

     

  • FarandirFarandir OsloMember Posts: 111

    heh, people like these come and go. You come here, whine a bit about:

    a. bad community

    b. lack of population

    d. lack of PvP

    d. more or less everything.

     

    And I still say, please do not judge a whole community because of some "vocal members". But you still do, over and over and over again.

    EDIT: "I also want people to come back to the game, even though I am not subscribed atm either. " Remember that line? Your own words, Rabenwolf. A bit odd isn't it that you think the community is bad when you're not even playing the game. Give it a try though, the community might have improved.

    Cheers.

  • boojiboyboojiboy Hudson, WIMember UncommonPosts: 1,548
    Originally posted by amimia


    I have debated on coming back several times. The only thing that holds me back is that the community being so small I am afraid it would be a struggle to lvl, is this true?



     

    The game only has three PvE servers... so the community is plenty strong on those servers.  Plenty of folks online and it's been increasing steadily for awhile now.  The community is also great, typically older players than your typically MMO, very friendly, vets of EQ1, EQ2, DaoC, SWG games typically.  You'll find it easy to group and get involved with the community.  There are helpful crafting and diplomacy communities as well if you are interested in those spheres. 

    Some examples....

    People volunteer to be guides on Isle of Dawn.  They reach out to the new players and connect them with established guilds.

    Guilds hold events such as boat rides, guild hall tours, contests etc. for new players all the time.

    Diplomats work on putting up various adventuring and crafting buffs in multiple towns and outposts.  Our guild swings through these places prior to raids as these are very useful buffs.

    Guilds host open raids to allow unguilded folks or other folks that want to raid the opportunity to get into Ancient Port Warehouse and have some fun.

    There is excellent cooperation between guilds to get through different parts of the Griffon Quest.  Specifically, one of the more powerful guilds on Seradon hosted some Old Targonor nights to help folks with Akande.  Over 100 people showed up.

    I'm personally not a role-player, but there are some pretty cool role-playing events hosted by various guilds.

    Fishing tournaments!

    Many crafters enjoy making armor and weapons for newer players.

    On VGplayers different folks share their dps approaches to maximize output... great rogue information there.  Others post there ini files for peak performance.  Akande strategy sharing sessions..etc. etc. etc. etc.

     

    I haven't seen a community this good since EQ1 on Prexus.

  • DataDayDataDay Los Angeles, CAMember UncommonPosts: 1,458
    Originally posted by Farandir


    heh, people like these come and go. You come here, whine a bit about:
    a. bad community
    b. lack of population
    d. lack of PvP
    d. more or less everything.
     
    And I still say, please do not judge a whole community because of some "vocal members". But you still do, over and over and over again.
    EDIT: "I also want people to come back to the game, even though I am not subscribed atm either. " Remember that line? Your own words, Rabenwolf. A bit odd isn't it that you think the community is bad when you're not even playing the game. Give it a try though, the community might have improved.
    Cheers.

     

    People like me come and go? Typical response from someone who fits my description of the community. You say you are new, yet now you are talking like you have been around. lol. I have played vanguard longer than a "new player"...in fact since day one if you forgot that part. Its not hard to sign up for a month to see the changes, its easy to read them, and you can follow the community via forums. In case you havent realized, we just had over a month of free sub. YES that means I dont have to subscribe again, just load up the client and bam. There goes your assumption and attempt at being clever.

    I think the difference between you and I is that I want the game to succeed and am willing to be honest to people regarding the most of the vocal player base. Maybe your EU server is different, but I have my doubts about that.

    Finally learn to read please, because I keep making it clear... but maybe not clear enough, that there are exceptions. Do you know what that means? You are not acting like you do.

  • milkyymilkyy loganville, GAMember Posts: 61

    I read this entire fourm thread. and i must say i agree with Rabenwolf.

    About 5 months ago i bought VG. (love the game. im think of going back. or trying lotro.)

    I played for about a month. and i HAVE witness what he was saying about "advice"

    even in first hand experience.   i dont remember exactly what i said. but i remember saying  something about lack of pvp. and they basically said gtfo. its not a pvp game.

  • GrahlGrahl San Diego, CAMember Posts: 23

    There's still a VG pvp server, just hardly anybody plays on it.  The classes are so unbalanced for pvp it would take massive buffs/nerfs to make pvp feasible in VG.  When there's still performance issues, bugs, and lack of pve content...most people playing VG don't want the devs to spend their time working on pvp content that hardly anybody subscribed to the game cares about.  PvP in VG is bad, and it's not getting fixed anytime in the foreseeable future, that's just the reality of it.

    As for the community being bad...it depends, most of the arguments I have seen in ooc are when somebody comes in with "VG pvp sux, Darkfall is going to wtfpwnzorz this game" or something along those lines.  That will usually get the VG faithful frothing at the mouth.

    There's a recent poll posted by the devs on the SOE forums about what content people would like to see in 2009, out of >1200 people, only 8% of them wanted to see pvp worked on.  Bug fixes and raid/guild content came in roughly tied at about 28% each.  It seems silly to expect the devs to work on pvp when >90% of people responding to the poll don't care about it.

    The VG dev team is very small, just getting bug fixes and any kind of content takes a while right now...I just don't see pvp being worked on for a very long time in VG.  So yeah, it can get kind of annoying when people in ooc bitch about VG pvp...it sucks, everybody knows it sucks, but it's not going to get fixed either.  There's simply no resources to fix it.

    I think it would be great if VG had good pve and good pvp, it would probably get more subs then which would be better for everybody.  That just isn't the case though.  Just move along to some other game that has decent pvp, I'm not saying that to be a dick, that's just the simple reality of it.  I imagine most of the people who really enjoy pvp already left VG a long time ago.

  • gexz7gexz7 NY, NYMember Posts: 131

    Vanguard does have one of the best communities out there, either way you put it the choices are small

    1. Wow play with friend’s game is enjoyable, have to play with pugs game becomes a nightmare with teenies humpping your face with there pvp game

    2. Vanguard is great if you are into PVE, the thing I think people take away from other people comments is that Vanguard player base is such that it does everything it can to prevent the need it now ooo look I killed you crowd at bay. Vanguards player do not want PVP at all they are PVE types myself included. I play UT3 for pvp a real game. As such it seems a little foul for others to come in and demand changes to the game that the current subscriber base doesn’t want. Its even more odd considering the other choices for PVP EVE Lineage 2 WOW and Warhammer, why do people insist on changing a game when so many alternatives already exists for them.

    3. Vanguard needs more players I am on Xeth and its a pretty gellin server, I have had multiple people give me gear help me if they see me in distress and generally the barrens chat is absent of the game unless you provoke it.

    Bottom line you want balanced PVP go to Warhammer or EVE online want PVE come to Vangaurd want everything handed to you for minimal effort play wow. Its that simple



    Funny thing is all of you people who constantly flame Vanguard and its population seems to be people who are not gaming due to there utter boredom with your current game or the rest of you people sitting in your basement trolling forums. Either way a game should be attempted and played for a minimal amount of time.



    For those people who have tech issues simply running the game in balanced mode will make life good for you

    laterz

    WOULD SOMEONE PLEASE TELL ME HOW THE HELL ALANTICA ONLINE HOLDS THE NUMBER 2 SPOT THIS SHOULD TELL EVERYONE SOMETHING THAT THE FOLKS RATING AND SPEAKING ON THESE FORUMS ARE UTTER IDOTS, HOW ELSE WOULD SUCH A TERRIBLE GAME RISE TO THE NUMBER TWO SPOT.  GRRRRRRRRRRERR

  • amimiaamimia La Vista, NEMember UncommonPosts: 73
    Originally posted by Rabenwolf

    Originally posted by Farandir


    heh, people like these come and go. You come here, whine a bit about:
    a. bad community
    b. lack of population
    d. lack of PvP
    d. more or less everything.
     
    And I still say, please do not judge a whole community because of some "vocal members". But you still do, over and over and over again.
    EDIT: "I also want people to come back to the game, even though I am not subscribed atm either. " Remember that line? Your own words, Rabenwolf. A bit odd isn't it that you think the community is bad when you're not even playing the game. Give it a try though, the community might have improved.
    Cheers.

     

    People like me come and go? Typical response from someone who fits my description of the community. You say you are new, yet now you are talking like you have been around. lol. I have played vanguard longer than a "new player"...in fact since day one if you forgot that part. Its not hard to sign up for a month to see the changes, its easy to read them, and you can follow the community via forums. In case you havent realized, we just had over a month of free sub. YES that means I dont have to subscribe again, just load up the client and bam. There goes your assumption and attempt at being clever.

    I think the difference between you and I is that I want the game to succeed and am willing to be honest to people regarding the most of the vocal player base. Maybe your EU server is different, but I have my doubts about that.

    Finally learn to read please, because I keep making it clear... but maybe not clear enough, that there are exceptions. Do you know what that means? You are not acting like you do.



     

    I can see both your points. Being someone that is a Vet to MMO's I really enjoyed VG during beta and at release, I just couldnt get the game to run smooth enough and I had a nice rig. So I moved on thinking maybe I would come back some day. I really liked the crafting system since I came from SWG and was a weaponsmith/armorsmith(not at the same time lol) for 2 yrs. I came to VG because I knew it was a PvE driven game. Its like telling me you want to try LOTRO for the PvP, yes they have it but its not the same as lets say DF or WOW where they have PvP driven content. WOW is just a PVP grind but they have it and goals(armor and weapon). They have always had a PvP server but someone said there isnt that many people on it so that tells me that PvP isnt popular with the game and I hate to say it but communities make the game.

    So I would say DF is more of a game for Rabenwolf and the other person that said they wanted PvP in VG. Im sorry if this sounded bad, I didnt mean it that way. It was just my opinion on what i have read from your replies.

  • DataDayDataDay Los Angeles, CAMember UncommonPosts: 1,458
    Originally posted by amimia

    Originally posted by Rabenwolf

    Originally posted by Farandir


    heh, people like these come and go. You come here, whine a bit about:
    a. bad community
    b. lack of population
    d. lack of PvP
    d. more or less everything.
     
    And I still say, please do not judge a whole community because of some "vocal members". But you still do, over and over and over again.
    EDIT: "I also want people to come back to the game, even though I am not subscribed atm either. " Remember that line? Your own words, Rabenwolf. A bit odd isn't it that you think the community is bad when you're not even playing the game. Give it a try though, the community might have improved.
    Cheers.

     

    People like me come and go? Typical response from someone who fits my description of the community. You say you are new, yet now you are talking like you have been around. lol. I have played vanguard longer than a "new player"...in fact since day one if you forgot that part. Its not hard to sign up for a month to see the changes, its easy to read them, and you can follow the community via forums. In case you havent realized, we just had over a month of free sub. YES that means I dont have to subscribe again, just load up the client and bam. There goes your assumption and attempt at being clever.

    I think the difference between you and I is that I want the game to succeed and am willing to be honest to people regarding the most of the vocal player base. Maybe your EU server is different, but I have my doubts about that.

    Finally learn to read please, because I keep making it clear... but maybe not clear enough, that there are exceptions. Do you know what that means? You are not acting like you do.



     

    I can see both your points. Being someone that is a Vet to MMO's I really enjoyed VG during beta and at release, I just couldnt get the game to run smooth enough and I had a nice rig. So I moved on thinking maybe I would come back some day. I really liked the crafting system since I came from SWG and was a weaponsmith/armorsmith(not at the same time lol) for 2 yrs. I came to VG because I knew it was a PvE driven game. Its like telling me you want to try LOTRO for the PvP, yes they have it but its not the same as lets say DF or WOW where they have PvP driven content. WOW is just a PVP grind but they have it and goals(armor and weapon). They have always had a PvP server but someone said there isnt that many people on it so that tells me that PvP isnt popular with the game and I hate to say it but communities make the game.

    So I would say DF is more of a game for Rabenwolf and the other person that said they wanted PvP in VG. Im sorry if this sounded bad, I didnt mean it that way. It was just my opinion on what i have read from your replies.

     

    A couple points that need touching on... for some reason some people are thinking that you can only have one or the other. Pve or Pvp. Who in their right mind thinks like that? The most popular mmorpgs have been a strong mixture of both. Thats what vanguard is lacking and its due to the community. I tell people to join vanguard so they can offer a voice to oppose this self destructive community, which will keep the game unpopular until its finally shut down by Sony.

    You bring up WoW... why is this game so damn popular? Its because it mixes strong PVE with strong PVP. Both features are solid, it isnt one or the other., its both. PvE and PvP as a whole. Whats better, a one legged man, or a two legged man? If one leg were pve and the other pvp, then that man with two legs can make great leaps and bounds...the one legged man well..he is a cripple. The current vanguard community for the most part wants to be crippled whether they know it or not.

    The typical response from others is to "go play WAR if you want pvp". Thats the worst logic I have ever seen. War is a game thats lacking any depth whatso ever, its pve is horrible and its pvp suffers from a broken system.

    The majority of players enjoy both pvp and pve, its not one or the other but a hybrid of sorts. This is the key to a successful and popular mmorpg.

    So when I see people responding with the typical "go play another game".... I come back to the self defeating community. They should be saying "no, play this game. We need more people, we want to make it bigger, better, more popular."  They would rather tell people to leave than get them to stick around and find some common ground.

    pvp balance can work if stats and skills work different against players than they would against mobs and npcs. Changes do need to be made to the game and thats a sacrifice this self damaging community needs to allow. Instead of them asking for more content in which they can finish in a day or two, why not ask for something that will add player driven content. Instead of asking for wet hair when you get in water...yes they are actually asking for this.... ask for something that will make the game a success. Very few of them are willing to do the right thing in order to get the game to succeed.

  • amimiaamimia La Vista, NEMember UncommonPosts: 73
    Originally posted by Rabenwolf

    Originally posted by amimia

    Originally posted by Rabenwolf

    Originally posted by Farandir


    heh, people like these come and go. You come here, whine a bit about:
    a. bad community
    b. lack of population
    d. lack of PvP
    d. more or less everything.
     
    And I still say, please do not judge a whole community because of some "vocal members". But you still do, over and over and over again.
    EDIT: "I also want people to come back to the game, even though I am not subscribed atm either. " Remember that line? Your own words, Rabenwolf. A bit odd isn't it that you think the community is bad when you're not even playing the game. Give it a try though, the community might have improved.
    Cheers.

     

    People like me come and go? Typical response from someone who fits my description of the community. You say you are new, yet now you are talking like you have been around. lol. I have played vanguard longer than a "new player"...in fact since day one if you forgot that part. Its not hard to sign up for a month to see the changes, its easy to read them, and you can follow the community via forums. In case you havent realized, we just had over a month of free sub. YES that means I dont have to subscribe again, just load up the client and bam. There goes your assumption and attempt at being clever.

    I think the difference between you and I is that I want the game to succeed and am willing to be honest to people regarding the most of the vocal player base. Maybe your EU server is different, but I have my doubts about that.

    Finally learn to read please, because I keep making it clear... but maybe not clear enough, that there are exceptions. Do you know what that means? You are not acting like you do.



     

    I can see both your points. Being someone that is a Vet to MMO's I really enjoyed VG during beta and at release, I just couldnt get the game to run smooth enough and I had a nice rig. So I moved on thinking maybe I would come back some day. I really liked the crafting system since I came from SWG and was a weaponsmith/armorsmith(not at the same time lol) for 2 yrs. I came to VG because I knew it was a PvE driven game. Its like telling me you want to try LOTRO for the PvP, yes they have it but its not the same as lets say DF or WOW where they have PvP driven content. WOW is just a PVP grind but they have it and goals(armor and weapon). They have always had a PvP server but someone said there isnt that many people on it so that tells me that PvP isnt popular with the game and I hate to say it but communities make the game.

    So I would say DF is more of a game for Rabenwolf and the other person that said they wanted PvP in VG. Im sorry if this sounded bad, I didnt mean it that way. It was just my opinion on what i have read from your replies.

     

    A couple points that need touching on... for some reason some people are thinking that you can only have one or the other. Pve or Pvp. Who in their right mind thinks like that? The most popular mmorpgs have been a strong mixture of both. Thats what vanguard is lacking and its due to the community. I tell people to join vanguard so they can offer a voice to oppose this self destructive community, which will keep the game unpopular until its finally shut down by Sony.

    You bring up WoW... why is this game so damn popular? Its because it mixes strong PVE with strong PVP. Both features are solid, it isnt one or the other., its both. PvE and PvP as a whole. Whats better, a one legged man, or a two legged man? If one leg were pve and the other pvp, then that man with two legs can make great leaps and bounds...the one legged man well..he is a cripple. The current vanguard community for the most part wants to be crippled whether they know it or not.

    The typical response from others is to "go play WAR if you want pvp". Thats the worst logic I have ever seen. War is a game thats lacking any depth whatso ever, its pve is horrible and its pvp suffers from a broken system.

    The majority of players enjoy both pvp and pve, its not one or the other but a hybrid of sorts. This is the key to a successful and popular mmorpg.

    So when I see people responding with the typical "go play another game".... I come back to the self defeating community. They should be saying "no, play this game. We need more people, we want to make it bigger, better, more popular."  They would rather tell people to leave than get them to stick around and find some common ground.

    pvp balance can work if stats and skills work different against players than they would against mobs and npcs. Changes do need to be made to the game and thats a sacrifice this self damaging community needs to allow. Instead of them asking for more content in which they can finish in a day or two, why not ask for something that will add player driven content. Instead of asking for wet hair when you get in water...yes they are actually asking for this.... ask for something that will make the game a success. Very few of them are willing to do the right thing in order to get the game to succeed.



     

    The funny thing is not everyone likes PvP. Its almost like you want to stuff it down peoples throat. There is so many games available to play. I dont understand why you are so worried about VG not having PvP. You are looking only at 1 thing about the game. You dont see the VG community going into EVE and saying " if you made the game more PvE, then I would consider playing again but since the community is so driven on killing other players and looting them to make money, its just not what the MMO community wants.

    I do understand that you wish the community would want to make the game more balanced for both sides but you also have to take in consideration that since the game launched they did not get a ton of backing from SOE. So I think they are doing the best that they can with what they have. The Community is happy and I have to give them props for that since if you look at what happen to SWG, they lost clients b/c they didnt listen to their community. I was a SWG Vet and wish they would have listened but they wanted the big bucks and made a poor business move.

  • BroomyBroomy New York, NYMember UncommonPosts: 486
    Originally posted by Rabenwolf


    So when I see people responding with the typical "go play another game".... I come back to the self defeating community. They should be saying "no, play this game. We need more people, we want to make it bigger, better, more popular."  They would rather tell people to leave than get them to stick around and find some common ground.



     

    To breifly address your above point, I had similar experiences with the VG game community when I lit up the trial last week.  I played VG at launch and gave up due to the piss-poor performance and other horrendous issues.  I gave another look last week after hearing some acolades here on these forums.  Whenever I asked a question in chat that had anything to do with the games performance I was immediately told to "go back to WOW".  Nasty attitudes abounded.  Attitudes no doubt  formed from sticking with a broken game for so long that nothing but utter, borderline obsessive, devotion would make a player stay.  The one sarcastic line I remember when I asked if anyone was exeriencing lag  was to "/uninstall".  So I did.

     

    I also petitioned SOE for a full refund for the month I paid...and I got it.  They know the game still has major issues.  The sad part is I began experiencing the SAME issues I did at launch with the game.   

    Done with this pos for good. 

    Current Games: SWTOR, EVE Online

  • FarandirFarandir OsloMember Posts: 111

    Someone please give Broomy a tissue...

  • DataDayDataDay Los Angeles, CAMember UncommonPosts: 1,458
    Originally posted by Farandir


    Someone please give Broomy a tissue...

     

    ^ typical response, this is why many dislike the community you represent.  You and the rest like you, elitist snobs, will keep Vanguard down as a mmorpg. Good job kid.

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